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piece-itpete
06-02-2010, 10:59 AM
So, Israel protects itself (it has every right to do so), and they're the BAD guy?

And Turkey is becoming more and more Islamicist. Bad news for NATO.

Pete

finnbow
06-02-2010, 11:09 AM
I have mixed feelings about this story. Surely, Israel has a right to defend itself. OTOH, the boat contained no weapons and was 70 miles out in international waters where Israel had no right to board the ship.

After the boarding (of questionable legality), the Israelis were a bit heavy-handed in killing 9 folks onboard. There was a former US State Dep't. official on board who casts a different light upon what occurred than the Israelis did.

Without judging the specific merits of this case, I personally see more benefit from an alliance with Turkey than with Israel.

piece-itpete
06-02-2010, 11:29 AM
Israel did indeed have the right to board the ship in international waters according to the US State Department.

If that collection of terrorists tried landing here what do you think we would've done?

And if they attacked our guys with metal pipes, what would we have done?

Let's have Turkey join the EU so they can travel Europe without passports. Why is that a problem?

Pete

PS - what the hell was the former US State Dep't. official doing with those people?

Boreas
06-02-2010, 11:52 AM
So, Israel protects itself (it has every right to do so), and they're the BAD guy?

Absurd! The people in this convoy consisted of peace activists from all over the world, Nobel Prize winners, Israeli Members of Parliament but no militants or terrorists. The cargo was strictly humanitarian aid for the isolated, blockaded citizens of Gaza. It was thoroughly inspected by the Turkish government (an ally of Israel) and declared to be free of anything other than what it was declared to be: HUMANITARIAN AID FOR A MILLION STARVING PEOPLE LIVING IN A CITY THAT WAS BOMBED FLAT AND THEN BLOCKADED BY THE ISRAELIS.

And Turkey is becoming more and more Islamicist. Bad news for NATO.

Source, please.

John

Boreas
06-02-2010, 11:57 AM
If that collection of terrorists tried landing here what do you think we would've done?

Collection of terrorists?????

Let's have Turkey join the EU so they can travel Europe without passports. Why is that a problem?

Why indeed!

PS - what the hell was the former US State Dep't. official doing with those people?

Or, for that matter, what were sitting members of the Knesset doing on board. What's the matter, Pete? Doesn't this square with your "terrorist" theory? :)

John

piece-itpete
06-02-2010, 12:41 PM
Word is that there was, um, interesting things happening aboard the 6th ship. We shall see.

You want to let a Turkey-inspected ship into New York without OUR inspection? Hello Hamas. This whole thing is a stunt and a dumb one at that. Sadly it appears to be working, with the left worldwide gleefully joining their friends like Iran, Syria, etc in condemning the country they have sworn to destroy.

Ah, these nobel prizewinning peace activists from around the world:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded

Let's see what comes of this. Turkey is talking war, and there is a 7th ship on the way.

Pete

PS millions of tons of humanitarian aid goes to Palestine every year. Why isn't that a problem?

finnbow
06-02-2010, 01:10 PM
Ah, these nobel prizewinning peace activists from around the world:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded

Let's see what comes of this. Turkey is talking war, and there is a 7th ship on the way.

Pete

PS millions of tons of humanitarian aid goes to Palestine every year. Why isn't that a problem?

Depending on one's point-of-view, the armed Israelis boarding this ship in international waters were pirates in the eyes of the law. Perhaps the less-than-friendly greeting party was appropriate under the circumstances.

BTW, the government in place in the Gaza strip was chosen in an election that we supported until the wrong party won.

Boreas
06-02-2010, 01:16 PM
Word is that there was, um, interesting things happening aboard the 6th ship. We shall see.

No doubt we shall see that the IDF is propagandizing again.

You want to let a Turkey-inspected ship into New York without OUR inspection? Hello Hamas.

Hell, no! I want to sink the fucker in international waters!

Pete, we're not talking about inspecting ships in port. Of course, the ship should have been allowed into port in Gaza and then inspected by Israeli port authorities. Then any legitimate humanitarian aid supplies should have been allowed in!

This whole thing is a stunt and a dumb one at that.

Yeah, it's almost as bad as all those boatloads of Jewish refugees defying the British blockade of Palestine in the late '40s. The nerve of those people!

Sadly it appears to be working, with the left worldwide gleefully joining their friends like Iran, Syria, etc in condemning the country they have sworn to destroy.

Iran is one thing but Bashar al Assad is not his father. I think we're going to see a moderate, relatively secular Syria with good relations with the US and Israel. I hope so anyway.

Ah, these nobel prizewinning peace activists from around the world:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded

Video courtesy of the IDF!

Ever hear of Mairead Corrigan?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mairead_Corrigan

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/northern_ireland/10212955.stm

Let's see what comes of this. Turkey is talking war, and there is a 7th ship on the way.

I don't think they are. They're calling for an international investigation of the assault and are "re-evaluating their relationship" with Israel but not war. for one thing, such talk would scupper their chances for entry into the EU.

PS millions of tons of humanitarian aid goes to Palestine every year. Why isn't that a problem?

Why is it?

None of that aid is getting to Gaza. Gaza is what this is about, you know.

John

piece-itpete
06-02-2010, 01:17 PM
In the eyes of international law they weren't pirates. If they wanted a fight they sure got one!

And Hitler was elected.

Btw, rereading my last post I apologize, it really reads harshly.

Pete

Boreas
06-02-2010, 01:19 PM
BTW, the government in place in the Gaza strip was chosen in an election that we supported until the wrong party won.

But Rupert Murdoch's WSJ refers to the current situation as having occurred since Hamas "siezed control" of Gaza. (INSERT "NO" SMILEY HERE)

John

finnbow
06-02-2010, 01:44 PM
But Rupert Murdoch's WSJ refers to the current situation as having occurred since Hamas "siezed control" of Gaza. (INSERT "NO" SMILEY HERE)

John

Kinda like Obama seized control here, eh?

merrylander
06-02-2010, 01:56 PM
I saw one of the organizers on Newshour last night. Very obvious that the whole idea was to provoke the reaction that they got. Kind of like when you insult someone and he punches you in the nose. The arabs in Gaza elected a bunch of known Iranian sponsored terrorists, I am not sure what that would do for peaceful relations, but then I don't think like an arab.

finnbow
06-02-2010, 01:59 PM
I saw one of the organizers on Newshour last night. Very obvious that the whole idea was to provoke the reaction that they got.

... and Israel was just dumb/cantankerous enough to play right into their hands.

piece-itpete
06-02-2010, 02:00 PM
No doubt we shall see that the IDF is propagandizing again.



Hell, no! I want to sink the fucker in international waters!

Pete, we're not talking about inspecting ships in port. Of course, the ship should have been allowed into port in Gaza and then inspected by Israeli port authorities. Then any legitimate humanitarian aid supplies should have been allowed in!



Yeah, it's almost as bad as all those boatloads of Jewish refugees defying the British blockade of Palestine in the late '40s. The nerve of those people!



Iran is one thing but Bashar al Assad is not his father. I think we're going to see a moderate, relatively secular Syria with good relations with the US and Israel. I hope so anyway.



Video courtesy of the IDF!

Ever hear of Mairead Corrigan?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mairead_Corrigan

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/northern_ireland/10212955.stm



I don't think they are. They're calling for an international investigation of the assault and are "re-evaluating their relationship" with Israel but not war. for one thing, such talk would scupper their chances for entry into the EU.



Why is it?

None of that aid is getting to Gaza. Gaza is what this is about, you know.

John

Israel says it, it must be lies.

Israel decides where the ships will be inspected, not Gaza, not Turkey.

Turkey is sure talking the talk right now, we'll see. "Re evaluating" means suspending diplomatic ties?

"Following the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict, an international conference took place in Sharm El-Sheikh, Egypt, where donors pledged almost $4.5 billion for the resonstruction of Gaza. These funds bypass Hamas, since the PNA, in collaboration with the donor community, has taken the leadership in delivering and distributing the assistance.[51]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_aid_to_Palestinians

So yes Gaza is receiving aid in spite of the evil Israelis. As a matter of fact the aid on the 'flotilla' is being trucked in as we speak.

Pete

finnbow
06-02-2010, 02:03 PM
Israel decides where the ships will be inspected, not Gaza, not Turkey.


Are you OK with the Somalis "inspecting" ships in international waters off their coast as well?

piece-itpete
06-02-2010, 02:17 PM
Israel inspecting ships coming through their declared blockade (perfectly legal) is a whole hell of a lot different than pirates stealing it.

Pete

Boreas
06-02-2010, 02:50 PM
Israel says it, it must be lies.

Don't paint this (me) as anti-Israel, okay? Next it'll be anti-Semitic.

The aggressor says it. It must be suspect.

Israel decides where the ships will be inspected, not Gaza, not Turkey.

So..... this was an inspection?

Turkey is sure talking the talk right now, we'll see. "Re evaluating" means suspending diplomatic ties?

Perhaps, but "war"?

"Following the 2008–2009 Israel–Gaza conflict, an international conference took place in Sharm El-Sheikh, Egypt, where donors pledged almost $4.5 billion for the resonstruction of Gaza. These funds bypass Hamas, since the PNA, in collaboration with the donor community, has taken the leadership in delivering and distributing the assistance.[51]"

Nowhere in your citation or in the source for it does it say that these funds have actually been allocated or that any of the humanitarian aid it purchased been delivered to the Gazan people. What you have here is a $4.5 billion effort to circumvent and delegitimize the duly elected government of Gaza. The PNA, Israel and much of the world community want Hamas out of there and are prepared to see the Gazan people suffer to achieve it.

So yes Gaza is receiving aid in spite of the evil Israelis. As a matter of fact the aid on the 'flotilla' is being trucked in as we speak.

Do you actually think that would have happened without the international reaction to this wholly unwarranted attack?

John

Boreas
06-02-2010, 02:52 PM
Israel inspecting ships coming through their declared blockade (perfectly legal) is a whole hell of a lot different than pirates stealing it.

