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flacaltenn
06-10-2011, 02:44 PM
I get a really bad feeling about this.. Market is diving like crazy.. Helmets and flak jackets NOW..

It really is that every sector of the economy is hurting from legislative uncertainty. This last minute budgeting and tax policy is arrogant and irresponsible. Want to invest in energy? Nawww. How about healthcare? You NUTS? Well then maybe banking.. No thanks. GM/Chrysler? Can't it's gonna crash when the govt sells. Overpriced Tech stocks like LinkedIn? No way..

The market is where the jobs come from.. Evidently we have no rudder and we're fighting against the wind. Fergitabout $20/tankful overpricing on gas. The wealth of this country is evaporating as the debt mounts. Hope we (as a nation) have some canned peas and jerky stashed away.

Combwork
06-10-2011, 03:54 PM
I get a really bad feeling about this.. Market is diving like crazy.. Helmets and flak jackets NOW..

It really is that every sector of the economy is hurting from legislative uncertainty. This last minute budgeting and tax policy is arrogant and irresponsible. Want to invest in energy? Nawww. How about healthcare? You NUTS? Well then maybe banking.. No thanks. GM/Chrysler? Can't it's gonna crash when the govt sells. Overpriced Tech stocks like LinkedIn? No way..

The market is where the jobs come from.. Evidently we have no rudder and we're fighting against the wind. Fergitabout $20/tankful overpricing on gas. The wealth of this country is evaporating as the debt mounts. Hope we (as a nation) have some canned peas and jerky stashed away.

It's tempting to ask just how bad things are; problem is that the people who have the information keep silent while the politicians talk too much. There's always been the "we're all doomed" lobby shouting loudly about this and that; they've been crying wolf for so long that if purely by chance they get things right, no-one's going to believe them.

BlueStreak
06-10-2011, 11:37 PM
I get a really bad feeling about this.. Market is diving like crazy.. Helmets and flak jackets NOW..

It really is that every sector of the economy is hurting from legislative uncertainty. This last minute budgeting and tax policy is arrogant and irresponsible. Want to invest in energy? Nawww. How about healthcare? You NUTS? Well then maybe banking.. No thanks. GM/Chrysler? Can't it's gonna crash when the govt sells. Overpriced Tech stocks like LinkedIn? No way..

The market is where the jobs come from.. Evidently we have no rudder and we're fighting against the wind. Fergitabout $20/tankful overpricing on gas. The wealth of this country is evaporating as the debt mounts. Hope we (as a nation) have some canned peas and jerky stashed away.

People worry to much. Uncertainty? When has anything ever been "certain"?
Certainty is an empty grave, you will fill it one day. Everything else is subject to change.

Dave

whell
06-11-2011, 06:22 AM
The most troubling aspect of all of this, as is suggested by the OP, is the fact that investors and institutions continue to hold on to capital rather than invest it - either by risking their capital or loaning it (banks). Much of the waiting is because of uncertainty about what the government is going to do. When ethe free market is stifled by the actions or inactions of government, that should be illustrative of just how screwed up things have become inside the beltway.

merrylander
06-11-2011, 06:50 AM
Bullshit, most of the waiting and hanging onto the cash is simply designed to topple the current administration and get their boot licking serfs in the GOP back into power.

whell
06-11-2011, 09:16 AM
Bullshit, most of the waiting and hanging onto the cash is simply designed to topple the current administration and get their boot licking serfs in the GOP back into power.

That's a nice donkey party talk track, but the evidence just ain't there to support it. Of course, if you want talk tracks, it can also be said that the donkeys don't want to capitulate or support any budget proposals right now because painting the Repub budget proposals as extreme will be useful during the coming campaign.

In fact, there are some things that the Administration could do today if they wanted to support economic recovery. However, the lack of any useful activity from the Administration and the Senate is quite apparent.

BlueStreak
06-11-2011, 09:54 AM
That's a nice donkey party talk track, but the evidence just ain't there to support it. Of course, if you want talk tracks, it can also be said that the donkeys don't want to capitulate or support any budget proposals right now because painting the Repub budget proposals as extreme will be useful during the coming campaign.

In fact, there are some things that the Administration could do today if they wanted to support economic recovery. However, the lack of any useful activity from the Administration and the Senate is quite apparent.

I don't think anything needs to be done. I don't want the GOP interfering with the market.

Conservatives have been telling me that they don't want the government doing anything for most of my life, "The market will correct itself." Okay then, we'll just sit and wait..............................................

Someone pass the popcorn.

You know, people aren't deaf, Whell. We've been listening to conservatives bitch and whine like little kids since they lost in '06. We've heard all of drum beating about making sure Obama fails. We hear all of their bellowing about how they are the "Great Americans", and the only "True Patriots", blah, blah, blah...............Don't even try to deny it. Until they have their way nothing is going to move and you know it. The Republican Party is the party of business and it's boot-licking sycophants. And until we shove the pacifier into their whiney little pie holes, they're going to carry on like it's the end of the world because THEY aren't getting their way. "I'm a businessman! I am the center of the universe, and I demand you give me a tax cut and cheap labor!":rolleyes: That's how people behave when they think only they have all of the answers and that the Almighty himself has picked them to run the whole damn world.

Have a nice weekend.

Dave

merrylander
06-11-2011, 10:14 AM
That's a nice donkey party talk track, but the evidence just ain't there to support it. Of course, if you want talk tracks, it can also be said that the donkeys don't want to capitulate or support any budget proposals right now because painting the Repub budget proposals as extreme will be useful during the coming campaign.

In fact, there are some things that the Administration could do today if they wanted to support economic recovery. However, the lack of any useful activity from the Administration and the Senate is quite apparent.

Since the senate minority leader has publicly declared that his task is to ensure that Obama does not get a second term what else are we supposed to think. He is being paid, rather handsomely, to govern not to play silly buggers. He should at the least be fired, at best stuck in jail.

