I have to admit it

[Twodogs]

I saw Obama's speech in Lisbon this morning and I have to say I really liked it. I felt like he was actually defending America and not apologizing. I wonder if he may be moving a hair towards the middle? I was pretty shocked when I came away feeling good about his speech.:eek:

[Fast_Eddie]

I didn't see it, but glad to hear your review.

I don't think you'd like it if he moved toward the middle. In this country we only have to parties- the super right wing party and the less right wing party. If he moved to the middle he'd become more liberal.

[finnbow]

I didn't hear it either, but I must say that previous speeches in which the Right went nuts for him "apologizing" didn't strike me as apologetic, just pragmatic, truthful, and respectful of other cultures. The fact that he doesn't deliver in-your-face diatribes of exceptionalism when he is overseas is something to be admired IMHO.

[Twodogs]

That's one of the things I liked about Bush. Those other countries thought he was nuts enough to just bomb there asses off, so we got some props.;)

[finnbow]

That's one of the things I liked about Bush. Those other countries thought he was nuts enough to just bomb there asses off, so we got some props.;)

He didn't just seem nuts enough to do that, he did it (in Iraq). It didn't work out all that swimmingly.:( As for props, he got none.

[noonereal]

He didn't just seem nuts enough to do that, he did it (in Iraq). It didn't work out all that swimmingly.:( As for props, he got none.

the truth has been spoken

[BlueStreak]

I didn't hear it either, but I must say that previous speeches in which the Right went nuts for him "apologizing" didn't strike me as apologetic, just pragmatic, truthful, and respectful of other cultures. The fact that he doesn't deliver in-your-face diatribes of exceptionalism when he is overseas is something to be admired IMHO.

I would have to agree with this.

I was raised with the belief, "It takes more of a man to face those whom he has wronged.", and I've always regarded the refusal to do so as arrogant, egotistical machismo. Some seem to see it as strength, or saving face. I don't and never will.

We have done a lot of great good in this world. But, we are not perfect and there is some seriously ugly shiznit in our past. I see nothing wrong with recognizing it. In fact, I prefer leaders who take the more pragmatic approach.

Dave

[BlueStreak]

He didn't just seem nuts enough to do that, he did it (in Iraq). It didn't work out all that swimmingly.:( As for props, he got none.

Why don't folks on the right see what a huge black eye this gave our international relations? Since his book came out we now know for a fact there were no WMDs. GW says so himself. You can argue about what he knew and when. But the fact remains that in the eyes of much of the world, our reasons for invading were bogus. We went in, found no WMDs, then proceeded to make up other reasons for our being there.

Bad. Very, very, bad.

Dave

[noonereal]

Why don't folks on the right see what a huge black eye this gave our international relations? Since his book came out we now know for a fact there were no WMDs. GW says so himself. You can argue about what he knew and when. But the fact remains that in the eyes of much of the world, our reasons for invading were bogus. We went in, found no WMDs, then proceeded to make up other reasons for our being there.

Bad. Very, very, bad.

Dave

we had no reason to go into Iraq if they had WMD or not.

the country was contained!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[merrylander]

There are about 5000 of our bravest and best who might have an opinion about Dubya, sadly they cannot talk.

[Twodogs]

As do the Iraqi people, who are no longer under the thumb of Sadam, and actually get to vote. Before you all start picking it apart for not being perfect, nothing is, including our own electoral system. Anyone remember Acorn?:p

[Fast_Eddie]

That's one of the things I liked about Bush. Those other countries thought he was nuts enough to just bomb there asses off, so we got some props.;)

I can't get on board with this. Sorry, it just sounds too much like some gang thug who's gonna "pop a cap in my ass" because I "disrespected" him. Really? Is that what we've come to?

[Fast_Eddie]

As do the Iraqi people, who are no longer under the thumb of Sadam, and actually get to vote. Before you all start picking it apart for not being perfect, nothing is, including our own electoral system. Anyone remember Acorn?:p

It's great that Iraq is a better place than it was. But what about all the other places that are much, much worse? Why didn't we invade those? Why don't we do it now? Is that worth a trillion U.S. dollars?

As for our flawed system, remember 2000?

[merrylander]

I remember ACORN, I also remember that nothing was ever proven.

[finnbow]

As do the Iraqi people, who are no longer under the thumb of Sadam, and actually get to vote. Before you all start picking it apart for not being perfect, nothing is, including our own electoral system. Anyone remember Acorn?:p

The trouble is that there is at least 2.1 million less Iraqis left to vote. At least 100,000 noncombatants have been killed and 2 million are refugees. Given the choice, I suspect many of these would have rather been under Saddam's thumb.

