Slippery Slope: City Lighting

[ebacon]

As a patent attorney I have the luxury of getting paid to read stories of how we got where we are when it comes to inventions. Every patent begins with a story of the shortcoming of the state of the art and why we need to ooch further down the slippery slope. The funny thing is that looking back at all of those stories and how many patents add up to nothing I realized that the slope is not slippery at all. We spend a lot of money and effort persuading each other to do things that we do not really want for ourselves. So why do we suggestive sell those things to our neighbors?

Take city lighting for instance. The common story is that we need more lighting at night because light makes us safe. For example light reveals burglars hiding in our shrubbery and all that.

But do we really want the light? Of course not. If we did then we would think the ideal building spot is in the middle of the city WHERE ALL OF THE LIGHTS ARE. But when we think of building a new home we never think of going to the brightest spot. Instead we think of going to the warmly lit spot.

What is a warmly lit spot? Urban dwellers that want to stay in the city might seek a warmly lit spot near an observatory. The Cranbrook Observatory comes to mind. Who in southeast Michigan would not want to live near Cranbrook? And why? Because it is bright? No. Because it is dark at night.

For the rednecks, as much as we like to work and build stuff such as lighting fixtures, do we really want more of them? I do not recall ever searching for the best lit campground.

The political fight is in the redneck camp. We need to learn to settle down. Take for example the following patent: US 8,541,949, Donners. It discusses the problem with too much lighting for nocturnal animals and teaches an invention that adjust the lights for them. It reminds me of when Rush Limbaugh made fun of lights and turtles.

We have reached a convergence. Rednecks want less light. Animals want less light. Urban dwellers want warm light.

So why do so many of us get sucked into the narrative that we need more lights? If you want more lights, why?

[nailer]

Based on the years of walking the neighborhood I'd say most of my neighbors have not bought into the need more lights marketing strategy. However the more lights group appears to be two markets: decorative and deterrence. The decorative lighting gang primarily lives in rebuilds and appears larger that the safety conscience. A significant number of more lights houses are in both subgroups. I like it dark at night.

[donquixote99]

As a patent attorney I have the luxury of getting paid to read stories of how we got where we are when it comes to inventions. Every patent begins with a story of the shortcoming of the state of the art and why we need to ooch further down the slippery slope. The funny thing is that looking back at all of those stories and how many patents add up to nothing I realized that the slope is not slippery at all. We spend a lot of money and effort persuading each other to do things that we do not really want for ourselves. So why do we suggestive sell those things to our neighbors?

Take city lighting for instance. The common story is that we need more lighting at night because light makes us safe. For example light reveals burglars hiding in our shrubbery and all that.

But do we really want the light? Of course not. If we did then we would think the ideal building spot is in the middle of the city WHERE ALL OF THE LIGHTS ARE. But when we think of building a new home we never think of going to the brightest spot. Instead we think of going to the warmly lit spot.

What is a warmly lit spot? Urban dwellers that want to stay in the city might seek a warmly lit spot near an observatory. The Cranbrook Observatory comes to mind. Who in southeast Michigan would not want to live near Cranbrook? And why? Because it is bright? No. Because it is dark at night.

For the rednecks, as much as we like to work and build stuff such as lighting fixtures, do we really want more of them? I do not recall ever searching for the best lit campground.

The political fight is in the redneck camp. We need to learn to settle down. Take for example the following patent: US 8,541,949, Donners. It discusses the problem with too much lighting for nocturnal animals and teaches an invention that adjust the lights for them. It reminds me of when Rush Limbaugh made fun of lights and turtles.

We have reached a convergence. Rednecks want less light. Animals want less light. Urban dwellers want warm light.

So why do so many of us get sucked into the narrative that we need more lights? If you want more lights, why?

I like to see more than the headlights show when driving around town. But once I'm in for the night, shut them all off.

[BlueStreak]

As an amateur astronomer and budding astrophotographer who lives in the city.......... I'd like to snuff every damned street and security light I see. You want to see at night get some night vision goggles. The owls and I have had it with your flood light shit.

[MrPots]

When we were searching for a home we drove to the house at night to see if it was lit up by streetlights. If it was we crossed it off our list.

Folks who sell street lights tend to also sell fear., a despicable commodity.

[BlueStreak]

When we were searching for a home we drove to the house at night to see if it was lit up by streetlights. If it was we crossed it off our list.

Folks who sell street lights tend to also sell fear., a despicable commodity.

So, it's another Republican plot, then?:p

[MrPots]

I'm not certain republicans have the mental capacity to "plot" any more. I'm thinking they just bumble along these days....

[barbara]

We live on a busy corner with lots of street lights that light up the house at night.

I love it.

I don't sleep well at night and can be busy in the house without turning on a bunch of lights and waking others.

