Retiring head of Mossad echoes Abama.

[Dondilion]

The retiring head of Mossad, Meir Dagan, urges:
1~No attack on Iran
2~Peace talk with 1967 borders as reference.

www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/02/meir-ex-israeli-spymaster-netanyahu-swipe_n_870638.html

[Dondilion]

Dagan is informing the Israeli public of what Bibi has in mind. Because of Dagan's background it is not easy to shout him down. He has increase the chance for more open dialog both in israel and America.

[BlueStreak]

Very interesting. Thanks.

Dave

[JonL]

Hopefully he doesn't get shot by some right wing Israeli nut job extremist. (Boy, that was a lot of adjectives!)

[BlueStreak]

Yeah, that would be unfortunate. But, you have notice that wingnuts of any nationality just cannot stand being handed the truth?

Dave

[merrylander]

For pity's sake the arabs were offered deal based on the 67 lines twice and refused them both times. They will not be happy with anything but the total destruction of Israel, so screw them.

[BlueStreak]

Yeah, probably so.

Dave

[noonereal]

For pity's sake the arabs were offered deal based on the 67 lines twice and refused them both times. They will not be happy with anything but the total destruction of Israel, so screw them.

I don't understand your disdain for the Palestinians nor muslims in general. :confused:

[merrylander]

I don't understand your disdain for the Palestinians nor muslims in general. :confused:

To begin there is no such a nationality as a Palestinian, that was merely a fictional designation. The muslims AFAIK simply hate, that seems to be bred into them in their mad desire to turn the world into one giant caliphate. I don't care what religion anyone adopts or if they simply chose not to adopt any religion. I feel the same way about evangelists, you like your religion? - fine, just leave me to hell alone and stay out of my face.

[Combwork]

To begin there is no such a nationality as a Palestinian, that was merely a fictional designation. The muslims AFAIK simply hate, that seems to be bred into them in their mad desire to turn the world into one giant caliphate. I don't care what religion anyone adopts or if they simply chose not to adopt any religion. I feel the same way about evangelists, you like your religion? - fine, just leave me to hell alone and stay out of my face.

"To begin there is no such a nationality as a Palestinian, that was merely a fictional designation."


Ok, but although Jews have always held their belief in the promised land, it wasn't until 1948 that they actually got it. I've no time for Islam, it's a dangerous intolerant religion but forcing Palestinians out of their homes to make way for the nation of Israel was guaranteed to make the Palestinians consider Jews as their enemy. Could Israel, founded by force on 'stolen land' be considered by the people who lived there first as a "fictional designation"?

[BlueStreak]

"To begin there is no such a nationality as a Palestinian, that was merely a fictional designation."


Ok, but although Jews have always held their belief in the promised land, it wasn't until 1948 that they actually got it. I've no time for Islam, it's a dangerous intolerant religion but forcing Palestinians out of their homes to make way for the nation of Israel was guaranteed to make the Palestinians consider Jews as their enemy. Could Israel, founded by force on 'stolen land' be considered by the people who lived there first as a "fictional designation"?

Amen.

Let's see; A foreign entity, in this case the UN, decides the time has come for a bunch of foreigners, in this case European Jews, to return to their "Promised Land". A claim that has roots nowhere but in Judeo-Christian religious beliefs. Your family owns a sizable piece of property there, and has for centuries. Next, these supposed "chosen people" flood your homeland, whatever you want to call it, roll out the bulldozers, tanks and soldiers and start claiming their "God-given ancestral right" to YOUR property that your family has owned for centuries. You become angry and attempt to fight back. You are branded a "terrorist", denounced, shoved off of YOUR land, shot at and either killed or jailed if you resist.

I think we need to give Tennessee, Michigan and Ohio back to the Native Americans. It is, after all their ancestral home and I'm sure they can claim some spiritual "belief" that those states belong to them. So pack up guys, you're moving. Resist and we'll brand you as terrorists and kill you.:rolleyes:

See how that works?

Dave

P.s. Maybe if the Palestinians had the "Right to Bear Arms", the picture would be a little different? Or has the Israeli government stripped them of that?:p

[merrylander]

"To begin there is no such a nationality as a Palestinian, that was merely a fictional designation."


Ok, but although Jews have always held their belief in the promised land, it wasn't until 1948 that they actually got it. I've no time for Islam, it's a dangerous intolerant religion but forcing Palestinians out of their homes to make way for the nation of Israel was guaranteed to make the Palestinians consider Jews as their enemy. Could Israel, founded by force on 'stolen land' be considered by the people who lived there first as a "fictional designation"?

