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finnbow
03-14-2010, 10:20 AM
This just in. (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/03/14/us/politics/AP-US-Pentagon-Metro-Shooting-Guns.html?_r=1) Two guns used in high-profile shootings this year at the Pentagon and a Las Vegas courthouse both came from the same unlikely place: the police and court system of Memphis, Tenn.

I'm a gun owner and avid shooter/hunter, but this is screwy.:confused:

JJIII
03-14-2010, 10:40 AM
IMO pure coincidence. If the two shooters had not bought those two guns they would have bought two other guns. The fact that those two guns were once in police custody is irrelevant. The police could have destroyed them but they saved taxpayers some money by selling/trading them. If you consider the total number of guns for sale at any given time I doubt the percentage of guns that were once held by police departments is significant.

merrylander
03-14-2010, 10:58 AM
The Post today reported that a bunch of guns disappeared from the Prince George's county police storage.

JJIII
03-14-2010, 11:10 AM
The Post today reported that a bunch of guns disappeared from the Prince George's county police storage.

That's not good.:(

finnbow
03-14-2010, 11:21 AM
IMO pure coincidence. If the two shooters had not bought those two guns they would have bought two other guns. The fact that those two guns were once in police custody is irrelevant. The police could have destroyed them but they saved taxpayers some money by selling/trading them. If you consider the total number of guns for sale at any given time I doubt the percentage of guns that were once held by police departments is significant.

I understand your point and part of me thinks similarly. OTOH, the irony of the police being the ultimate source of these guns is pretty rich. If the police themselves cannot control the flow of guns over which they have (had) control, can anybody? This story seems to highlight the problems inherent to the "gun show loophole."

Boreas
03-14-2010, 11:29 AM
I understand your point and part of me thinks similarly. OTOH, the irony of the police being the ultimate source of these guns is pretty rich. If the police themselves cannot control the flow of guns over which they have (had) control, can anybody? This story seems to highlight the problems inherent to the "gun show loophole."

The first thing that popped into my head was "Oathkeepers" but when I read the story I couldn't see a likely connection. Still, my radar is pinging away on this.

The thing I find really troubling about this is the report that some states require police departments to sell all working firearms they seize. It seems to me that this should be entirely discretionary. Individual departments should be able to make their own decisions in this regard.

John

Sandy G
03-14-2010, 12:06 PM
Been to a couple of "Gun Sales" the cops had of confiscated weapons down here-And altho the cop that told me about it was VERY proud of the guns they sold, to me they were nothing but "Ash 'n' trash" "Sat'day Nite Specials"-Stuff I wouldn't give a second look to. The one interesting piece at one of 'em was a stainless Ruger Redhawk 44 Magnum, & it looked like it had resided all its life in the floorboards of a sewage treatment truck, & the inside of the barrel looked like a lead pipe. It went for $400, almost what a NEW one w/o the "Issues" woulda gone for. Seems like they had a couple SKS rifles, but they were the uber-cheapshit Chinese clones that aren't reliable. I guess somebody coulda bought guns there for Evil Intent, but pretty much all of us knew each other, & therefore, I kinda doubt it...

Charles
03-14-2010, 12:17 PM
I understand your point and part of me thinks similarly. OTOH, the irony of the police being the ultimate source of these guns is pretty rich. If the police themselves cannot control the flow of guns over which they have (had) control, can anybody? This story seems to highlight the problems inherent to the "gun show loophole."

I remember years ago when I got Shotgun News they were always selling guns obtained from police departments, most of the time their old duty weapons once they were upgraded. The best I remember, they were first auctioned off to wholesalers like RSI who in turn sold them to licensed dealers. Who in turn sold them to people who could pass a background check and obtain the necessary paperwork.

My wife's M60 S&W is an old MSHP backup piece with the officer's badge number still engraved on it. It's a dandy little revolver.

Chas

Charles
03-14-2010, 12:25 PM
The first thing that popped into my head was "Oathkeepers" but when I read the story I couldn't see a likely connection. Still, my radar is pinging away on this.

The thing I find really troubling about this is the report that some states require police departments to sell all working firearms they seize. It seems to me that this should be entirely discretionary. Individual departments should be able to make their own decisions in this regard.

