Things are tough all over.

[Charles]

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126806429

Chas

[merrylander]

Pretty much supports my position that legalizing drugs would put the druglords out of business.

[noonereal]

Pretty much supports my position that legalizing drugs would put the druglords out of business.

right again

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/seventy-eight-members-and-associates-of-newburgh-ny-bloods-and-latin-kings-charged-with-narcotics-trafficking-crimes-93708809.html

78 arrested in one very very small city in the lazy Hudson Valley
(total population only 28,000.)

all very violent folks. Took years of work and 600 agents. Imagine the cost.

[Charles]

Pretty much supports my position that legalizing drugs would put the druglords out of business.

If there's a lesson to be learned, that would be it.

Chas

[Sandy G]

Every week down here, they find & have to clean up, the remnants of a meth lab. This involves moon suits, hazmat teams, the whole 9 yards. Muy expensivo. The good thing is, however, SOMETIMES, a meth lab blows up, & takes a few idiots w/it.

[Grumpy]

2k a pound ? Dang, I remember it was 400...

[hillbilly]

Every week down here, they find & have to clean up, the remnants of a meth lab. This involves moon suits, hazmat teams, the whole 9 yards. Muy expensivo. The good thing is, however, SOMETIMES, a meth lab blows up, & takes a few idiots w/it.


Yeah, it's bad alright. I didn't know that the law here has changed until I went to the dollar store last week to buy two cans of spray paint to paint a rebuilt Ford engine. They I-DEED me to make sure I was 30 years old. I thanked them for the complement because I'm 41, lol. When did they pass the ' must be 30 to buy spray paint law '? Are that many foolish people really huffin' the shit? :confused:

[merrylander]

Probably spray painting buildings with "art"

[Charles]

Every week down here, they find & have to clean up, the remnants of a meth lab. This involves moon suits, hazmat teams, the whole 9 yards. Muy expensivo. The good thing is, however, SOMETIMES, a meth lab blows up, & takes a few idiots w/it.

They used to have a list of things the meth cooks buy posted at the hardware store.

Coffee filters, muriatic acid, and lye come to mind. I think they use it to refine cheap cold medicine.

Chas

[piece-itpete]

There's a line, and legalizing stuff like meth crosses it imho.

The poor CA growers, clamoring for years for legalization and bam! Monstano and ADM will wipe the floor with them.

Pete

[Boreas]

There's a line, and legalizing stuff like meth crosses it imho.

The poor CA growers, clamoring for years for legalization and bam! Monstano and ADM will wipe the floor with them.

Pete

Monsanto and ADM will be the Budweisers of the legal pot industry. The California growers will go for "niche markets". They'll become "micro-growers" just like all the micro-brewers.

John

[piece-itpete]

That occured to me too, but it is for the medical industry so I'm guessing the quality pumped out by the big boys will be excellent and consistant.

ADM - 'price fixers to the world'.

Pete

[merrylander]

From Monsanto? You have to be joking.

[BlueStreak]

That occured to me too, but it is for the medical industry so I'm guessing the quality pumped out by the big boys will be excellent and consistant.

ADM - 'price fixers to the world'.

Pete

And full of fillers and additives to make it more "cost effective" and addictive...............Kinda like tobacco. Don't try to argue with me on this one, Pete. I have some direct experience, seeing how industry constantly strives to charge you more and/or give you less. I sit in the meetings. In my industry the new buzzword is "fluff". And it means just that; "How can we fluff the product so that it looks like the same amount, but the weight per unit is 3-4 ounces less?" They are actively ripping us off. And the crazy thing is that we've been conditioned to thank them for it...............:rolleyes:

Regards,
Dave

[BlueStreak]

There's a line, and legalizing stuff like meth crosses it imho.

The poor CA growers, clamoring for years for legalization and bam! Monstano and ADM will wipe the floor with them.