Back after WW I the League of Nations established a mandate to find a "home" for the Jewish people - note that it was a "home" not a nation. The area of that mandate covered what is present day Israel, Jordan and the Golan Heights.

Much of what is present day Tel Aviv was purchased with real money from the owners of the land. Lord Balfour - in his infinite wisdom - gave the Golan Heights to Syria (now there is a real sweetheart) and all of what he named TransJordan to the Hashemite kings.

Things more or less stayed peaceful but then got ugly, no one (including Britain) came out of it all smelling of roses. After the Holocaust they decided that they were done with being pushed around, the result being Israel. As to our being their defender they seem to have been able to take care of themselves. I used to work with a former Israeli air force pilot, how a guy his size handled a jet fighter I have no idea.

Despite all the conspiracy wingnuts no Jew ever knocked down our embassies or twin towers or the Pentagon. No Jew has ever wanted to convert me, although at one time our son was dating a Jewish girl with her parents blessing.

I am still waiting to hear all those peace loving muslims condemn the actions of the jihadist terrorists. But I am not holding my breath.

[BlueStreak]

Back after WW I the League of Nations established a mandate to find a "home" for the Jewish people - note that it was a "home" not a nation. The area of that mandate covered what is present day Israel, Jordan and the Golan Heights.

Much of what is present day Tel Aviv was purchased with real money from the owners of the land. Lord Balfour - in his infinite wisdom - gave the Golan Heights to Syria (now there is a real sweetheart) and all of what he named TransJordan to the Hashemite kings.

Things more or less stayed peaceful but then got ugly, no one (including Britain) came out of it all smelling of roses. After the Holocaust they decided that they were done with being pushed around, the result being Israel. As to our being their defender they seem to have been able to take care of themselves. I used to work with a former Israeli air force pilot, how a guy his size handled a jet fighter I have no idea.

Despite all the conspiracy wingnuts no Jew ever knocked down our embassies or twin towers or the Pentagon. No Jew has ever wanted to convert me, although at one time our son was dating a Jewish girl with her parents blessing.

I am still waiting to hear all those peace loving muslims condemn the actions of the jihadist terrorists. But I am not holding my breath.

I understand what you're saying. But, for my part, here is what I don't get...

"Back after WW I the League of Nations established a mandate to find a "home" for the Jewish people................."

Why? Why in the hell, did ANYONE, EVER have to "find a home for the Jewish people"? Whether it was the League of Nations, the UN, or whomever....What has the point in "finding a home" for these folks ever been?
Why can't they just go live wherever they end up, or relocate of their own volition like everyone else? Why did we have to find a spot for them, pave the way for them to go live there and then spend the next several decades fighting to protect their little Zionist paradise? What is that? Have we ever done this for anyone else? Relocated them because they wanted to be relocated, that is?

Hell, even the Mormons only ended up in Utah because they were run out of everywhere else and there was no one there at the time to run them off again. And they reached Utah under their own steam.

Ahhhhh, but Israel? Ooooooo, now that's different..............Really? Why?:confused:

The whole thing is just bizarre.

Dave

[whell]

The history gets complicated, and I won't try to pretend to grasp all of it. But, it boils down to this: the Jews began to scatter after the destruction of the kingdom of Israel. This dates back to around 750 BC os so. The tribes were already split due to who wouldn't accept who as rightful king of all of the tribes. But when the Assyrians conquered the kingdom of Isreal, they sent the Jews packing. Some went to Egypt or Babylon. Then the Persians conquered Babylon and sent the Jews there back to Jarusalem.

500 or so years later, the Maccabees retook Judea and the Jewish faith had a home again. That lasted for about 100 years or so until the Roams conquered and subjected the whole area.

At the end of the day, the concept of establishing a Jewish state was an attempt to found a modern Jewish state in the area that was once the Kingdom of Israel. Israelis had been scattered all over the Middle East and Europe for centuries.

Fast forward to modern history and the Balfour Declaration, there was already a formal effort to create a Jewish homeland in the area following the First World War. Anti-Semitism aws already alive and awell, and the thought was the security for the Jews could only be attained via a seperate state. The atrocities suffered by the Jews at the hands of the Nazi's, as well as Harry Truman getting behind the effort, made it happen.

