The Stimulus Plan Worked

[d-ray657]

Some economists, who know a helluva lot more about it than I do, have concluded that the TARP program and Stimulus program prevented the recession from becoming a depression and pushed it toward recovery.

http://www.kansascity.com/2010/07/28/2114624/federal-efforts-avoided-a-depression.html

One point made in the article, that seems to be ignored, is that the stimulus package included $400 billion in tax cuts. My bet is that 95% of the tea bag protesters received the benefit of those tax breaks, and will this year as well. That assumption is based on the fact that only 5% of the U.S. population makes more than $200,000 per year, and the tax cuts applied to anyone who made less than $200k. Moreover, the tax breaks went to people who needed the money; thus is was sure to be spent. Why has this been ignored?

There are some interesting factoids at the end of the article. Without the stimulus, the economy would have lost 16.5 million jobs instead of 8 million, the GDP would have been another 5% lower, and the unemployment rate would still be at least 11%.

Regards,

D-Ray

[finnbow]

Quit trying to make rational arguments to Wingnuts. I think it'll short-circuit their wiring.
http://www.jeffbots.com/fembot3.jpg

[piece-itpete]

Worked for Clinton? Why on earth would anyone question his motives.

They also like TARP.

Pete

[Boreas]

Worked for Clinton? Why on earth would anyone question his motives.

They also like TARP.

Pete

Um, Pete? What are you talking about?

John

[d-ray657]

They also like TARP.

Pete

And they gave Bush credit for it.

Zandi was an economic adviser to McCain's campaign. I guess that shoots his credibility as well.:p

Regards,

D-ray

[piece-itpete]

Sooner or later we'll get a non partisan report.

Which means they've never said who they're with! lol.

Pete

[d-ray657]

Sooner or later we'll get a non partisan report.

Which means they've never said who they're with! lol.

Pete

Pete, somehow I get the impression that the only report you would believe would say that the entire stimulus plan was a total failure.

Regards,

D-Ray

[Charles]

Just another economic opinion, might as well be talking about whether the glass is half full or half empty, or which came first, the chicken or the egg.

One thing about it, it is election year, and we're down to the nut cutting.

Chas

[piece-itpete]

Well, apparently it's a total success!

Pete

[noonereal]

The Stimulus Plan Worked


:eek: I don't think you are allowed to say that!

[Grumpy]

I believe it helped some, at least until its time to pay the piper.

[d-ray657]

I believe it helped some, at least until its time to pay the piper.

According to the report, the budget deficit would have been bigger without the stimulus plan, because fewer people would be making money to pay taxes on. There would be 8.5 million jobs and a greater downward pressure on wages.

Regards,

D-Ray

[BlueStreak]

I see that it's helped. I have friends/family that have found work lately, and some of them live in Ohio, which is supposed to be one of the worst places to be unemployed right now. I see my own employer investing money in our plant. Sure the economy isn't booming just yet, but it will in time.

I'm sorry, but I think what is hurting us the most right now is all of the crazyness. The fearmongering, this "The End is Nigh!" negativity being spouted off 24/7 is killing us. Really all we need is for people to calm the heck down and start spending money again.

Dave

[d-ray657]

I see that it's helped. I have friends/family that have found work lately, and some of them live in Ohio, which is supposed to be one of the worst places to be unemployed right now. I see my own employer investing money in our plant. Sure the economy isn't booming just yet, but it will in time.

I'm sorry, but I think what is hurting us the most right now is all of the crazyness. The fearmongering, this "The End is Nigh!" negativity being spouted off 24/7 is killing us. Really all we need is for people to calm the heck down and start spending money again.

Dave

As yogi would say, economics is 90 percent money, and the other half is mental.

Strange to see you working the day shift. You usually don't post this time of day. Do you still get stuck watching Fox at lunch?

Regards,

D-Ray

[Grumpy]

According to the report, the budget deficit would have been bigger without the stimulus plan, because fewer people would be making money to pay taxes on. There would be 8.5 million jobs and a greater downward pressure on wages.