John

I think your first paragraph has stated your political position on matters quite well.

But don't give up, I'm sure you will find SOMETHING to discredit them with.

Chas

finnbow
03-14-2010, 02:03 PM
I remember years ago when I got Shotgun News they were always selling guns obtained from police departments, most of the time their old duty weapons once they were upgraded. The best I remember, they were first auctioned off to wholesalers like RSI who in turn sold them to licensed dealers. Who in turn sold them to people who could pass a background check and obtain the necessary paperwork.

My wife's M60 S&W is an old MSHP backup piece with the officer's badge number still engraved on it. It's a dandy little revolver.

Chas

Here in the Peoples Republic of Montgomery County, the police upgraded to Glock's chamber in 40 S&W. The powers that be went into a real tizzy trying to figure out what to do with their old sidearms. I think they end up trashing 'em. (9mm Beretta) :eek:

The newest wrinkle (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/13/AR2010031302049.html) in the saga of the MoCo Police and their sidearms is that police officers are enrolling in a course (at inflated prices and at County expense) which entitles them to buy a Glock for $99. They're turning around and selling the pistols at market value (~$500).

BlueStreak
03-14-2010, 02:46 PM
I think your first paragraph has stated your political position on matters quite well.

But don't give up, I'm sure you will find SOMETHING to discredit them with.

Chas

You don't think a cop joining an organization that requires him/her to take an oath that is contrary to the oath they took when they joined the force is enough to discredit them?

I do. I think it's downright seditious and ANY officer who joins "OathKeepers" should be FIRED.

I also think that any member of the military who joins "Oathkeepers", should be considered mutinous and insubordinate, court marshalled and given a "Dishonorable Discharge".

FUCK the "Oathkeepers"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously,
Dave

Charles
03-14-2010, 03:47 PM
I thought the "Oath" the OathKeepers took was an oath to follow the "Oath" that they took in they first place. I suppose this would place them squarely in Sandy's "Dep't of Redundancy Dep't".

But I'm not a member, don't know any, and don't follow them, so I may be speaking out of school.

Chas

Charles
03-14-2010, 03:50 PM
Here in the Peoples Republic of Montgomery County, the police upgraded to Glock's chamber in 40 S&W. The powers that be went into a real tizzy trying to figure out what to do with their old sidearms. I think they end up trashing 'em. (9mm Beretta) :eek:

The newest wrinkle (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/13/AR2010031302049.html) in the saga of the MoCo Police and their sidearms is that police officers are enrolling in a course (at inflated prices and at County expense) which entitles them to buy a Glock for $99. They're turning around and selling the pistols at market value (~$500).

I believe this is a "perk" that I would eliminate.

Chas

d-ray657
03-14-2010, 04:40 PM
I thought the "Oath" the OathKeepers took was an oath to follow the "Oath" that they took in they first place. I suppose this would place them squarely in Sandy's "Dep't of Redundancy Dep't".

But I'm not a member, don't know any, and don't follow them, so I may be speaking out of school.

Chas

The Constitution as their unelected leaders interpret it. Here is their website. They do appear to be well-funded.

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/

Regards,

D-Ray

Charles
03-14-2010, 04:59 PM
The Constitution as their unelected leaders interpret it. Here is their website. They do appear to be well-funded.

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/

Regards,

D-Ray

They do appear to be a little over the top, don't you think?

Chas

d-ray657
03-14-2010, 05:27 PM
They do appear to be a little over the top, don't you think?

Chas

It's one thing for an individual in the military to make a personal statement of conscience, and accept the consequences of his stand. It's quite another thing to take an oath to accept the definition of an illegal order from an organization with an obvious agenda. In that case, the individual is swearing loyalty to an organization other than that to which he belongs. Not only has he stated his unwillingness to accept the consequences of disobeying an order, but also his willingness to take up arms against the service to which he originally pledged his loyalty.

I lean toward Dave's suggestion that this type of conduct should result in discharge from the service. (I expect, however, that some damn lawyers have helped them draft the promises they make to the oathkeepers in such a way that it doesn't fall outside of the code of military conduct - something about which I could not competently render a legal opinion.)