Pete


Agreed. Pot is only so bad. I've known folks who smoked it for decades, maybe once or twice a month and function just fine in their private and professional lives. I can't really say I've seen marijuana ruin anyones life.
But I have seen alcohol, cocaine, meth, LSD, heroin and the other "hard" drugs wreak havoc. At it's worst pot might make an individual lazy and forgetfull. I've seen the others I listed, including alcohol, turn people into raging lunatics.

So, yeah. I agree with you 100% on that one, Pete.

Dave

[Sandy G]

"Lazy & Forgetful" ?!? Hell, I'm there already...An' I ain't had a toke in at least 25 years....(grin)

[Grumpy]

Just cause its legal, in states such as Michigan, good luck finding a doc to perscribe it. The docs cannot find their way out of pharma's back pocket.

[BlueStreak]

Just cause its legal, in states such as Michigan, good luck finding a doc to perscribe it. The docs cannot find their way out of pharma's back pocket.


I take it you've been trying?

Dave

[Twodogs]

Somebody needs to call my guy and let him know prices are down. I doubt he'll take my word for it.:rolleyes:

[Fast_Eddie]

There's a line, and legalizing stuff like meth crosses it imho.

The poor CA growers, clamoring for years for legalization and bam! Monstano and ADM will wipe the floor with them.

Pete

Let me get this straight Pete.

1. Government should decided what I do with my free time and my money, not me.

2. Government should infringe on private industry and not allow them to supply a product people want.

Have I got that right? What else should government be allowed to tell me I can't do? What other products should they keep me away from? Cigarettes are bad for me, should we outlaw them? Shut down the tobacco companies for the good of socieity?

[noonereal]

There's a line, and legalizing stuff like meth crosses it imho.



I certainly respect your opinion but I can't see the positive in it except that it makes us "feel good" emotionally as we all understand it is a bad thing. But practically speaking, what's the downside?

[Charles]

I certainly respect your opinion but I can't see the positive in it except that it makes us "feel good" emotionally as we all understand it is a bad thing. But practically speaking, what's the downside?

Meth is some bad news shit. But we don't live in a perfect world, and no matter how we try, we never will.

I still think that if you gave everyone in America a 55 gallon barrel on it, the one's who were so inclined would kill themselves with it, and everyone else would set it out with their trash.

And it would take the money out of it.

Chas

[Boreas]

Angel dust and ecstasy are a couple of other drugs that are murderous. These two and meth are so seriously bad that I don't think legalization would seriously increase the number of users. It would, however, increase the likelihood that users would seek help (same for heroin) because there would be no fear of imprisonment to keep users on the street.

John

[merrylander]

If some folks want to fry their brains (or what passes for their brains) on dope they will do it and legal or illegal you wont stop them.

[JCricket]

I certainly respect your opinion but I can't see the positive in it except that it makes us "feel good" emotionally as we all understand it is a bad thing. But practically speaking, what's the downside?

first downside, if it is legal, then we as americans have to pay the extra costs of insurance to cover the health care needed to take care of the folks who use it. 2nd downside, if all drugs were legal, then we might not have as much violence - think of all the DEA, FBI, local police that would lose their job.

If it were legal, it would be one more area that could no longer be politicized(oh wait, what about roe v wade) - scratch that.

I am serious about the first example, the others, I am in honest mode today - so no.
Mark

[piece-itpete]

Let me get this straight Pete.

1. Government should decided what I do with my free time and my money, not me.

2. Government should infringe on private industry and not allow them to supply a product people want.

Have I got that right? What else should government be allowed to tell me I can't do? What other products should they keep me away from? Cigarettes are bad for me, should we outlaw them? Shut down the tobacco companies for the good of socieity?

Tell me how that fits re: handguns.

Really, at the State level and certainly at the local level we should be free to do as we wish. Free.

If that means we decide smoking is bad we can ban it. If that means we want open carry with no permit fine. At the State level.


I certainly respect your opinion but I can't see the positive in it except that it makes us "feel good" emotionally as we all understand it is a bad thing. But practically speaking, what's the downside?

