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donquixote99
04-17-2017, 09:12 AM
Historian Tim Snyder says we don't pay enough attention to history. Well, he would, wouldn't he, but he seems to me to have some vital points. Basically, history tells us that free countries can 'go authoritarian' with great speed. Happened this weekend in Turkey, for example.

History never repeats exactly, but what has happened before can happen again, and often does. Snyder suggests 'it can happen here,' and offers a set of twenty lessons for what to think, and, very importantly, what to do. I'm going to put up a lesson a day.

But, you can read all twenty right now, here. (http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america) Or you might even buy Snyder's book. (https://www.amazon.com/Tyranny-Twenty-Lessons-Twentieth-Century/dp/0804190119/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1492438189&sr=1-1&keywords=timothy+snyder+on+tyranny)

donquixote99
04-17-2017, 09:17 AM
1. Do not obey in advance. Much of the power of authoritarianism is freely given. In times like these, individuals think ahead about what a more repressive government will want, and then start to do it without being asked. You've already done this, haven't you? Stop. Anticipatory obedience teaches authorities what is possible and accelerates unfreedom.

An example would include reluctance to go publicly 'on the record' with concerns or opposition to repressive or illegal administration policies.

BlueStreak
04-17-2017, 09:54 AM
Trust me; No anticipatory obedience here.

Everybody in my world well knows what I think of their king.

Fuck you, Trump!

donquixote99
04-17-2017, 10:01 AM
Right on, brother!

icenine
04-17-2017, 10:04 AM
Trust me; No anticipatory obedience here.

Everybody in my world well knows what I think of their king.

Fuck you, Trump!

Yeah!!

MrPots
04-17-2017, 04:12 PM
I'm in.....

donquixote99
04-18-2017, 06:34 AM
Lesson Two from historian Tim Snyder:
(http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america)
2. Defend an institution. Follow the courts or the media, or a court or a newspaper. Do not speak of “our institutions” unless you are making them yours by acting on their behalf. Institutions don't protect themselves. They go down like dominoes unless each is defended from the beginning.

Don't let the NY Times fail.

Dondilion
04-18-2017, 07:19 PM
Lesson Two from historian Tim Snyder:
(http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america)


Don't let the NY Times fail..

The Times They Are A Changing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7qQ6_RV4VQ

donquixote99
04-18-2017, 09:23 PM
Really Gonna Miss You

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpMDU9NcKq4

donquixote99
04-19-2017, 06:57 AM
Lesson Three from historian Tim Snyder:
(http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america)
3. Recall professional ethics. When the leaders of state set a negative example, professional commitments to just practice become much more important. It is hard to break a rule-of-law state without lawyers, and it is hard to have show trials without judges.

Isolate the bad guys by being sure to walk the walk.

JCricket
04-19-2017, 07:56 AM
Hey DQ
thanks for posting these. I do have to say I am feeling pretty stupid. I can read his remarks and follow maybe 50%. Then my mind goes off in a dozen directions wondering about all the different possibilities of what he "could" mean. Or more specifically, how it could apply to us.

donquixote99
04-19-2017, 10:03 AM
Thinking about a dozen directions is good. These are not cut and dried simple commandments, the author calls them 'lessons.' When you explore what they might mean to you, you think new thoughts and figure out stuff. These lessons are open-ended, so one need not expect to necessarily find the 'one answer,' as with a math problem. Each reader can go where they want and need to with them.

donquixote99
04-20-2017, 09:49 AM
Lesson Four from historian Tim Snyder: (http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america)

4. When listening to politicians, distinguish certain words. Look out for the expansive use of “terrorism” and “extremism.” Be alive to the fatal notions of “exception” and “emergency.” Be angry about the treacherous use of patriotic vocabulary.

Also, know a meme when you see one.

donquixote99
04-21-2017, 08:44 AM
Lesson Five from Historian Tim Snyder: (http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america)

5. Be calm when the unthinkable arrives. When the terrorist attack comes, remember that all authoritarians at all times either await or plan such events in order to consolidate power. Think of the Reichstag fire. The sudden disaster that requires the end of the balance of power, the end of opposition parties, and so on, is the oldest trick in the Hitlerian book. Don't fall for it.