Pete

Establishing a blockade which declares a "no-go zone" in international waters isn't legal.

John

merrylander
06-02-2010, 02:54 PM
One thing that puzzles me about all this sympathy toward these arabs. I have a great deal of trouble scaring up sympathy for people who brain wash their young people. Then they persuade them that it is a noble act to strap on an explosive vest and detonate it in a crowded restaurant, or on a packed bus. I have difficulty in seeing the nobility of such acts. Or when these 'people' fire rockets from a school yard knowing that it is a simple matter to plot trajectory and return fire will hit the school yard.

This mentality is beyond my comprehension, much like the car bomb cowards who sat two children in the back of the car to make it seem innocuous. Then they ran from the car and detonated it - with the children still inside. I find such people capable of any moral depravity.

merrylander
06-02-2010, 02:55 PM
Establishing a blockade which declares a "no-go zone" in international waters isn't legal.

John

Guess we broke the law with the Cuba missile blockade then?:rolleyes:

Boreas
06-02-2010, 02:56 PM
This mentality is beyond my comprehension, much like the car bomb cowards who sat two children in the back of the car to make it seem innocuous. Then they ran from the car and detonated it - with the children still inside. I find such people capable of any moral depravity.

Ever read up on the Boer War?

John

Boreas
06-02-2010, 03:01 PM
Guess we broke the law with the Cuba missile blockade then?:rolleyes:

Yup!

John

piece-itpete
06-02-2010, 03:05 PM
Don't paint this (me) as anti-Israel, okay? Next it'll be anti-Semitic.

The aggressor says it. It must be suspect.



So..... this was an inspection?



Perhaps, but "war"?



Nowhere in your citation or in the source for it does it say that these funds have actually been allocated or that any of the humanitarian aid it purchased been delivered to the Gazan people. What you have here is a $4.5 billion effort to circumvent and delegitimize the duly elected government of Gaza. The PNA, Israel and much of the world community want Hamas out of there and are prepared to see the Gazan people suffer to achieve it.



Do you actually think that would have happened without the international reaction to this wholly unwarranted attack?

John

I don't think you're anti semitic John, but anything Israel actually says will be dismissed out of hand by the folks throwing a fit.

Inspection, seizure, whatever really.

Not a war yet, and probably not. But Turkey is really huffing and puffing :)

Just because it was elected doesn't make it good or deserving of support. If a new ruler in Mexico was elected and swore to destroy us, and started tossing bombs at us, guess what would happen?

Establishing a blockade which declares a "no-go zone" in international waters isn't legal.

John

I'm sure Obama will clear this up shortly.

Pete

piece-itpete
06-02-2010, 03:07 PM
... but then I don't think like an arab.

Thank goodness for that Rob :)

Pete

merrylander
06-02-2010, 03:07 PM
Ever read up on the Boer War?

John

Not especially, I have read about Armenian genocide, or how the Kurds had their land stolen by Turkey and Iraq. Note that the Kurds stand up and fight, no suicide bombers.

As to Israelies stealing arab land, just who did the arabs steal it from? Palestine is simply a figment of Lord Balfour's imagination, just as Jordan is.

merrylander
06-02-2010, 03:11 PM
Yup!

John

Everybody's doing it, may as well get used to it.:p

piece-itpete
06-02-2010, 03:36 PM
I was going by a Washington Post commentator:

"The raid took place on a ship that was apparently unarmed, in international waters. But Allen Weiner, a former State Department lawyer and legal counsel at the U.S. Embassy at The Hague, said Israel was technically operating legally.

"Israel claims to be in a state of armed conflict with a non-state group, with Hamas in Gaza. Under the laws of war, a blockage is legal," said Weiner, who teaches at Stanford Law School. "That includes operating on the high seas. You don't have to wait until you are on territorial waters."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/02/AR2010060200858_3.html?wpisrc=nl_politics&sid=ST2010053101699

Pete

Grumpy
06-02-2010, 04:28 PM
Palastine screwed itself in 48. There will never be peace there, period..

Zeke
06-02-2010, 04:45 PM
... and Israel was just dumb/cantankerous enough to play right into their hands.

I think -- as I've mentioned before but everyone ignored -- that's called, "being Israel."

Israel, for decades, has reminded me of my beagle, acting tough on the support of my loving, now deceased, German Shepherd/Rotty mix: known in this model as "America."

1. They need to be reminded the Big Stick isn't theirs.
2. They need to remove their "Never Again" head from their posterior.

That's not anti-semitic, it's REALITY.

finnbow
06-02-2010, 05:12 PM
One thing that puzzles me about all this sympathy toward these arabs. I have a great deal of trouble scaring up sympathy for people who brain wash their young people.

While the Arabs can, at times, be less than charming, I think our foreign policy needs to serve our own national interests first and foremost, and not Israel's. Our blind and unwavering support of Israel doesn't do us any good when you figure that 20% of the world population is Muslim and 2/3 of world oil is controlled by Muslim countries. It seems the only necessity in blindly supporting Israel is that it appears essential to an American politician's ambitions.

I'd support a bit of Realpolitik when it comes to our relations to the Muslim world.

Charles
06-02-2010, 06:37 PM
Guess we broke the law with the Cuba missile blockade then?:rolleyes:

Technically, that was a quarantine. A blockade is an act of war. Legal mumbo jumbo for pretty much the same thing.

I'm with Israel. At your throat or at your knees seems to sum up much of the Arab world.

Chas

Zeke
06-02-2010, 07:00 PM
I'd support a bit of Realpolitik when it comes to our relations to the Muslim world.

Precisely.

I'm with Israel.

If they didn't -- regularly -- act the fool, I'd consider it.

In the current model, Israel is like a belligerent acquaintance who walks beside you into a tavern, sweeps everyone's beer off the bar because he feels threatened, then looks for backing when folks get riled: while simultaneously complaining that everyone is picking on him...

Support of such behavior is NOT in our best interest, even if the patrons are assholes. :mad:

Charles
06-02-2010, 07:35 PM
I always though supporting a nuclear armed Israel in the Middle East was a textbook example of realpolitic.

It's the Middle East, you have to do the best you can.

Chas

Zeke
06-02-2010, 07:40 PM
I always though supporting a nuclear armed Israel in the Middle East was a textbook example of realpolitic.

It's the Middle East, you have to do the best you can.

Chas

Query: Is unilaterally supporting Israel "the best we can?" :eek:

Charles
06-02-2010, 07:51 PM
Query: Is unilaterally supporting Israel "the best we can?" :eek:

Hard to tell. What worked yesterday may not work today.

But they do give us a certain amount of leverage.

Chas

Boreas
06-02-2010, 09:13 PM
Well, I guess I have to reconsider my position on this raid. It seems that Israel had "no other choice". Israel apparently wasn't dealing with "The Love Boat" but "The Hate Boat". Plus it seems that the ship wasn't trying to deliver humanitarian aid but was just trying to break the blockade. (By the way, Ban Ki-moon, the UN Secretary General has demanded that the blockade be lifted.)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10219391.stm

John

Boreas
06-02-2010, 09:23 PM
Oh, and if you want another example of the kinds of things Israel sometimes has no choice but to do, read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

John

BlueStreak
06-03-2010, 12:00 AM
Precisely.



If they didn't -- regularly -- act the fool, I'd consider it.

In the current model, Israel is like a belligerent acquaintance who walks beside you into a tavern, sweeps everyone's beer off the bar because he feels threatened, then looks for backing when folks get riled: while simultaneously complaining that everyone is picking on him...

Support of such behavior is NOT in our best interest, even if the patrons are assholes. :mad:

Amen.

Precisely why I say stand back and let the Israelis and Arabs have at it. If Israel kicks ass,----good for them. If they get their asses kicked----Oh well, I guess folks will have to cancel their trip to "The Holy Land".

Dave

BlueStreak
06-03-2010, 12:07 AM
So, is terrorism okay, when it's Israeli terrorists?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

Maybe this is where the Arabs got the idea? "Hey, it worked for them!......."

Dave

Zeke
06-03-2010, 01:37 AM
So, is terrorism okay, when it's Israeli terrorists?

It is if you ask Israel or their apologists.

I would just prefer that the United States of America cease being one.

Here's the rub. For reasons that I cannot comprehend, Israelis get a pass on everything. "Never again," preemptive action, protecting our -- their? -- "homeland," etc. It's ALL a grotesque rationalization for doing things that, in a vacuum of true morality, deserves SCORN.

Yes, 1938-1945, specifically, gave it to Jews in the shorts (just like 1492-1890 wasn't so great for American Indians). Fine. We all get that. But, if a Lakota rides a one-horse mandate off his allotted reservation, cloaked in entitlement, committing world recognizable criminal acts in the name of an elitist birthright, we call a spade a spade and act accordingly.

But, if it's an Israeli, folks fear being branded an anti-semite with such fervor that even questioning is perceived as evil. :rolleyes:

That's crap.

Grumpy
06-03-2010, 06:35 AM
So, is terrorism okay, when it's Israeli terrorists?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

Maybe this is where the Arabs got the idea? "Hey, it worked for them!......."

Dave


Hardly...

Grumpy
06-03-2010, 06:37 AM
It is if you ask Israel or their apologists.

I would just prefer that the United States of America cease being one.

Here's the rub. For reasons that I cannot comprehend, Israelis get a pass on everything. "Never again," preemptive action, protecting our -- their? -- "homeland," etc. It's ALL a grotesque rationalization for doing things that, in a vacuum of true morality, deserves SCORN.

Yes, 1938-1945, specifically, gave it to Jews in the shorts (just like 1492-1890 wasn't so great for American Indians). Fine. We all get that. But, if a Lakota rides a one-horse mandate off his allotted reservation, cloaked in entitlement, committing world recognizable criminal acts in the name of an elitist birthright, we call a spade a spade and act accordingly.

But, if it's an Israeli, folks fear being branded an anti-semite with such fervor that even questioning is perceived as evil. :rolleyes:

That's crap.