Regards,

D-Ray


Unemployment is proping up this country, cut employment and see what that report says.

[BlueStreak]

As yogi would say, economics is 90 percent money, and the other half is mental.

Strange to see you working the day shift. You usually don't post this time of day. Do you still get stuck watching Fox at lunch?

Regards,

D-Ray

We all work dayshift for maintenance shutdown. 6am-4:30pm.

Something is awry with the Orwellian Telescreen. Pictures, but no sound.
One of the wingnuts asked about it today. I replied, "I find Republicans much easier to take when they are seen, but not heard.":p

Dave

[d-ray657]

Unemployment is proping up this country, cut employment and see what that report says.

Didn't you know that if all of those unemployed people would just get off their butts and go get a job, everything would be OK. Sure, there are still 8 million jobs missing from the economy, but they could find something if they didn't have the enticement of unemployment benefits to keep them at home. After all the employers are sitting on a trillion dollars just waiting for someone to come ask them for a job.:(

Regards,

D-Ray

[Charles]

How much bang for the buck has the nation garnished form this. Short term, you dump a couple of trillion out, somebody's gonna get fat.

Long term, we'll see.

It's easy to live large on borrowed money, until you can't pay the interest.

Chas

[noonereal]

How much bang for the buck has the nation garnished form this. Short term, you dump a couple of trillion out, somebody's gonna get fat.

Long term, we'll see.

It's easy to live large on borrowed money, until you can't pay the interest.

Chas

You sound very unhappy.

[Charles]

You sound very unhappy.

Skeptical.

Aint' the same thing.

Chas

[noonereal]

Skeptical.

Aint' the same thing.

Chas

:rolleyes: You sure you haven't crossed that line.

[Charles]

:rolleyes: You sure you haven't crossed that line.

Positive.

I'm a happy guy, I work at it like a job.

Chas

[finnbow]

Of course the stimulus plan worked better than doing nothing. Only the Three Stooges (Limbaugh, Beck and Hannity) say otherwise. Injecting a trillion bucks into the economy is going to have positive short term consequences.

It remains to be seen when the ship of state finally gets righted whether the Fools on the Hill can get a grip on spending enough to pay down some of the accumulated debt. Their performance to date on spending restraint hasn't been particularly admirable.

[d-ray657]

How much bang for the buck has the nation garnished form this. Short term, you dump a couple of trillion out, somebody's gonna get fat.

Long term, we'll see.

It's easy to live large on borrowed money, until you can't pay the interest.

Chas

I understand the need to get the deficit - and the debt - under control. According to the article, however, we would be in an even worse debt position if the recession had been allowed to slip into a depression.

Here is a cite to the actual report. You might understand economic jargon better than I do.

http://www.economy.com/mark-zandi/documents/Economic_Stimulus_House_Plan_012109.pdf

Regards,

D-Ray

[JJIII]

Here ya go Chas:

http://abmp3.com/download/1844088-whistle-while-you-work.html

[noonereal]

Positive.

I'm a happy guy, I work at it like a job.

Chas

:rolleyes: well you defiantly "were" until positive reports about obie were released. ;)

[noonereal]

Here ya go Chas:

http://abmp3.com/download/1844088-whistle-while-you-work.html

:eek: it's an MP3!

[Charles]

I understand the need to get the deficit - and the debt - under control. According to the article, however, we would be in an even worse debt position if the recession had been allowed to slip into a depression.

Here is a cite to the actual report. You might understand economic jargon better than I do.

http://www.economy.com/mark-zandi/documents/Economic_Stimulus_House_Plan_012109.pdf

Regards,

D-Ray

Damn, Don, couldn't you find something a little more short winded?

I'm half drunk, and this isn't a quick read.

Besides, I need to slip uptown for some more good cheer, and KOPN (cornpone), college station, it playing some exceptional tunes.

And I'm involved in comparing my new Grado 225's to my 60's and my Hornshoppes. The 225's, pushed through a Little Dot 1+, are winning.

