new epa rules

[elwood127]

The epa 35 mpg rule has no teeth. My 25 mpg astro gets about 19 mpg. Ridiculous that 40 years ago my bug got 35 mpg. What do you guys get?

[Sandy G]

The Mighty Valdez gets 8-10 in town, a rousing 15 (maybe) on the hiway....Downhill....In neutral....W/th' V-10 turned off...an' a BIG tailwind...But for a 7500lb 4WD truck, w/a 412 cu. inch motor, maybe that ain't THAT bad...

[merrylander]

On the highway the Impalas give us a good 29MPG, around town I really don't know but for a 3.8l V6 they are quite frugal.

[whoaru99]

The epa 35 mpg rule has no teeth. My 25 mpg astro gets about 19 mpg. Ridiculous that 40 years ago my bug got 35 mpg. What do you guys get?

I've not actually driven my 2009 Impala on a long enough trip to hand calculate an accurate highway mileage, but the computer display typically shows 32-35 mpg with cruise on @ ~60 mph.

I did hand calculate a tank of mixed driving and came up with 24.2 average. The computer showed 24.4.

About the Bug, yeah, I see that alot. The thing people seem to forget is that all these older cars with great mileage were low horsepower. The Bug was around 50 horsepower, my Impala is rated at 211 hp. I'd reckon if we still made some 50 hp cars today the mileage would be higher.

[d-ray657]

I remember when the first Hondas were sold here. They basically had a motorcycle engine in a small car, IIRC. I don't remember the numbers on mileage, but I recall it being better than anything else around. Now my partner drives a Honda Accord, and it gets worse mileage than the '10 Malibu I drove for a couple of weeks. I didn't reset the computer for the entire time I had the car, and it was just short of 29mpg when I turned it in. When my wife returns from a trip in the Saturn Astra, it will show 32-33 mpg, but when I take it on a trip it is more like 30 for the highway driving. I set the cruise for about 4mph over the speed limit, and she drives about 5mph under. I guess that 55 mph speed limit they set years back did make a difference.

The best mileage I ever got out of a car was the 78 Rabbit I had in the early '80s. I got 42mpg out of it on the turnpike, but averaged around 35 most of the time. It was built like a POS, though.

I wonder what would happen if we were ASKED to make sacrifices for the sake of gaining energy independence. I know that there would be a revolution if a new 55mph speed limit were imposed. The statistics show a significant improvement with slower driving. I notice that I get 2-3 worse mpg when I use the air conditioner. My body could sure use more walking that driving for short trips. That sort of exercise would probably result in a general improvement for the health of the country as well. With all of the flag waving going on, if it were presented to people as a patriotic thing to do for the security of the country, do you think we would see an uptick in personal conservation measures?

Regards,

D-Ray

[rickr15]

A lot of 80's Chevy Sprints (3 cyl Suzukis) with stick shifts got 50 mpg. Couldn't do it now as the mandated weight of all the crash safety stuff.

We have quite simply made the cars heavier than we can overcome with mileage improvements. Take 1500 Lbs of window motors,6 speaker stereos, Cruise,Airbags ,leather the wire to run it all etc and the mileage will follow.

[d-ray657]

A lot of 80's Chevy Sprints (3 cyl Suzukis) with stick shifts got 50 mpg. Couldn't do it now as the mandated weight of all the crash safety stuff.

We have quite simply made the cars heavier than we can overcome with mileage improvements. Take 1500 Lbs of window motors,6 speaker stereos, Cruise,Airbags ,leather the wire to run it all etc and the mileage will follow.

That sounds too practical. As I mentioned, are Americans willing to make that kind of sacrifice? In speaking of sacrifice, I mean the personal convenience items like power windows and big stereos, not the safety items. I drive a stick shift out of preference, however, rather than sacrifice.

Regards,

D-Ray

[Charles]

I doubt that stereos, leather, and power window motors add that much to the weight of a vehicle. And probably not even that much to the price.

Air bags certainly do, at least to the price, and they're mandated by the government.