If this works in you justifying your skewed opinion then hey cool.

merrylander
06-03-2010, 07:29 AM
Actually they do not get a pass on everything, the UN observers in Gaza have amply demonstrated their bias in the past and will no doubt continue to do so in the future.

As to the muslim world I still recall the pictures of them dancing in the streets after 9/11, sorry if I was mistaken, now what exactly was it that all the people in the twin towers were guilty of?

piece-itpete
06-03-2010, 08:37 AM
Hey, we should always ally ourselves with folks who teach hate strap bombs on children and use women as shields, it seems to be considered the high ground nowadays....

Pete

Charles
06-03-2010, 08:43 AM
Actually they do not get a pass on everything, the UN observers in Gaza have amply demonstrated their bias in the past and will no doubt continue to do so in the future.

As to the muslim world I still recall the pictures of them dancing in the streets after 9/11, sorry if I was mistaken, now what exactly was it that all the people in the twin towers were guilty of?

Is Sudan still on the UN's Human Right Commission?

Chas

finnbow
06-03-2010, 09:00 AM
Hey, we should always ally ourselves with folks who teach hate strap bombs on children and use women as shields, it seems to be considered the high ground nowadays....

Pete

I hear ya, Pete. The Arabs' tactics are despicable, but who says we need to pick sides in this fight, particularly when it's not in our national interests to do so? Is there anybody here who thinks our unwavering support of Israel has anything to do with something other than our own domestic electoral politics? I don't.

Similarly, I don't think our policies toward Cuba derive from anything other than the political importance of the Cuban voting block in South Florida, a key swing state.

In both cases, our politicians support policies that are not in the best interests of the nation in the service of their own electoral interests.

piece-itpete
06-03-2010, 09:09 AM
I have no doubt that the Mossad is our best source of intelligence in the ME.

Pete

finnbow
06-03-2010, 09:27 AM
I have no doubt that the Mossad is our best source of intelligence in the ME.

Pete

What would you expect from a country that we give $3 Billion in foreign aid to every year and in whose behalf we have vetoed 29 UN Security Council resolutions?

Also, you can be sure that Israel shades the "intelligence" they give us to support their own security interests. They didn't exactly tell us that Saddam didn't have WMD's after all. Also, these "allies" sure seem to implant a bunch of spies into our own intelligence services (e.g., Jonathan Pollard).

You can't really believe that we get as much as we give (on all fronts, not just intelligence) in the service of this relationship.

Zeke
06-03-2010, 10:06 AM
You can't really believe that we get as much as we give (on all fronts, not just intelligence) in the service of this relationship.

And, of course, that's when I break up with her... :D

This isn't complex.

Zeke
06-03-2010, 10:11 AM
If this works in you justifying your skewed opinion then hey cool.

Wouldst be that it were "skewed." :rolleyes:

That would be a LOT easier to deal with than the illogical apologism tied to guilt and entitlement...

REALITY: Israel is a problem.

piece-itpete
06-03-2010, 10:14 AM
Screw our allies?

And just who would take her place?

Pete

finnbow
06-03-2010, 10:28 AM
Screw our allies?

Hell, France has been our ally longer than any country on Earth by a large measure. Without them, we probably wouldn't even exist as a country. That said, it doesn't stop our political class from taking gratuitious pot shots at France whenever we want to act tough. (Remember Freedom Fries?)

And just who would take her place?

Turkey? Incirlik Air Base (and to a lesser degree Izmir Air Base) in Turkey has been far more helpful to our national security interests over the past 60 years than Israel.

piece-itpete
06-03-2010, 10:52 AM
Potshots is one thing, when we argue with France it's a family fight between cousins :)

The current pro-Islamicist government in Turkey is a potential problem (as well shown by this farce). They're pushing for the repeal on the ban on madrasas for kids, there's a movement to discredit Ataturk (because he was a secular ruler).

Those forces are no minor matter.

Pete

finnbow
06-03-2010, 11:03 AM
The current pro-Islamicist government in Turkey is a potential problem (as well shown by this farce). They're pushing for the repeal on the ban on madrasas for kids, there's a movement to discredit Ataturk (because he was a secular ruler).

True enough. Thankfully, there's quite a lot of pushback going on against these efforts. It would be a shame to see such a wonderful country tilt back in the wrong direction. My trips to Turkey have always stood out as some of the high points of my past travels (people, sights and food are all tremendous).

I still fail to see "what's in it for us" in our relationship with Israel. Lots more heartache and hassles than it's worth IMHO. It's akin to a codependent relationship in the worst sense of the word.

BlueStreak
06-03-2010, 11:15 AM
I think some of you guys are missing my point. I'm not saying to side with the Arabs. I'm saying to step back, become neutral, and let them at long last settle it between them without interference from us. I don't hate Israel, I'm just tired of our politicians wasting time and money on someone who;

1). Obviously doesn't give a shit about establishing "peace" with their neighbors.

And,

2). Has never really done much of anything for us. "Stabilize" the region? You have GOT to be joking! Has the presence of Israel ever been a "stabilizing" influence? Spare me.

I'm sorry but the way I see it, this alliance with Israel is based on two things;

1) As Zeke stated---Guilt about the Holocaust. A horrible act perpetrated upon the Jewish that should never be forgotten or repeated. But, nonetheless, does not rationalize the mess we have now. IMHO. The Jewish are welcome to go live in a lot of nice countries, including this one.

2) Religious Hullabaloo. Christians who think Israel must be protected at all costs because of their religious beliefs. (Which, BTW, ultimately involves Jews converting or being put to death and sent into eternal damnation. Ponder the irony of THAT.)

As I stated before. If Israel wants to fight the Arabs to build their "homeland", good for them. I wish them the best of luck. But, I don't believe our government should continue to support it financially, or millitarily. If you disagree, fine. Then send them your own money, or go join the Israeli Army.

Regards,
Dave

piece-itpete
06-03-2010, 11:45 AM
Israel doesn't want 'peace'?

If our neighbors did to us what her neighbors are doing to her it'd be game over man.

Pete

BlueStreak
06-03-2010, 11:47 AM
Israel doesn't want 'peace'?

If our neighbors did to us what her neighbors are doing to her it'd be game over man.

Pete

No.

And.....vice-versa.

Dave

BlueStreak
06-03-2010, 11:49 AM
Gotta go cut the grass, before I head off to the plantation. Massa fusses when I'm late. And there's mo' rain a brewin'.

Dave

noonereal
06-03-2010, 11:54 AM
Without judging the specific merits of this case, I personally see more benefit from an alliance with Turkey than with Israel.

Turkey has been one of our strongest allies since WWII but the average American knows nothing about them and thinks they are nothing but another 3rd world middle eastern country. (Turkey is not in the middle east BTW)

We have screwed them over repeatedly and frankly if I were a Turk I'd be hard pressed to make a case for continuing to support the US. GW really treated the Turks badly.

noonereal
06-03-2010, 11:55 AM
I think some of you guys are missing my point. I'm not saying to side with the Arabs. I'm saying to step back, become neutral, and let them at long last settle it between them without interference from us. I don't hate Israel, I'm just tired of our politicians wasting time and money on someone who;

1). Obviously doesn't give a shit about establishing "peace" with their neighbors.

And,

2). Has never really done much of anything for us. "Stabilize" the region? You have GOT to be joking! Has the presence of Israel ever been a "stabilizing" influence? Spare me.

I'm sorry but the way I see it, this alliance with Israel is based on two things;

1) As Zeke stated---Guilt about the Holocaust. A horrible act perpetrated upon the Jewish that should never be forgotten or repeated. But, nonetheless, does not rationalize the mess we have now. IMHO. The Jewish are welcome to go live in a lot of nice countries, including this one.

2) Religious Hullabaloo. Christians who think Israel must be protected at all costs because of their religious beliefs. (Which, BTW, ultimately involves Jews converting or being put to death and sent into eternal damnation. Ponder the irony of THAT.)

As I stated before. If Israel wants to fight the Arabs to build their "homeland", good for them. I wish them the best of luck. But, I don't believe our government should continue to support it financially, or millitarily. If you disagree, fine. Then send them your own money, or go join the Israeli Army.

Regards,
Dave

we are Israel practically speaking

finnbow
06-03-2010, 12:51 PM
we are Israel practically speaking

Agreed. In the overall scheme of things, I think Israel has greater influence on our foreign policy than any number of our own states.

Pondering a previous statement:Potshots is one thing, when we argue with France it's a family fight between cousins I can't remember the last time a US politician (or an entire party, for that matter) dared to take public potshots at Israel. The entire GOP went ballistic when the French voiced their disagreement (correctly, might I add) with the Iraq invasion.

Hell, we get all indignant about the French not wanting Arabs in their country to wear the hijab (admittedly a dumb idea on the part of the French) while the Israelis have been treating their own Muslim citizens within their borders (not Palestinean refugees) as second-class citizens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Legal_and_political_status )for decades.

finnbow
06-03-2010, 01:19 PM
I may have to rethink my position after perusing a list (http://www.economist.com/node/16264970)of the items that the Israelis are forbidding from entering Gaza.

I guess they're afraid of being attacked by rolled up newspapers and clarinets.:( How on earth can they now justify killing 9 people (including an American citizen (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/03/AR2010060301931.html?hpid=topnews)) in an effort to keep nutmeg out of Gaza?

Boreas
06-03-2010, 01:41 PM
How on earth can they now justify killing 9 people (including an American citizen) in an effort to keep nutmeg out of Gaza?

I dunno, it's amazing what you can make with nutmeg. Egg nog, for instance.

Face it, guys. The Israelis have really screwed up badly. They've given the rest of the world an excuse not to feel guilty about what has been done to the Jews for millennia.

John

piece-itpete
06-03-2010, 02:04 PM
It's not about nutmeg, it's about weapons.

It's easy to armchair quarterback when we've already finished off our enemies.

Pete

PS: attack a soldier with a steel pipe - what do you think will happen?

merrylander
06-03-2010, 02:09 PM
Hell, we get all indignant about the French not wanting Arabs in their country to wear the hijab (admittedly a dumb idea on the part of the French) while the Israelis have been treating their own Muslim citizens within their borders (not Palestinean refugees) as second-class citizens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Legal_and_political_status )for decades.