Such events will be blamed on 'the enemy within.' Divide-and-conquer tactics.

donquixote99
04-22-2017, 07:22 AM
Lesson Six from Historian Tim Snyder:
(http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america)
6. Be kind to our language. Avoid pronouncing the phrases everyone else does. Think up your own way of speaking, even if only to convey that thing you think everyone is saying. (Don't use the Internet before bed. Charge your gadgets away from your bedroom, and read.) What to read? Perhaps The Power of the Powerless by Václav Havel, 1984 by George Orwell, The Captive Mind by Czesław Milosz, The Rebel by Albert Camus, The Origins of Totalitarianism by Hannah Arendt, or Nothing is True and Everything is Possible by Peter Pomerantsev.

Thinking in slogans is not thinking, and the debasement of language is the debasement of thought. To a huge extent, the Internet is a study in modern advanced techniques of opinion control. Beware what is served to you; find your own reading.

donquixote99
04-24-2017, 06:12 AM
Lesson Seven from Historian Tim Snyder: (http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america)

7. Stand out. Someone has to. It is easy, in words and deeds, to follow along. It can feel strange to do or say something different. But without that unease, there is no freedom. And the moment you set an example, the spell of the status quo is broken, and others will follow.

One of their chief weapons is inertia--reinforced by intimidation. Be brave and bold.

donquixote99
04-25-2017, 08:05 AM
Lesson Eight from Historian Tim Snyder: (http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america)

8. Believe in truth. To abandon facts is to abandon freedom. If nothing is true, then no one can criticize power because there is no basis upon which to do so. If nothing is true, then all is spectacle. The biggest wallet pays for the most blinding lights.

Truth is the beating heart of resistance. That's why it is targeted.

donquixote99
04-26-2017, 11:16 AM
Lesson Nine from Historian Tim Snyder: (http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america)

9. Investigate. Figure things out for yourself. Spend more time with long articles. Subsidize investigative journalism by subscribing to print media. Realize that some of what is on your screen is there to harm you. Learn about sites that investigate foreign propaganda pushes.

If you aren't careful, the next-to-last sentence changes: strike 'some,' insert 'most.'

donquixote99
04-27-2017, 09:57 AM
Lesson Ten from Historian Tim Snyder: (http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america)

10. Practice corporeal politics. Power wants your body softening in your chair and your emotions dissipating on the screen. Get outside. Put your body in unfamiliar places with unfamiliar people. Make new friends and march with them.

Getting out on the street means you care. Staying home means you don't.

Stand Against Racism Rally today in Dayton. 12-2, Courthouse Square. See you there!

merrylander
04-28-2017, 05:57 AM
Not only power - age does much the same.

Dondilion
04-28-2017, 10:03 AM
Lesson Eight from Historian Tim Snyder: (http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america)



Truth is the beating heart of resistance. That's why it is targeted.

But who determines the truth? Politicians, Historians, Clergy, Journalists, etc?

donquixote99
04-28-2017, 10:37 AM
But who determines the truth? Politicians, Historians, Clergy, Journalists, etc?

You are falling into the trap of thinking there are 'competing' truths, or 'alternate' facts. This enables liars to say 'oh, that's just your truth,' denying the power of truth to show them wrong.

There is only one truth, and it is true by itself, no one 'determines' it. The persons you name may tell the truth, or they may not. It's important to expect that they will, and hold them to account if they do not.

donquixote99
04-28-2017, 10:44 AM
Lesson Eleven from Historian Tim Snyder: (http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america)

11. Make eye contact and small talk. This is not just polite. It is a way to stay in touch with your surroundings, break down unnecessary social barriers, and come to understand whom you should and should not trust. If we enter a culture of denunciation, you will want to know the psychological landscape of your daily life.

Don't assume--get to know people. All sorts of people. Ignorance is never strength.

And, I think part of what Snyder is saying here is good relations with those around you is a defense against being a 'other' who can become a target for gossip and denunciation if the times become 'McCarthy-like.'

MrPots
04-28-2017, 12:21 PM
You are falling into the trap of thinking there are 'competing' truths, or 'alternate' facts. This enables liars to say 'oh, that's just your truth,' denying the power of truth to show them wrong.

There is only one truth, and it is true by itself, no one 'determines' it. The persons you name may tell the truth, or they may not. It's important to expect that they will, and hold them to account if they do not.