But I do know one thing for a fact. Get a LD 1+ with a set of Grado 225's, used...be the best $200 you can spend for high fidelity.

Absolutely stunning. And the LD seems to love Sylvania JAN 6AK5's.

Chas

[Charles]

In case anyone was worried.

I have returned, armed with a fresh 6 pak of Boulevard frosty tops, having slipped under the radar of the local Gestapo.

But it is Bugtussell, and I do ride in Lancelot's armor, although some of the new cops don't realize it.

Anyway, the little dog thought is was a hoot!!!

Back to testing the 225's. I'm thinking Heart??? Take Five look appealing as well. Might even be time to ignore the Dynavector and try the DL-160.

A hard world, full of hard choices.

Chas

[Charles]

Here ya go Chas:

http://abmp3.com/download/1844088-whistle-while-you-work.html

Never could get it to open, apparently my blocking software works too good at times.

Don, I finally read your article and Zandi did make a strong case for TARP and the stimulus package. Considering that the article was dated 1/09, his predictions were pretty accurate. I would think that these funds have saved us from a more severe downturn.

As to whether these policies have sufficiently primed the pump of the economic engine is debatable. A lot of the data coming out is misrepresented or taken out of context. Unemployment figures and housing starts come to mind, or at least to my mind.

I haven't noticed a great deal of people dancing in the streets as of yet. People are still sour on the economy, and for good reason. And, as far as I'm concerned, the book is still open on whether these policies have saved the nation or simply thrown more good money after bad.

And Finn makes a valid point that the fools on the hill have yet to control their spending.

And even Noon has a point, the rosy data coming out does not make me happy. But it's not because I want the economy to fail so that more Republicans get elected. It's because I simply don't believe it.

Chas

[d-ray657]

Hey Chas, in case you were looking for more reading, I posted the wrong link. The link I meant to post was a study released on July 27, 2010. This one. (http://www.economy.com/mark-zandi/documents/End-of-Great-Recession.pdf) Sorry. :o

Regards,

D-Ray

[JJIII]

Never could get it to open, apparently my blocking software works too good at times.



Chas

No big deal. It was an MP3 of "Whistle While You Work".

[JJIII]

:eek: it's an MP3!

Please don't beat me for that!!!:o

[merrylander]

Well according to an article in the Time that just came today there is no need to worry about a double dip recession because 95% of those affected have yet to get out of the first dip.

BTW the cover will make you ill.

[noonereal]

Well according to an article in the Time that just came today there is no need to worry about a double dip recession because 95% of those affected have yet to get out of the first dip.

BTW the cover will make you ill.

The 5% saved were the investor class that got us into this mess.
And the wheel went round and round...

[Charles]

Hey Chas, in case you were looking for more reading, I posted the wrong link. The link I meant to post was a study released on July 27, 2010. This one. (http://www.economy.com/mark-zandi/documents/End-of-Great-Recession.pdf) Sorry. :o

Regards,

D-Ray

Don't know about you Don. First you post a long winded article for me to digest, and once I do, you tell me you made a mistake and post a 2nd long winded article.

I thought I should post something for you. It won't take long to digest.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lutUDZ7Dq0s

Chas

[d-ray657]

Don't know about you Don. First you post a long winded article for me to digest, and once I do, you tell me you made a mistake and post a 2nd long winded article.

I thought I should post something for you. It won't take long to digest.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lutUDZ7Dq0s

Chas

Never tried to hide the fact that I am a doofus. Looks like Bush's handlers had their hands full trying to hide that fact about him.

Regards,

D-Ray

[noonereal]

Don't know about you Don. First you post a long winded article for me to digest, and once I do, you tell me you made a mistake and post a 2nd long winded article.

I thought I should post something for you. It won't take long to digest.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lutUDZ7Dq0s

Chas

The guy in that video is an idiot. I feel for his dad.

[Charles]

Never tried to hide the fact that I am a doofus. Looks like Bush's handlers had their hands full trying to hide that fact about him.