Brother, come up here for a visit and I'll show you. It doesn't show in the suburbs or gentrified city, you have to go to the places where there's little hope to begin with.

Have a look at meth:

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=meth%20mouth&rlz=1R2GGLD_enUS341&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi

Pete

[merrylander]

first downside, if it is legal, then we as americans have to pay the extra costs of insurance to cover the health care needed to take care of the folks who use it. 2nd downside, if all drugs were legal, then we might not have as much violence - think of all the DEA, FBI, local police that would lose their job.

If it were legal, it would be one more area that could no longer be politicized(oh wait, what about roe v wade) - scratch that.

I am serious about the first example, the others, I am in honest mode today - so no.
Mark

I imagine that we are paying those cost today, plus all the costs of keeping small dealers locked up.

If they really believe it is "The war on drugs" then do battle, take out a few drug lords and everything around them.

[Fast_Eddie]

Tell me how that fits re: handguns.

Really, at the State level and certainly at the local level we should be free to do as we wish. Free.

If that means we decide smoking is bad we can ban it. If that means we want open carry with no permit fine. At the State level.

First, wasn't saying it was my point of view, I was saying it was yours.

Handguns- here's the difference. If I go buy meth, I'm an idiot. Rot my brain, my body and my teeth. I might kill me with meth.

With a hand guy, I might kill you. My rights end where yours begin. If I can't walk down a city street without a reasonable assurance I'll make it to the other end alive I'm not "free".

Here's the other thing, not many people want to ban handguns outright. I don't. I do think it's appropriate to outlaw them in some large cities. We're not willing to pay enough taxes to support enough police to enforce our laws, so I'm in favor of doing what we can to keep things safer. Denver is pretty safe, but if I lived in D.C. I'd want to see fewer hand guns around. Again, to protect my freedom to go about my business without being dead.

Having said that, I love watching the Deat Wish movies. Two ways of getting at the same point. I guess given a choice I'd pay for enough police rather than have a crazy guy "take care of things".

I had a thought about this the other day. Here in Denver we have "Colfax Ave." It had lots of drugs and hookers 'till Hickenlooper became mayor. He put in cameras and cleaned it up. Worked a treat - I'd walk that street at night at this point. Lots of bars and stuff opened up and business is thriving.

But back in the day you were as likely as not to get mugged I guess. So a bunch of overwight old guys decided they would be "Guardian Angels". You still see them walking around feeling cool in their T Shirts and bandanas. lol. Kinda funny to watch really. They have a little office and everything.

Here's the thing, if someone, I don't know, pulled a gun on me who would I really want showing up to help, a cop or a Guradian Angel? I'm going to go with the cop. So much for "government can't do anything" and we should take care of everything ourselves. These guys are the living example, and they're a bit pathetic, really. No thanks, I appreciate you're attitude, but I'll pay the taxes for a real cop. And the cameras seem to be working really, really well.

And the cops would probably have more time to take care of things like that if they weren't so busy "protecting" me from hookers. Never had a one just jump in my car, so they're not really a problem for me. Goes back to the freedome thing- or the Hooters thread. If they want to do that and some guy is stupid enough to get their disease, it's a free country. Why waste tax dollars on that?

[Fast_Eddie]

Damn I'm long winded today. Stressed out to the max. Bet I piss someone off before the end of the day.

[JCricket]

I imagine that we are paying those cost today, plus all the costs of keeping small dealers locked up.

If they really believe it is "The war on drugs" then do battle, take out a few drug lords and everything around them.


uhhh............

Good point . DOH!!!

[merrylander]

Damn I'm long winded today. Stressed out to the max. Bet I piss someone off before the end of the day.

I figure that if I don't piss someone off the day has been wasted.:p

[piece-itpete]

Handguns- here's the difference. If I go buy meth, I'm an idiot. Rot my brain, my body and my teeth. I might kill me with meth.