Well stated

donquixote99
04-29-2017, 06:13 PM
Lesson Twelve from Historian Tim Snyder
(http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america)
12. Take responsibility for the face of the world. Notice the swastikas and the other signs of hate. Do not look away and do not get used to them. Remove them yourself and set an example for others to do so.

Don't let the haters feel like they have claimed the territory.

donquixote99
04-30-2017, 07:53 AM
Lesson Thirteen from Historian Tim Snyder
(http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america)
13. Hinder the one-party state. The parties that took over states were once something else. They exploited a historical moment to make political life impossible for their rivals. Vote in local and state elections while you can.

And participate in campaigns. And consider running for office.

MrPots
04-30-2017, 03:39 PM
Lesson Thirteen from Historian Tim Snyder
(http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america)


And participate in campaigns. And consider running for office.

Problem with that is everyone but republicans are expected to be pure as the driven snow and fully vetted. Republicans can be liars, crooks and con men and they will always be handily elected. Mainly because of the ignorance of the average republican voter and gerrymandering.

It's really hard to fight stupid.

donquixote99
04-30-2017, 05:14 PM
If it were easy, we'd have a lot fewer problems.

donquixote99
05-01-2017, 08:26 AM
Lesson Fourteen from Historian Tim Snyder (http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america)

14. Give regularly to good causes, (https://donate.splcenter.org/sslpage.aspx?pid=463) if you can. Pick a charity and set up autopay. Then you will know that you have made a free choice that is supporting civil society helping others doing something good.

This goes with the ones about keeping countervailing institutions alive.

Pio1980
05-01-2017, 10:01 AM
Lesson Fourteen from Historian Tim Snyder (http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america)



This goes with the ones about keeping countervailing institutions alive.
I'm a sustaining member at NPR, a counter to "alternative" facts.

donquixote99
05-01-2017, 10:39 AM
I'm a sustaining member at NPR, a counter to "alternative" facts.

Yes they are, despite some efforts to undermine them. They very much need real grassroots funding.

donquixote99
05-03-2017, 07:40 AM
Lesson 15 From Historian Tim Snyder
(http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america)
15. Establish a private life. Nastier rulers will use what they know about you to push you around. Scrub your computer of malware. Remember that email is skywriting. Consider using alternative forms of the Internet, or simply using it less. Have personal exchanges in person. For the same reason, resolve any legal trouble. Authoritarianism works as a blackmail state, looking for the hook on which to hang you. Try not to have too many hooks.

"Email is skywriting" is the big lesson here, if you didn't know it already.

donquixote99
05-04-2017, 07:57 AM
Lesson 16 From Historian Tim Snyder (http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america)

16. Learn from others in other countries. Keep up your friendships abroad, or make new friends abroad. The present difficulties here are an element of a general trend. And no country is going to find a solution by itself. Make sure you and your family have passports.

donquixote99
05-06-2017, 09:06 AM
Lesson 17 From Historian Tim Snyder
(http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america)
17. Watch out for the paramilitaries. When the men with guns who have always claimed to be against the system start wearing uniforms and marching around with torches and pictures of a Leader, the end is nigh. When the pro-Leader paramilitary and the official police and military intermingle, the game is over.

We certainly hear enough of this impulse from certain Trump supporters....

donquixote99
05-09-2017, 05:58 PM
Lesson 18 From Historian Tim Snyder (http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america)

18. Be reflective if you must be armed. If you carry a weapon in public service, God bless you and keep you. But know that evils of the past involved policemen and soldiers finding themselves, one day, doing irregular things. Be ready to say no. (If you do not know what this means, contact the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and ask about training in professional ethics.)

The word is 'honor.' Only you can keep it, or lose it.

donquixote99
05-10-2017, 10:43 AM
Lesson 19 From Historian Tim Snyder (http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america)

19. Be as courageous as you can. If none of us is prepared to die for freedom, then all of us will die in unfreedom.

Historically, authoritarians resort to political violence. At least Trump does not have an overt, organized paramilitary at this time. If the Army does not intervene, successful resistance may be possible.

merrylander
05-10-2017, 12:28 PM
Lesson 16 From Historian Tim Snyder (http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america)

Don't need a passport because if I leave here I am not coming back.:)

donquixote99
05-12-2017, 08:35 AM
Lesson 20 From Historian Tim Snyder (http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america)

20. Be a patriot. The incoming president is not. Set a good example of what America means for the generations to come. They will need it.