If the organization to which these military and quasi-military personnel were making promises was as far to the left as these guys are to the right, I'm sure there would be plenty of people ready to call it communist sedition.

What would be the oathkeepers' response if, for example, California were to say, "Screw it, we've had enough of this dirty capitalist system. We want out of the US so that we can set our economy up for each according to his need and from each according to his ability." Would they support the sovereign right of that state to succeed?

Regards,

D-Ray

Charles
03-14-2010, 05:41 PM
Damn lawyers, always mucking things up!!!

Chas

Boreas
03-14-2010, 10:50 PM
I thought the "Oath" the OathKeepers took was an oath to follow the "Oath" that they took in they first place. I suppose this would place them squarely in Sandy's "Dep't of Redundancy Dep't".

But I'm not a member, don't know any, and don't follow them, so I may be speaking out of school.

Chas

Check them out, Chas. You may learn something. I don't really mind the mildly insulting tone of your reply to me but I do have a little problem with uninformed criticism.

John

Charles
03-15-2010, 06:58 AM
Check them out, Chas. You may learn something. I don't really mind the mildly insulting tone of your reply to me but I do have a little problem with uninformed criticism.

John

Well, whenever anything happens you appear to proceed on the premise that it is somehow the result of the right wing, and if you discover that it wasn't, you will continue to look for a way to make the link. You said as much yourself.

I have no problem with blaming someone for what they have done, but in this case the Oath Keepers were as pure as the driven snow. My peripheral knowledge of them in no way detracts from my original statement, IMHO.

Having viewed their information via a link from the esteemed D-Man, I have come to the conclusion that they do appear to be a bit over the top, as I stated earlier. But, in their defense, they only seem to be reaffirming their original oath, and vow to take the necessary steps, within the law, as to not obey an Unconstitutional Order, which is also their duty. They apparently do not want to rely on the Good German Defense.

All of the rabble rousing aside, I have no problem with this, at least in theory.

And my apologies for the mildly insulting tone that I did take earlier.

Chas

d-ray657
03-15-2010, 08:01 AM
Think the oathkeepers have the sense to use something other than brown shirts for their uniform?

Regards,

D-Ray

Charles
03-15-2010, 08:17 AM
Think the oathkeepers have the sense to use something other than brown shirts for their uniform?

Regards,

D-Ray

Just rechecked their website to see if I'd missed something.

Nary a brown shirt, or even a white hood.

Thanks for the link, D-Man. Being more knowledgeable about their position will better enable me to defend their cause.

You're a good man, Charlie Brown,

Chas

d-ray657
03-15-2010, 08:22 AM
Just rechecked their website to see if I'd missed something.

Nary a brown shirt, or even a white hood.

Thanks for the link, D-Man. Being more knowledgeable about their position will better enable me to defend their cause.

You're a good man, Charlie Brown,

Chas

You know what, Sir Charles? I'm beginning to think you get a kick out of being cantankerous. ;)

Regards,

D-ray

merrylander
03-15-2010, 08:31 AM
I wonder how so called "No knock warrants" fit in the scheme of things they won't do?
They break down your doors and won't repair them if they find nothing (oops, there goes the Fourth Amendment). Even if they do or do not find anything they won't tell you who accused you (Oh dear, just pissed on the Sixth Amendment). But then they usually bring enough drugs with them so they always find something, except in the case where they shot the old lady because they screwed up the address.

Charles
03-15-2010, 08:35 AM
You know what, Sir Charles? I'm beginning to think you get a kick out of being cantankerous. ;)

Regards,

D-ray

Thank you, my friend, you may be on to something.

As I feel surrounded by liberals, I have taken it on myself to advance the conservative, and even the VRWC colors. I only wish that a good VRWC barrister would join this forum as to relieve me of some of my duties.

But they're all busy helping the multinationals screw the little guy, doncha know?

Chas

merrylander
03-15-2010, 08:42 AM
Really? So what exactly have the Republicans conserved of late, seems to me they threw the baby out with the bathwater.

d-ray657
03-15-2010, 09:03 AM
Thank you, my friend, you may be on to something.