Regards,

D-Ray

I thought you were just making work for me.

Chas

[d-ray657]

I thought you were just making work for me.

Chas

I probably should have realized that you were going to take the issue seriously enough to read the article, been in less of a hurry just to get the link up and taken the time to make sure it was the right one. I can assure you, however, that I have done no editing to either article, and the text appearing at both links accurately represents what the authors intended to say.:rolleyes:

Actually, reading the earlier article slightly reduces the credibility of the recent one. He had an incentive, at least in terms of his professional reputation, to conduct a study that verified his predictions. On the other hand, I looks like he used the same tools to conduct the second analysis as he did to conduct the first. Therefore, it's not surprising that he's seeing the same trends a year an a half later.

Regards,

D-Ray

[Charles]

I probably should have realized that you were going to take the issue seriously enough to read the article, been in less of a hurry just to get the link up and taken the time to make sure it was the right one. I can assure you, however, that I have done no editing to either article, and the text appearing at both links accurately represents what the authors intended to say.:rolleyes:

Actually, reading the earlier article slightly reduces the credibility of the recent one. He had an incentive, at least in terms of his professional reputation, to conduct a study that verified his predictions. On the other hand, I looks like he used the same tools to conduct the second analysis as he did to conduct the first. Therefore, it's not surprising that he's seeing the same trends a year an a half later.

Regards,

D-Ray

I guess this would be the opposing viewpoint to the articles you posted. Just a touch sarcastic.

But I found it entertaining!!!

http://www.financialsense.com/contributors/jim-quinn/the-ruling-elite-called

Chas

[d-ray657]

I suppose if one were to put Mr. Quinn in any particular box, it would be close to libertarian. (I went on to read a few of his other articles - slow lazy Sunday afternoon.) His distrust of government seems to be equally matched with his distrust of the financial elite. "A pox on both your houses."

I can stand his concern about the cost of providing long term benefits for citizens, and I particularly appreciate his take on the manipulation of people's fears to cause us to support the military industrial complex with our financial resources and the lives of our young men and women.

It wasn't clear to me what his position is with respect to regulations. On one hand it seems like deregulation is a good thing, and on another, he decries the ability of Haliburton to evade regulation and cause environmental disasters. He seems to have enough common sense to conclude that the market will not sufficiently control harmful actions that some pursuits of profits will cause.

Obviously, I disagree with him about the utility of unions. To me, they fit within the idea of a market economy. They allow workers to collectively use the power of their physical contribution to the wealth of a company to compete with collective economic power that is centralized in the owners of the capital.

It was food for thought at least. Thanks for the link.

Regards,

D-Ray

P.S. I suppose that by reading a few more of Quinn's articles, I have done penance for posting the wrong link.:rolleyes:

[Charles]

I suppose if one were to put Mr. Quinn in any particular box, it would be close to libertarian. (I went on to read a few of his other articles - slow lazy Sunday afternoon.) His distrust of government seems to be equally matched with his distrust of the financial elite. "A pox on both your houses."

I can stand his concern about the cost of providing long term benefits for citizens, and I particularly appreciate his take on the manipulation of people's fears to cause us to support the military industrial complex with our financial resources and the lives of our young men and women.

It wasn't clear to me what his position is with respect to regulations. On one hand it seems like deregulation is a good thing, and on another, he decries the ability of Haliburton to evade regulation and cause environmental disasters. He seems to have enough common sense to conclude that the market will not sufficiently control harmful actions that some pursuits of profits will cause.

Obviously, I disagree with him about the utility of unions. To me, they fit within the idea of a market economy. They allow workers to collectively use the power of their physical contribution to the wealth of a company to compete with collective economic power that is centralized in the owners of the capital.

It was food for thought at least. Thanks for the link.

Regards,

D-Ray

P.S. I suppose that by reading a few more of Quinn's articles, I have done penance for posting the wrong link.:rolleyes:

I think it was more of a rant than anything. Identifying problems is the easy part, offering solutions a bit more difficult.