CarlV
06-11-2011, 11:31 AM
Bullshit, most of the waiting and hanging onto the cash is simply designed to topple the current administration and get their boot licking serfs in the GOP back into power.

Oh, but that is different. Just like "we have to balance the budget now!" (unless we get more tax breaks for the wealthy then that is different too) :rolleyes:


Carl

flacaltenn
06-11-2011, 12:04 PM
Has it occurred to anyone here, that it might be due to govt inattention to policy AND a huge distrust of the Pelosi-Reid express driving towards that So%ialist destination AND "something else". The something else being extremely apolitical..

SO we have the "hold the economy hostage til we fake the great People's revolution effect" and the "hissy fit - Atlas Shrugged lite effect" and what I'm calling the "Aint got a clue what the customer needs or wants anymore" effect.

They THINK what we want is to watch Hollywood movies on our 4" IPhones. They think what we want is MORE social networking.
They THINK what we want is MORE "sit in dark" GREEN shit.
They THINK what we want is ever cheaper tennis shoes and tee shirts.
They THINK what we want is CRAP for entertainment.
They THINK what we want is salicious distractions.

But what do we NEED anymore? "Aint got a f'ing clue".. I see that in the market. I see that in my trade journals. I see that in the kind of stuff that my clients and Silicon Valley are doing.

There's the obvious stuff like curing cancer and trying to make fusion power. But have we gotten to the point where we HAVE pretty much what we NEED?

I think a lot of money is on the sidelines BECAUSE it's harder to invent meaningful stuff. We're in a rut technologically. Even Moore's law is sagging.
And I can't truly tell the functional difference between and IPhone, an IPAD, an Aye-Aye and a BlackBerry. Or between Schwartznegger, Edward, Weiner or Palin..

Maybe, just maybe, that's why the class warfare. Because we just want what the other guy has now. Like a riot in a well-stocked kindergarten..

whell
06-11-2011, 12:19 PM
You know, people aren't deaf, Whell. We've been listening to conservatives bitch and whine like little kids since they lost in '06. We've heard all of drum beating about making sure Obama fails. We hear all of their bellowing about how they are the "Great Americans", and the only "True Patriots", blah, blah, blah...............Don't even try to deny it. Until they have their way nothing is going to move and you know it. The Republican Party is the party of business and it's boot-licking sycophants. And until we shove the pacifier into their whiney little pie holes, they're going to carry on like it's the end of the world because THEY aren't getting their way. "I'm a businessman! I am the center of the universe, and I demand you give me a tax cut and cheap labor!":rolleyes: That's how people behave when they think only they have all of the answers and that the Almighty himself has picked them to run the whole damn world.

Have a nice weekend.

Dave

You need more coffee, Dave.

Which activity creates wealth: entrepreneurs and "businessmen" engaging in business activity, or government engaging in regulatory and collection activity. Which do we need more of to grow the economy and create jobs?

djv8ga
06-11-2011, 12:35 PM
This should help if the Prez and the left will stay out of the way...http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/28/business/energy-environment/28shale.html?_r=1

JJIII
06-11-2011, 12:55 PM
This should help if the Prez and the left will stay out of the way...http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/28/business/energy-environment/28shale.html?_r=1

That's a great big "if"!

merrylander
06-11-2011, 01:10 PM
All the whining about too much regulation is sheer horse manuare. Do any of you honestly believe that if U.S Bigcorp is going to open a new factory that it will be in this country? China, India, even Haiti, but sure as hell not here. Strangely enough it is GM who is opening new plants, here in Maryland we are getting an electric motor manufacturing facility.

Flack to tell the difference between an iphone and an ipad it helps if you are Chinese, goog old patriot Steve Jobs has them both built by Foxconn China, you know the place where young girls jump off the 5th story in their spare time.

whell
06-11-2011, 01:11 PM
This should help if the Prez and the left will stay out of the way...http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/28/business/energy-environment/28shale.html?_r=1

The EPA won't stand for that at all. :rolleyes:

whell
06-11-2011, 01:16 PM
All the whining about too much regulation is sheer horse manuare. Do any of you honestly believe that if U.S Bigcorp is going to open a new factory that it will be in this country? China, India, even Haiti, but sure as hell not here. Strangely enough it is GM who is opening new plants, here in Maryland we are getting an electric motor manufacturing facility.

You've answered your own question here. Burdensome regulations and cost of labor will be exactly why a manufacturer might choose to locate outside the US.

merrylander
06-11-2011, 02:04 PM
You've answered your own question here. Burdensome regulations and cost of labor will be exactly why a manufacturer might choose to locate outside the US.

Purely cost of labor, the crap about burdensome regulations is exactly that - crap.:p

JJIII
06-11-2011, 02:12 PM
Purely cost of labor, the crap about burdensome regulations is exactly that - crap.:p

Kinda like..... bull$hit?

merrylander
06-11-2011, 02:36 PM
You know JJ there was a day when American businessmen had some cojones, now they are just a bunch of wusses. They sit around and moan all day while foreign companies come here and eat their lunch. The only reason they manage to survive is by heading for China and India for slave labor. Meanwhile an Indian call center moved over here because the owner said Indian wages were too high. Shows you the direction in which we are heading. Pretty soon we will have WallyWorld move back because we will be dirt cheap employees.

flacaltenn
06-11-2011, 03:25 PM
Really MerryLander??? Really JJIII?

