To the curb, woman!!

[piece-itpete]

You used to be a darling, now you're just an embarrassment.

http://bsnorrell.blogspot.com/2010/03/jailing-cindy-sheehan.html

Pete

[Sandy G]

She's about a wingnut...Almost every time I've seen cops & demonstrators clash in cases like this, the cops will give the demonstrators AMPLE time/warning to disperse, or tell 'em to NOT cross such & such a line. THEY have much more to lose than SHE does-the hassle, the media recriminations, endless paperwork & investigations, yada, yada, yada. Mother Sheehan, I'm SURE, didn't provoke the cops at all & followed ALL their instructions to the letter...Yeah, riiiiiiiight...Maybe they just finally got tired of putting up w/her bullchit.

[d-ray657]

She's about a wingnut...Almost every time I've seen cops & demonstrators clash in cases like this, the cops will give the demonstrators AMPLE time/warning to disperse, or tell 'em to NOT cross such & such a line. THEY have much more to lose than SHE does-the hassle, the media recriminations, endless paperwork & investigations, yada, yada, yada. Mother Sheehan, I'm SURE, didn't provoke the cops at all & followed ALL their instructions to the letter...Yeah, riiiiiiiight...Maybe they just finally got tired of putting up w/her bullchit.

To some extent this goes to the current problem that too many people refuse to be held accountable. She acknowledged that she crossed the barrier that had been established. (The First Amendment permits reasonable time and place restrictions). She engaged in civil disobedience. As I understand the concept of civil disobedience, those participating acknowledge that they are breaking the law, and accept the consequences. They make a sacrifice in order to protest injustice. She apparently made the sacrifice, but not willingly. It appears that she was uncivil in her disobedience.

Regards,

D-Ray

[noonereal]

To some extent this goes to the current problem that too many people refuse to be held accountable. She acknowledged that she crossed the barrier that had been established. (The First Amendment permits reasonable time and place restrictions). She engaged in civil disobedience. As I understand the concept of civil disobedience, those participating acknowledge that they are breaking the law, and accept the consequences. They make a sacrifice in order to protest injustice. She apparently made the sacrifice, but not willingly. It appears that she was uncivil in her disobedience.

Regards,

D-Ray

I just feel bad for the women.

She just cannot cope with her loss.

Heartbreaking.

[piece-itpete]

It is very sad.

I remember a conversation that I overheard when I was quite young, between my dad and an older cousin.

'Uncle Bob, I'm going to join the army.'

'What if you have to fight?'

'Fight? Why would I have to fight?'

Pete

[Charles]

Shoulda stuck to bashing Boosch.

Chas

[Zeke]

Sometimes, things happen: and people are never the same...

[d-ray657]

Shoulda stuck to bashing Boosch.

Chas

Who me? applying a double standard. Surely you jest.

No doubt I feel for her grief. I absolutely cannot imagine what it would be like to lose a child. I do think, however, that those who practice civil disobedience should be prepared to suffer the consequences. As Sandy pointed out, most cops have become smart enough nowadays to avoid making anyone into a martyr except as a last resort.

Regards,

D-Ray

[rickr15]

Shoulda stuck to bashing Boosch.

Chas

Oddly Cindy sticks up for him. "This never happened to me when Bush was president."


Bush arresting her would have made a martyr. Obama is not in the same situation and if she keeps pushing the powers that be I think she will find this out. As well as racking herself up a criminal record of course.

[rickr15]

Sometimes, things happen: and people are never the same...

QFT Sure don't envy her life.

[Sandy G]

I don't think her son would be happy w/her making herself into some sort of latter-day mixed-up Don Quixote over him, though...Kinda dishonors his memory....And if a cop tells you NOT to do somethin', & you go ahead & do it, well, tough noogies. You were warned.

[d-ray657]

Oddly Cindy sticks up for him.


Bush arresting her would have made a martyr. Obama is not in the same situation and if she keeps pushing the powers that be I think she will find this out. As well as racking herself up a criminal record of course.

Isn't she the one who was arrested for wearing an anti-war t-shirt to a bush speech?

Regards,

D-Ray

[rickr15]

Isn't she the one who was arrested for wearing an anti-war t-shirt to a bush speech?

Regards,

D-Ray


"This never happened to me when Bush was president."

She's the one I quoted. Ask her.

[finnbow]

I have a hard time being critical of Cindy Sheehan, regardless of her faults/transgressions. Having your son killed in what you (and many others) believe to be a grand misadventure is likely more stressful than I'm able to comprehend. I hope she finds some inner peace sometime in the near future.