[piece-itpete]

He didn't just seem nuts enough to do that, he did it (in Iraq). It didn't work out all that swimmingly.:( As for props, he got none.

Yes, it did.

Pete

[merrylander]

Right, so now ddinnerjacket sends his bagman in with bundles of money and al Malikai kisses his arse, yessir a raging success.:rolleyes:

[piece-itpete]

..........

[piece-itpete]

And think about what a functioning democracy means to the morons in Iran - they must be terrified.

Pete

[merrylander]

Well so far it does not seem to be functioning very well, if at all.

I am real curious about this handing out democracy at the point of a gun. I also have a hell of a diffcult time remembering who it was that gave the US of A its democratic republic, I was under the impression that they took it, it was not a gift. Guess Dubya was a poor history student - you cannot give people democracy, they must want it badly enought to take it - now write that on the board one hundred times, it just might sink in.

[finnbow]

And think about what a functioning democracy means to the morons in Iran - they must be terrified.

Pete

Just where is this functioning democracy? The Iraqis have not seated a government since their election 8 months ago.

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/11/iraqis-on-political-deal-meet-the-new-boss/

The winner in the Iraq war was Iran. Now, rather than having an antagonistic and well armed Sunni government on their border (Saddam), they have a compliant Shia one. The US did for Iran what they couldn't do for themselves in the Iran/Iraq war.

[piece-itpete]

I'm sure that with the US military surrounding Iran they feel very much the winner.

Well so far it does not seem to be functioning very well, if at all.

I am real curious about this handing out democracy at the point of a gun. I also have a hell of a diffcult time remembering who it was that gave the US of A its democratic republic, I was under the impression that they took it, it was not a gift. Guess Dubya was a poor history student - you cannot give people democracy, they must want it badly enought to take it - now write that on the board one hundred times, it just might sink in.

I will not trust Bush. I will not trust Bush. I will not trust Bush. ...

How's that? :D

We will see. But regardless, we did win the 'unwinnable' action there, and there were many good reasons to can Saddam.

Pete

[finnbow]

I'm sure that with the US military surrounding Iran they feel very much the winner.

We will see. But regardless, we did win the 'unwinnable' action there, and there were many good reasons to can Saddam.

Pete

To your first point, Iran knows damn well we won't and can't attack them. We have no gas left in our tanks, as it were. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan effectively neutered us. Iraq was a far greater danger to Iran than we were. Iran had over a million casualties in the Iran/Iraq war and we got rid of the threat on their border. Smart move.

As for "many good reason to can Saddam," go ahead and name "many." I can't think of one that was worth the price in American and Iraqi lives.

[piece-itpete]

I've argued the reasons for Iraq, I'm not going there. Just one comment, there is a reason the Left went along with it, and it wasn't faulty intelligence.

If the most powerful military the world has ever known is spent after two minor actions there is a problem. And Iran knows it.

Pete

[finnbow]

If the most powerful military the world has ever known is spent after two minor actions there is a problem.

The problem derives from spending a decade doing what we should have done in a couple of months.

[piece-itpete]

Nukes?

Pete

[merrylander]

All it would have taken is maybe a half dozen bunker busters at Tora Bora and bin Laden would be sealed in a mountain. Unfortuatley we may have some of the best soldiers in the world we also have some of the lousiest generals, Petraeous may be the only good one we have left.

I am just glad that I don't have to be the one ringing doorbells and telling people - 'Your son, husband, father is coming home through Dover AFB because a bunch of tired old men wanted to play soldier.'

[noonereal]

All it would have taken is maybe a half dozen bunker busters at Tora Bora and bin Laden would be sealed in a mountain. Unfortuatley we may have some of the best soldiers in the world we also have some of the lousiest generals, Petraeous may be the only good one we have left.

I am just glad that I don't have to be the one ringing doorbells and telling people - 'Your son, husband, father is coming home through Dover AFB because a bunch of tired old men wanted to play soldier.'

wasn't Big Dick the one who decided a small army would be effective at Tora Bora? (and elsewhere)

[piece-itpete]

They were trying for both smaller military and smaller civilian casualties, apparently an object of ridicule.

Unfortunately they overestimated the condition of the Iraq government & civil society outside Saddam.

It is well known that counterinsurgency actions take time. And I would never tell the surviving family that their kids died for nothing.