I don't think your community would welcome a new Printed Circuit Board in your community. Do YOU? What's the sense of making IPads here if we can't open a PCBoard shop? Using this industry as an example is instructive because it is NOT highly dependent on large workforces. Most of it is automated and operators are in charge of multiple jobs at once. So DESPITE MerryLander's failure to recognize REGULATION as the cause --- It's one of the largest reason this business is GONE.

http://www.ndia.org/Divisions/Divisions/Manufacturing/Documents/119A/1%20Manufacturing%20Insecurity%20ES%20V2.pdf

Printed Circuit Boards
As the underpinning of nearly all electronics systems, printed circuit boards (PCBs) are critical technologies for numerous military applications. The PCB industry, including its two main divisions, printed circuit assembly (NAICS 334412) and bare printed circuit board manufacturing (NAICS 334418), have experienced significant losses in its domestic production capacity and position in global PCB markets over the last decade.

 The U.S. PCB industry has shrunk an estimated 74 percent since 2000.24 The number of U.S. PCB manufacturers fell from 400 in 2004, only 20 of which made military boards, to 300 by 2009. The industry’s revenues fell dramatically, from $11 billion to $4 billion between 2000-2008.

 The U.S. PCB industry once dominated global PCB production, with 42 percent of global revenues in 1984, falling to 30 percent in 1998 and to less than 8 percent in 2008.

 By 2005, between forty and fifty percent of North America’s PCB orders had migrated offshore. Between 1997- 2007, the PCB industry’s import penetration rate increased from 24 percent to 35 percent, and the PCB assembly import rate rose from 37 percent to 47 percent.27
 Parts and materials suppliers to the PCB industry—including suppliers of laminates, drillbits, imaging materials, specialty chemicals, film and capital equipment—have also largely disappeared from the United States.
While the U.S. PCB industry eroded, the PCB industries in America’s major trade competitors grew, with China the chief beneficiary. By 2003, while Japan’s top ten PCB producers dominated with 29 percent of the global market share, the United States had fallen behind China. By 2007, China/Hong Kong had moved to the top position, accounting for 28 percent of
worldwide PCB production. Today, high-volume, low-cost, PCB suppliers of components used in commercial durable goods (automobiles, appliances, heavy equipment) can provide few defense-specific components that
meet sophisticated DOD requirements. Analysts in the defense electronics community are even skeptical that the DOD’s “trusted” approach to preserve U.S. PCB supplies will be sufficient.

They view it as a stop-gap—like “putting a Band-Aid on a bullet hole.”

Meanwhile --

http://www.ipc.org/ContentPage.aspx?pageid=North-American-Competitiveness

Ensuring a Competitive Regulatory Environment in North America
IPC Suggests Congressional Oversight on Three Burdensome Regulations

On January 7, 2011, IPC sent a letter to the new chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee regarding burdensome regulations in need of Congressional oversight. The letter highlighted three regulations that have or will have a significant either impact on electronics manufacturers: the Environmental Protection Agency's (EPA's) proposed modifications to the Toxic Substances Control Act Inventory Update Reporting rule, the EPA's re-opening of the Definition of Solid Waste rule and the Security and Exchange Commission's proposed regulations on conflict minerals.
The letter was sent in response to Chairman Darrell Issa's (R-CA-49) request for IPC's assistance in identifying existing regulations that have negatively impacted job growth within our industry. Rep. Issa also invited IPC to name proposed regulations, which if finalized, would negatively impact job growth. Our letter to Chairman Issa details three regulations that will impose costly and unnecessary regulatory requirements on U.S. electronics manufacturers and therefore deserve Congressional oversight.

If you're not wondering what a "conflict mineral" is -- you shouldn't be asserting that regulation is not a problem (MerryLander).

Like I said -- NOT primarily the cost of labor. But the cost of workplace compliance, energy, facilities, taxes, and REGULATION of what can be a very dirty business. So I'm not suggesting that regulation isn't required in this instance -- Just that we've overdone it with attention to such crap as required reporting on the use of "conflict minerals".

BlueStreak
06-11-2011, 03:42 PM
I love how management now assembles teams of employees then tell US to tell them how to run the plant. They just simply demand results instead of offering any helpful input, followed by, "No, we can't afford that.", "No, we can't do that either, 'cuz then we'd have to pay someone overtime.", "Hmmmm, that's an excellent idea.....but we're not going to do it, it costs too much.", "No, that won't happen either because engineering doesn't have the time.", "Good suggestion, I'll get back with you on that.....(Then you never hear from the lounge lizard again.)", "Those things are expensive, can't we just cobble together some junk from the boneyard and make it work?"

And then, when it inevitably fails------"Looks like we're gonna have to cut labor costs."

This is our future.

They are not innovators, they are professional lounge lizards, naysayers and shirkers of responsibility. "My business went under because the whole world is out to destroy me. Damn government....and workers.....and environmentalist.....and lesbians....a,a,a,a,and crab fisherman, YEAH THEM TOO!, ...they all hate me. That why my business failed." Industry will continue to slide down the commode, because industry bosses are a bunch of lazy, cheapskate republicans who think you can make astonishing progress without spending any money and forcing, or shaming someone else into doing all of their work for them.

"Oh, the plant is running like shit? Well, what are you gonna do about it guys? We can't have that. Let me know what you come up with. Call my cell, I'll be out at home, watching the guys build my pool.":mad:

Our competitors continue to gain ground, and will continue to do so until these clowns snap out of it. Germany for example, is one of, if not the most highly regulated countries in the world. My plant is filling up with German made machinery because it's the best and Italians don't like to waste time struggling with cheap American made junk. They've told us so.

Oh, I know. I just violated the sacred "American Exceptionalism" the sanctimonious right likes to blather on about. Sorry, but I don't care. Their way of doing things isn't going to work anymore. The world has moved on without them as they daydreamed about The Gipper and Howdy Doody.

Dave

JJIII
06-11-2011, 03:51 PM
Purely cost of labor, the crap about burdensome regulations is exactly that - crap.:p

I don't think it is purely cost of labor. I think the "crap" has a lot to do with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2FT4FprxDg

JJIII
06-11-2011, 03:53 PM
Kinda like..... bull$hit?