[BlueStreak]

But, see, that's the whole thing........750BC? Or even "250 years later", which would still be over 2,500 years ago? Have you considered how many populations have moved around since then? But, no one really cares about any of them, do they? Any major efforts to return people of Mongolian descent that may be living in Europe and Russia to their "ancestral homeland"? Are we going to annex large portions of the U.S. and Canada, and hand it back to Native North Americans telling current residents to just bugger off or face a bulldozer and the barrel of a gun? No. Are we offering to seize control of a big chunk of Africa and pay passage for African Americans to go home and then send them billions every year whilst pledging military support----indefinitely? No.

So, tell me once again why propping up Israel is so important? A "stabilizing force"? Really?

Dave

[merrylander]

One word - Nunavut.

[finnbow]

But, see, that's the whole thing........750BC? Or even "250 years later", which would still be over 2,500 years ago? Have you considered how many populations have moved around since then? But, no one really cares about any of them, do they? Any major efforts to return people of Mongolian descent that may be living in Europe and Russia to their "ancestral homeland"? Are we going to annex large portions of the U.S. and Canada, and hand it back to Native North Americans telling current residents to just bugger off or face a bulldozer and the barrel of a gun? No. Are we offering to seize control of a big chunk of Africa and pay passage for African Americans to go home and then send them billions every year whilst pledging military support----indefinitely? No.

So, tell me once again why propping up Israel is so important? A "stabilizing force"? Really?

Dave

I think we should all move back to the Great Rift Valley in Kenya.;)

[Dondilion]

Whatever the reasons (Uganda was once purposed) the state of Israel is a reality notwithstanding its disputed borders. What I detest is the inability to have fearless discussions in the US re Israel.

[Zeke]

I think we need to give Tennessee, Michigan and Ohio back to the Native Americans. It is, after all their ancestral home and I'm sure they can claim some spiritual "belief" that those states belong to them. So pack up guys, you're moving. Resist and we'll brand you as terrorists and kill you.:rolleyes:

1. You catch on fast.
2. I'll take Manhattan.
3. Israel is just a big, man made, pseudo-reservation.
4. I'm a BIG fan of letting them see if they can go it alone.

They should be made to realize that their "Never Again" propaganda vitriol exists at the will and pleasure of the United States of America: and we're tired of being the big dog whilst they yap as a rabid toy from within the protective fence that we provide. :cool:

Anti-semitic? No. Behavior based? Hell yes. (When Israel ceases to create problems, there'll be a lot less.)

As it is unlikely that even a made up nation will be retroactively removed from the planet as an entity, perhaps Israelis should be ultimately convinced that what they squat upon is a gift -- not an entitlement right -- via applied political pressure to revert to less ridiculous borders.

1967 is a start...

Saddam's Iraq was a bigger stability factor than Israel has ever been.

[merrylander]

Learn summat new every day, I was not aware that we had any part in the six-day war.

[BlueStreak]

I think we should all move back to the Great Rift Valley in Kenya.;)

It is a beautiful place.

Dave

[Zeke]

Learn summat new every day, I was not aware that we had any part in the six-day war.

Other than surprise air (using Western weaponry) attacks on June 5th and taking control of the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria? :rolleyes:

That is, if you're from Israel.

If you're from Eqypt, Jordan or Syria? Well, you got shafted.

If you're the United States? We supplied M50 and M51 Shermans, M48A3 Pattons, M2/M3 Half-tracks, M50 self-propelled howitzers and Makmat 160 mm self-propelled mortars... (Well, you get the idea.)

That Israel's air force backbone is now comprised of a significant number of F-15s just means they'd be using AMERICAN planes during their next strike of aggression...

[piece-itpete]

..2. I'll take Manhattan.
...

Saddam's Iraq was a bigger stability factor than Israel has ever been.

ROTFLMAO! Good call re Manhattan.

Iraq invading Kuwait and our troops protecting the Sauds from him really stabiled things up over there.

It is a beautiful place.

Dave

PLUS! You can visit Obama's birthplace :D

The arabs did not have to leave when Israel was created. Their leaders said the Jews would kill everyone and drink their childrens blood...

as they still do.

Of course we supported Israel in 67. Ever wonder why so many MEs army uniforms look like Russias?

Pete

[merrylander]

Of course we supported Israel in 67. Ever wonder why so many MEs army uniforms look like Russias?

Pete

Most of them have so much bling they look like what you would see in a comic opera. Notice how many use the goosestep.:D

[BlueStreak]

ROTFLMAO! Good call re Manhattan.

Iraq invading Kuwait and our troops protecting the Sauds from him really stabiled things up over there.