Also.... There is a safety factor. I'm confident that if we weren't home, the burglar would pass on our house. (Not that we have anything worth breaking in for)

[Oerets]

Power companies behind convincing those who fear the dark something is there?



Barney

[HarmanKardon]

The new LED street light the relevant assholes of my town have installed in front of my house about eight weeks ago is so FUCKING bright that I almost need sunglasses at night when I look outside. A nightmare. A damned nightmare. And this light is as ugly cold white as the light in a morgue. My entire front garden looks at night as if it was covered by a winding sheet.

[mpholland]

I feel pretty safe with no lights. Living at the end of a gravel cul-de-sac 12 miles northwest of a town of 1250 people, if we get burglarized I can pretty much figure it wasn't random. We have motion lights outside for our convenience. Animals are much more likely to trip them than a burglar.
I think we might need to invest in a couple motion nightlights though. When we lived in the Portland area,i f I wanted to go to the bathroom or get a glass of water in the middle of the night there was plenty of light filtering in from outside that I never had to turn a light on. Now that we are in central Oregon I am good for a couple trips or bruises if I get out of bed in the middle of the night. I suppose that could just be construed as another form of safety though.

[Boreas]

http://blogs.plos.org/citizensci/files/2013/05/NASA-scistarter-plos-at-night.jpg

[HarmanKardon]

I am living is a small town with about 5600 people, but even here the light pollution is so immense that it never gets really dark at night anymore. It makes me sick.

[barbara]

I feel pretty safe with no lights. Living at the end of a gravel cul-de-sac 12 miles northwest of a town of 1250 people, if we get burglarized I can pretty much figure it wasn't random. We have motion lights outside for our convenience. Animals are much more likely to trip them than a burglar.
I think we might need to invest in a couple motion nightlights though. When we lived in the Portland area,i f I wanted to go to the bathroom or get a glass of water in the middle of the night there was plenty of light filtering in from outside that I never had to turn a light on. Now that we are in central Oregon I am good for a couple trips or bruises if I get out of bed in the middle of the night. I suppose that could just be construed as another form of safety though.



We used to live in the country.... Outside a small town.... Coyotes and jack rabbits the biggest problem.

Then one day two guys came to the door, postal whipped husband and stun gunned him. Killed our German Shepard and Dalmatian and robbed the house.

By the way.... The weapon we had safely stored was no deterrent.

[donquixote99]

I'm not certain republicans have the mental capacity to "plot" any more. I'm thinking they just bumble along these days....

That's a dangerous thought. While there's plenty of bumbling in evidence, there is still practically endless money and talent available for 'operations.' Remember who 'swift-boated' Kerry?

[donquixote99]

We used to live in the country.... Outside a small town.... Coyotes and jack rabbits the biggest problem.

Then one day two guys came to the door, postal whipped husband and stun gunned him. Killed our German Shepard and Dalmatian and robbed the house.

By the way.... The weapon we had safely stored was no deterrent.

Security is an issue for isolated places that are nonetheless in easy driving distance of population centers. Places out of even remote view to neighbors or traffic on the road in particular.

[mpholland]

We used to live in the country.... Outside a small town.... Coyotes and jack rabbits the biggest problem.

Then one day two guys came to the door, postal whipped husband and stun gunned him. Killed our German Shepard and Dalmatian and robbed the house.

By the way.... The weapon we had safely stored was no deterrent.

Not saying it couldn't happen, just feel my odds are better here than when I lived in Portland. My sister has 100 acres up in NE Washington with a house pretty much right in the middle. They are also about 10 miles out of town. They got robbed a couple years ago. Nobody is 100% safe anywhere. Living in fear of it would be like living in fear of a lightning strike though. In Portland I actually worried about leaving my wife at home when I left for work at 4am.

[barbara]

Not saying it couldn't happen, just feel my odds are better here than when I lived in Portland. My sister has 100 acres up in NE Washington with a house pretty much right in the middle. They are also about 10 miles out of town. They got robbed a couple years ago. Nobody is 100% safe anywhere. Living in fear of it would be like living in fear of a lightning strike though. In Portland I actually worried about leaving my wife at home when I left for work at 4am.



I hear what you are saying and you are quite right.
No one is ever 100% safe.

I don't live in fear but am aware of my situation and surroundings.

[JJIII]

We used to live in the country.... Outside a small town.... Coyotes and jack rabbits the biggest problem.

Then one day two guys came to the door, postal whipped husband and stun gunned him. Killed our German Shepard and Dalmatian and robbed the house.

By the way.... The weapon we had safely stored was no deterrent.

What would have happened IF the weapon had been at hand?

Did either of the dogs alert you that strangers were coming?

[mpholland]

I do have several neighbors in close proximity. I rely on them for safety more than my weapons.

[barbara]

What would have happened IF the weapon had been at hand?