Not such a bad idea really, you never know who is under those bourqas, as Karzai found out in Kabul yesterday. If I was to walk down the street wearing a ski mask in July it probably would not take them long to pick me up.
:rolleyes:

You want second class citizenship? Try Saudi Arabia or Egypt as a publically confessed Christian. Seriously when I was in Tel Aviv we went to an arab restaurant and the owners appeared to know and welcome my hosts. The hotel staff were mainly arabic and seemed OK - if sullen.

finnbow
06-03-2010, 02:39 PM
Seriously when I was in Tel Aviv we went to an arab restaurant and the owners appeared to know and welcome my hosts. The hotel staff were mainly arabic and seemed OK - if sullen.

Whatever their faults (and they have plenty), Arabs (and other Muslims) are among the most gracious hosts in the world. It sounds like a glittering generality, but it's true. Even in poor, repressed Arab countries, if you are a guest you are treated with amazing grace and dignity. Go from being a guest to an occupier, however, and you're in really deep $hit.

Boreas
06-03-2010, 02:43 PM
It's not about nutmeg, it's about weapons.

It's easy to armchair quarterback when we've already finished off our enemies.

Pete

PS: attack a soldier with a steel pipe - what do you think will happen?

So, we've finished off our enemies, have we? Al Qaeda is gone? The Taliban finished? All those Islamic radicals who hate us in part for our slavish devotion to Israel consigned to the ash heap of history, are they?

Pete, you're just not making any sense today.

It's about weapons and nutmeg. In other words, it's about denying the Gazans the means to vent their frustration and outrage which in turn is exacerbated by the capricious and deliberately illogical nature of the embargo and by the hardships it causes.

John

Grumpy
06-03-2010, 02:44 PM
Wouldst be that it were "skewed." :rolleyes:

That would be a LOT easier to deal with than the illogical apologism tied to guilt and entitlement...

REALITY: Israel is a problem.


Israel shields us from those that hate us.

Grumpy
06-03-2010, 02:46 PM
Turkey has been one of our strongest allies since WWII but the average American knows nothing about them and thinks they are nothing but another 3rd world middle eastern country. (Turkey is not in the middle east BTW)

We have screwed them over repeatedly and frankly if I were a Turk I'd be hard pressed to make a case for continuing to support the US. GW really treated the Turks badly.


I know not to get my butt thrown in a turkish prison :D

piece-itpete
06-03-2010, 02:48 PM
Perhaps if they didn't INVADE Israel they wouldn't be occupied. Whoa.

Will someone explain to me, why is it that the racist misogynist hatefilled cultures in the world are given a pass when dealing with Israel?

I just get that, remove the log in your own eye, and you'll be able to remove the speck in your neighbors.

Pete

Grumpy
06-03-2010, 02:48 PM
So, we've finished off our enemies, have we? Al Qaeda is gone? The Taliban finished? All those Islamic radicals who hate us in part for our slavish devotion to Israel consigned to the ash heap of history, are they?

Pete, you're just not making any sense today.

It's about weapons and nutmeg. In other words, it's about denying the Gazans the means to vent their frustration and outrage which in turn is exacerbated by the capricious and deliberately illogical nature of the embargo and by the hardships it causes.

John


Its not about land. Its about water rights. I say water bombs on egypt and let all good muslims flock to their borders.

finnbow
06-03-2010, 02:49 PM
Israel shields us from those that hate us.

:confused:

piece-itpete
06-03-2010, 02:50 PM
So, we've finished off our enemies, have we? Al Qaeda is gone? The Taliban finished? All those Islamic radicals who hate us in part for our slavish devotion to Israel consigned to the ash heap of history, are they?

Pete, you're just not making any sense today.

It's about weapons and nutmeg. In other words, it's about denying the Gazans the means to vent their frustration and outrage which in turn is exacerbated by the capricious and deliberately illogical nature of the embargo and by the hardships it causes.

John

Ask the Indians.

It's a good thing Israel doesn't vent their frustrations on their neighbors and their capricious and deliberately illogical hatred of the Jews and the hardships it causes.

Pete

merrylander
06-03-2010, 02:52 PM
Its not about land. Its about water rights. I say water bombs on egypt and let all good muslims flock to their borders.

Just so long as they all flock off.

finnbow
06-03-2010, 02:57 PM
I know not to get my butt thrown in a turkish prison :D

That movie, "Midnight Express" was a ridiculous caricature of both Turkey and the actual story written and experienced by Billy Hayes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Hayes_(writer)).

FWIW, I've travelled in over 50 countries and Turkey is, without question, the most hospitable place I've ever been.

merrylander
06-03-2010, 03:00 PM
Just as long as you are not an Armenian or a Kurd.:p

Grumpy
06-03-2010, 03:04 PM
Just so long as they all flock off.


Best laugh ive had in ages. Thanks Rob ! :D

Zeke
06-03-2010, 03:04 PM
Israel shields us from those that hate us.

I'm not certain I could disagree, more.

Israel uses the United States to shield themselves from people they have annoyed with their entitlement whining.

Grumpy
06-03-2010, 03:06 PM
That movie, "Midnight Express" was a ridiculous caricature of both Turkey and the actual story written and experienced by Billy Hayes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Hayes_(writer)).

FWIW, I've travelled in over 50 countries and Turkey is, without question, the most hospitable place I've ever been.


Are you telling me everything ive seen in the movies aint true ?

Next your gonna tell me the 3 stooges faked it !

fingers in ears. la la la la la la la...

Zeke
06-03-2010, 03:07 PM
Next your gonna tell me the 3 stooges faked it!

WHAT?!!! :eek:

finnbow
06-03-2010, 03:08 PM
Just as long as you are not an Armenian or a Kurd.:p

True dat. But even as a (decidely) ugly American, I was flabbergasted by the graciousness of the people. On my first trip to Istanbul, I was virtually unable to buy a meal for all the generosity and it was just me and my girlfriend tripping around as tourists. Amazing.

When I went to Ankara, Adana, and Izmir on business - Holy $hit. It was taken to a whole new level.

Boreas
06-03-2010, 03:21 PM
Will someone explain to me, why is it that the racist misogynist hatefilled cultures in the world are given a pass when dealing with Israel?

Nobody's giving anyone a "pass", just like we're not giving Israel a pass just because of who they're dealing with.

John

[EDIT] Well, you seem to be giving Israel a pass, little though they may deserve it.

Charles
06-03-2010, 03:50 PM
True dat. But even as a (decidely) ugly American, I was flabbergasted by the graciousness of the people. On my first trip to Istanbul, I was virtually unable to buy a meal for all the generosity and it was just me and my girlfriend tripping around as tourists. Amazing.

When I went to Ankara, Adana, and Izmir on business - Holy $hit. It was taken to a whole new level.

Love us as individuals but hate us as a nation?

Chas

finnbow
06-03-2010, 04:29 PM
Love us as individuals but hate us as a nation?

Chas

Turkey? Not at all. Where did you get that idea?

I've experienced more anti-Americanism in countries of more traditional Western allies. That said, this was before Dubya laid a big, fat turd in the world's punchbowl.

finnbow
06-03-2010, 04:46 PM
OK, this settles it:

CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER: “What exactly is the humanitarian crisis that the flotilla was actually addressing? There is none. No one is starving in Gaza.”

Charles
06-03-2010, 05:04 PM
Turkey? Not at all. Where did you get that idea?

I've experienced more anti-Americanism in countries of more traditional Western allies. That said, this was before Dubya laid a big, fat turd in the world's punchbowl.

Just an impression I had.

Chas

finnbow
06-03-2010, 06:14 PM
Just an impression I had.

Chas

We've had our nuclear weapons stationed on their soil (http://www.thebulletin.org/web-edition/features/the-status-of-us-nuclear-weapons-turkey)for over 40 years, with over 90 there now. In fact, 40 are assigned for delivery by Turkish pilots.

The Turks are among our most steadfast allies in the world and have been since the early '50's. In fact, the infamous Gary Powers U-2 spyplane mission originated from Incirlik Airbase in Turkey in 1960. The Turks are not "fair weather" friends.

finnbow
06-03-2010, 07:59 PM
This op-ed piece (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/opinion/03kristof.html?hp) by Nick Kristof is pretty interesting and revealing.

Charles
06-03-2010, 08:32 PM
We've had our nuclear weapons stationed on their soil (http://www.thebulletin.org/web-edition/features/the-status-of-us-nuclear-weapons-turkey)for over 40 years, with over 90 there now. In fact, 40 are assigned for delivery by Turkish pilots.

The Turks are among our most steadfast allies in the world and have been since the early '50's. In fact, the infamous Gary Powers U-2 spyplane mission originated from Incirlik Airbase in Turkey in 1960. The Turks are not "fair weather" friends.

I had the wrong impression.

Please excuse me.

Chas

finnbow
06-03-2010, 08:37 PM
I had the wrong impression.

Please excuse me.

Chas

No worries, mon. I had similar impressions before I went there. It's a wonderful place to visit. Really.

Charles
06-03-2010, 09:00 PM
No worries, mon. I had similar impressions before I went there. It's a wonderful place to visit. Really.

Tell me more about retiring in a Greek fishing village.

Retiring in ANY fishing village is my bag.

Chas

PS: Was watching "The Old Man and the Sea" the other nite. I could relate to the old man, especially when the sharks ate his catch. The snapping turds have got me once or twice.

Seems like "Papa" carried a BAR for situations like that. I carry a S&W.

finnbow
06-03-2010, 09:29 PM
Tell me more about retiring in a Greek fishing village.

Retiring in ANY fishing village is my bag.

Although I went to the Greek Isles seven summers in a row ('79-'85) for a couple weeks each, I'm not sure how I'd like living there in Winter or as an old(er) fart. It was probably one of my favorite places in the world back then, but I was young, single and pretty wild. Lots of good times there and each island, though similar in many ways, had a different vibe. It was insanely cheap back then, but the Euro changed all that I'm told.