Sarcasm was lost in translation.:rolleyes:

JJIII
06-11-2011, 03:55 PM
You know JJ there was a day when American businessmen had some cojones, now they are just a bunch of wusses. They sit around and moan all day while foreign companies come here and eat their lunch. The only reason they manage to survive is by heading for China and India for slave labor. Meanwhile an Indian call center moved over here because the owner said Indian wages were too high. Shows you the direction in which we are heading. Pretty soon we will have WallyWorld move back because we will be dirt cheap employees.

You may be onto something here. I hate to admit it though.:o

BlueStreak
06-11-2011, 03:58 PM
You need more coffee, Dave.

Which activity creates wealth: entrepreneurs and "businessmen" engaging in business activity, or government engaging in regulatory and collection activity. Which do we need more of to grow the economy and create jobs?

See my last post post. Less of that, is what we need. We need less excuse makers. We need less doomsday politicians running their mouths, scaring the hell out of people. We need more business managers actually doing their jobs, and less of them playing the victim and crying like little punks is what we need.

Dave

BlueStreak
06-11-2011, 04:01 PM
We need less "entrepeneurs" spending their days bullshitting around on internet boards during work hours..........................like this one, for example.:rolleyes:

Where are you guys, when your on here, half the time?

Answer that one.

Dave

flacaltenn
06-11-2011, 04:04 PM
JJIII:

I don't think it is purely cost of labor. I think the "crap" has a lot to do with it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2FT4FprxDg


Nice jackets.. GREAT Guitars.. But that's stranger than your Aye-Aye.. I don't get the relevence. Oh Wait..

"I'm just a sole whose intentions are good> Please Lord don't let me be misunderstood"

It's a mea culpa for voting lefty isn't it --- JJ?

JJIII
06-11-2011, 04:10 PM
JJIII:



Nice jackets.. GREAT Guitars.. But that's stranger than your Aye-Aye.. I don't get the relevence. Oh Wait..

"I'm just a sole whose intentions are good> Please Lord don't let me be misunderstood"

It's a mea culpa for voting lefty isn't it --- JJ?

Never voted "left" in my life.:D It was all just a jab at Rob. Us older guys need to poke each other once in a while..... just to stir the blood.:)

whell
06-11-2011, 04:27 PM
We need less "entrepeneurs" spending their days bullshitting around on internet boards during work hours..........................like this one, for example.:rolleyes:

Where are you guys, when your on here, half the time?

Answer that one.

Dave

It's...um....Saturday.

flacaltenn
06-11-2011, 04:43 PM
You're Absolutely right again Dave:

We need less "entrepeneurs" spending their days bullshitting around on internet boards during work hours..........................like this one, for example.

Where are you guys, when your on here, half the time?

Answer that one.



Where AM I half the time? In the shower inventing crap...

http://www.politicalchat.org/picture.php?albumid=2&pictureid=8

SHEEEEZZZZ

http://www.politicalchat.org/picture.php?albumid=2&pictureid=7

bhunter
06-11-2011, 06:57 PM
I get a really bad feeling about this.. Market is diving like crazy.. Helmets and flak jackets NOW..

It really is that every sector of the economy is hurting from legislative uncertainty. This last minute budgeting and tax policy is arrogant and irresponsible. Want to invest in energy? Nawww. How about healthcare? You NUTS? Well then maybe banking.. No thanks. GM/Chrysler? Can't it's gonna crash when the govt sells. Overpriced Tech stocks like LinkedIn? No way..


Here in San Diego, the malaise resonates throughout the once bustling area. Traffic has been noticeably less than pre-2009. The business people, that I talk to, are significantly down in sales and desperately trying to keep their employees. Small businesses that can operate out of a home office have done so. Of course, our cost of living has also significantly increased. A single bedroom apartment with, say, 800 square feet rents for $1100-1500 a month. No one wants to spend with the exception of the government, but that can't continue forever. IMO, you are quite correct in the assertion that the Obama Adminiistration and Congress have caused the malaise by their policies that engendered the uncertainty throughout, not only our economic system, but also, the international community. Sadly, I have no faith in the current leadership's abiltity to change course.

BlueStreak
06-11-2011, 08:01 PM
You know JJ there was a day when American businessmen had some cojones, now they are just a bunch of wusses. They sit around and moan all day while foreign companies come here and eat their lunch. The only reason they manage to survive is by heading for China and India for slave labor. Meanwhile an Indian call center moved over here because the owner said Indian wages were too high. Shows you the direction in which we are heading. Pretty soon we will have WallyWorld move back because we will be dirt cheap employees.

Precisely.

Dave

BlueStreak
06-11-2011, 08:03 PM
It's...um....Saturday.

During the week?

The only time you see me here is during non-work hours. I NEVER have time when I'm at work.

Dave

BlueStreak
06-11-2011, 08:09 PM
Here in San Diego, the malaise resonates throughout the once bustling area. Traffic has been noticeably less than pre-2009. The business people, that I talk to, are significantly down in sales and desperately trying to keep their employees. Small businesses that can operate out of a home office have done so. Of course, our cost of living has also significantly increased. A single bedroom apartment with, say, 800 square feet rents for $1100-1500 a month. No one wants to spend with the exception of the government, but that can't continue forever. IMO, you are quite correct in the assertion that the Obama Adminiistration and Congress have caused the malaise by their policies that engendered the uncertainty throughout, not only our economic system, but also, the international community. Sadly, I have no faith in the current leadership's abiltity to change course.

Ooooo, I'm so uncertain...... Oooo, the scary black man is frightening me...
I just can't deal with it, it's tooooo haaaaaard! Mommy, I want my mommy! The mean Liberals are kicking my pansy ass again......I'm scared......

Pussies.:p

Dave

whell
06-11-2011, 08:57 PM
During the week?