With a hand guy, I might kill you. My rights end where yours begin. If I can't walk down a city street without a reasonable assurance I'll make it to the other end alive I'm not "free".

Here's the other thing, not many people want to ban handguns outright. I don't. I do think it's appropriate to outlaw them in some large cities. We're not willing to pay enough taxes to support enough police to enforce our laws, so I'm in favor of doing what we can to keep things safer. Denver is pretty safe, but if I lived in D.C. I'd want to see fewer hand guns around. Again, to protect my freedom to go about my business without being dead.
Having said that, I love watching the Deat Wish movies. Two ways of getting at the same point. I guess given a choice I'd pay for enough police rather than have a crazy guy "take care of things".

I had a thought about this the other day. Here in Denver we have "Colfax Ave." It had lots of drugs and hookers 'till Hickenlooper became mayor. He put in cameras and cleaned it up. Worked a treat - I'd walk that street at night at this point. Lots of bars and stuff opened up and business is thriving.

But back in the day you were as likely as not to get mugged I guess. So a bunch of overwight old guys decided they would be "Guardian Angels". You still see them walking around feeling cool in their T Shirts and bandanas. lol. Kinda funny to watch really. They have a little office and everything.

Here's the thing, if someone, I don't know, pulled a gun on me who would I really want showing up to help, a cop or a Guradian Angel? I'm going to go with the cop. So much for "government can't do anything" and we should take care of everything ourselves. These guys are the living example, and they're a bit pathetic, really. No thanks, I appreciate you're attitude, but I'll pay the taxes for a real cop. And the cameras seem to be working really, really well.

And the cops would probably have more time to take care of things like that if they weren't so busy "protecting" me from hookers. Never had a one just jump in my car, so they're not really a problem for me. Goes back to the freedome thing- or the Hooters thread. If they want to do that and some guy is stupid enough to get their disease, it's a free country. Why waste tax dollars on that?

Amazing, the number of crimes commited by addicts. Stuff like home invasions.

"Again, to protect my freedom to go about my business without being dead."

Funny, that's why I'm FOR it :) I agree about the cops, but the Machines are more worried about patronage jobs than actually cleaning up the streets.


Damn I'm long winded today. Stressed out to the max. Bet I piss someone off before the end of the day.

I figure that if I don't piss someone off the day has been wasted.:p

Lmao!! But for some reason it feels like a loggerhead day :D

Pete

[noonereal]

first downside, if it is legal, then we as americans have to pay the extra costs of insurance to cover the health care needed to take care of the folks who use it.

what extra costs????????



We eliminate a ton of crime, we raise major revenues from taxes, we keep society as a whole healthier.

What is the downside?

(I have no clue what you mean by the healthcare statement)

[noonereal]

Brother, come up here for a visit and I'll show you. It doesn't show in the suburbs or gentrified city, you have to go to the places where there's little hope to begin with.

Have a look at meth:

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=meth%20mouth&rlz=1R2GGLD_enUS341&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi

Pete

Pete, you did not answer my question. What is the downside practically speaking? Do you think more people will do these insidious drugs because they are legal? Is that your point? If that were the case I'd agree with you.

I'll ask again, what is the downside to legalizing drugs?

[piece-itpete]

Hardcore drug addicts are a serious threat to public safety, is the main reason.
It's like having criminally insane people wandering among us.

I also think it's a bad idea to put what amounts to a stamp of approval on these horrible things. I've got some dead friends...

Pete

[noonereal]

If I go buy meth, I'm an idiot. Rot my brain, my body and my teeth. I might kill me with meth.


Not only that any legalization of drugs legislation would incorporate protections as with alcohol. In the case of "hard drug" users, one would need to carry an "addict card" (as one does now in NYC to receive and carry clean needles).

[noonereal]

Hardcore drug addicts are a serious threat to public safety, is the main reason.

Who is disputing that?



I also think it's a bad idea to put what amounts to a stamp of approval on these horrible things. I've got some dead friends...



Exactly. A moral dilemma overpowering a reasoned approach.