The right thinks they own the word 'patriot.' For the most part these days, they sully it.

This concludes the 20 lessons as initially published on the web. Tim Snyder afterwards expanded them into a small book, which is well worth the reading. He takes the opportunity to change the lessons around a little, and adds essays, some quite substantial, with each one. Available on Amazon. (https://www.amazon.com/Tyranny-Twenty-Lessons-Twentieth-Century/dp/0804190119/ref=sr_1_1/145-9227143-8306523?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1494595942&sr=1-1&keywords=on+tyranny+timothy+snyder)

I now think that Trump lacks the 'vision' and competence to take us to a full blown tyranny. But the danger is nonetheless real, and by no means over yet.

bobabode
05-16-2017, 12:29 AM
Saw the good doctor on the Daily Show tonight.

donquixote99
05-16-2017, 08:52 AM
Saw the good doctor on the Daily Show tonight.

Found it, thanks! Will watch now.

ON edit--scratch that link--turkey posted it sideways (pic rotated 90 degree--no kidding), and calls it 'fake news site.'

Oerets
05-16-2017, 09:41 AM
With all the different reactions apparently from self inflicted controversies and events of late from this administration. Can we be reassured when a outside threat or event happens in real time, they will react with a single concise decisive plan? Or many, only to be overridden by a tweet from the throne at 7am? Or a response for guests after dinner entertainment.



Barney

merrylander
05-16-2017, 11:54 AM
I'm a sustaining member at NPR, a counter to "alternative" facts.

Good on you, I am a sustainer at our two local PBS stations and the local Classical Music station.

Pio1980
05-17-2017, 11:32 PM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/daily-show-fascism-post-truth_us_591c54abe4b0a7458fa48cbe

donquixote99
05-18-2017, 07:32 AM
^^^ A great link, goes straight to the heart of what Tim Snyder had to say to Trevor Noah. Snyder has incredible talent for boiling big stuff down to one powerful paragraph.

This one ought to be set to music.

Pio1980
07-30-2017, 12:39 PM
Rational food for thought;
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/republicans-no-longer-conservative-party_us_59767dd6e4b0e201d5776f8c

donquixote99
08-12-2017, 09:22 AM
Speaking of history, ever wonder what a Nazi torchlight parade looked like? They had one last night in Charlottesville, VA.

Funding was good, they had spiffy torches for everyone. No hoods on the KKK members, and no code words in the racist rhetoric. This would be a brigade in the uprising Trump spoke of.

https://twitter.com/aletweetsnews/status/896189794778218496
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/12/us/charlottesville-white-nationalists-rally/index.html

finnbow
08-12-2017, 10:11 AM
Speaking of history, ever wonder what a Nazi torchlight parade looked like? They had one last night in Charlottesville, VA.

Funding was good, they had spiffy torches for everyone. No hoods on the KKK members, and no code words in the racist rhetoric. This would be a brigade in the uprising Trump spoke of.

https://twitter.com/aletweetsnews/status/896189794778218496
http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/12/us/charlottesville-white-nationalists-rally/index.html

That really sucks. Charlottesville is far too nice a place to be defiled by these reprobates. You have to be sick in the head to actually believe that whites are being persecuted in this country.

Dondilion
08-12-2017, 11:22 AM
With all the different reactions apparently from self inflicted controversies and events of late from this administration. Can we be reassured when a outside threat or event happens in real time, they will react with a single concise decisive plan?



Barney

Any reassurance would be hollow. :D

Pio1980
08-12-2017, 11:50 AM
The world is watching.
I saw this on the BBC and thought you should see it:

Charlottesville: State of emergency over US far-right rally - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40912509

Pio1980
08-12-2017, 11:52 AM
Virginia governor declares local emergency after white nationalists rally
http://p.dw.com/p/2i7Ud

Dondilion
08-12-2017, 11:58 AM
The world is watching.
I saw this on the BBC and thought you should see it:

Charlottesville: State of emergency over US far-right rally - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40912509

A dunce in governance would see that the removal of General Lee's statue would be extremely provocative.

Chicks
08-12-2017, 12:00 PM
Melania tweets, but silence from the idiot in chief.

https://mobile.twitter.com/FLOTUS/status/896409989568507906

Pio1980
08-12-2017, 12:08 PM
A dunce in governance would see that the removal of General Lee's statue would be extremely provocative.