The only time you see me here is during non-work hours. I NEVER have time when I'm at work.

Dave

Well, since I work from home and have a bit of flex in my schedule, our situations may be a bit different.

whell
06-11-2011, 08:59 PM
Ooooo, I'm so uncertain...... Oooo, the scary black man is frightening me...
I just can't deal with it, it's tooooo haaaaaard! Mommy, I want my mommy! The mean Liberals are kicking my pansy ass again......I'm scared......

Pussies.:p

Dave

Some on this forum do have some interesting misconceptions about how the world operates.

flacaltenn
06-11-2011, 09:21 PM
Dave:

If you're not just a little bit scared right now by the circus in media while Rome burns and the Stock Market melts, and manufacturing disappears, and people get desperate for jobs and means of support --- then maybe you have a little too much faith in Wash D.C. to restore all those things.

When it comes right down to it -- there's increasingly LITTLE a Prez can do to fix those things. But there's a much larger list of things he can do to make it worse. It's the army of bureaucrats and the Tax Cheat Treas secretary, and the mystery men at the Fed, that are spinning the wheels in the ditch and getting stuck up to the frame.

Especially bad is that you CAN'T lower taxes any more (yes I a libertarian said that), and you can't play with interest rates (because that bird has flown) and very soon, even with the debt ceiling kicked higher, you won't be able to find buyers for the debt we're generating by the trainload.

I'm telling ya Dave, I'm sure your Dad told you a lot about the Depression. We may get to have the same character building experience in the next 2 years or so... The next major crisis to hit is the state pensions. THEY are underfunded to tune of about $2Trill. So when THEY ask for bailouts and are refused, you're very likely to see them start dumping stocks and mutuals to stay solvent. THAT'S the next crash on Wall Street if the economy doesn't pick up and float them thru the crisis caused by states STEALING out of "trust funds".. Hasn't been a govt trust fund in my lifetime that wasn't totally EMPTIED and wasted by the govt. And I'm afraid we're gonna pay for that soon...

flacaltenn
06-11-2011, 09:28 PM
Sorry to be a bummer guys.. I don't drink much, but tonight I'll have to get the step ladder out and see what's up in the liquor locker.. It's old so it ought to be good..

BlueStreak
06-11-2011, 10:21 PM
I have no faith in anyone, anymore, beyond family, Flac. And some of them are kinda shaky.

Least of all your beloved Wall Street pirates.
I believe they would stand idly by and watch us all starve to death before they would lift a finger. Until there's a buck in it for them, of course.

And, Oh, yes he did.

Here's one for ya.

He and his brothers once had to fight a railroad yard Bull.

Why?

Because it was January and they lived in St. Louis, Minnesota just west of
Duluth. It was a particularly brutal winter. The wood they cut in the fall was gone and any they cut anew wouldn't be seasoned soon enough. So, after they had burned all of the furniture, they took pillowcases and jumped the fence at the local steel plant. Started filling up the pillow cases with coal from the trains. A "Bull" caught them. Lucky for them there were three of them and one of him. 'Cuz when he whacked my Uncle Harold in the head with his nightstick, they jumped him and beat his ass, then ran. They were teenagers.

Nice, Huh?

It kills me that I know people who can't conceive of it getting that bad.

My other Uncle, Robert, died in 1992 at 76. His Sister, her husband and my cousins searched his property...........for money. In the toilet tank, in the walls, under the carpet, in jars buried in the yard and in the flower beds in his greenhouse, (He was a florist. Retired Navy and ironically, he had retired as a maintenance supervisor from that same steel plant.) they found almost $300,000 in cash. He had no bank accounts, and no investments.

One quote I recall from him;
"Bankers don't get rich by throwing money around. They get rich by keeping it. And they'll never get any of mine."

These are the things I know about the "Great Depression". The way the folks that survived it didn't trust Wall Street, or banks, "....any farther than you can throw them."

Keep on trusting "Bankers" and the "Corporate World". You think any of those "Masters of the Universe" will be around to ladle out the soup when the shit hits the fan? Nope, they just send the Sheriff around to toss you out on your ass when you stop paying your bills.

That's what I learned from the elders in my family.

It's just as foolish as trusting the government. Actually, nowadays, I'd surmise the two are becoming one and the same. They have us by the nuts, and they feel they have been far too permissive with us.

Dave

BlueStreak
06-11-2011, 10:48 PM
Some on this forum do have some interesting misconceptions about how the world operates.

You sure do.

Dave

BlueStreak
06-11-2011, 11:30 PM
".....where is the feast we were promised?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hfS9Ck8FnA

Dave

hillbilly
06-12-2011, 02:19 AM
I have no faith in anyone, anymore, beyond family, Flac. And some of them are kinda shaky.

Least of all your beloved Wall Street pirates.
I believe they would stand idly by and watch us all starve to death before they would lift a finger. Until there's a buck in it for them, of course.

And, Oh, yes he did.

Here's one for ya.

He and his brothers once had to fight a railroad yard Bull.

Why?

Because it was January and they lived in St. Louis, Minnesota just west of
Duluth. It was a particularly brutal winter. The wood they cut in the fall was gone and any they cut anew wouldn't be seasoned soon enough. So, after they had burned all of the furniture, they took pillowcases and jumped the fence at the local steel plant. Started filling up the pillow cases with coal from the trains. A "Bull" caught them. Lucky for them there were three of them and one of him. 'Cuz when he whacked my Uncle Harold in the head with his nightstick, they jumped him and beat his ass, then ran. They were teenagers.

Nice, Huh?

It kills me that I know people who can't conceive of it getting that bad.

My other Uncle, Robert, died in 1992 at 76. His Sister, her husband and my cousins searched his property...........for money. In the toilet tank, in the walls, under the carpet, in jars buried in the yard and in the flower beds in his greenhouse, (He was a florist. Retired Navy and ironically, he had retired as a maintenance supervisor from that same steel plant.) they found almost $300,000 in cash. He had no bank accounts, and no investments.