This is why drugs will not be legalized. Emotion trumps intellect ever time. Every study shows this.

[Fast_Eddie]

Hardcore drug addicts are a serious threat to public safety, is the main reason.
It's like having criminally insane people wandering among us.

Key word being "are". The are, right now, a serious threat. Not "would be if". What if all their jack was taxes and the money used to pay for police and treatment?

[Fast_Eddie]

Emotion trumps intellect ever time. Every study shows this.

Brother, that is the most true thing ever posted in this forum.

[piece-itpete]

Once again, the #1 reason is public safety. So the taxes they'd pay would help pay for police to bust them when they're rolling seniors? :confused:

And giving the stamp of approval isn't emotion.

Pete

[Fast_Eddie]

Once again, the #1 reason is public safety. So the taxes they'd pay would help pay for police to bust them when they're rolling seniors? :confused:

And giving the stamp of approval isn't emotion.

Pete

I just have to go back to your analogy. When ever someone brings up any kind of gun control we're told "guns don't kill people". And then when we point out statistics that show more guns does indeed mean more dead people we're told "well, murder is already illegal".

Well Pete, home invasion is already illegal. How do you square the two?

[piece-itpete]

Legal gun ownership drives murder rates up? Ohio found differently before approving concealed carry.

Pete

[noonereal]

Once again, the #1 reason is public safety. So the taxes they'd pay would help pay for police to bust them when they're rolling seniors? :confused:

And giving the stamp of approval isn't emotion.

Pete

Public safety would unquestionably be improved through the legalization of drugs as it was when prohibition ended.

Again, can you find any positive in keeping drugs illegal?
and no one is giving a stamp of approval, I am suggesting legalizing it as a non emotional positive approach to a serious problem.
Keeping them illegal does not make the problem go away, it's more like putting a pillow over your head and hiding.

[piece-itpete]

Ever hear of Needle Park?

http://www.justice.gov/dea/ongoing/zurich.html

Pete

[USAaOK]

Pretty much supports my position that legalizing drugs would put the druglords out of business.

100% Agreed. Tax the crap out of it and our economy will do FAR better than it's doing now. :)

[noonereal]

Ever hear of Needle Park?

http://www.justice.gov/dea/ongoing/zurich.html

Pete

who here advocated a "needle park?"

Did you read your link?

"the Swiss government, like other governments in Europe, developed consumption rooms to provide a "clean and safe" environment for addicts to inject heroin under medical supervision."

Sounds like a plan, no?

[piece-itpete]

Sounds like giving it a stamp of approval. Will I get free drinks if I want?

Pete

[noonereal]

Sounds like giving it a stamp of approval. Will I get free drinks if I want?

Pete

That my point, you are having a difficult time supporting legalized drugs because it is distasteful not because it is a bad idea.

[piece-itpete]

Please explain why on earth I should support some bums' habit? Isn't that a bit silly?

Pete

[noonereal]

Please explain why on earth I should support some bums' habit? Isn't that a bit silly?

Pete

who asked you to support anyones habit?

Honest, what do you mean?

[Twodogs]

Shut down the tobacco companies for the good of socieity?

I'd vote yes on that one.:)

[Charles]

I'd vote yes on that one.:)

DogMan, I never figgered ya for an uplifter!!!

Tobacco probably wasn't so bad, back when they sold you tobacco. Banning "taylor mades" and reducing folks to stuffing it in a corncob pipe or rolling it up in "Old Country Boys" would eliminate the problem.

How much tobacco could anyone smoke under those conditions?

Chas

[piece-itpete]

who asked you to support anyones habit?

Honest, what do you mean?

This:



"the Swiss government, like other governments in Europe, developed consumption rooms to provide a "clean and safe" environment for addicts to inject heroin under medical supervision."

Sounds like a plan, no?

Pete

[noonereal]

This:



Pete

Good Stuff!

you are finally on board with legalized drugS!

I have done my work well! :)