Pete

[merrylander]

So what exactly did they die for?

Wolfowwitz and Rummy were bound and determined that we were going into Iraq. They both were fully aware that there were no WMDs. Still remember th pictur of those two coming down the WhiteHouse steps grinning from ear to ear because they knew we were going into Iraq. Of course neither of them had anyone in the military so why would they worry.

The Shia and the Sunni have hated each other since Adam, you expect that they will form a government? If they do it will only be to gang up on the Kurds.

Sorry that I omitted Roy Odierno in my last post, he's a good man.

[noonereal]

They were trying for both smaller military and smaller civilian casualties, apparently an object of ridicule.

It was another failed policy.


And I would never tell the surviving family that their kids died for nothing.

Pete[/QUOTE]

they did not die for nothing. They died for corporate oil profits and the families should know otherwise this will happen again.

[Twodogs]

I find it odd that history tells us that our economy should be rebounding due to the fact of the wars we are fighting, yet we continue to go deeper and deeper into this "recesion".:confused: If I were going to rid the world of insane dictators with or close to nuclear weapons, I'd start with North Korea, then obliterate Iran. Then after the rest of the world got a good look at the scorched earth, I'd have a serious talk with China. I'd be sure they understand that the dollar is backed by Plutonium, not Gold.:)

[noonereal]

I find it odd that history tells us that our economy should be rebounding due to the fact of the wars we are fighting, )

how so? how does war help the economy?
doesn't it just help corporate profits?

[BlueStreak]

I find it odd that history tells us that our economy should be rebounding due to the fact of the wars we are fighting, yet we continue to go deeper and deeper into this "recesion".:confused: If I were going to rid the world of insane dictators with or close to nuclear weapons, I'd start with North Korea, then obliterate Iran. Then after the rest of the world got a good look at the scorched earth, I'd have a serious talk with China. I'd be sure they understand that the dollar is backed by Plutonium, not Gold.:)

We are not going "deeper and deeper" into this recession (Two S's). We hit bottom and rebounded albeit partially.

Wars do not generate wealth, they squander it. WW2 was an exception because all of our competitors lie in ruins with no one to get materials, steel, lumber, etc., from but us.

Dave

[merrylander]

The problem with a nuclear solution goes back to the concept of the cobalt bomb. look it up and save me the typing. If we flatten North Korea we might well decimate South Korea, depends on the prevaling winds. Or perhaps areas of China, and that for political reasons at home would leave them no choice but to retaliate. Ditto for Iran, would not leave too much of the middle east free from radiation.

Of course if you are one of the chosen according to St. John the Divine and the Book of Revelations, go for it.:rolleyes:

[piece-itpete]

So what exactly did they die for?


The same thing they always do. Either duty, or honor, or because they signed the dotted line. At least it's not for rape and plunder.

they did not die for nothing. They died for corporate oil profits and the families should know otherwise this will happen again.

The price of oil doesn't affect us all?

Pete

[noonereal]

The price of oil doesn't affect us all?

Pete

this is so wrong on so many levels.

You do realize you are justifying po0r folks blood for rich men's oil profits???

[piece-itpete]

I know that $10/gallon gas wouldn't help the poor either.

Oil is a world security interest.

Pete

[noonereal]

I know that $10/gallon gas wouldn't help the poor either.

Oil is a world security interest.

Pete

pete
your entire though process here leaves me confused
it is just wrong on so many levels (IMHO of course)

where do I start?

why not slaughter any of the folks in Iraq and lose no american lives and instead spend the same money to evolve solar and other energies?

don't you think that is much preferable to what we did?

and don't forget this banner is generated by you not wanting to tell parents honestlywhy their child died

[piece-itpete]

I would lie to the parents and family? They died following orders - doing their duty.

I would never compomise that, cheapen that, because I didn't agree with the Commander in Chief.

Alternate energy is fine, but we live in a functioning world right this second, and it functions on oil. Including getting aid to poor worldwide. $10/gallon gas and that aid goes out the window. Food, medicine, clothing. A disaster that would end up costing millions of lives.

Pete

[noonereal]

I would lie to the parents and family? They died following orders - doing their duty.

I would never compomise that, cheapen that, because I didn't agree with the Commander in Chief.


I can only go on what you say. Your posts are above.


Alternate energy is fine, but we live in a functioning world right this second, and it functions on oil. Including getting aid to poor worldwide. $10/gallon gas and that aid goes out the window. Food, medicine, clothing. A disaster that would end up costing millions of lives.