One quote I recall from him;
"Bankers don't get rich by throwing money around. They get rich by keeping it. And they'll never get any of mine."

These are the things I know about the "Great Depression". The way the folks that survived it didn't trust Wall Street, or banks, "....any farther than you can throw them."

Keep on trusting "Bankers" and the "Corporate World". You think any of those "Masters of the Universe" will be around to ladle out the soup when the shit hits the fan? Nope, they just send the Sheriff around to toss you out on your ass when you stop paying your bills.

That's what I learned from the elders in my family.

It's just as foolish as trusting the government. Actually, nowadays, I'd surmise the two are becoming one and the same. They have us by the nuts, and they feel they have been far too permissive with us.

Dave


Dave, I'd like to ask something about burried money. I know some old timers that have no saving or checking. They keep their worth private in cash not only to keep from losing a dime if things go belly-up, but also a small town bank can't spread gossip around town about how much or how little they have saved. Hardly anything is kept secret in a small town.

But here's what I'm wondering. I've heard stores of people having a wad of cash taken by police ( it's assumed to be drug money automaticly until you can prove you saved it, or withdrew it from savings, etc ). It seems as though it's slowly becoming a crime to keep your savings personal, and out of a bank.

More and more places are forcing their workers to use direct deposit, and a paycheck is not an option. Ok, what happens when cold hard cash is done away with ( no more printed money ) and all your worth is in a bank, and then we have a crash in a plastic world? Who will still be wining and dining while many starve? Honestly, I've often wondered how our childrens future will play out ... or possibly even our own future.

whell
06-12-2011, 07:02 AM
C'mon guys. A market correction is all this is, and is not unusual after a couple months of quick gains like we've recently had. I think a bit of perspective is in order.

That said, we do have our share of economic issues. They are correctable. But the doom and gloom stuff has about as much credibility with me as Chariots of the Gods.

finnbow
06-12-2011, 08:29 AM
C'mon guys. A market correction is all this is, and is not unusual after a couple months of quick gains like we've recently had. I think a bit of perspective is in order.

That said, we do have our share of economic issues. They are correctable. But the doom and gloom stuff has about as much credibility with me as Chariots of the Gods.

+1. When I start hearing despair like this, I buy. Conversely, I sell on "irrational exuberance".

merrylander
06-12-2011, 08:37 AM
I was born at home, in December of 1930, if you want to know about the Great Depression, just ask.

But having a Father who worked hard, and a Mother who stretched every dollar to the maximum we survived it quite well. But that was a different era where people were curteous and kinder. We moved to a small town that my uncle and another man started when I was just three. Like most small towns everyone knew everyone else and pretty much knew their business. The thing that is forgotten is that when someone was hurting we were all there to help. People mocked Hillary when she said it takes a village but you had to live in one to know. As a child you behaved yourself because if you messed up your parents would know about it before you even got home.

Now people have no social graces, get on an airplane and watch. Normally civil people walk down the ramp and emerge at the door of the aircraft as neanderthals. Drive our highways for an object lesson if you will. A friend sent me some pictures of the devastation in Joplin. Rescuers found a dog in a flattened house and put him in their SUV. Then they found another and put her in the SUV, the dogs bonded instantly. They found two more dogs and it was the same story and finally a cat that the dogs accepted instantly. Animals behave better than people, something we see daily with our five feral cats.

My referance to aircraft travel made me think of a letter in today's WaPo, the writer was bitching about aid to Amtrak, completely forgetting about the subsidies to airlines and trucking companies. Please name the airline that built its own airport, or the trucking company that built its own higways. Having travelled from Glenwood, MD, to Glenwood Springs, CO on Amtrak we have concluded that it is the one remaining civilized mode of travel. People are nicer, the food was fabulous, and you see this beautiful land in a manner that is impossible from 30,000 feet. We even got mooned by three teens just outside Omaha, NB:D

I am able to post here any time of day because I am retired with a pension from an honest Canadian company that will not declare bankruptcy so they can get some judge to absolve then of their promised pension. No my friends it is a far far different world than the one I grew up in and except for my beloved wife and beautiful granddaughters I would not regret leaving it.

merrylander
06-12-2011, 10:33 AM
Some interesting statistics on the economy. Michael Spence, author of The Next Convergence looked at which American companies created jobs at home from 1990 to 2008, a period of exreme globalization. The companies that did business in global markets, including manufacturers, banks, exporters, energy firms and financial services contributed almost nothing to overall American job growth. in fact from 2000 to 2007 we saw the weakest period of job creation since the Great Depression.

Firms that did contribute were ones that operated mainly in the U.S., healthcare companies, government agencies, retailers, hotels but these are all low paying jobs. So much for free trade.

BlueStreak
06-12-2011, 10:44 AM
C'mon guys. A market correction is all this is, and is not unusual after a couple months of quick gains like we've recently had. I think a bit of perspective is in order.

That said, we do have our share of economic issues. They are correctable. But the doom and gloom stuff has about as much credibility with me as Chariots of the Gods.

Agreed.

So once your stinking party stops spreading the doom and gloom predictions around as thick as they possibly can, the economy might recover? I tend to believe so.

"Vote GOP or you'll end up eating you pets!"

Such BS. I believe the country would survive if they disappeared altogether.

Because I have faith in America.:p:)

Dave

BlueStreak
06-12-2011, 10:55 AM
Dave, I'd like to ask something about burried money. I know some old timers that have no saving or checking. They keep their worth private in cash not only to keep from losing a dime if things go belly-up, but also a small town bank can't spread gossip around town about how much or how little they have saved. Hardly anything is kept secret in a small town.