Islamorada or Marathon in the Florida Keys wouldn't be a bad retirement locale for a serious fisherman. Somewhere on a semi-remote Ontario lake wouldn't be too shabby either (summers only).

BlueStreak
06-03-2010, 11:29 PM
Israel shields us from those that hate us.

Doing a damn poor job of it from what I've seen.

Dave

Zeke
06-04-2010, 02:20 AM
Doing a damn poor job of it from what I've seen.

In fact, they're a direct hindrance.

Zeke
06-04-2010, 02:20 AM
This op-ed piece (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/opinion/03kristof.html?hp) by Nick Kristof is pretty interesting and revealing.

Yes.

Good stuff.

As previously noted, Israel is acting the fool.

merrylander
06-04-2010, 07:20 AM
According to the professor of international law (Gelb? saw him on TV) the blockade is perfectly legal because Hamas has declared themselves at war with Israel. The Turkish outfit backing the flotilla is a known terrorist sympathizer. They could have routed 'humanitarian aid' through an Israeli port. What is the purpose of stopping the blockade. Seems rather obvious that it is so they can funnel even bigger and longer range Iranian rockets into Gaza. I guess they could give up the blockade and wait paitiently for the onslaught since no treaty they have signed has ever been lived up to by the arabs. The current Turkish government is hell bent to deviate from attaturk's idea of a secular government. Odd thing is that the army is supposed to remove any government that wants to deviate from secularism. Be interesting to see what develops.

merrylander
06-04-2010, 07:24 AM
OK, this settles it:

CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER: “What exactly is the humanitarian crisis that the flotilla was actually addressing? There is none. No one is starving in Gaza.”

Charlie is not one of my favourites but from what I have read elsewhere this is quite true. The problems in gaza seem to be with infrastructure (must have a right wing gummint. :p) and jobs.

piece-itpete
06-04-2010, 08:11 AM
This op-ed piece (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/opinion/03kristof.html?hp) by Nick Kristof is pretty interesting and revealing.

Once again, not a word about exactly what the 'good guys' are actually trying to accomplish and why Israel has to do this to begin with. There is a definate and clear double standard.

No worries, mon. I had similar impressions before I went there. It's a wonderful place to visit. Really.

My dad loved Turkey, he said it was a great place.

According to the professor of international law (Gelb? saw him on TV) the blockade is perfectly legal because Hamas has declared themselves at war with Israel. The Turkish outfit backing the flotilla is a known terrorist sympathizer. They could have routed 'humanitarian aid' through an Israeli port. What is the purpose of stopping the blockade. Seems rather obvious that it is so they can funnel even bigger and longer range Iranian rockets into Gaza. I guess they could give up the blockade and wait paitiently for the onslaught since no treaty they have signed has ever been lived up to by the arabs. The current Turkish government is hell bent to deviate from attaturk's idea of a secular government. Odd thing is that the army is supposed to remove any government that wants to deviate from secularism. Be interesting to see what develops.

But Israel is the bad guy Rob! Obviously no matter what, they should just leave and make the world happy.

Pete

merrylander
06-04-2010, 08:55 AM
But Israel is the bad guy Rob! Obviously no matter what, they should just leave and make the world happy.

Pete

Which no one has ever said exactly where should they go.:rolleyes:

Charles
06-04-2010, 09:05 AM
Which no one has ever said exactly where should they go.:rolleyes:

Send them to Mexico. They'd have the country straightened up and prosperous within a year...provided the rest of the world would mind their own business.

I think the Mossad could handle the drug dealers.

Chas

Boreas
06-04-2010, 09:48 AM
Which no one has ever said exactly where should they go.:rolleyes:

Nor has anyone ever said where the Palestinians should go.

John

piece-itpete
06-04-2010, 09:50 AM
The good Lord knows their 'friends' won't take them.

Pete

merrylander
06-04-2010, 12:57 PM
Nor has anyone ever said where the Palestinians should go.

John

On the contrary, during the six (or was it seven) days war the arabs told them all to leave.

Boreas
06-04-2010, 04:14 PM
On the contrary, during the six (or was it seven) days war the arabs told them all to leave.

That's a gross overstatement of reality. There are many Palestinian refugees who have settled in other Arab countries, like Jordan, Syria and Lebanon. Their degree of acceptance is fairly variable but they're there all the same, much like the Jews were present if not always welcome throughout Europe, North Africa and the Middle East after the diaspora.

John

finnbow
06-04-2010, 09:56 PM
On the day after the incident, the head of Israel's foreign intelligence service told his Parliament that Israel is "gradually turning from an asset of the United States to a burden."

This is an example of the best intelligence service in the Mideast getting something right (except perhaps for the use of the word "gradually.")

Zeke
06-05-2010, 01:18 AM
On the day after the incident, the head of Israel's foreign intelligence service told his Parliament that Israel is "gradually turning from an asset of the United States to a burden."

Seems pretty simple -- and accurate -- to me. :eek:

Refreshing truth...

merrylander
06-05-2010, 06:53 AM
One of these days I will see a post fulminating against Hamas aftter the latest suicide bombing or rocket attack, but I am not holding my breath. Double standards indeed.

Zeke
06-05-2010, 07:42 AM
One of these days I will see a post fulminating against Hamas aftter the latest suicide bombing or rocket attack, but I am not holding my breath. Double standards indeed.

If someone endeavours to justify an American alignment with Hamas, you might... :rolleyes:

Double standard? BULLSHIT.

Playing the race card? Indeed.

BlueStreak
06-05-2010, 01:56 PM
Not trying to side with Hamas. Just tired of our government supporting Zionism, which to my mind amounts to racist theocracy, a principle that somewhat resembles Islamist Caliphate, which I also oppose. I don't like either one and resent my tax money being used to support something I personally regard as being little more than an overblown fairytale--Organized Religion, ANY organized religion. Sorry, but that's how I see it and always will.

Let them duke it out. If God truly is on Israels side, then they should be fine.
Right?:rolleyes:

merrylander
06-05-2010, 02:07 PM
Which Zionism? There are only about a round dozen.:confused:

As to letting them duke it out if only they would, but the UN keeps sticking its nose in. I worked for years on ITU telecom standards (a body of the UN) and if there is a more wasteful, inefficient bunch I have yet to meet them. I note also that this "peace movement" is headquartered in Cyprus. Now there is a fine lot, we spent a goodly number of years keeping those "peaceful" bastards from each others throats.

finnbow
06-05-2010, 02:10 PM
Exactly. If it were in our national interests to hitch our wagon to Israel, fine. But I just don't see it. I believe our unwavering support of Israel brings with it more trouble from Arab nations (and the Islamic terrorist some of them support). I have no sympathy for Hamas, Hezbollah, nor the "expand Jewish settlements at all costs" crowd.

Why do we choose to make this our problem?

Boreas
06-05-2010, 02:10 PM
One of these days I will see a post fulminating against Hamas aftter the latest suicide bombing or rocket attack, but I am not holding my breath. Double standards indeed.

Rob, what do you think, that being opposed to Israel's inhumane - inhuman - treatment of ordinary Palestinians (many of whom are Christian, by the way) necessarily entails support for Hamas, their goals and the tactics they employ to achieve them? I think you know better and I think this post is unworthy of you.

John

Zeke
06-05-2010, 02:18 PM
I think you know better and I think this post is unworthy of you.

Which is, somewhat, more polite than what I said but message is same.

BlueStreak
06-05-2010, 02:27 PM
To interject a little humor;

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-june-3-2010/glenn-beck-airs-israeli-raid-footage

Regards,
Dave

merrylander
06-05-2010, 02:50 PM
Rob, what do you think, that being opposed to Israel's inhumane - inhuman - treatment of ordinary Palestinians (many of whom are Christian, by the way) necessarily entails support for Hamas, their goals and the tactics they employ to achieve them? I think you know better and I think this post is unworthy of you.

John

Look, as for the alleged inhumane treatment of arabs by jews, I did not see any sign of it when I was there. I was treated respectfully by both groups and have no complaints.

But when grown men brainwash younger men and women into being suicide bombers I find that despicable. If they believe their cause why not do the deed themselves? What I do find is near total silence as regards Hamas' tactics. Much like the muslim reaction to al-quaeda - silence.

I also think that if you were to research zionism it originated as a desire to have a homeland, the Diaspora was not exactly a volunteer movement.

I think that anyone who is capable of persuading some mother's son or daughter of strapping on an explosive vest is equally capable of commiting other foul deeds and getting it blamed on the Israelis. Like the stories of Israeli soldiers shooting teengers in the back from helicopters, they could just as easily been shot by Hamas, no one got to do an autopsy. Yet everyone seems to be convinced that these youn men in the IDF are savage barbarians. I happen to know more that a few of them and they are no different than we are.

I would simply like to see equal coverage of both sides and not the bias that I see currently. Now if that view upsets you all, so be it.

Boreas
06-05-2010, 03:08 PM
Look, as for the alleged inhumane treatment of arabs by jews, I did not see any sign of it when I was there. I was treated respectfully by both groups and have no complaints.

But when grown men brainwash younger men and women into being suicide bombers I find that despicable. If they believe their cause why not do the deed themselves? What I do find is near total silence as regards Hamas' tactics. Much like the muslim reaction to al-quaeda - silence.

I also think that if you were to research zionism it originated as a desire to have a homeland, the Diaspora was not exactly a volunteer movement.

I think that anyone who is capable of persuading some mother's son or daughter of strapping on an explosive vest is equally capable of commiting other foul deeds and getting it blamed on the Israelis. Like the stories of Israeli soldiers shooting teengers in the back from helicopters, they could just as easily been shot by Hamas, no one got to do an autopsy. Yet everyone seems to be convinced that these youn men in the IDF are savage barbarians. I happen to know more that a few of them and they are no different than we are.

I would simply like to see equal coverage of both sides and not the bias that I see currently. Now if that view upsets you all, so be it.