Chas

[merrylander]

The laughable part of arguments against things like social security and medicare is that Canada has both in spades and also a balanced budget, so much for that BS.

[d-ray657]

The laughable part of arguments against things like social security and medicare is that Canada has both in spades and also a balanced budget, so much for that BS.

Rob, are that age demographics in Canada similar to those in the U.S.?

Regards,

D-Ray

[merrylander]

Rob, are that age demographics in Canada similar to those in the U.S.?

Regards,

D-Ray

Thanks to Single Payer Canadians on average live longer than Americans, in fact overall health statistics run in their favour. The Old Age Security pension runs about $650 per month and if that is your sole income they will add another $650. Then there is the Canada Pension Plan that people contribute to so that works much like SS here. No sure how the birth rate compares but I would imagine they are facing the same increase in the older population. As well most larger corporations all have reliable pension plans.

[BlueStreak]

But, see, here in the US we believe that only lazy, stupid, whiny, little crybabies think they need a pension, or healthcare benefits.

"Great Americans" work until they die............. (Koo Koo--Koo Koo--Koo Koo........)

Dave

[merrylander]

I worked until 73 mainly because I was enjoying what I was doing, then TI bought up the company and slowly imposed their corporate structure - that did it so I quit.

[merrylander]

But, see, here in the US we believe that only lazy, stupid, whiny, little crybabies think they need a pension, or healthcare benefits.

"Great Americans" work until they die............. (Koo Koo--Koo Koo--Koo Koo........)

Dave

Was it not Dr. Goebbels who said "If you repeat a lie often enough . . .":rolleyes:

[piece-itpete]

... Their performance to date on spending restraint hasn't been particularly admirable.

Your understatedness is cracking me up! :D

.. It's because I simply don't believe it.

Chas

Hear hear! Any balanced analysis will have the good and bad. Good and good, bogus.

Well according to an article in the Time that just came today there is no need to worry about a double dip recession because 95% of those affected have yet to get out of the first dip.

BTW the cover will make you ill.

That the wonderful Taliban related one? And morons like the wikilieaks guy keep talking about a reconciliation with them. Bah. That poor girl.

Pete

[merrylander]

Too bad they stopped research on the Cobalt bomb.

[whell]

I'm not sure how anyone can write the history of the Stimulus Package when:

- we're still in the midst of the economic challenges that precipitated the passage of the first stimulus
- we still don't appear to be done with our desire to pass stimulus plans. How many have their been? 3 at least. The article appears to be referring to the first stimulus. If so, why did we then need stimulus 2 and 3?
- news is moving today that the recovery, such as it was, may be running out of steam. Might the stimulus then simply have postponed an inevitable further economic collapse?

Why do we need to write history when we still might be living in the middle of it?

[d-ray657]

I'm not sure how anyone can write the history of the Stimulus Package when:

- we're still in the midst of the economic challenges that precipitated the passage of the first stimulus
- we still don't appear to be done with our desire to pass stimulus plans. How many have their been? 3 at least. The article appears to be referring to the first stimulus. If so, why did we then need stimulus 2 and 3?
- news is moving today that the recovery, such as it was, may be running out of steam. Might the stimulus then simply have postponed an inevitable further economic collapse?

Why do we need to write history when we still might be living in the middle of it?

Why do coaches review the first half of games at halftime. We need to see what's working and what is not.

Regards,

D-Ray

[BlueStreak]

I'm not sure how anyone can write the history of the Stimulus Package when:

- we're still in the midst of the economic challenges that precipitated the passage of the first stimulus
- we still don't appear to be done with our desire to pass stimulus plans. How many have their been? 3 at least. The article appears to be referring to the first stimulus. If so, why did we then need stimulus 2 and 3?
- news is moving today that the recovery, such as it was, may be running out of steam. Might the stimulus then simply have postponed an inevitable further economic collapse?

Why do we need to write history when we still might be living in the middle of it?