White privilege and the lost cause myth are still pervasive. The war continues, by other means.

nailer
08-12-2017, 01:28 PM
Speaking of history, ever wonder what a Nazi torchlight parade looked like?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uBEfcGNMd8

donquixote99
08-12-2017, 01:34 PM
Some militia unit marched through Charlottesville early this AM, in an apparent show of force. Seems they didn't stick around. State police have since cleared Emancipation Park in response to fisticuffs.

https://twitter.com/_CraigStanley/status/896349016929206272

Real uprising troops. I count 27 persons going by in that shot. Not exactly an army, but enough to cause big trouble....

donquixote99
08-15-2017, 06:27 PM
Remember that this is the Timothy Snyder "On Tyranny" topic? Remind yourself of what Snyder's point 17 was. See post #34 here. (In the book, this item became point 6.)

According to Snyder, the end is nigh.

donquixote99
09-01-2017, 07:09 PM
Corrupt and abusive police are a feature of tyranny.

Here police do a false arrest because a nurse refuses to draw blood illegally. They want the blood sample they for self-serving reasons--they hope results will enable them to blame the 3rd party victim in an accident stemming from a police chase.

https://egbertowillies.com/2017/09/01/nurse-arrested-not-draw-blood-illegally/

Oerets
09-01-2017, 07:14 PM
Seen this on the news today. Hope the officer gets fired along with the Chief!



Barney

Chicks
09-01-2017, 07:51 PM
Was just on the national news (NBC). Cop placed on admin leave. Hope she sues the bastard for false arrest, at the very least. Unbelievable. Welcome to Trump's America.

Oerets
09-02-2017, 05:23 AM
From the looks of the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKn1BmDDihw the fleeing driver committed suicide by semi.

Local PD just looking for another to place any of the blame now.



Barney

Dondilion
09-02-2017, 07:28 AM
Corrupt and abusive police are a feature of tyranny.

Here police do a false arrest because a nurse refuses to draw blood illegally. They want the blood sample they for self-serving reasons--they hope results will enable them to blame the 3rd party victim in an accident stemming from a police chase.

https://egbertowillies.com/2017/09/01/nurse-arrested-not-draw-blood-illegally/

The police department is complicit.

donquixote99
09-02-2017, 08:45 AM
On this page there's a longer video of what went down. Cops position is basically, paraphrasing, 'If you don't do whatever I say you're obstructing and subject to arrest. If I'm wrong you have to obey anyway and sue me later.'

Nurse in hard place. She handled it well. If she'd given the blood and the patient later sued, the hospital would have put it all on her for violating their policy. Police tried to coerce her to do just that with their arrest power.

icenine
09-02-2017, 09:25 AM
At Inland the police usually would wait until the initial medical care by the ER team was done, and wait until the x-rays and labs were over. Not once while I worked there did I ever see the police order any medical staff around like on that video. I think most ERs and local law enforcement work together pretty well.

The person who does the blood draw for the authorities works for the police department here in Riverside County and they usually take 30 minutes or so to show up. It has to be a designated individual not just anyone. When I would see them drawing blood I would think well I am having a bad day at work but nothing like the person lying on gurney about to be hit with a huge legal bill and maybe prison. X-raying drunk people is not very fun but it is better when they are completely zonked than when they are abusive to staff.

Pio1980
10-07-2017, 11:48 AM
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/yahoo-64-hours-october-american-politics_us_59d7c567e4b072637c43dd1c

ebacon
10-08-2017, 04:44 PM
Lesson Four from historian Tim Snyder: (http://inthesetimes.com/article/19658/20-lessons-from-the-20th-century-on-how-to-survive-in-trumps-america)



Also, know a meme when you see one.

Today I listened to the second amendment arguments for the umpteenth time and the word "rights" kept coming up. The right to bear arms vs the right to be safe.

IMO the word duty was wilting in the shadow of the word right. As a practical matter rights are what we want. Duty is how we behave to have what we want without pissing off our neighbors.

Interesting thread.

Pio1980
10-08-2017, 05:08 PM
Today I listened to the second amendment arguments for the umpteenth time and the word "rights" kept coming up. The right to bear arms vs the right to be safe.

IMO the word duty was wilting in the shadow of the word right. As a practical matter rights are what we want. Duty is how we behave to have what we want without pissing off our neighbors.