Rob, it sounds as if you are excusing or even condoning Israel's inhuman, and I might add illegal, treatment of what amounts to a captive population on the basis of the outrages committed against the Jews since the death of Jesus. It also sounds as if you're prepared to dismiss out of hand reports of atrocities committed by Israel while blaming Palestinians as a people for the actions of a relative few. You seem to me to be completely incapable of objectivity in this matter.

John

finnbow
06-05-2010, 03:40 PM
Here's a particularly thoughtful piece (http://csis.org/publication/israel-strategic-liability) by Anthony Cordesman, one of the brightest minds in the business.

Zeke
06-05-2010, 03:42 PM
You seem to me to be completely incapable of objectivity in this matter.

And to be one of the minions who are 100% guilty of Israeli apologism.

Look: the Holocaust was evil. That doesn't mean I -- or the United States -- owes Israel a pass on anything.

For example, I tend to believe that Custer had it coming, far more than Hamas, but I do not pretend that the Little Bighorn was a point of Native restraint: we (I am unapologetically Native) killed, everyone. It wasn't absolutely necessary, per se, and many things can be debated...

But I'm not trying to sell it as a moral imperative. :rolleyes:

merrylander
06-05-2010, 03:47 PM
It would appear that we look at the mid-east and see two different things. I do not believe that I am trying to give the Israelis a pass on anything. By the same token I do believe that, like any people, they have a right to defend themselvess. They tried peaceful, it did not work, if someone has a solution that will work, let them speak now. My problem is that I know a lot of these people and when I talk to them I do not see what you see. It is that simple.

That said there is no way that we will convince each other so there is little point in continuing this thread, at least that is how it appears to me.

Zeke
06-05-2010, 03:49 PM
They tried peaceful, it did not work...

NO!

They tried entitlement, then wondered why nobody agreed with them... :mad:

Zeke
06-05-2010, 03:52 PM
...if someone has a solution that will work, let them speak now.

Let's go with this: Israel pulls its "Never Again" head out of its posterior... :rolleyes:

Boreas
06-05-2010, 03:54 PM
And to be one of the minions who are 100% guilty of Israeli apologism.

Our posts seem to be dovetailing, making many of the same points in response to Rob's posts, but I want to go on record here as saying that I don't think Rob is anybody's minion or 100% in lockstep with anyone or any ideology. It's just that he and I, and apparently he and you, have very different takes on a very divisive issue. It serves noone's interests to dismiss those with a different perspective with broad caricatures or stereotypes.

John

Zeke
06-05-2010, 03:56 PM
Our posts seem to be dovetailing, making many of the same points in response to Rob's posts, but I want to go on record here as saying that I don't think Rob is anybody's minion or 100% in lockstep with anyone or any ideology. It's just that he and I, and apparently he and you, have very different takes on a very divisive issue. It serves noone's interests to dismiss those with a different perspective with broad caricatures or stereotypes.

John

No issue, but apologism is apologism, whether as a stormtrooper or if personally held.

I find that to be a factual representation of action/intent, not stereotypical, as described.

finnbow
06-05-2010, 03:58 PM
And to be one of the minions who are 100% guilty of Israeli apologism.

Zeke - Got some time on your hands for some reading?:cool:

http://i43.tower.com/images/mm102137527/how-win-friends-influence-people-arthur-r-pell-paperback-cover-art.jpg

Boreas
06-05-2010, 03:58 PM
NO!

They tried entitlement, then wondered why nobody agreed with them... :mad:

Let's go with this: Israel pulls its "Never Again" head out of its posterior...

No issue, but apologism is apologism, whether as a stormtrooper or if personally held.

I find that to be a factual representation of action/intent, not stereotypical, as described.

Let me put it another way. Stay off my side.

John

Zeke
06-05-2010, 04:04 PM
Zeke - Got some time on your hands for some reading?:cool:

http://i43.tower.com/images/mm102137527/how-win-friends-influence-people-arthur-r-pell-paperback-cover-art.jpg

Are you trying to tell me that there is NO, ahem, "Israeli apologism?" :rolleyes:

Zeke
06-05-2010, 04:05 PM
Let me put it another way. Stay off my side.

John

Are you trying to insinuate that those aren't factual statements? :rolleyes:

Boreas
06-05-2010, 04:12 PM
Are you trying to insinuate that those aren't factual statements? :rolleyes:

I find them shallow, dismissive and unnecessarily provocative.

John

finnbow
06-05-2010, 04:15 PM
Are you trying to tell me that there is NO, ahem, "Israeli apologism?" :rolleyes:

Nope. However, I find the use of epithets such as "minion" directed at other forum members to be way out of line and very uncool.:(

Zeke
06-05-2010, 04:16 PM
I find them shallow, dismissive and unnecessarily provocative.

John

But not unfactual.

Zeke
06-05-2010, 04:17 PM
Nope. However, I find the use of epithets such as "minion" directed at other forum members to be way out of line and very uncool.:(

Which is why I indicated that you do NOT have to be a minion in order to hold such thoughts -- they can be held, individually -- but the action/intent is precisely the same.

Boreas
06-05-2010, 04:26 PM
But not unfactual.

Well, If I had a choice between being shallow, dismissive and unnecessarily provocative or being wrong, I know which one I'd want to choose.

John

Zeke
06-05-2010, 04:30 PM
Well, If I had a choice between being shallow, dismissive and unnecessarily provocative or being wrong, I know which one I'd want to choose.

John

I'll take the distilled, reduction, bottom-line truth.

Boreas
06-05-2010, 04:49 PM
Well, If I had a choice between being shallow, dismissive and unnecessarily provocative or being wrong, I know which one I'd want to choose.

I'll take the distilled, reduction, bottom-line truth.

And I can only imagine what it must be like to be both.

John

Zeke
06-05-2010, 05:31 PM
And I can only imagine what it must be like to be both.

John

Same.

As, here, there's only truth: ugly as some may find it. :cool:

JJIII
06-05-2010, 09:28 PM
It would appear that we look at the mid-east and see two different things. I do not believe that I am trying to give the Israelis a pass on anything. By the same token I do believe that, like any people, they have a right to defend themselvess. They tried peaceful, it did not work, if someone has a solution that will work, let them speak now. My problem is that I know a lot of these people and when I talk to them I do not see what you see. It is that simple.

That said there is no way that we will convince each other so there is little point in continuing this thread, at least that is how it appears to me.

Seems to happen a lot on this forum. I guess that's the human condition.;)

Charles
06-05-2010, 10:06 PM
Seems to happen a lot on this forum. I guess that's the human condition.;)

Is everybody happy?????

Chas

JJIII
06-06-2010, 07:05 AM
I'm as happy as a clam! Got dedicated lines for my music system in... got my stuff all back from Terry... got a forum like this to make me think... what more could a person ask for?

(Oh yeah, a cold one on occasion.) :D

Zeke
06-06-2010, 07:51 AM
Is everybody happy?????

Chas

I'm fine. :)

Charles
06-06-2010, 10:06 AM
I'm as happy as a clam! Got dedicated lines for my music system in... got my stuff all back from Terry... got a forum like this to make me think... what more could a person ask for?

(Oh yeah, a cold one on occasion.) :D

Dedicated lines? ISO circuit for your power?

The only problem I've ever had using dirty power was hum on my sub, which was in a different room from my equipment and on a different circuit as well. Not an easy fix in my case.

Finally cured it with a Hum Buster, and had to lift the ground on it as well.

Good luck with yer rekkerd player!!!

Chas

finnbow
06-06-2010, 12:12 PM
Here's another anti-semitic rant (http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/gaza-flotilla-drives-israel-into-a-sea-of-stupidity-1.292959)against the Israel attack on the aid ship. Oops. It comes from Haaretz, Israel's oldest daily newspaper.:rolleyes:

Admittedly, Haaretz is considered a Liberal paper in Israel, but this piece shows that it's not only anti-semitic, Hamas-hugging, Arab sympathizers who have this viewpoint.

Boreas
06-06-2010, 12:28 PM
Here's another anti-semitic rant (http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/gaza-flotilla-drives-israel-into-a-sea-of-stupidity-1.292959)against the Israel attack on the aid ship. Oops. It comes from Haaretz, Israel's oldest daily newspaper.:rolleyes:

Admittedly, Haaretz is considered a Liberal paper in Israel, but this piece shows that it's not only anti-semitic, Hamas-hugging, Arab sympathizers who have this viewpoint.

I see we're not alone in having a Liberal media bent on destroying our country.

John

Grumpy
06-06-2010, 06:57 PM
I see we're not alone in having a Liberal media bent on destroying our country.

John


This was also in the same paper http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/idf-five-gaza-flotilla-activists-linked-to-hamas-al-qaida-1.294546

Everyones innocent...

Zeke
06-06-2010, 08:04 PM
I see we're not alone in having a Liberal media bent on destroying our country.

John

That's one way to put it. Another is to say that they bothered to think. And, yet another, is to say they located a shred of objectivity... :rolleyes:

finnbow
06-06-2010, 08:29 PM
This was also in the same paper http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/idf-five-gaza-flotilla-activists-linked-to-hamas-al-qaida-1.294546

Everyones innocent...

These are allegations of the IDF, not exactly a disinterested party in the event. Once the international inquiry is complete, we'll know better.

Oops, I forgot that Israel refused to cooperate with such an inquiry. I guess we'll never know.

Boreas
06-06-2010, 09:14 PM
That's one way to put it. Another is to say that they bothered to think. And, yet another, is to say they located a shred of objectivity... :rolleyes:

Thinking makes people's heads explode. We can't have people's heads exploding!

John

Zeke
06-06-2010, 09:31 PM
These are allegations of the IDF, not exactly a disinterested party in the event. Once the international inquiry is complete, we'll know better.

Wholeheartedly agreed.

Oops, I forgot that Israel refused to cooperate with such an inquiry. I guess we'll never know.

Oh, I think the knowledge exists. What is more to wonder about is WHY Israel refused to cooperate. :rolleyes:

Oh, wait...

BlueStreak
06-06-2010, 10:10 PM
I'm as happy as a clam! Got dedicated lines for my music system in... got my stuff all back from Terry... got a forum like this to make me think... what more could a person ask for?