Why do the people who make cheap sliced cheese neglect to put anything between the slices? By the time you open the package the slices have fused back together into one brick anyhow, so if you're not going to individually wrap or separate them with wax paper then why bother slicing them in the first place?

Dave

[d-ray657]

Why do they build highways where you have to be in the East lane to go West or in the South Lane to go North (when the North lane goes East)?

Regards,

D-Ray

[JJIII]

Minute 2:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T09XWRkq5M

[noonereal]

Minute 2:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T09XWRkq5M

you OK today?

[JJIII]

you OK today?

WHY???? :)




Yeah, I'm good! Hope you are too.

[noonereal]

WHY???? :)




Yeah, I'm good! Hope you are too.


I was a little concerned after viewing the link.

Seemed a bit irrational a post. Maybe it just did not translate well.

It is a fine day out.

all the best!

[JJIII]

I was a little concerned after viewing the link.

Seemed a bit irrational a post. Maybe it just did not translate well.

It is a fine day out.

all the best!

See Bluestreak's and D-ray's posts just before.
May be just my warped sense of humor!

[d-ray657]

See Bluestreak's and D-ray's posts just before.
May be just my warped sense of humor!

If it helps, I got it. But then again, I've been told my sense of humor is warped too. For a second, though, I thought you might be calling us crybabies.:rolleyes:

Regards,

D-Ray

[JJIII]

If it helps, I got it. But then again, I've been told my sense of humor is warped too. For a second, though, I thought you might be calling us crybabies.:rolleyes:

Regards,

D-Ray

Nope.... just thought I'd add a "WHY" in there.:D

[d-ray657]

Nope.... just thought I'd add a "WHY" in there.:D

Why do birds suddenly appear
Every time you are near?

. . .

Why do stars fall down from the sky
Every time you walk by?

That song made me want to puke every time it came on the radio. :eek: Thank God I discovered FM.

I guess I was the OP here, so I don't have to apologize for the thread hijack.

Regards,

D-Ray

[Boreas]

Why do birds suddenly appear
Every time you are near?

. . .

Why do stars fall down from the sky
Every time you walk by?

Why? Oh,Why? Oh, Why? Oh.
Why did I ever leave Ohio?

*******

Why do birds sing so gay?
And lovers await the break of the day?
Why do they fall in love?

*******

John

[noonereal]

That song made me want to puke every time it came on the radio.

Regards,

D-Ray


:rolleyes: Oh, I guess it's Rap.

[finnbow]

Why? Oh,Why? Oh, Why? Oh.
Why did I ever leave Ohio?

*******

Why do birds sing so gay?
And lovers await the break of the day?
Why do they fall in love?

*******

John

Get a room, guys.:D

[BlueStreak]

Why? Oh,Why? Oh, Why? Oh.
Why did I ever leave Ohio?

John

"Drifting with the current, down a moolit stream while above the heavens in their glory gleam and the stars on high, twinkle the sky. Dreaming in a paradise of love devine, dreaming of a pair of eyes that look into mine, Beautiful Ohio in dreams again I see visions of what used to be........................":)

Dave

[whell]

Why do coaches review the first half of games at halftime. We need to see what's working and what is not.

Regards,

D-Ray

No, that's quite different. To write a report saying the stimulus has worked, using your analogy, would be like the coach and the team in the locker room at half time trying to celebrate a victory, while the scoreboard still shows them trailing by at least a touchdown.

To put a finer point on it, lets assume the team that's leading is the New Orleans Saints, and the team that's down by a touchdown is the Detroit Lions (by history, not a team that has ever been a great 3rd or 4th quarter team). :)

[noonereal]

No, that's quite different. To write a report saying the stimulus has worked, using your analogy, would be like the coach and the team in the locker room at half time trying to celebrate a victory, while the scoreboard still shows them trailing by at least a touchdown.

.

No it would be like a coach at half time sticking with the game plan because it is working. Problem is although it is working they were down by 3 scores when the "new game" started.

Speaking of football, it's almost here!