But here's what I'm wondering. I've heard stores of people having a wad of cash taken by police ( it's assumed to be drug money automaticly until you can prove you saved it, or withdrew it from savings, etc ). It seems as though it's slowly becoming a crime to keep your savings personal, and out of a bank.

More and more places are forcing their workers to use direct deposit, and a paycheck is not an option. Ok, what happens when cold hard cash is done away with ( no more printed money ) and all your worth is in a bank, and then we have a crash in a plastic world? Who will still be wining and dining while many starve? Honestly, I've often wondered how our childrens future will play out ... or possibly even our own future.

I've been wondering the same thing myself. Actually, what I've been wondering is this;

If we go "paperless", what replaces the paper? And what sort of "fees" will be attached to using it? Because you know who ever ends up administering the cards, be it the government, and/or private banks, they are going to claim "Administrative costs" and charge you for using it, over and above existing sales taxes/interest rates of course. (Let's see, what are the interest rates on those cards in your wallet already? Somewhere around 20%?).

It's just another way of fleecing the public, Hillbilly. You're exactly right about that.

However, if it is private banks that do the fleecing, I suppose we'll be told that that's just fine...........

Dave

whell
06-12-2011, 10:57 AM
Some interesting statistics on the economy. Michael Spence, author of The Next Convergence looked at which American companies created jobs at home from 1990 to 2008, a period of exreme globalization. The companies that did business in global markets, including manufacturers, banks, exporters, energy firms and financial services contributed almost nothing to overall American job growth. in fact from 2000 to 2007 we saw the weakest period of job creation since the Great Depression.

Firms that did contribute were ones that operated mainly in the U.S., healthcare companies, government agencies, retailers, hotels but these are all low paying jobs. So much for free trade.

2000 - 2007 is a period that included the midst of the dot com bubble burst, the WTC attack and subsequent strain on the finance and insurance markets, Enron/Worldcom/Tyco, a recession, and the financial market meltdown that tightened credit and the availability of capital, and an expansion of government spending that also sucked capital out of the market.

Conversely, it also saw the rise of Asian economies, particularly China, and a modest growth of Western European economies. This all by itself likely explains the divergent results. But, I'd be curious what the author suggests is the reason for the disparity.

BlueStreak
06-12-2011, 11:00 AM
Speaking of Pops. On the main rig as I type;

"String of Pearls", Glenn Miller.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg2vtWezWbw

Enjoy,

Dave

whell
06-12-2011, 11:04 AM
I've been wondering the same thing myself. Actually, what I've been wondering is this;

If we go "paperless", what replaces the paper? And what sort of "fees" will be attached to using it? Because you know who ever ends up administering the cards, be it the government, and/or private banks, they are going to claim "Administrative costs"....
Dave

The replacement it is the Automated Clearing House (ACH) system. This is the same system that is used today to transfer funds between banks and / or financial institutions. While there may be fees charged by institutions or payroll processing companies to transfer funds via ACH, it's much cheaper to process ACH transfers of, for example, payroll, than it is to administer a paper paycheck process.

BlueStreak
06-12-2011, 11:05 AM
The replacement it is the Automated Clearing House (ACH) system. This is the same system that is used today to transfer funds between banks and / or financial institutions. While there may be fees charged by institutions or payroll processing companies to transfer funds via ACH, it's much cheaper to process ACH transfers of, for example, payroll, than it is to administer a paper paycheck process.

How so? My employer does direct deposit, (Which I like, BTW.), but then sends me a paper statement.

Dave

flacaltenn
06-12-2011, 11:32 AM
MerryLander:

in fact from 2000 to 2007 we saw the weakest period of job creation since the Great Depression.

Firms that did contribute were ones that operated mainly in the U.S., healthcare companies, government agencies, retailers, hotels but these are all low paying jobs. So much for free trade.

Why pick just THAT period. 1/2 of the jobs created LAST MONTH were due to McDonalds!!! Literally!!

American jobs and economy is not coming back until we venture into NEW BOLD and INNOVATIVE territory. The capitalist pigs you hate are not all hoarders. There are enough of them to take the risks and set new goals.. They're just waiting to see if there's a country left to do it in. Don't waste your breath blaming Bush or Obama.. Your gonna need it..

And I don't really get this blaming of the banks and Wall Street. I'm invested, and I don't feel screwed by ANY of the companies I'm dealing with. If I did -- I'd leave. Am I a moron?

YES -- I have to go into a branch every six months and threaten to drag my stash somewhere else. Then I get the "platinum" treatment for awhile and do it again. THEY ARE constantly trying to ratchet up their income. And YES, many of the banks HAD no IDEA who actually held the mortgage attached to the title of the house they were forclosing on. That sucks. And YES, some funds I have are gonna take 0.587% of everything I make on that fund, but the government is gonna take 15% or more. Which is my bigger problem eh?

All the bailouts and who they went to and what they were used for is all OUTSIDE the free market and politically connected. NAME NAMES!!.. I want to know the guilty. Don't just tell me it's the brokers or fund managers. The fact that banks are sitting on govt investments rather than loaning money is FEDERAL FISCAL policy...

On the topic of hoarding -- we have friends who were going thru their parents place during the estate proceedings and found 20 S. African Kuggerands ($30,000 kiddies) sewn into the bottom of the curtains that they were just about to throw out. If our friend Janet wasn't curious about why the weights were that heavy, nature would have gotten some of her treasure back..

HillBilly:

There is the risk of being accused of drug involvement in hoarding large sums of cash. Never give it up without a warrant and talk to a lawyer about recording your private savings. EVEN IF you are acquitted of all crimes, your "stuff" can be tied up in asset forfeiture proceedings for YEARS. Just another govt "War on (the People) Drugs" bipartisian breach of liberty...

d-ray657
06-12-2011, 12:28 PM
Speaking of Pops. On the main rig as I type;

"String of Pearls", Glenn Miller.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg2vtWezWbw

Enjoy,

Dave

Dave, you are an ear-tease. :rolleyes: You're sitting there listening to a tune on your vinyl rig, in all it's glory, and you link us to a compressed you tube vid over puny computer speakers.