Chas

[hillbilly]

Speakin' of the Sprint that got about 50 mpg, my friend had one. It also had more room inside than the piece of crap Smart they are allowing to be driven on our roads today. So, if a 1200 pound Smart can be bought and driven on our roads today, .. then why didn't the government just keep their noses out of GM's beezwax to begin with? I seen a Smart the other day at a redlight and told my wife how silly it was for the government to tell the makers they had to meet certain weight standards ... then years down the road decide to allow something even smaller & lighter than what they had put a stop to years ago. I think if they allow Smarts to be sold in the states .. then they shoulda kept their noses out of the big three's beezwax when they had cars that were cheap to operate. At least the big three offered seating for four .. unlike the new crackerbox Smart that weights even less.

[Zeke]

Daily?

1995 Chrysler Cirrus beater with a Mitsubishi sourced V6.

In general, it reminds me of a slant-six powered 1975 Plymouth Valiant.

How? The body will fall apart LONG before the powertrain.

30+ mpg, dependent upon how I drive.

[Grumpy]

I tend to believe that most Americans don't care and will continue to buy vehicles 5 times too large for their needs.

We have our van to transport all five of us, our econo toyota, for the wife to make the long commute to work and our chevelle and jeep as toys.

[rickr15]

Interesing read.

http://fourwheeldrift.wordpress.com/2008/11/20/why-cars-have-gotten-so-heavy-or-yo-mamas-car-is-so-fat/

[piece-itpete]

.. I'd reckon if we still made some 50 hp cars today the mileage would be higher.

For sure, I owned a 96 Metro for some time, 76 horse 1.3L I4 5 speed, it averaged 39+ mpg my driving real world.

Daily?

1995 Chrysler Cirrus beater with a Mitsubishi sourced V6.

In general, it reminds me of a slant-six powered 1975 Plymouth Valiant.

How? The body will fall apart LONG before the powertrain.


Lol! Good old Chrysler.

My TC seems to be doing around 17 city, 22 hwy, I'll know for sure fairly soon.

Pete

[d-ray657]

Interesing read.

http://fourwheeldrift.wordpress.com/2008/11/20/why-cars-have-gotten-so-heavy-or-yo-mamas-car-is-so-fat/

It is interesting. I would want some more support for his conclusions about weight before I put a whole lot of stock in the argument. It almost seems like he is grabbing numbers out of the air, although they make some sense.

One of the points was that the more gears a car has, the heavier it is. Intuitively that makes sense, but I think if I had another gear, my mileage would improve. I drive a five speed manual. Driving at highway speed, 70 mph, it raps up at about 35k rpm. It's not sluggish at all. I think if I had a sixth gear, it would drop down to the low 20k rpm, and My gas mileage would go way up. While it would add some weight, it would be worth it.

Another thing I do is coast whenever I can. My normal exit from the expressway is about 3/4 mile long. If I can pull into that lane doing around 60 or better, I can coast all the way to the light. There are several other spots that I hit in my regular driving that I can coast for several blocks at a time. I coast by leaving the clutch in. I hope that's not why my tranny went out.

It also makes sense that the heaviest cars might not do the best on the crash tests. While thicker walls might provide more protection, they would also increase the force in a crash, velocity x mass - drag = momentum (I think, been awhile). Therefore, properly aligned bracing that does not add as much weight to the car would probably perform better, because it would decrease the force exerted on each object in the collision.

Regards,

D-Ray

[JJIII]

Geez D! I hope you're not turning that thing 35,000 RPM. I don't think it'll last long that way. ;)

[Grumpy]

One of the points was that the more gears a car has, the heavier it is. Intuitively that makes sense, but I think if I had another gear, my mileage would improve. I drive a five speed manual. Driving at highway speed, 70 mph, it raps up at about 35k rpm. It's not sluggish at all. I think if I had a sixth gear, it would drop down to the low 20k rpm, and My gas mileage would go way up. While it would add some weight, it would be worth it.