[d-ray657]

I agree with you about this Finn; the grief of losing a son under any circumstances is incomprehensible to me. Some people, however, become addicted to their sad circumstances and can't bear to move beyond them. Again, it's easier to judge than it would be to bear that loss. I would hope that she will find some closure and peace of mind. (Who knows, maybe the activism is what she needs to find closure. She can't find that peace until we do too)

Regards,

D-Ray

[Charles]

Who me? applying a double standard. Surely you jest.

No doubt I feel for her grief. I absolutely cannot imagine what it would be like to lose a child. I do think, however, that those who practice civil disobedience should be prepared to suffer the consequences. As Sandy pointed out, most cops have become smart enough nowadays to avoid making anyone into a martyr except as a last resort.

Regards,

D-Ray

Allow me to elaborate.

When she was demonstrating in front of the Boosch Ranch, with the media standing shoulder to shoulder, have she have been taken away in chains, it would have been on the 6:00 24/7.

Now, with Ears at the wheel, you have to go to a blog to hear about it.

I do feel sorry for her, as she apparently speaks from the heart. The poor woman has unfortunately evolved from a tool of the left to an embarrassment for the left.

That was my point.

Chas

[Zeke]

Having your son killed in what you (and many others) believe to be a grand misadventure is likely more stressful than I'm able to comprehend.

True. But -- perhaps -- she should place blame where it belongs?

I presume that her son volunteered, and reported when assigned, for said duty?

CHOICE!!

If you think it's a grand misadventure, as I do, you just don't go (or enlist). Potentially, is there a price to be paid?

SURE!!

Is it death? :eek:

As for questioning Obama's foreign policy? That's fair game, but it's somewhat difficult to blame someone for being messy when handed a steaming pile of dung.

[noonereal]

Allow me to elaborate.

When she was demonstrating in front of the Boosch Ranch, with the media standing shoulder to shoulder, have she have been taken away in chains, it would have been on the 6:00 24/7.

Now, with Ears at the wheel, you have to go to a blog to hear about it.

I do feel sorry for her, as she apparently speaks from the heart. The poor woman has unfortunately evolved from a tool of the left to an embarrassment for the left.

That was my point.

Chas

You were saying you felt bad for her but she long ago needed to stop.;)

[merrylander]

I don't know if she is anyone's tool. My oldest brother died of cancer in his late fifties. I saw my mother bury her firstborn. Nuff said.

[d-ray657]

True. But -- perhaps -- she should place blame where it belongs?

I presume that her son volunteered, and reported when assigned, for said duty?

CHOICE!!

If you think it's a grand misadventure, as I do, you just don't go (or enlist). Potentially, is there a price to be paid?

SURE!!

Is it death? :eek:

As for questioning Obama's foreign policy? That's fair game, but it's somewhat difficult to blame someone for being messy when handed a steaming pile of dung.

I don't know her or her son's economic circumstances. I do know that young people from low-income families are grossly over-represented in the military. It's served as an employer of last resort for an age group that suffers the highest unemployment rate. In essence it is an economic draft.

This is one area where my political principles and my fatherly instincts are in conflict. I think a draft is a more democratic way to meet the nation's military needs, but the last thing I would want to see is my sons involved in an unjust war - risking their lives for oil interests and Haliburton. I do think the view of war would be different if more people with economic means had their family members at risk of being put in harms way.

Regards,

D-Ray

[noonereal]

IMHO all Americans should serve, no exceptions.

[Zeke]

IMHO all Americans should serve, no exceptions.

In general, I can support that theory, providing things like the Peace Corp count as service.

Military conscription to carry out global Manifest Destiny/Imperialism just doesn't work for me.

[finnbow]

True. But -- perhaps -- she should place blame where it belongs?

I presume that her son volunteered, and reported when assigned, for said duty?

CHOICE!!

If you think it's a grand misadventure, as I do, you just don't go (or enlist).

A lot of guys enlisted after 9/11 due to their patriotic zeal (a good thing - think Pat Tillman). But they signed up to kick Osama's ass, not Saddam's. Once they're signed up, desertion in time of war is a capital offense even for our ill-fated misadventure in Iraq.

[Zeke]

A lot of guys enlisted after 9/11 due to their patriotic zeal (a good thing - think Pat Tillman). But they signed up to kick Osama's ass, not Saddam's. Once they're signed up, desertion in time of war is a capital offense even for our ill-fated misadventure in Iraq.

Nationalist zeal is what got us the Reich: I'm not a fan.