(Oh yeah, a cold one on occasion.) :D

I did the dedicated line with it's own 20 amp breaker for my music room. It seemed to help, but I really don't understand how, when the dedicated line still runs from the same bus as everthing else. But then the only way to run a truly dedicated line would be to run a single line all the way from the power plant, I guess. Or to run the entire system from a bank of batteries and an inverter?

Dave

JJIII
06-07-2010, 06:14 AM
Or to run the entire system from a bank of batteries and an inverter?

Dave

Hmmmm! That's an expense I don't think my wife is going to accept.:(

BlueStreak
06-07-2010, 09:11 AM
No, probably not.

piece-itpete
06-07-2010, 12:15 PM
Rob, it sounds as if you are excusing or even condoning Israel's inhuman, and I might add illegal, treatment of what amounts to a captive population on the basis of the outrages committed against the Jews since the death of Jesus. It also sounds as if you're prepared to dismiss out of hand reports of atrocities committed by Israel while blaming Palestinians as a people for the actions of a relative few. You seem to me to be completely incapable of objectivity in this matter.

John

Look: the Holocaust was evil. That doesn't mean I -- or the United States -- owes Israel a pass on anything.



Forget the Holocaust (for a moment :) )

Israel is a teenie country surrounded by folks that want to destroy it, wipe it and its' citizens off the face of the earth. Their propaganda is nazi-like, for good reason. They teach their children that the Israeli soldiers will kidnap them and drink their blood. And lack of peace is ISRAELS fault?

Given the same situation here there wouldn't be these arguments, because the issue would've been handled already.

But let's shack up with some of the worst scum on the planet because Israel is trying to stop those poor downtrodden peaceloving folks from lobbing missiles into it every time they get the chance, even after Israel pulled out.

Why isn't Egypt abandoning it's blockade? (shhhh, it's not Israel so it's OK)

Pete

westgate
06-07-2010, 12:51 PM
so said helen thomas... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_ts2427)

i partially misquoted her; my apologies.

Zeke
06-07-2010, 01:17 PM
Israel is a teenie country surrounded by folks that want to destroy it, wipe it and its' citizens off the face of the earth.

Since about 1948, when the State was forced upon them? I wonder why...

And lack of peace is ISRAELS fault?

When they act the fool? "Yes." Every time.

Given the same situation here there wouldn't be these arguments, because the issue would've been handled already.

I don't believe that to be true.

But let's shack up with some of the worst scum on the planet...

Calling out Israel does not imply support of any regime: just a LACK of support for theirs.

Why isn't Egypt abandoning it's blockade? (shhhh, it's not Israel so it's OK)

Why don't you, tell me? Enlighten? :)

piece-itpete
06-07-2010, 01:35 PM
Because Eygpt doesn't really give a rats rear about the Palestinians. None of those countries do. They just use them to flog Israel.

Pete

Zeke
06-07-2010, 01:56 PM
Because Eygpt doesn't really give a rats rear about the Palestinians. None of those countries do. They just use them to flog Israel.

Pete

Who, with regularity, deserves it.

Strategically, our "alignment" with Israel is beyond problematic.

piece-itpete
06-07-2010, 02:03 PM
Who, with regularity, deserves it.



Tell me again, why are the Palestinians in their current predicament?

Pete

Zeke
06-07-2010, 02:39 PM
Tell me again, why are the Palestinians in their current predicament?

Pete

A revisionist cause and effect argument could be made indicating that they refused Israeli citizenship after WWII: but that's simplistic apologism, endeavoring to negate decades of Israeli action and, in no way, describes the daily suffering, abuse, humiliation, terror and deprivation of basic human rights the Israelis inflict on the Palestinians.

To wit:

The seed of this conflict was planted in 1882 when the Zionist movement started with a group of secular (non-religious) European Jews to establish a homeland for the Jews in Palestine. Up to the 1920's, Jews lived in peace with Muslims and Christians in Palestine for about 1300 years (except when the European Crusaders killed all the Jews and Muslims in Jerusalem 900 years ago). Most of the Jews who lived in Palestine until then were Arabs.

When Britain occupied Palestine during World War 1, it gave a declaration (Balfour Declaration 1917) to the Zionist Federation that Britain will facilitate establishing a national home for the Jews in Palestine. There was one big problem however: the land already was populated by native Arabs (Mostly Muslim, but with significant Christian 7% and Jewish minorities 9%).

Britain opened the door to Jewish immigration from Europe, which increased in the 1930's and 1940's because of Nazism and the Holocaust. In 1948 the Jews made up 33% of the population of Palestine, but owned only 7% of the land. The UN voted (Res. 181) to split Palestine 55% for the Jews and 45% for the Palestinians to establish a Jewish and Arab States in Palestine, and to make Jerusalem an international area. War broke out between the Arabs and Jews in 1948 and the Jews occupied 80% of Palestine and established Israel on it. In the process Israel ethnically cleansed (forcibly removed) 80% of the Palestinians from the land they occupied and destroyed and depopulated more than 400 Palestinian villages, massacred thousands of Palestinians and made 0.75 million Palestinians refugees.

The UN voted in 1948 (Security Council Resolutions 93 and General Assembly Res. 194) to tell Israel to allow the Palestinian refugees to return to their homes, but until today Israel never complied. In 1967 Israel militarily occupied the remainder of Palestine (The West Bank and the Gaza Strip). The Security Council again voted in 1967 and 1973 that Israel return to the 1967 borders and allow the refugees to return, but Israel never complied (Security Council Res. 237, 242, 338).

This gives you a brief history of the roots of the problem. The Palestinians now negotiate to get only the lands occupied in 1967 back to establish their own state on it, and for Israel to allow the deposed people in 1948 and 1967 to return to their original homes.

Israel is only accepting to return only parts of the lands occupied in 1967. The land they accept to return has no borders with the outside world (making it an effective jail guarded by the Israelis). They also refuse to allow the refugees to return. They also have built many illegal settlements in the West Bank and planted nearly 500,000 Israeli extremists in them. Israel has taken control of nearly 5/6 of the water resources in the West Bank, and has built an apartheid wall that dwarfs the Berlin wall around and through Palestinian cities and villages in the West Bank. They also refuse to return East Jerusalem, which is part of the West Bank, to the Palestinians.

But, to a degree, that's an internal problem. Along with all of that, however, they have -- consistently -- made strategic action that undermines or threatens status of the United States of America. We do not need to be involved in any land wars in Asia, especially those being harbored and fostered by a supposed ally. This, latest, fiasco being a, personal, point of contention.

So, have I answered your query? :confused:

I admit to an honest effort to do so.

piece-itpete
06-07-2010, 03:16 PM
Sources please? It was my understanding that the Arabs whipped their Palestinian "brothers" into a frenzy of fear causing them to run (as long as they didn't run to them!).

And there's other, um, hints of bias. Consider: "In 1967 Israel militarily occupied the remainder of Palestine (The West Bank and the Gaza Strip)." Rotflmao!!!! I mean you can say it's true, but it hardly tells the story, or rather, tells it the way the author would like it perceived.

Pete

Charles
06-07-2010, 05:43 PM
I did the dedicated line with it's own 20 amp breaker for my music room. It seemed to help, but I really don't understand how, when the dedicated line still runs from the same bus as everthing else. But then the only way to run a truly dedicated line would be to run a single line all the way from the power plant, I guess. Or to run the entire system from a bank of batteries and an inverter?

Dave

Perhaps this will help.

http://www.epanorama.net/documents/groundloop/

A little something else.

http://ecmweb.com/grounding/electric_shocking_truth_grounding/

Let me know when you have mastered the subject.

Chas

Zeke
06-07-2010, 06:29 PM
Sources please? It was my understanding that the Arabs whipped their Palestinian "brothers" into a frenzy of fear causing them to run (as long as they didn't run to them!).

And it's my understanding that's not, precisely, what occurred. I mean you can say it's true, but it hardly tells the story, or rather, tells it the way the author would like it perceived... ;)

And there's other, um, hints of bias. Consider: "In 1967 Israel militarily occupied the remainder of Palestine (The West Bank and the Gaza Strip)." Rotflmao!!!! I mean you can say it's true, but it hardly tells the story, or rather, tells it the way the author would like it perceived.

You mean, as the truth that it is? :rolleyes:

Boreas
06-07-2010, 06:41 PM
Because Eygpt doesn't really give a rats rear about the Palestinians. None of those countries do.

Right, so we shouldn't either.

John

BlueStreak
06-08-2010, 12:10 AM
Perhaps this will help.

http://www.epanorama.net/documents/groundloop/

A little something else.

http://ecmweb.com/grounding/electric_shocking_truth_grounding/

Let me know when you have mastered the subject.

Chas


Thanks, Chas.

I'll throw an eye at it when I'm not so dang tired.

And even then, I prolly still won't git it. Dumb as I am......

Dave

BlueStreak
06-08-2010, 12:34 AM
Right, so we shouldn't either.

John


We dogmatically support Israel because there are powerfull people in both government and the private sector who think that we MUST support Israel in order to facilitate the Second Coming of Christ. We protect Israel until Jesus comes back, then we get to murder all of the Jews who refuse to convert to Christianity. It's a rediculous, twisted fairytale foisted upon us by organized religion, (IMHO), and I resent my money being spent to perpetuate it. Helen Thomas was right. The Jews can just pack up and go back to Poland, Germany, Florida, or wherever and put an end to this assinine travesty. I'm totally willing to bet that a world without Israel really won't be any worse off for it.

That, and there HAS to be money in it. Is that it? Are they laundering "blood diamonds" or something? That would explain it's grave importance to certain business and political types anyhow.

Sorry, but this is how I see it.

Regards,
Dave

piece-itpete
06-08-2010, 09:05 AM
And it's my understanding that's not, precisely, what occurred. I mean you can say it's true, but it hardly tells the story, or rather, tells it the way the author would like it perceived... ;)



You mean, as the truth that it is? :rolleyes:

Right. Like the Egyptians and Jordanians didn't already occupy those territories - a military occupation. Before they attacked Israel. AGAIN.