As I feel surrounded by liberals, I have it on myself to advance the conservative, and even the VRWC colors. I only wish that a good VRWC barrister would join this forum as to relieve me of some of my duties.

But they're all busy helping the multinationals screw the little guy, doncha know?

Chas

They're easier to find than lefties. You don't find any little guys willing or able to pay 300 to 500 per hour - and you damn sure don't find any unions paying that rate.

My wife likes to say that "Where you heart goes, your treasure will follow." In today's world, it's more like "Where the treasure flows, your heart will follow."

Regards,

D-Ray

Charles
03-15-2010, 09:04 AM
I wonder how so called "No knock warrants" fit in the scheme of things they won't do?
They break down your doors and won't repair them if they find nothing (oops, there goes the Fourth Amendment). Even if they do or do not find anything they won't tell you who accused you (Oh dear, just pissed on the Sixth Amendment). But then they usually bring enough drugs with them so they always find something, except in the case where they shot the old lady because they screwed up the address.

While there is probably a time and place for a No Knock, they have unfortunately become SOP for a lot of police departments. Much like asset forfeiture, which is nothing more than legalized theft.

I would think that the OK's would be opposed to them. I certainly am, in all but the rarest of cases.

Chas

merrylander
03-15-2010, 09:37 AM
Well I am opposed to them in ALL cases as there is no justification for even one of the innocent people killed.

Boreas
03-15-2010, 10:16 AM
Well, whenever anything happens you appear to proceed on the premise that it is somehow the result of the right wing,

Leaving out the present example (because it isn't one), I don't think you can point to anything I've laid at the feet of the right wing that didn't deserve to be there.

and if you discover that it wasn't, you will continue to look for a way to make the link. You said as much yourself.

Actually, I didn't. It would be way too right wing of me to continue to look for a link even thought I'd concluded one didn't exist. :)

John

merrylander
03-15-2010, 11:35 AM
The one the Pentagon shooter was traced to Tennessee, police had it from some crime and the sold it to a dealer who sold it at a gun show, where they don't care if you are a babbling maniac as long as you have the money.

Twodogs
03-15-2010, 03:33 PM
I think if you get shot, you don't much care about the gun's history.:rolleyes:

Boreas
03-15-2010, 03:39 PM
I think if you get shot, you don't much care about the gun's history.:rolleyes:

If I get shot by a guy who's been judged to be too unstable to own a gun with a gun that shouldn't be on the market, you're damned right I'm gonna care (assuming I live).

John

d-ray657
03-15-2010, 07:57 PM
Thank you, my friend, you may be on to something.

As I feel surrounded by liberals, I have taken it on myself to advance the conservative, and even the VRWC colors. I only wish that a good VRWC barrister would join this forum as to relieve me of some of my duties.

But they're all busy helping the multinationals screw the little guy, doncha know?

Chas

Why am I not surprised to read in the paper today that Missouri is a leading supplier of goats. :D

Regards,

D-Ray

Charles
03-15-2010, 10:56 PM
Why am I not surprised to read in the paper today that Missouri is a leading supplier of goats. :D

Regards,

D-Ray

That's just the way we are down here. As a matter of fact, I think I may have gotten yours in a different thread.

Would you like him back?

Chas

d-ray657
03-16-2010, 01:42 AM
That's just the way we are down here. As a matter of fact, I think I may have gotten yours in a different thread.

Would you like him back?

Chas

Nah, I enjoy the challenge. You're so dang calm cool and collected in your posts. It's almost like you're doing an Obama impersonation.:D

When you start hitting me with specifics, you make me work. I'm kinda spoiled, because that's what I expect.

Regards,

D-Ray

Charles
03-16-2010, 06:41 AM
Nah, I enjoy the challenge. You're so dang calm cool and collected in your posts. It's almost like you're doing an Obama impersonation.:D

When you start hitting me with specifics, you make me work. I'm kinda spoiled, because that's what I expect.

Regards,

D-Ray

The big difference between Obama and myself is that I tilt my chin down.

Has more to do with seeing over the top of my cheaters than anything else. Besides, it makes me look so kewl, kinda like Chainey!!!

Take care,

Chas