Not sure.


But, karma can be wicked.

They caught one of the perpetrators and justice gave him a slap on the hand and told him to be a good boy. Within a month he overdosed and died.

[JJIII]

Not sure.


But, karma can be wicked.

They caught one of the perpetrators and justice gave him a slap on the hand and told him to be a good boy. Within a month he overdosed and died.

There ya go! Good for karma.

[JJIII]

I do have several neighbors in close proximity. I rely on them for safety more than my weapons.

How long would it take for you neighbors to get there in the wee, small hours of the morning?


(A tip of the hat to Mr. Sinatra.):D

[noonereal]

I do have several neighbors in close proximity. I rely on them for safety more than my weapons.

seems wise given the data

[HarmanKardon]

Just realized what this thread is about. It is about crime, not about aesthetics or whatever else. Sorry.

[Pio1980]

They can be related here as an unappealing choice.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[mpholland]

How long would it take for you neighbors to get there in the wee, small hours of the morning?


(A tip of the hat to Mr. Sinatra.):D

It wouldn't take them very long, but that wasn't the point. The neighborhood looks out for one another here. That is a better deterrent. I still have plenty of guns if they were ever necessary.

[JJIII]

It wouldn't take them very long, but that wasn't the point. The neighborhood looks out for one another here. That is a better deterrent. I still have plenty of guns if they were ever necessary.

Ask Barbara how long it took for two strangers to do what they did.

All I'm saying is a person needs to be able to look out for themselves.

[noonereal]

All I'm saying is a person needs to be able to look out for themselves.

I agree John. I don't think owning a gun and looking out for oneself is compulsory though. In fact, I think it unwise... most times. Not all.

The odds are farrrrrrrr greater that your gun will induce harm when not wanted than in the service of protecting you and yours. For this reason, I choose not to think of a gun as protection.

That said, I do have guns.

[MrPots]

The new LED street light the relevant assholes of my town have installed in front of my house about eight weeks ago is so FUCKING bright that I almost need sunglasses at night when I look outside. A nightmare. A damned nightmare. And this light is as ugly cold white as the light in a morgue. My entire front garden looks at night as if it was covered by a winding sheet.

I hate that shit man. There is no excuse for the ugly harsh lights. All they do is bring down the neighborhood.

That said I live about 2 miles outside of a town of about 6500 people. It's in the country but there are lots of homes nestled among the farms. Just a few lights though...we have a beautiful view of the stars. It's very dark here. But I feel safe. Where I am, anyone who is not supposed to be here would be noticed immediately.

[toxcrusadr]

The new LED street light the relevant assholes of my town have installed in front of my house about eight weeks ago is so FUCKING bright that I almost need sunglasses at night when I look outside. A nightmare. A damned nightmare. And this light is as ugly cold white as the light in a morgue. My entire front garden looks at night as if it was covered by a winding sheet.

Didn't read the whole thread but this was so true last fall at our house. Street lights were the old orange sodium vapor. Every time one goes out they replace it with LED. It lit up the front living room from across the street! I complained...to their credit they came back out. 2 things happening: 1) it was aimed way too high throwing light across the street. They reaimed it. And 2) they agreed it was way too bright and disabled half of it! Fortunately I got my city councilman involved and I think he was going to follow up on it and advocate for sensible lighting levels in the city.

As for the thread topic...I also have a place in the country where my shop is. A couple thoughts: Do city/suburban people actually know how damn DARK it is with no lights? I mean you can't see your feet some nights. Now, I have two dusk to dawn lights (essentially street lights on poles, with light sensors). I'm kind of happy to have them EXCEPT when I want to sit out on the shop patio and watch stars. They have no switches and the poco will not provide switches.

[Wasillaguy]

For years when we first bought our place in Wasilla I commuted to work in Anchorage across a wide marshy valley known as "the hay flats". It was very dark and the view of stars and northern lights was spectacular.
Unfortunately, this stretch was notorious for moose collisions, and eventually they put in lights to reduce the risk. It was the right thing to do, but ruined the show.
We don't have a very good view from the house, street light just a couple doors down and hill/trees to the north blocking the prime aurora sky.
When they're predicting the activity will be good, we now sometimes drive up the pass 10 or 15 miles to get the pitch black environment for optimum color effects.

[merrylander]

We have a modest post light in front of the house more as a conenience to our neighbors as there are no street lights here. For the burglars we have motion operation 300 watt halogens.

So far no one has bitched about the post light.

[toxcrusadr]

Perhaps some time in the future we will begin to have 'smart lighting' that lights when it needs to and lights less or not at all when it's not needed. I can certainly agree with the idea of questioning what we have always assumed about city lighting. As well as using new technology to make it more adaptable to our needs. ALL of our needs.