You're not minioning up on us, are you Zeke? :)

If the Palestinians would try NOT suicide bombing, or rocketing, or whatever, world opinion would force Israel to do something more, even if they didn't do it themselves. Unfortunately that's not what the arab world wants, they don't care about the Palestinians, just Israel.

Right, so we shouldn't either.

John

Agreed. They don't care what people think about their blockade, why should Israel?


We dogmatically support Israel because there are powerfull people in both government and the private sector who think that we MUST support Israel in order to facilitate the Second Coming of Christ. We protect Israel until Jesus comes back, then we get to murder all of the Jews who refuse to convert to Christianity. It's a rediculous, twisted fairytale foisted upon us by organized religion, (IMHO), and I resent my money being spent to perpetuate it. Helen Thomas was right. The Jews can just pack up and go back to Poland, Germany, Florida, or wherever and put an end to this assinine travesty. I'm totally willing to bet that a world without Israel really won't be any worse off for it.

That, and there HAS to be money in it. Is that it? Are they laundering "blood diamonds" or something? That would explain it's grave importance to certain business and political types anyhow.

Sorry, but this is how I see it.

Regards,
Dave

I don't support Israel because of the second coming of Christ, which will happen as God sees fit regardless of our aims or desires.

Once Israel is out of the way they'll move on to their next target.

Pete

BlueStreak
06-08-2010, 10:03 AM
I don't support Israel because of the second coming of Christ, which will happen as God sees fit regardless of our aims or desires.

Once Israel is out of the way they'll move on to their next target.

Pete

Maybe you don't. But here are many who are, I've heard them. Robertson goes on about it all of the time. I watched Falwell spell the whole thing out, on Meet the Press one night in 2002; "Oh, you can bet there's going to be a war. Israel must be protected at all costs. The United States has a big role to play in this...............(second coming)". Nutcases. Connected nutcases.

Israel is not "in the way", Pete. It isn't obvious to you that they can go around Israel and on to their "next target" anytime they like and have been all along? When was the last time we heard of Israel thwarting a terrorism plot? Oh, Please. They can't even do that inside their own borders, but their protecting us? Absurd.

Regards,
Dave

piece-itpete
06-08-2010, 10:31 AM
Do you think Obama, Hillary, and Bill all sided with Israel because of the second coming? Fringe groups on both sides are fringe groups.....

And if Israel hasn't thwarted any plots, why is Tel Aviv still standing?

Pete

BlueStreak
06-08-2010, 12:03 PM
Do you think Obama, Hillary, and Bill all sided with Israel because of the second coming? Fringe groups on both sides are fringe groups.....

And if Israel hasn't thwarted any plots, why is Tel Aviv still standing?

Pete

Because not supporting Israel is political suicide.

And the World Trade Center is not "still standing". This is my point. Israel protects us from absolutely NOTHING. We pay them billions every year simply to maintain their existence. Why? Because the Jewish want their own homeland, and Robertsons cult zombies wants a Holy Helipad for Jesus to land on, so they can exterminate any unrepentent Jews in the final act.:eek: Kookoo...Kookoo.....

I want my own homeland! Maybe I should write the UN and ask them if I can have Trinidad? I'm a Rastafarian, it's for religious purposes and if I happen to see any terrorists plotting to attack the US, I'll give'em a shout.:rolleyes:

That'll be $30,000,000,000, please?:)

Regards,
Dave

piece-itpete
06-08-2010, 12:17 PM
We'll give you the homeland, and let your neighbors kill your kids becase we're guilty....

I suggest reading on the Caliphate.

Pete

BlueStreak
06-08-2010, 12:46 PM
Know all about it. And the Israelis are preventing it.......how? By keeping the hatred and unrest alive? Would the Arabs controlling that tiny patch of land really end in world-wide Caliphate? I think not.

At any rate, I guess we just disagree......again.

Love Ya, Man!

Dave

piece-itpete
06-08-2010, 12:53 PM
Love ya too dude!

In a manly way :D

Pete

Boreas
06-08-2010, 01:08 PM
Look, there's truth in what all of you are saying, both pro-Israel and anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian and anti-Palestinian. The point is that, no matter what the offense, the Israeli treatment of the Palestinian population as a whole is entirely unjustified. They are engaged in the collective punishment (illegal under international law) of an entire people based on the real and imaginary offenses of a minority of those people.

If only Israel would apply the words "Never again" to the world at large they could stand out as an example of morality and humanity for the world instead of the pariah state they are rapidly becoming.

John

piece-itpete
06-08-2010, 01:25 PM
If the bad guys would refrain from bombing the civilian population they could have all the nutmeg they could possibly want :D

Hold the bad guys to the same standard, we'll talk about Israel, my take.

And if someone calls for a group hug I'm outta here! :eek:

Pete

Zeke
06-08-2010, 01:41 PM
Hold the bad guys to the same standard, we'll talk about Israel, my take.

You're missing the point.

In this case, Israel is the "Bad Guy." :(

piece-itpete
06-08-2010, 01:46 PM
Enforcing a blockade? Or blowing up busloads of civilians?

Pete

Boreas
06-08-2010, 05:43 PM
If the bad guys would refrain from bombing the civilian population they could have all the nutmeg they could possibly want :D

It's not the Israelis that want the nutmeg.

Gaza City, January 2009
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_rl0N1IJv-p8/SW_e90F3qZI/AAAAAAAAEOo/Ve7wfSw90Tc/s400/06+phosphorous+bomb+over+gaza+city+january+14-15+2009.jpg

John

BlueStreak
06-09-2010, 12:11 AM
Yeah, that's what it's all about, Nutmeg.

Dave

piece-itpete
06-09-2010, 08:56 AM
.......

d-ray657
06-10-2010, 01:02 PM
Pete,

Don't you remember what they taught you in Sunday School. "Two wrongs don's make a right." The positions taken by the Arab states and Israel would both be considered extremist - and unconstitutional - here. Just because some of the Arab theocrats engage in condemnable behavior doesn't mean that we can't evaluate the outrages in which the Israeli theocrats engage.

Regards,

D-Ray

piece-itpete
06-10-2010, 01:21 PM
How is enforcing the blockade condemnable? We wouldn't have let them land.

Pete

d-ray657
06-10-2010, 01:35 PM
How is enforcing the blockade condemnable? We wouldn't have let them land.

Pete

As I understand it, Israel boarded the ship in international waters. One might argue that such action is not outrageous, but others might argue that such action equates to piracy. The outrageous action involves subjugating a race, and all of the actions that they take to accomplish that end.

Regards,

D-Ray

Boreas
06-10-2010, 02:14 PM
How is enforcing the blockade condemnable?

The blockade itself is condemnable. Enforcing it - by any means - is likewise condemnable. Enforcing it by means of a commando raid on an unarmed ship in international waters doubly so. Killing ten innocent people in the process makes it an international crime but for Israel that's just another brick in the hod.

We wouldn't have let them land.

Are you sure? Even if you're right would we choose to use similar tactics? Would we do it in international waters?

Of course, your assertion also presumes we would institute such a blockade in the first place. I sure hope you're wrong.

John

piece-itpete
06-10-2010, 02:26 PM
Sorry, perfectly legal. So not piracy.

Subjugating a race that's trying to wipe you off the planet, sure.

Pete

piece-itpete
06-10-2010, 02:31 PM
The blockade itself is condemnable. Enforcing it - by any means - is likewise condemnable. Enforcing it by means of a commando raid on an unarmed ship in international waters doubly so. Killing ten innocent people in the process makes it an international crime but for Israel that's just another brick in the hod.



Are you sure? Even if you're right would we choose to use similar tactics? Would we do it in international waters?

Of course, your assertion also presumes we would institute such a blockade in the first place. I sure hope you're wrong.

John

We wouldn't need the blockade, it would be dealt with already. I should say, 'I pity the foo', that bombs us. Fact, not bravado.

A blockade is a legitimate wartime tool. Those commandos didn't kill anyone on any other ship - why?

You attack solders, just what do you expect, rose pedals?

The sad fact is, Israels enemies have no use for peace. They need an outside enemy to keep inside order. So they demonise the Jews.

Pete

Boreas
06-10-2010, 02:33 PM
Sorry, perfectly legal. So not piracy.

Who mentioned piracy?

Israel claims it's at war with the Palestinian people so the raid was "legal" as a military action in time of war. Only trouble is the ship wasn't Palestinian and most of the people aboard her weren't either. There are many people who know a lot more about international law than we do who view this as a crime under international law.

Subjugating a race that's trying to wipe you off the planet, sure.

So, the entire Palestinian race, every man, woman and child, wants to destroy Israel?

John

Boreas
06-10-2010, 02:41 PM
We wouldn't need the blockade, it would be dealt with already. I should say, 'I pity the foo', that bombs us. Fact, not bravado.


Yeah, look what happened to bin Laden!

A blockade is a legitimate wartime tool. Those commandos didn't kill anyone on any other ship - why?

'Cuz they only boarded one?

You attack solders, just what do you expect, rose pedals?

"Attack"? Looked more like self-defense to me. Stupid, yes, but I think you're confused about who attacked whom.

The sad fact is, Israels enemies have no use for peace.

Neither does Israel.

They need an outside enemy to keep inside order. So they demonise the Jews.

Horse shit! Israel isn't an outside enemy. It's an occupier. It's right there in their faces every day creating disorder, deprivation and death.

John

piece-itpete
06-10-2010, 02:41 PM
This is kinda fun.

Blockades have been around a long time. Intercepting ships in international waters does not violate international law during a blockade.

If for some reason we decided a blockade was neccessary somewhere, it wouldn't matter who you were - you'd get boarded. That's a blockade.

Because Turkey put their official stamp on this, on a group who obviously PLANNED on attacking soldiers, think about that and what it means....

So, the entire German race, every man, woman, and child, wanted to starve the Ukraine?

Pete

piece-itpete
06-10-2010, 02:43 PM
Two concurrent arguments between two people on the same subject. :)

Do we get an award?

Pete