That said, are we at "war?" Did I miss a formal declaration? :p

Sure, I get your point, but -- again -- you can say, "no." There's just a price to be paid. (I tend to believe that Ali's choice has been well vindicated?)

Metaphorically, Osama bloodied our nose and we overreacted by swatting flies with Buicks... And they weren't even the right flies... :(

[finnbow]

Nationalist zeal is what got us the Reich: I'm not a fan.

That said, are we at "war?" Did I miss a formal declaration? :p

Sure, I get your point, but -- again -- you can say, "no." There's just a price to be paid. (I tend to believe that Ali's choice has been well vindicated?)

Metaphorically, Osama bloodied our nose and we overreacted by swatting flies with Buicks... And they weren't even the right flies... :(

I don't necessarily disagree with any of your points. OTOH, I'm reluctant to criticize this tortured and troubled woman. Having never been mothers, I'm not sure either of us can fully understand her grief or her chosen coping methodologies.

[Zeke]

I don't necessarily disagree with any of your points. OTOH, I'm reluctant to criticize this tortured and troubled woman. Having never been mothers, I'm not sure either of us can fully understand her grief or her chosen coping methodologies.

True, no doubt.

[noonereal]

In general, I can support that theory, providing things like the Peace Corp count as service.

Military conscription to carry out global Manifest Destiny/Imperialism just doesn't work for me.

Yes the Peace Corps counts and I think if our army were made up of all socioeconomic groups going to war in Iraq may have been looked at closer and challenged stronger.

[d-ray657]

Yes the Peace Corps counts and I think if our army were made up of all socioeconomic groups going to war in Iraq may have been looked at closer and challenged stronger.

Uh . . I think I agree with you there.:rolleyes:

Actually, not only that, the officer corps would likely have a different face, the experience with different people might bring the youts back with a more tolerant and respectful attitude toward other citizens, and people who served would have a greater sense of ownership in the country, rather than entitlement. I think Blue Streak is a good example of that. I'm sure there are others here who have had that experience, but I recall Dave recounting how the time in the service affected him.

Regards,

D-Ray

[noonereal]

Uh . . I think I agree with you there.:rolleyes:

Actually, not only that, the officer corps would likely have a different face, the experience with different people might bring the youts back with a more tolerant and respectful attitude toward other citizens, and people who served would have a greater sense of ownership in the country, rather than entitlement. I think Blue Streak is a good example of that. I'm sure there are others here who have had that experience, but I recall Dave recounting how the time in the service affected him.

Regards,

D-Ray

very good points

[rickr15]

Metaphorically, Osama bloodied our nose and we overreacted by swatting flies with Buicks... And they weren't even the right flies... :(

You would not believe how many people I talk to who insist that Iraq was somehow involved in 9/11.
I wonder whoever could have insinuated this to the uneducated masses?

As for Bin laden he was a useful boogeyman/tool or he would have been whacked at Tora Bora. (IMO)

[d-ray657]

You would not believe how many people I talk to who insist that Iraq was somehow involved in 9/11.
I wonder whoever could have insinuated this to the uneducated masses?

As for Bin laden he was a useful boogeyman/tool or he would have been whacked at Tora Bora. (IMO)

Rick, I've been reading you posts (I read most everyone's) and I can't pin your point of view down. Don't take offense, because that is a good thing - it means you aren't a parrot for the party line. Just observing. I'm sure we'll get into a good row one of these days.

Regards,

D-Ray

[rickr15]

Rick, I've been reading you posts (I read most everyone's) and I can't pin your point of view down. Don't take offense, because that is a good thing - it means you aren't a parrot for the party line. Just observing. I'm sure we'll get into a good row one of these days.

Regards,

D-Ray

I'm independent.
My view is strictly that.
My participation here is merely an educational experience for myself. I get both points of view 9left and right)and the occasional history lesson from Rob.

[piece-itpete]

Allow me to elaborate.

When she was demonstrating in front of the Boosch Ranch, with the media standing shoulder to shoulder, have she have been taken away in chains, it would have been on the 6:00 24/7.

Now, with Ears at the wheel, you have to go to a blog to hear about it.

I do feel sorry for her, as she apparently speaks from the heart. The poor woman has unfortunately evolved from a tool of the left to an embarrassment for the left.

That was my point.

Chas

Isn't it incredible, the party of compassion tosses her in jail like a used up rag, there's no outrage. It amazes me that she would say Bush never treated me this way. The party of compassion should think long and hard about this and what it clearly shows.

Pete

[noonereal]

Isn't it incredible, the party of compassion tosses her in jail like a used up rag, there's no outrage. It amazes me that she would say Bush never treated me this way. The party of compassion should think long and hard about this and what it clearly shows.