[ebacon]

We have a modest post light in front of the house more as a conenience to our neighbors as there are no street lights here. For the burglars we have motion operation 300 watt halogens.

So far no one has bitched about the post light.

Has anyone bitched about the 300W burglar halogens? :D Automatic lights piss me off as I walk at night. It reminds me of being watched. The equivalent sensation from Germany was seeing curtains swing as I walked by. The bastards are watching me.

But those emotions and memories are not why I write tonight. Instead I write because I ran across a thread on an astrophotography board that reminded me of this thread. Here it is:

http://www.cloudynights.com/topic/557829-cant-catch-a-break/#entry7555146

In a nutshell, one photographer was making progress on an image that takes several nights to complete. During that time someone erected a swinging searchlight type of advertising in his field of view. The photographer felt dejected.

A second photographer came to his aid and explained that statistics and optical filters can probably ignore the swinging searchlights.

Somewhere between the emotions of those two photographers is where I feel about city lighting. Their emotions are as real as the light. No?

[merrylander]

Has anyone bitched about the 300W burglar halogens? :D Automatic lights piss me off as I walk at night. It reminds me of being watched. The equivalent sensation from Germany was seeing curtains swing as I walked by. The bastards are watching me.



Since they would have to be trespassing in my backyard to switch them on I don't think they will be bitching.

[ebacon]

Since they would have to be trespassing in my backyard to switch them on I don't think they will be bitching.

Interesting point. Would you entertain a thought experiment?

I do not know how your back yard is laid out, but I visualize it as a typical North American yard that extends at least fifty feet from the back of the house. Suppose your local government wanted to create a walkable neighborhood. In the process they drew up a quick plan that showed a footpath through your property that is a reasonable distance from your house, say at least fifty feet.

Assuming that you said OK to the plan and granted an easement, would you still feel a need for automatic security lighting in the back yard? If so, why?

[merrylander]

Interesting point. Would you entertain a thought experiment?

I do not know how your back yard is laid out, but I visualize it as a typical North American yard that extends at least fifty feet from the back of the house. Suppose your local government wanted to create a walkable neighborhood. In the process they drew up a quick plan that showed a footpath through your property that is a reasonable distance from your house, say at least fifty feet.

Assuming that you said OK to the plan and granted an easement, would you still feel a need for automatic security lighting in the back yard? If so, why?

That's my backyard and it joins similar 'backyards' so the local government would have a job on their hand to create a walkable path. What you see is the cleared part, there is another acre of woods, complete with a small creek.

So they would be well away from the house and I doubt many would be walking it after dark. We had a resident bobcat for a while and it was quite large. There is the odd skunk out and about at night. They tend to leave their aroma on the air well into the next day.:)

[ebacon]

That's my backyard and it joins similar 'backyards' so the local government would have a job on their hand to create a walkable path. What you see is the cleared part, there is another acre of woods, complete with a small creek.

So they would be well away from the house and I doubt many would be walking it after dark. We had a resident bobcat for a while and it was quite large. There is the odd skunk out and about at night. They tend to leave their aroma on the air well into the next day.:)

Understood. That's about what my property looks like. The primary difference is that my property has a footpath easement (Paint Creek Trail) along the rear lot line. The footpath is sees fairly heavy use particularly on the weekends.

When I bought the property I looked forward to seeing and hearing pedestrians and bicyclists. It is a soothing sort of traffic sound. Like you, I also have a big honking light in the back, but it is on a manual switch. The automatic lights are buzzkills for me.

As you noted, the trail sees little use after dark. Once or twice a year there might be some loud teenagers walking home from a bar crawl, but that's about it. At least they are not driving. The trail users have never caused me a problem. I have only enjoyed their presence.

At the moment another local community is trying to establish a walking trail. It is interesting to read about residents' fears in the newspaper reports of planning meetings. Calming peoples' fears is a tough job. That's politics I guess.

[merrylander]

Got up in the middle of the night last night and I saw a dim sort of light flash on the bathroom wall. Looked out the window and there is a tall tower (Radio, TV?) south of us about ten or so miles. It used to have blinking red lights on the top, now some idiot has installed a extremely bright flash lamp that blinks every 2 seconds. Folks nearer to it must love it, probably some brilliant idea from the FAA.

[donquixote99]

Have you ever heard of an accident involving a plane hitting a tall antenna? I do not recall such.

[catswiththum]

Have you ever heard of an accident involving a plane hitting a tall antenna? I do not recall such.

Not overly common, but it happens.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-christopher-hall-arrested-melbourne-plane-crash-20150528-story.html

http://articles.latimes.com/2004/dec/21/local/me-tower21

[donquixote99]

OK, and thanks for the examples.

Still would like a re-look at the cost-benefit. The cost in envronmental degradation is 'diffuse,' but widespread and constant, and gets rather sharp close to such a powerful strobe.