D-Ray

You would think so but its not always so. A motors peak efficiency is not always when its chugging along at lower RPM's

[rickr15]

You would think so but its not always so. A motors peak efficiency is not always when its chugging along at lower RPM's


Thats where diesels rock. Throw them into OD and cruise they get about 30% better mileage than any gas motor. The new 2010 compliant ones run cleaner too.

Driving at highway speed, 70 mph, it raps up at about 35k rpm.
Damn D-Ray if your motoring along with the motor turning 35,000 on the highway I bet they can hear you coming for miles. What you got in that thing ? Gas turbine?

For sure, I owned a 96 Metro for some time, 76 horse 1.3L I4 5 speed, it averaged 39+ mpg my driving real world

Those things were selling for thousands a couple years ago when gas hit $4.50 probably get one cheap right now. The original Sprints with a 1.0 got even better mileage.

[Charles]

It is interesting. I would want some more support for his conclusions about weight before I put a whole lot of stock in the argument. It almost seems like he is grabbing numbers out of the air, although they make some sense.

One of the points was that the more gears a car has, the heavier it is. Intuitively that makes sense, but I think if I had another gear, my mileage would improve. I drive a five speed manual. Driving at highway speed, 70 mph, it raps up at about 35k rpm. It's not sluggish at all. I think if I had a sixth gear, it would drop down to the low 20k rpm, and My gas mileage would go way up. While it would add some weight, it would be worth it.

Another thing I do is coast whenever I can. My normal exit from the expressway is about 3/4 mile long. If I can pull into that lane doing around 60 or better, I can coast all the way to the light. There are several other spots that I hit in my regular driving that I can coast for several blocks at a time. I coast by leaving the clutch in. I hope that's not why my tranny went out.

It also makes sense that the heaviest cars might not do the best on the crash tests. While thicker walls might provide more protection, they would also increase the force in a crash, velocity x mass - drag = momentum (I think, been awhile). Therefore, properly aligned bracing that does not add as much weight to the car would probably perform better, because it would decrease the force exerted on each object in the collision.

Regards,

D-Ray

If you're going to hit a telephone pole doing 70 MPH, would you rather be on a bicycle or in a '55 Buick? Mass has it's advantages.

Chas

[d-ray657]

If you're going to hit a telephone pole doing 70 MPH, would you rather be on a bicycle or in a '55 Buick? Mass has it's advantages.

Chas

Or in an auto body designed to absorb and dissipate the crash?

Regards,

D-Ray

[d-ray657]

Geez D! I hope you're not turning that thing 35,000 RPM. I don't think it'll last long that way. ;)

I confess to not knowing much about how engines should or should not run. I can easily be fooled. Is 35K fairly normal, or is it running at a high rate? I just noticed that the chevy I had rented ran a bit lower at highway speeds.

Regards,

D-Ray

[Zeke]

Most likely, you're off by a factor of ten.

Typical street engines idle around 900 rpm and redline south of 6,000 rpm.

[d-ray657]

Most likely, you're off by a factor of ten.

Typical street engines idle around 900 rpm and redline south of 6,000 rpm.

I stand chagrined.:o

Regards,

D-Ray

[JJIII]

I stand chagrined.:o

Regards,

D-Ray

Zeke has it right.

Don't be chagrined... I don't know anything about labor law.:)

At least you didn't try to tell us that islands are going to tip over!

[hillbilly]

Zeke has it right.

Don't be chagrined... I don't know anything about labor law.:)


How bout shine :D

[Charles]

Or in an auto body designed to absorb and dissipate the crash?

Regards,

D-Ray

I would imagine that two vehicles equally designed with equal crumple zones, and the only difference being mass, the one with more mass would protect you better than the lighter one.

Chas

[hillbilly]

I would imagine that two vehicles equally designed with equal crumple zones, and the only difference being mass, the one with more mass would protect you better than the lighter one.

Chas


Agree. The lighter one is going to 'bounce' pretty hard. To come to a sudden stop is bad enough, but instantly bouncing the other direction is even worse.