Interesting thread.

Without a civilian militia, it's a right without a purpose and a liability as interpreted by some as a justification for armed insurrection.

ebacon
10-08-2017, 05:28 PM
Without a civilian militia, it's a right without a purpose and a liability as interpreted by some as a justification for armed insurrection.

You have a succinct perception of the state of affairs with regard to the second amendment.

What would be your feelings if you had to give up writing?

Pio1980
10-08-2017, 06:03 PM
You have a succinct perception of the state of affairs with regard to the second amendment.

What would be your feelings if you had to give up writing?

Most of us need transport to live our daily lives, but have no Constitutional statement granting the right to own it, and somehow, that works. Firearm custodianship practically doesn't require a constitutionally granted right in most countries that dont specifically prohibit it. Here, it hasn't been unusual for local authorities to override and contramand Federal laws and regulations.

The 2nd not really equivalent with the 1st or the others without its purpose, which has expired. It has become a liability due to oversupply of a hazardous commodity and poor accountability. Vegas is the latest predictable result with more than 500 shot and more than 10 percent dead by one man, there will be many more incidences like this because things will only get worse because nothing is going to change regarding free distribution of any quantity desired regardless of purpose, a percentage of which also bleeds into the criminal black market.

There is no responsible practical logic whatsoever to the 2nd Amendment religion, its just an irrational justification for arming up for the bubba revolution with privately held arsenals, tho there have been instances of armed resistance to local tyranny by opressed minorities where having one available made a critical difference.
Otherwise, the simple historical lesson is that armed insurrection against Federal forces is usually ineffective at best, and disastrous otherwise.

Pio1980
10-08-2017, 06:15 PM
An aside, bakers and florists claiming a religious exemption to the requirement for equal accommodation of goods and services.
By law, the requirement exists, but its also possible that demands could be made for goods and services strictly as harassment and intimidation. For instance, custom pastries and floral arrangements for people and groups hostile to the people providing the service, which goes way beyond simply extending the reciprocal courtesy of not requesting something from someone who in good concience feels they cannot provide the service.
How should this be adjudicated?

donquixote99
10-08-2017, 10:05 PM
An aside, bakers and florists claiming a religious exemption to the requirement for equal accommodation of goods and services.
By law, the requirement exists, but its also possible that demands could be made for goods and services strictly as harassment and intimidation. For instance, custom pastries and floral arrangements for people and groups hostile to the people providing the service, which goes way beyond simply extending the reciprocal courtesy of not requesting something from someone who in good concience feels they cannot provide the service.
How should this be adjudicated?

Harassment like you describe certainly wrong, if and when it happens. But at least the harassed providers would get paid. If the whole thing stops being an issue, the motivation for any such harassment goes away, I think. Don't think we need to complicate the law here.

Pio1980
10-08-2017, 11:59 PM
You have a succinct perception of the state of affairs with regard to the second amendment.

What would be your feelings if you had to give up writing?

Censorship is something that has come up against the 1st amendment thanx to our fake potus' deflections on his authoritarian incompetence.

What I'd like is some input on justifying the 2nd amendment without its militia context, essentially granting any villiage idiot or town terror absolute permit to accumulate a personal arsenal of military grade weaponry to the extent of their ability to acquire it without limitation, subject to accountability only after flagrant abuse resulting in physical harm to others.
What exactly is the purpose of the second minus its clearly delineated and obsolete rationale?

donquixote99
10-09-2017, 06:11 AM
Well, second-amendment people regard self-defense as a natural right, and many would put hunting in that category as well. One thus has a right to the necessary means. In the case of self-defense, it is typically pointed out that a defender should not have to face a better-armed criminal.

Pio1980
10-09-2017, 06:39 AM
I don't know that hunting game is a "natural" right any more than impregnating any female slower than a given males' ability to catch them is a natural right. Otherwise, Wildlife husbandry is an important aspect to any permitted responsible hunting program and I have no objections whatsover to fostering responsible mentoring of such.

There is something fundamentally wrong with having to defend oneself mainly against fellow citizens because the culture and laws give them unlimited access to offensive arms. Unfortunately, that is my reason for keeping them here. Someone will always be better armed, but just a Mossberg and buckshot is formidable home defense against most in the event of a hostile confrontation. Scalia saw the right to own and use a handgun for household defense under the 2nd, nothing further.