If I believed in Karma: BP, Iran, the CIA.

[diamondsoul]

If I believed in Karma I might think that this mess that BP is involved in was karmically related to the US's involved in the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Iran in 1953. Which was ironically primarily motivated to economically benefit BP which was then called the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Persian_Oil_Company

Cheers

Lar

[Boreas]

If I believed in Karma I might think that this mess that BP is involved in was karmically related to the US's involved in the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Iran in 1953. Which was ironically primarily motivated to economically benefit BP which was then called the Anglo-Iranian oil Company.

Yes, but when you have this nexus of corrupt government officials, lax regulation, incompetent corporate management and inadequate technology Kermit Roosevelt gets a pass on this one.

John

[diamondsoul]

Yes, but when you have this nexus of corrupt government officials, lax regulation, incompetent corporate management and inadequate technology Kermit Roosevelt gets a pass on this one.

John

Had never heard of Kermit grandson of Teddy. Interesting character.

Actually the nationalization of Iran's oil production only made profound sense for Iran, for Iranians. The wealth that the Brits literally drained from Iran was vast and Iranians benefited very little from that wealth.

Much of the present dysfunction in the Middle East can be directly traced to what Britain and other Western powers did there after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire.

If it wasn't for the oil we'd be no more interested in Iraq, Iran, Saudi, etc. than we are in the Congo, Sudan and Somalia.

It is what truly motivates us which is the true measure of our character as nations.

Cheers

Lar

[piece-itpete]

You know, in that part of the world they had a cheerful habit of cutting off heads long before we had anything to do with them.

While I agree that we have done a lot of damage, their hateful ways belong to them, not us.

Pete

PS: BP in America was formerly Standard Oil.

[finnbow]

You know, in that part of the world they had a cheerful habit of cutting off heads long before we had anything to do with them.

True enough. But if it weren't for the oil nexus, we wouldn't care. See Ruwanda, Sierra Leone, Somalia, etc.

[diamondsoul]

You know, in that part of the world they had a cheerful habit of cutting off heads long before we had anything to do with them.

While I agree that we have done a lot of damage, their hateful ways belong to them, not us.

Pete

PS: BP in America was formerly Standard Oil.

Not sure but I think I might prefer the sword to gas, hanging, or electrocution. :D

When Canada was doing it last hangings, many moons ago I might add, there was a few fellows that had to be rehung because of the hangman's miscalculation to do with weight and drop.

Tribalism and the brutality it spawns is one of the banes of the Middle East for sure. 'Honor' killings and a corrupt judiciary make sure only the wealthy get any sort of justice. Changing this established way of living is near impossible through force though, it only hardens attitudes and widens divides.

For instance: thing is that it is far past time when how funds are used to 'educate' and 'democratize' 'backward nations is examined rationally. I have a feeling that if the 100's of billions of dollars which have been used to destroy the infrastructure and culture of Iraq had been instead used to actually create better infrastructure, health care, and education etc. that our results would be a bit more positive.

Cheers

Lar

[d-ray657]

Not sure but I think I might prefer the sword to gas, hanging, or electrocution. :D

When Canada was doing it last hangings, many moons ago I might add, there was a few fellows that had to be rehung because of the hangman's miscalculation to do with weight and drop.

Tribalism and the brutality it spawns is one of the banes of the Middle East for sure. 'Honor' killings and a corrupt judiciary make sure only the wealthy get any sort of justice. Changing this established way of living is near impossible through force though, it only hardens attitudes and widens divides.

For instance: thing is that it is far past time when how funds are used to 'educate' and 'democratize' 'backward nations is examined rationally. I have a feeling that if the 100's of billions of dollars which have been used to destroy the infrastructure and culture of Iraq had been instead used to actually create better infrastructure, health care, and education etc. that our results would be a bit more positive.

Cheers

Lar

But it's not macho to build infrastructure and provide health care - even here. Those things are allegedly going to cause us to face a tax increase, while spending on bombs and munitions and Haliburton had nothing to do with the creation of the deficit. Fact is, our politicians would rather spend money on bombs than roads, clinics and schools.

Regards,

D-Ray

[diamondsoul]

But it's not macho to build infrastructure and provide health care - even here. Those things are allegedly going to cause us to face a tax increase, while spending on bombs and munitions and Haliburton had nothing to do with the creation of the deficit. Fact is, our politicians would rather spend money on bombs than roads, clinics and schools.

Regards,

D-Ray

Exactly!

Not only not macho but not politically expedient. Unfortunately we the people don't find out what the true motivations were until a generation or more later.

Cheers

Lar

[piece-itpete]

Finn, understood, 'cept we did try in Somalia (that meddling Bush Sr. Seriously I don't understand why we went in).