PLUS! You can visit Obama's birthplace :D

The arabs did not have to leave when Israel was created. Their leaders said the Jews would kill everyone and drink their childrens blood...

as they still do.

Of course we supported Israel in 67. Ever wonder why so many MEs army uniforms look like Russias?

Pete

So, I take it you would have no problem being a Palestinian living in Israel? Use a little imagination on that one.

Dave

[Combwork]

Despite all the conspiracy wingnuts no Jew ever knocked down our embassies or twin towers or the Pentagon. No Jew has ever wanted to convert me, although at one time our son was dating a Jewish girl with her parents blessing.




In the U.K. Jews tolerate marriage between Jew and non Jew, but only if the non Jew converts to Judaism. Basically, they have great difficulty tolerating mixed faith marriage "you marry her but if she refuses to convert, you are no longer our son". That kind of shit.


I am still waiting to hear all those peace loving muslims condemn the actions of the jihadist terrorists. But I am not holding my breath.

Neither am I, but not that long ago Republican terrorists were trying to wreck Northern Ireland. Despite Sinn Fein being a political party 'peacefully' (?) campaigning for unity (whether the North wanted it or not) and being recognised by everyone including the U.K. as a political party, not one of their leaders ever condemned the IRA (Official, Provisional or or any other wingnut variety) for murdering anyone they did not approve of.

[BlueStreak]

In the U.K. Jews tolerate marriage between Jew and non Jew, but only if the non Jew converts to Judaism. Basically, they have great difficulty tolerating mixed faith marriage "you marry her but if she refuses to convert, you are no longer our son". That kind of shit.

That is insane. WTF?


I am still waiting to hear all those peace loving muslims condemn the actions of the jihadist terrorists. But I am not holding my breath.

Because they don't see themselves as being anything but freedom fighters. Just as anyone would, regardless of the truth.

Neither am I, but not that long ago Republican terrorists were trying to wreck Northern Ireland. Despite Sinn Fein being a political party 'peacefully' (?) campaigning for unity (whether the North wanted it or not) and being recognised by everyone including the U.K. as a political party, not one of their leaders ever condemned the IRA (Official, Provisional or or any other wingnut variety) for murdering anyone they did not approve of.

My statement about freedom fighters applies to the IRA as well.

Dave

[piece-itpete]

Blue, I understand the arab citizens of Israel have it very well.

Gaza, or Israel? Iran, or Israel?

Pete

[finnbow]

Blue, I understand the arab citizens of Israel have it very well.

Gaza, or Israel? Iran, or Israel?

Pete

Kind of a double-edged sword. They're second class citizens in Israel, but nonetheless are probably better off than Arab citizens of many other Arab nations, though not all (e.g., UAE, Morocco).

[Combwork]

My statement about freedom fighters applies to the IRA as well.

Dave
Fair enough. But how many fine upstanding gentlemen of Boston stopped to think about what they were being used for before dropping their coins into the Noraid tins. People don't look because they don't want to; they don't want to know.

They'd much rather keep their misty-eyed view of Auld Ireland (though heaven forfend they'd actually want to live there).

[merrylander]

Other than surprise air (using Western weaponry) attacks on June 5th and taking control of the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria? :rolleyes:

That is, if you're from Israel.

If you're from Eqypt, Jordan or Syria? Well, you got shafted.

If you're the United States? We supplied M50 and M51 Shermans, M48A3 Pattons, M2/M3 Half-tracks, M50 self-propelled howitzers and Makmat 160 mm self-propelled mortars... (Well, you get the idea.)

That Israel's air force backbone is now comprised of a significant number of F-15s just means they'd be using AMERICAN planes during their next strike of aggression...

So has Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc. etc. Sherman tanks? Near as I recall the Israelis are using their own version of a British tank, the Sherman (WW II?) was outgunned by everything else. That's why they claim we need the F35 because we sell all the others, we are probably the world's biggest arms dealer.

Jordan's troubles came from Syria, and as Egypt was one of the aggressors - tough shit/

[Zeke]

So has Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc. etc. Sherman tanks? Near as I recall the Israelis are using their own version of a British tank, the Sherman (WW II?) was outgunned by everything else. That's why they claim we need the F35 because we sell all the others, we are probably the world's biggest arms dealer.

Jordan's troubles came from Syria, and as Egypt was one of the aggressors - tough shit/

I thought we were discussing just the Six Day War but I, definitely, get your drift.

Of course -- now -- we're the world's biggest arms dealer.