Pete


Right here and now we have plenty of oil.
and BTW Iraq has had a disaster, "disaster USA" 1,421,933 dead

[BlueStreak]

The price of oil doesn't affect us all?

Pete


Every year the cost of getting that oil out of the Iraqi fields is climbing higher and higher in terms of both dollars and human life.

At what point is it no longer worth it?

Do the Ten Commandments tell us;

"Thou shalt not kill. Unless, of course, your enemy has a lucrative natural resource you're after, and a dictator you could have killed decades ago to use as an excuse for waging said war over, after having realized the original excuse, (Weapons of Mass Destruction), was bogus."?:rolleyes:

Dave

[piece-itpete]

I hate when people tell me I'd better do something or God will punish me.

:p

The literal translation is 'shall not murder'. A soldier shooting an enemy is not murder.

What we've done in Iraq is similar to what we've done almost all over the world, Europe, SE Asia, etc. We've remade the ME.

And again, a stable supply of oil is VITAL for the entire world. We wouldn't starve if gas hit $10 (though we wouldn't be happy), but a fair portion of the world would.

Pete

[noonereal]

I hate when people tell me I'd better do something or God will punish me.

:p

The literal translation is 'shall not murder'. A soldier shooting an enemy is not murder.

What we've done in Iraq is similar to what we've done almost all over the world, Europe, SE Asia, etc. We've remade the ME.

And again, a stable supply of oil is VITAL for the entire world. We wouldn't starve if gas hit $10 (though we wouldn't be happy), but a fair portion of the world would.

Pete

:confused:

literal translation??? there is no literal translation


a soldier killing a soldier is ok to God?

Pete, don't know as I can agree with much you have said in this thread.

gas at 10 would not be cataclysmic, why do you think it would be?

with a little investment oil would not be vital

it is being kept artificially vital by the profits it creates

[merrylander]

I think what Pete meant is that the correct translation is "Thou shall not murder", it is quite surprising how many incorrect translations were done on the ancient Greek and Aramic.

[piece-itpete]

Thanks Rob.

Noone, everything, every last little thing, moves by truck. Often multiple moves. Gas zoomed to $3, frt rates went WAY up (I deal with frt for work). It hits ten, global recession.

Pete

[d-ray657]

OK Pete, let's assume that trucking remains vital to our economy, even as oil supplies get depleted and the price rises. Would not finding and developing affordable alternatives to oil consumption by commuters (including improved mass transit) ease the cost of oil for trucking. There has to be a way to encourage everyone to use less fossil fuel. People look for convenience, however. If mass transit has spotty service, it will be used as a last resort. On the other hand, when mass transit is readily available (and socially acceptable) its use will increase, and personal consumption will go down. That of course takes some significant investment in infrastructure.

Regards,

D-Ray

[merrylander]

We really need to subsidize our railways like we do trucking and flying, more efficient, less polluting.

[Twodogs]

For some reason I feel certain that we will have plenty of oil (and the wealth that goes with it) when Sara Palin becomes President of these United States. There are untold billions of gallons in Alaska just waiting to be tapped, and with sideways drilling techniques, the Moose will still have plenty of room to "get down". Shallow water off shore drilling can produce billions more. We have got to stop this daily transfer of wealth to our enemies, and I believe Dear Sara has enough common sense to know that, and enough balls to get it done.

[noonereal]

For some reason I feel certain that we will have plenty of oil (and the wealth that goes with it) when Sara Palin becomes President of these United States. There are untold billions of gallons in Alaska just waiting to be tapped, and with sideways drilling techniques, the Moose will still have plenty of room to "get down". Shallow water off shore drilling can produce billions more. We have got to stop this daily transfer of wealth to our enemies, and I believe Dear Sara has enough common sense to know that, and enough balls to get it done.

Sarah is an idiot.

[Twodogs]

Sarah is an idiot.

Compared to your boy, she's a Brain Surgeon and a Rocket Scientist.:p

[d-ray657]

For some reason I feel certain that we will have plenty of oil (and the wealth that goes with it) when Sara Palin becomes President of these United States. There are untold billions of gallons in Alaska just waiting to be tapped, and with sideways drilling techniques, the Moose will still have plenty of room to "get down". Shallow water off shore drilling can produce billions more. We have got to stop this daily transfer of wealth to our enemies, and I believe Dear Sara has enough common sense to know that, and enough balls to get it done.