[JJIII]

How bout shine :D

Now that's a whole 'nother story! ;)

[Charles]

Would you rather hit a telephone pole at 70 MPH drinking 'ol Grandpap or finely crafted shine?

Driving, of course a '55 Buick with a Cadillac motor w three duces.

Chas

[Charles]

A little something to tap your toes to while you formulate a response to my previous post.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRH7FtAAbJE

Now it's off to work.

Chas

[JJIII]

Would you rather hit a telephone pole at 70 MPH drinking 'ol Grandpap or finely crafted shine?

Driving, of course a '55 Buick with a Cadillac motor w three duces.

Chas


I think we need to get Junior Johnson in to consult. :cool:

[merrylander]

There was a period (the hinges are hopefully better now) where the hood would come loose and smash back through the windshield of the larger car, sort of like the guillotine.

[d-ray657]

How bout shine :D

I most certainly leave it to my friends in Tennessee to produce sippin' whiskey. I'm kinda partial to Gentleman Jack.

Regards,

D-Ray

[rickr15]

If you're going to hit a telephone pole doing 70 MPH, would you rather be on a bicycle or in a '55 Buick? Mass has it's advantages.

Chas

Little off topic but I drove my buddies 56 Buick special home from golf a couple weekends ago and damn what a cool ride. Just cruisin down the freeway and people honk and give you a thumbs up. Chrome and quality everywhere.
Don't know that it needs the Caddy motor the old nailhead gets it down the road just fine.

[piece-itpete]

How bout shine :D

I'm in :D

Early cars had plate glass windshields, decapitations used be a real danger. My dad says steering columns used to go through the chest too. Very cheerful discussion.

Big heavy cars do worse in single car crashes because the weight has something to do with 'bounce back'. But us big car guys have a term for smaller cars - speed bumps lol.

I read a test drive of an old straight 16 car, it redlined at 1900 rpm! It was a 3 speed but it had so much torque you could just leave it in third.

Pete

[merrylander]

That was basically a Caddy with two V8 blocks bolted together, was a guy about ten miles down the road had one when I was a youngster. He had cutouts on the exhaust and as soon as he cleared his village he would open them, you could hear him coming.

[finnbow]

I think the whole CAFE standards thing is a joke and a copout for politicians unwilling to do the rational and effective thing - raise the gas tax significantly like all other first world nations have. Gas priced according to its overall societal cost (let's say $5/gallon) would dramatically reduce the deficit, compel Detroit to build fuel efficient cars (that may even be interesting to the rest of the world), reduce urban sprawl, .....

Gas priced at half of what is should be will continue to render the silly CAFE standard useless.

[Charles]

I think the whole CAFE standards thing is a joke and a copout for politicians unwilling to do the rational and effective thing - raise the gas tax significantly like all other first world nations have. Gas priced according to its overall societal cost (let's say $5/gallon) would dramatically reduce the deficit, compel Detroit to build fuel efficient cars (that may even be interesting to the rest of the world), reduce urban sprawl, .....

Gas priced at half of what is should be will continue to render the silly CAFE standard useless.

To do so, particularly now, would be the last nail in America's economic coffin. Or at least in MY economic coffin.

BTW, how was your trip to NO? Pleasant I hope.

Chas

[finnbow]

To do so, particularly now, would be the last nail in America's economic coffin. Or at least in MY economic coffin.

BTW, how was your trip to NO? Pleasant I hope.

Chas

You're right, Chas. Probably bad timing. But CAFE is a bad joke.

New Orleans was great fun. Lots of tunes, oysters and beer (and some sightseeing). Saw one particularly crazy band there, Cowboy Mouth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZBpKnL5N0w).

I love New Orleans (mostly outside the French Quarter). It's the absolute antithesis of DC.

[Charles]

You're right, Chas. Probably bad timing. But CAFE is a bad joke.