Pete

ya gotta be kiddin'

[finnbow]

Isn't it incredible, the party of compassion tosses her in jail like a used up rag, there's no outrage. It amazes me that she would say Bush never treated me this way. The party of compassion should think long and hard about this and what it clearly shows.

Pete

Maybe. To Chas' point, it may just be that her 15 minutes of fame is used up. The media pays attention to people like her when they provide useful vignettes to support the story they're trying to tell. Now the story du jour is health care and the vignettes that go with it. That's infotainment.:rolleyes:

[Zeke]

Isn't it incredible, the party of compassion tosses her in jail like a used up rag, there's no outrage. It amazes me that she would say Bush never treated me this way. The party of compassion should think long and hard about this and what it clearly shows.

Pete

It's simple.

This is no longer about her son, this is about her. :rolleyes:

Mere jail is too good.

[piece-itpete]

So it was about her son during Bush's terms, now it isn't?

Reminds me of Gore vs Bush's eco-friendly houses. Obama mouths platitudes and does what he wants.

Pete

[Zeke]

So it was about her son during Bush's terms, now it isn't?

No.

I never thought so.

[piece-itpete]

I see, I see, said the blind man to his deaf wife.

But the left sure used her as a hammer. Until now.

Pete

[Charles]

No.

I never thought so.

Personally, I think she's sincere, otherwise she would have hung up her guns long ago.

I also think she is having problems coming to terms with what has happened to her. Some people can never let go.

Chas

[Zeke]

I also think she is having problems coming to terms with what has happened to her. Some people can never let go.

Which is not the same as being sincere.

If/when she lets go of this, she's a nobody and her son -- as if he isn't, anyway -- is well and truly dead.

That's her fear, not "the war."

[finnbow]

Which is not the same as being sincere.

If/when she lets go of this, she's a nobody and her son -- as if he isn't, anyway -- is well and truly dead.

That's her fear, not "the war."

And just exactly where is it that you got your MD in psychiatry?:rolleyes:

[Zeke]

And just exactly where is it that you got your MD in psychiatry?:rolleyes:

If her motive was impacting "the war," it doesn't take a genius to realize that she's NOT and HASN'T.

Continuing this, she's disturbed either way.

And? :rolleyes:

[finnbow]

If her motive was impacting "the war," it doesn't take a genius to realize that she's NOT and HASN'T.

Continuing this, she's disturbed either way.

And? :rolleyes:

At least she's not throwing bricks through office windows.;)

[Zeke]

At least she's not throwing bricks through office windows.;)

Exceedingly valid point.

[Sandy G]

Despite the fact that I'm an Uncaring, Unfeeling Rabid Racist Ultra Right Wing Crank who despises liberals & all they stand for, etc, etc, etc, I DO feel for her...I cannot imagine how it must feel to lose one's child.

[finnbow]

Despite the fact that I'm an Uncaring, Unfeeling Rabid Racist Ultra Right Wing Crank who despises liberals & all they stand for, etc, etc, etc, I DO feel for her...I cannot imagine how it must feel to lose one's child.

There you go Sandy - showing your soft side again. :)

[d-ray657]

We've seen enough expressions of parental concern here that we oughta start calling this the family values forum. ;)

Regards,

D-Ray

[Zeke]

We've seen enough expressions of parental concern here that we oughta start calling this the family values forum. ;)

Regards,

D-Ray

Okay. I'll be the ass, I'm good at it.

This was never about her kid, who is dead, gone, across the river and cannot be helped in any way.

Nor was it, or is it, about impacting the war by manning embarrassing vigil along a fence. (By virtue of doing what we're doing, the Executive has accepted deaths. You're not going to change any minds.)

This was about a focus for her anger, an anger that she has no right to have.

Her son was an adult. He made choices. He accepted responsibility for his well-being -- even if in the support of this military action buffoonery -- and his mother is shaming his volunteerism.

If she was used as a tool, by any party, she was a willing, prostituted, participant.

No sympathy.

If she doesn't like how this went down, she should vote: just like anyone else.

[noonereal]

Okay. I'll be the ass, I'm good at it.

This was never about her kid, who is dead, gone, across the river and cannot be helped in any way.

Nor was it, or is it, about impacting the war by manning embarrassing vigil along a fence. (By virtue of doing what we're doing, the Executive has accepted deaths. You're not going to change any minds.)

This was about a focus for her anger, an anger that she has no right to have.

Her son was an adult. He made choices. He accepted responsibility for his well-being -- even if in the support of this military action buffoonery -- and his mother is shaming his volunteerism.