That sounds like SP. Do the easy thing now, consequences be damned. Drill fast and furious, encourage land yachts again, forget about alternative energy or alternative transportation, not to mention putting more toxins into the air. Her rich benefactors will be happy, the oil will flow for 15-20 years, and once again we'll be behind the curve wondering why the air is so dirty and why the cost of fuel is too high. The oil flowing will produce wealth - very concentrated wealth - but the powers that be will send some more cash toward their showgirl to reward her for her faithful service the the rightful rulers of the world. Not to worry, the vast majority of American still see through her. She is over-exposing herself now, and the brand dilution is going to cost her if she decides she would rather be a politician instead of a celebrity.

Regards,

D-Ray

[d-ray657]

Compared to your boy, she's a Brain Surgeon and a Rocket Scientist.:p

When was the last time Sarah had to answer a tough question that she couldn't answer by spouting talking points? Do you really think she could stand up to the same scrutiny the the President has faced? She quit the last elected position she had because it was getting uncomfortable. She makes much better money as a talking head for the powers that be than as a representative of the people of Alaska. We just saw what the people of Alaska really think of her, beating her hand-picked stooge with a write in vote. She is much better maligning other people's courage than she is at demonstrating her own.

I would much rather have the man who had the courage to make tough and sometimes unpopular decisions, which prevented us from facing a real depression. His intervention kept the US from losing one of its bedrock industries. Now. Corporate America had record profits in the third quarter this year - RECORD PROFITS. How have they showed their appreciation - they've hoarded it. Corporate America doesn't give a damn about workers, but you just elected people who want to hand them a huge tax cut, and you want to elect a president who will open the till even further for them. I'll never figure out why people want to help the rich get richer while the middle class disappears.

Regards,

D-Ray

[noonereal]

When was the last time Sarah had to answer a tough question that she couldn't answer by spouting talking points? Do you really think she could stand up to the same scrutiny the the President has faced? She quit the last elected position she had because it was getting uncomfortable. She makes much better money as a talking head for the powers that be than as a representative of the people of Alaska. We just saw what the people of Alaska really think of her, beating her hand-picked stooge with a write in vote. She is much better maligning other people's courage than she is at demonstrating her own.

I would much rather have the man who had the courage to make tough and sometimes unpopular decisions, which prevented us from facing a real depression. His intervention kept the US from losing one of its bedrock industries. Now. Corporate America had record profits in the third quarter this year - RECORD PROFITS. How have they showed their appreciation - they've hoarded it. Corporate America doesn't give a damn about workers, but you just elected people who want to hand them a huge tax cut, and you want to elect a president who will open the till even further for them. I'll never figure out why people want to help the rich get richer while the middle class disappears.

Regards,

D-Ray

Sarah is an idiot

this is nothing that needs to be validated

anyone who is not aware cannot be reasoned with

[Charles]

Did you guys know that Sarah Palin is a contributor on Fox News?

Let the feeding frenzy begin!!!

Chas

[piece-itpete]

OK Pete, let's assume that trucking remains vital to our economy, even as oil supplies get depleted and the price rises. Would not finding and developing affordable alternatives to oil consumption by commuters (including improved mass transit) ease the cost of oil for trucking. There has to be a way to encourage everyone to use less fossil fuel. People look for convenience, however. If mass transit has spotty service, it will be used as a last resort. On the other hand, when mass transit is readily available (and socially acceptable) its use will increase, and personal consumption will go down. That of course takes some significant investment in infrastructure.

Regards,

D-Ray

That's all fine and dandy, and we will find a way out.

But oil is NOW and there is no way around it.

Did you guys know that Sarah Palin is a contributor on Fox News?

Let the feeding frenzy begin!!!

Chas

Instigator!! :)

Pete

[merrylander]

For some reason I feel certain that we will have plenty of oil (and the wealth that goes with it) when Sara Palin becomes President of these United States. There are untold billions of gallons in Alaska just waiting to be tapped, and with sideways drilling techniques, the Moose will still have plenty of room to "get down". Shallow water off shore drilling can produce billions more. We have got to stop this daily transfer of wealth to our enemies, and I believe Dear Sara has enough common sense to know that, and enough balls to get it done.

Really? I did not realize she is a hermaphodite?:rolleyes:

BTW you do realize that BP, the folks who brought you the gulf oil spill are also in charge of the Alaska Pipeline? Reports are that they have done piss poor maintenance on it. Any bets on where the next oil spill is going to be?:p

[merrylander]

Sarah is an idiot.

You are being unkind to idiots.:p