New Orleans was great fun. Lots of tunes, oysters and beer (and some sightseeing). Saw one particularly crazy band there, Cowboy Mouth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZBpKnL5N0w).

I love New Orleans (mostly outside the French Quarter). It's the absolute antithesis of DC.

OMG, oysters and beer...I'm gonna cry!!!

Chas

[d-ray657]

You're right, Chas. Probably bad timing. But CAFE is a bad joke.

New Orleans was great fun. Lots of tunes, oysters and beer (and some sightseeing). Saw one particularly crazy band there, Cowboy Mouth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZBpKnL5N0w).

I love New Orleans (mostly outside the French Quarter). It's the absolute antithesis of DC.

Did they play Joe Strummer? They are immune from any attempt at pigeonholing. Good stuff.

Regards,

D-Ray

[Charles]

I suppose they're OK, but I like Glenn Miller or Louie Armstrong better.

I suppose I'm kinda lame.

Chas

[finnbow]

Did they play Joe Strummer? They are immune from any attempt at pigeonholing. Good stuff.

Regards,

D-Ray

Yep. They played for about 1 3/4 hours. Quite a kick.

[piece-itpete]

I suppose they're OK, but I like Glenn Miller or Louie Armstrong better.

I suppose I'm kinda lame.

Chas

Lmao! As the bad guy said to Bruce Willis in Live Free or Die Hard, you're a timex watch in a digital world :)

Seriously, as I get older my tastes in music seem to be too. I actually enjoyed watching the piano playing lady on Lawrence Welk, dressed as a chicken.

The lady, not me :)

Pete

[d-ray657]

Lmao! As the bad guy said to Bruce Willis in Live Free or Die Hard, you're a timex watch in a digital world :)

Seriously, as I get older my tastes in music seem to be too. I actually enjoyed watching the piano playing lady on Lawrence Welk, dressed as a chicken.

The lady, not me :)

Pete

If she was dressed as a chicken on Mr. Welk, what was he doing, egging her on?

I don't know if my tastes are getting older, but like my arse, they are getting broader. I have added alt-country, vocal jazz, Motown soul, folk, punk, and some more classical to a listening rotation that already included classic rock, indie rock, blues, jazz, and classical. Still haven't made the leap into Opera, and I generally avoid pop.

Regards,

D-Ray

[piece-itpete]

If she was dressed as a chicken on Mr. Welk, what was he doing, egging her on?

I don't know if my tastes are getting older, but like my arse, they are getting broader.



Grooooaaaan lol.

I have added alt-country, vocal jazz, Motown soul, folk, punk, and some more classical to a listening rotation that already included classic rock, indie rock, blues, jazz, and classical. Still haven't made the leap into Opera, and I generally avoid pop.

Regards,

D-Ray

It's fun, not caring if you're 'cool' :) Plus with thrift records at $.50 who cares if it's a bust.

I still don't like the opera thing either, although I do like choral works.

Pete

[Charles]

Grooooaaaan lol.



It's fun, not caring if you're 'cool' :) Plus with thrift records at $.50 who cares if it's a bust.

I still don't like the opera thing either, although I do like choral works.

Pete

Opera's OK, so long as they mention Little Jimmy Dickens somewhere.

Chas

[d-ray657]

Grooooaaaan lol.



It's fun, not caring if you're 'cool' :) Plus with thrift records at $.50 who cares if it's a bust.

I still don't like the opera thing either, although I do like choral works.

Pete

Man, I guess there is a recession in Cleveland. I have to pay a buck for thrift store records.

My favorite all-time musical work includes a significant choral section - Beethoven's Ninth. Cliche, I know, but you like what you like. I guess part of it is growing up singing a hymn based on the Ode to Joy.

Regards,

D-Ray

[Charles]

Man, I guess there is a recession in Cleveland. I have to pay a buck for thrift store records.

My favorite all-time musical work includes a significant choral section - Beethoven's Ninth. Cliche, I know, but you like what you like. I guess part of it is growing up singing a hymn based on the Ode to Joy.