Lar, did you ever read about the first electrocution? Ugly. They didn't have enough juice to kill the guy. I'd prefer the gas, hanging by an expert (for your reason or, too long a fall and it rips the head off), or a well maintained guillotine. Headcutting is WAY too messy. Unless you bribe the executioner :)

Charming topic. There's a report on the guillotine written during the French Revolution, a doctor did an experiment to see if the decapitated head still responded by blinking (arrainged beforehand with the unfortunate). 'It' did :eek:

I'm not excusing our brutalities earlier in the ME, just saying I'm not going to excuse their current ones either. Their institutionalized hate is beyond the pale and on them.

Hard to rebuild their infrastructure with the Butcher in power. We're doing it now :)

Nice to meet you btw.

Pete

[finnbow]

Finn, understood, 'cept we did try in Somalia (that meddling Bush Sr. Seriously I don't understand why we went in).

Lar, did you ever read about the first electrocution? Ugly. They didn't have enough juice to kill the guy. I'd prefer the gas, hanging by an expert (for your reason or, too long a fall and it rips the head off), or a well maintained guillotine. Headcutting is WAY too messy. Unless you bribe the executioner :)

Charming topic. There's a report on the guillotine written during the French Revolution, a doctor did an experiment to see if the decapitated head still responded by blinking (arrainged beforehand with the unfortunate). 'It' did :eek:.



Cheery topic, Pete.:D

On the bright side on things, our incursion into Somalia, Operation Restore Hope, was done for humanitarian reasons (i.e., guarantee the delivery of humanitarian aid to Somalia) as opposed kicking the ass of someone we saw as a threat (Iraq, Afghanistan). I guess the lesson from all of these incursions, regardless of their reasons, is that you can't civilize such places at the barrel of a gun. The seem content (if that's the right word) to live in the middle ages.

[piece-itpete]

My take is that humanitarian military missions usually don't work. We've generally had success in asskicking.

Btw, I had it wrong, no blinking:

http://blog.soulwire.co.uk/notes/miscellany/the-guillotined-head-of-languille

The first chair: http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/Kemmler-Torture-Death7aug1890.htm

Pete

[diamondsoul]

Yup ol' Saddam was a piece of work. Good riddance to him, his sons and cronies. That picture of him and Rumsfield shaking hands is a classic. Shaking hands with the devil, or satan meets lucifer?

Problem with countries like Iraq that are made up of several peoples: Kurds, Shiah marsh Arabs, a Sunni ruling class, etc. is that it takes a brute like Saddam to keep the peace. Just like when Tito was gone Yugoslavia fell apart.

Sometimes The Project for a New American Century still appears to be running things from behind the scenes.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

Cheers

Lar

[Boreas]

PS: BP in America was formerly Standard Oil.

Not exactly. BP bought Amoco (Standard Oil of Indiana) and became BP-Amoco. A few years later they dropped the "Amoco" but they still have some Amoco retail outlets in the east and midwest. Out west they market as ARCO because they also bought Atlantic Richfield along the way.

John

[Charles]

Not exactly. BP bought Amoco (Standard Oil of Indiana) and became BP-Amoco. A few years later they dropped the "Amoco" but they still have some Amoco retail outlets in the east and midwest. Out west they market as ARCO because they also bought Atlantic Richfield along the way.

John

Wow!!!

And all of this time I thought that they were just a giant multinational.

Chas

[Boreas]

Wow!!!

And all of this time I thought that they were just a giant multinational.

Chas

Oh, and before all that they bought Sinclair.

John

[Charles]

Yup ol' Saddam was a piece of work. Good riddance to him, his sons and cronies. That picture of him and Rumsfield shaking hands is a classic. Shaking hands with the devil, or satan meets lucifer?

Problem with countries like Iraq that are made up of several peoples: Kurds, Shiah marsh Arabs, a Sunni ruling class, etc. is that it takes a brute like Saddam to keep the peace. Just like when Tito was gone Yugoslavia fell apart.

Sometimes The Project for a New American Century still appears to be running things from behind the scenes.

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

Cheers

Lar

They REALLY said that?

Engaging in diplomacy and advancing the nation's interests are positive attributes, IMHO.

Chas

[Charles]

Oh, and before all that they bought Sinclair.

John

So they're the dirty bastards that killed that cute little dinosaur!!!

Now I'm pissed!!!

Chas

[BlueStreak]

So they're the dirty bastards that killed that cute little dinosaur!!!

Now I'm pissed!!!

Chas

Yeah, me too. I really liked that logo.

Dammit!

Dave

[Boreas]

Yeah, me too. I really liked that logo.

Dammit!

Dave

I liked it too.

The really weird thing about BP buying Sinclair is this. ARCO bought Sinclair in 1969 but the Feds made ARCO divest itself of some of Sinclair's assets for anti-trust reasons. To satisfy the government, ARCO sold its eastern operations to BP. Then in 2000 BP bought ARCO so now BP owns all of Sinclair, all of ARCO and all of Amoco. Things sure did change between 1969 and 2000.

John

[Combwork]

For instance: thing is that it is far past time when how funds are used to 'educate' and 'democratize' 'backward nations is examined rationally. I have a feeling that if the 100's of billions of dollars which have been used to destroy the infrastructure and culture of Iraq had been instead used to actually create better infrastructure, health care, and education etc. that our results would be a bit more positive.