If she was used as a tool, by any party, she was a willing, prostituted, participant.

No sympathy.

If she doesn't like how this went down, she should vote: just like anyone else.

(repost)

I just feel bad for the women.

She just cannot cope with her loss.

Heartbreaking.

[Charles]

(repost)

I just feel bad for the women.

She just cannot cope with her loss.

Heartbreaking.

I cannot agree more.

Once again switching gears, the main reason I'm not overly critical of the religious is that some people simply don't have the strength to face life by themselves.

Myself, I've never been able to have faith in something of which I have no comprehension. I suppose I'm too analytical.

I've always relied on Dutch Courage when I'm alone in the dark. I've also been known to rely on it for breakfast.

Chas

[noonereal]

I cannot agree more.



:confused: You do realize it was I that posted this????

[merrylander]

(repost)

I just feel bad for the women.

She just cannot cope with her loss.

Heartbreaking.

My Mother coped, not to say that it did not tear her heart apart. My Dad had died but she soldiered on, then when my Brother went she died a little each day.

[Charles]

:confused: You do realize it was I that posted this????

Of course I do. We're on the same page more often than not.

If we were to drop the Donks v Pukes, left v right meaningless label crapola, and quit cheering for the home team, we wouldn't have much to argue about at all.

Chas

[Charles]

My Mother coped, not to say that it did not tear her heart apart. My Dad had died but she soldiered on, then when my Brother went she died a little each day.

Life is hard, and we all will face this, in different degrees.

I try not to judge anothers grief, people cope in different ways. And it's really none of my business in the first place.

Chas

[noonereal]

Of course I do. We're on the same page more often than not.

If we were to drop the Donks v Pukes, left v right meaningless label crapola, and quit cheering for the home team, we wouldn't have much to argue about at all.

Chas

As I have said, most my life I have been center right, I just think things went to far and need a correction.

[d-ray657]

My mother learned how to survive circumstances throughout her life. She outlived three husbands and two daughters-in-law. I don't know how she would have reacted, however, if she had lost one of her "babies." In the natural order, we are not supposed to outlive our offspring, and don't know if anyone is wired to completely recover from that. God willing, I don't want to find out.

Regards,

D-Ray

[Sandy G]

My mother learned how to survive circumstances throughout her life. She outlived three husbands and two daughters-in-law. I don't know how she would have reacted, however, if she had lost one of her "babies." In the natural order, we are not supposed to outlive our offspring, and don't know if anyone is wired to completely recover from that. God willing, I don't want to find out.

Regards,

D-Ray

Yeah...I lost my mom about 18 months ago, it was/is tough, I find myself STILL picking up the phone to ask her something, & then...Can't do THAT anymore...But it was time for my mom to go...She'd suffered for 15-20 years from COPD & Emphysema, had been on oxygen for a good 10 yrs. She still managed to make it to 83. Wish she'd gotten to know my wife better, not as just the "Patient/Nurse" relationship they had. I have a feelin' they woulda been BIG buds...Mama was a lot of fun back before the COPD got hold of her. And she was SO damn glad to have FINALLY pawned me off on some poor, unsuspecting woman, She woulda done ANYTHING to make sure I never came back....Mbwahahahaha...

[d-ray657]

Yeah...I lost my mom about 18 months ago, it was/is tough, I find myself STILL picking up the phone to ask her something, & then...Can't do THAT anymore...But it was time for my mom to go...She'd suffered for 15-20 years from COPD & Emphysema, had been on oxygen for a good 10 yrs. She still managed to make it to 83. Wish she'd gotten to know my wife better, not as just the "Patient/Nurse" relationship they had. I have a feelin' they woulda been BIG buds...Mama was a lot of fun back before the COPD got hold of her. And she was SO damn glad to have FINALLY pawned me off on some poor, unsuspecting woman, She woulda done ANYTHING to make sure I never came back....Mbwahahahaha...

At the risk of becoming too maudlin here, I met my sweetie because my grandmother and father were in the hospital at the same time. Opening line was "will you change my grandmothers bed?" Twenty-something years later, she helped nurture my mother through her last several years of Alzheimer's, ran a "bed and breakfast" when my brothers came into town, and continued to take care of her "angels" every night at the nursing home. Now she tells me nearly every day that she misses our boys, even though they're only 35 miles away. As much of a rock as she has been for me, I don't know what would become of her if we lost one of our boys.

Regards,

D-Ray

[Charles]

I met my sweetie in a beer joint. I'm a hopeless romantic.

Chas