Regards,

D-Ray

Most of the records I've seen going for a buck were so skinned up that I wouldn't buy them.

Perhaps I analize my used vinyl too closely. The dreaded anal rectivus, a chronic affliction of conservatives.

Chas

[d-ray657]

Most of the records I've seen going for a buck were so skinned up that I wouldn't buy them.

Perhaps I analize my used vinyl too closely. The dreaded anal rectivus, a chronic affliction of conservatives.

Chas

I find the classical to be in near mint shape 75-80% of the time. Finding a jazz record in good shape is a rare moment of good fortune. For a fan of Barbara Streisand, Barry Manilo or Tennessee Ernie Ford, the odds of finding something are pretty good. Finding a decent rock album is somewhere in between finding good jazz and finding Babs. When I'm really hankering for new vinyl, I can usually find something at Vintage Stock for a decent price, and Amazon has started showing a lot of used vinyl at decent prices. Good vinyl sounds great with an Ortofon 2M Blue; ever heard of that?

Regards,

D-ray

[piece-itpete]

That is my experience with thrift vinyl too. Garage sales even better, but it's getting to where you have to look real hard.

Pete

[BlueStreak]

I find the classical to be in near mint shape 75-80% of the time. Finding a jazz record in good shape is a rare moment of good fortune. For a fan of Barbara Streisand, Barry Manilo or Tennessee Ernie Ford, the odds of finding something are pretty good. Finding a decent rock album is somewhere in between finding good jazz and finding Babs. When I'm really hankering for new vinyl, I can usually find something at Vintage Stock for a decent price, and Amazon has started showing a lot of used vinyl at decent prices. Good vinyl sounds great with an Ortofon 2M Blue; ever heard of that?

Regards,

D-ray

Uh, "Babs"? No thanks. My sisters drove me crazy with "Babs" back in the '70s. Now, when I hear that voice, it makes me cringe.

Around here, finding Rock on vinyl that DOESN"T look like someones been serving pizza on it, is nearly impossible.

"Good vinyl sounds great with an Ortophon 2M Blue; ever heard of that?" Damn Skippy, Bud! I "hear of it" every day!

Dave

[d-ray657]

Uh, "Babs"? No thanks. My sisters drove me crazy with "Babs" back in the '70s. Now, when I hear that voice, it makes me cringe.

Around here, finding Rock on vinyl that DOESN"T look like someones been serving pizza on it, is nearly impossible.

"Good vinyl sounds great with an Ortophon 2M Blue; ever heard of that?" Damn Skippy, Bud! I "hear of it" every day!

Dave

Barbara Streisand is a running joke in any reference to thrifts. I don't think I have once looked in the record bin at a thrift store with being exposed to her schnozz. I think I have seen Zappa with the record actually in the sleeve once. Never found a playable Miles, but I have found a Brubeck or two.

I was kidding Chas about the Ortofon. I know he is a big fan, and he convinced me to try out the Blue for awhile.

Regards,

D-Ray

[piece-itpete]

Here in Eastern European immigrant land, Polka is King, it's everywhere.

It's also too bad I'm not into Singalongamitch as much as my dad is too :)

Pete

[Charles]

Barbara Streisand is a running joke in any reference to thrifts. I don't think I have once looked in the record bin at a thrift store with being exposed to her schnozz. I think I have seen Zappa with the record actually in the sleeve once. Never found a playable Miles, but I have found a Brubeck or two.

I was kidding Chas about the Ortofon. I know he is a big fan, and he convinced me to try out the Blue for awhile.

Regards,

D-Ray

Well, if you don't like it, you saved $200 finding out so.

Chas

[d-ray657]

Well, if you don't like it, you saved $200 finding out so.

Chas

Man do my inflections not come through in print. I was making the point that the Blue sounds terrific, but tried to indicate that no one had to tell you that, nor would anyone have to tell Dave that. Anyway, I pretty much trust your judgment when it doesn't have to do with politics.:rolleyes:

Regards,

D-Ray