Cheers

Lar

The problem is that unless we took the 18th century British way of doing things and colonised the place, any funding for schools and a better political system would have to have been done through the Iraqi government. I wonder how much of the money would have reached the civilian population.

One thing in Sadam's favor was under his rule Iraq was at least in part a secular society. Unless you were caught trying to rock the boat you could live pretty much how you liked.

Now look how it's improved, with women treated as equal's and tolerance of all faiths.

[Charles]

The problem is that unless we took the 18th century British way of doing things and colonised the place, any funding for schools and a better political system would have to have been done through the Iraqi government. I wonder how much of the money would have reached the civilian population.

One thing in Sadam's favor was under his rule Iraq was at least in part a secular society. Unless you were caught trying to rock the boat you could live pretty much how you liked.

Now look how it's improved, with women treated as equal's and tolerance of all faiths.

I suppose that the Koran, at least in some circles, is not a living document.

Chas

[merrylander]

Unfortunately, in discovering oil over there we gave a bunch of beknighted savages wealth. Between Sunni, Shia, Wahabism, Kurds, Turks, Kyrgs, Uzbecs, etc. it seems about time for a new version of the Merry Minuet. We should just come home and let them kill each other off.

[Boreas]

Now look how it's improved, with women treated as equal's and tolerance of all faiths.

Huh?

John

[diamondsoul]

The problem is that unless we took the 18th century British way of doing things and colonised the place, any funding for schools and a better political system would have to have been done through the Iraqi government. I wonder how much of the money would have reached the civilian population.

One thing in Sadam's favor was under his rule Iraq was at least in part a secular society. Unless you were caught trying to rock the boat you could live pretty much how you liked.

Now look how it's improved, with women treated as equal's and tolerance of all faiths.

The secular aspect was a positive one.

The Shiah have always been in the majority if I'm not mistaken but the Sunni held most of the power. Now the situation has been reversed, Shiah hold the most power.

Now that the Baath Party has been banned in Iraq it has left a power vacuum that hasn't really been effectively filled; though there is a truce of sorts that has been brought about through power brokerage. Ironically the Baathists were secularists as well so ironically Iraq has more of a potential of becoming an Islamist state once the US is gone than before the invasion. Not a good situation in that part of the world.

Cheers

Lar

[diamondsoul]

Unfortunately, in discovering oil over there we gave a bunch of beknighted savages wealth. Between Sunni, Shia, Wahabism, Kurds, Turks, Kyrgs, Uzbecs, etc. it seems about time for a new version of the Merry Minuet. We should just come home and let them kill each other off.

Hey, we were the savages in the relationship at one point, ;). At least our European ancestors were.

Apparently when the Ruskies were in Afghanistan they discovered huge mineral deposits. Now the US has 'rediscovery' this great wealth. Will be very interesting to see how this wealth benefits the people of Afghanistan.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/7835657/Afghanistan-claims-mineral-wealth-is-worth-3trillion.html

Cheers

Lar

[diamondsoul]

Back on topic :)

The reason I started this thread was to help get at the bigger picture. How in the hell did we allow BP, Transoceanic and Halliburton get into the position that something like this blow out could occur?

Although I don't believe in Karma I do believe that what goes around comes around and that we reap what we sow. The question of how BP's predecessor had so much power that it could influence the British government to ask the US government to help overthrow a legitimately elected democratic government is directly related to the question of how BP today was allowed to drill a well at that depth with no way of controlling it should the circumstances that occurred did occur.

Right now off the East Coast of Canada Chevron is drilling an exploratory well that is even deeper than BPs was in the Gulf. They want to do it in exactly the same way as BP did it as well. No relief wells, unless they are needed in an emergency. And guess where the rigs to drill the relief wells will have to come from? The Gulf, and that is if they are not in use, lol. How long will it take for them to move the rigs to the East Coast? Who knows it depends on the weather, how long to drill the relief wells? Same as in the Gulf maybe longer because of the added depth. What the _ uck are these people thinking? They are thinking dollars and cents and the bottom line for investor dividends, that's where their thinking stops.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2010/06/15/chevron-deepwater-oil-drill-615.html

Sure great safety records are fine, until something like the Deepwater occurs, then it too late.

Time to rein these _uckers in me thinks.

By the way I'm apolitical, I'm a member of South Park's Blame Canada Party :D

Cheers

Lar

[Combwork]

Huh?

John

It was a failed attempt at irony, not one of my strong points.

[diamondsoul]

It was a failed attempt at irony, not one of my strong points.

Not to worry. Irony is hard to pull off without face to face.;)

Cheers

Lar

[merrylander]

It was a failed attempt at irony, not one of my strong points.

Based on your posts I knew it was irony.:)

[Boreas]

Based on your posts I knew it was irony.:)

And I should have.

John

[piece-itpete]

Not to worry. Irony is hard to pull off without face to face.;)

Cheers

Lar

Straight lines too :)

Pete