Actually, thanks to the local library, I have been listening to Jaco Pastorius, Squirrel Nut Zippers, and Art Blakey this morning. All the while I'm trying to convince myself to read a two inch thick file to decide whether to take on a case that could either right the ship at the firm, or cause us to take on more water. I tend to think that it will be worth the risk. (How's that for a segue back on point:cool:)

Regards,

D-Ray

BlueStreak
06-12-2011, 02:27 PM
"American jobs and economy is not coming back until we venture into NEW BOLD and INNOVATIVE territory. The capitalist pigs you hate are not all hoarders. There are enough of them to take the risks and set new goals.. They're just waiting to see if there's a country left to do it in. Don't waste your breath blaming Bush or Obama.. Your gonna need it.."

There won't be a country unless they start taking risks and setting new goals. If they are so "bold", then what is stopping them? Fear? Oh, I know, "uncertainty". Same difference.

Fortuna Favet Fortibus, my friend.

Dave

BlueStreak
06-12-2011, 02:35 PM
Oh, and BTW. My comment about "Germany, as an example...." wasn't to say that heavy regulation drives an economy by any means. I was merely pointing out that some seem to be able to overcome it and prosper despite it. (Hence my insulting comments about "lounge-lizards" and "excuse makers".)

So, what are we waiting for?

Dave

(P.s. I don't hate greedy capitalist pigs, I am a greedy capitalist pig. That's why I have such contempt for them. I know what they're thinking, because I'm one of them. Now, go invent something. But let me know what it is first, so I know where to put my money.:p)

BlueStreak
06-12-2011, 02:43 PM
Dave, you are an ear-tease. :rolleyes: You're sitting there listening to a tune on your vinyl rig, in all it's glory, and you link us to a compressed you tube vid over puny computer speakers.

Actually, thanks to the local library, I have been listening to Jaco Pastorius, Squirrel Nut Zippers, and Art Blakey this morning. All the while I'm trying to convince myself to read a two inch thick file to decide whether to take on a case that could either right the ship at the firm, or cause us to take on more water. I tend to think that it will be worth the risk. (How's that for a segue back on point:cool:)

Regards,

D-Ray

I would make a video, but the microphone in my camera sucks even worse than the youtube videos. And, I am sufficiently lacking in computer skills to know how to input the stereo to the PC.

Love Jaco Pastorius, BTW.

"Two inch thick file..."? It wasn't written by Barney Frank, was it?:p

Dave

whell
06-12-2011, 03:44 PM
How so? My employer does direct deposit, (Which I like, BTW.), but then sends me a paper statement.

Dave

Your employer likely uses a service to process payroll and file payroll taxes. The payroll service can either cut a live pay check, or direct deposit the funds. If your paycheck is direct deposited, then the payroll service electronically debits the employer's account for the net amount of your check. The funds travel via the ACH system from your employer's bank to your bank. Your bank then deposits the funds into your account. The payroll service then produces the pay stub as a record of the payroll transaction.

Many employers are now opting, where allowed by the state, to "turn off" the pay stub and simply create a record of pay history that employees can access via the web. Or, the payroll funds are deposited on an ATM debit card - for which the employee receives a monthly statement. This is great for employees who either don't have a bank account, don't want their wives to see how much they really make (yes, still a lot of those types out there) or would rather not transact with a bank.

BlueStreak
06-12-2011, 04:00 PM
Oh, okay, Thanks. I always wondered why they still sent the stub through snail-mail, rather than just do it online in a printable format. As large as the company is, I would think that would save them a lot of money in the long run. Even those who still don't have a PC at home could download and print it at work if they wanted to.

Dave

whell
06-12-2011, 05:56 PM
Oh, okay, Thanks. I always wondered why they still sent the stub through snail-mail, rather than just do it online in a printable format. As large as the company is, I would think that would save them a lot of money in the long run. Even those who still don't have a PC at home could download and print it at work if they wanted to.

Dave

Some states allow suppression of the pay stub. Some do not. It may be your state requires that the stub be issued.

whell
06-13-2011, 06:37 AM
Purely cost of labor, the crap about burdensome regulations is exactly that - crap.:p

Read this - it will link you to a WSJ article - and tell me if you still think that concerns about burdensome regulations are still overblown.

http://houstonnews.gulfcoastrising.com/2011/06/13/america-needs-the-shale-revolution/

And this is just one slice of the pie of regulations that industry faces. I could write a treatise on the stupidity of some of the things that are regulated / enforced by the Dept of Labor, and how it impacts employers.

noonereal
06-13-2011, 07:14 AM
Read this - it will link you to a WSJ article - and tell me if you still think that concerns about burdensome regulations are still overblown.

http://houstonnews.gulfcoastrising.com/2011/06/13/america-needs-the-shale-revolution/

And this is just one slice of the pie of regulations that industry faces. I could write a treatise on the stupidity of some of the things that are regulated / enforced by the Dept of Labor, and how it impacts employers.

to bad we can't trust private industry to put society first, they should pay an extra tax to pay for all the regulations we have to impose to keep them from victimizing society.

merrylander
06-13-2011, 07:52 AM
Read this - it will link you to a WSJ article - and tell me if you still think that concerns about burdensome regulations are still overblown.

http://houstonnews.gulfcoastrising.com/2011/06/13/america-needs-the-shale-revolution/

And this is just one slice of the pie of regulations that industry faces. I could write a treatise on the stupidity of some of the things that are regulated / enforced by the Dept of Labor, and how it impacts employers.

For the sake of your three children I would avoid most plastic containers in fact Canada has banned plastic baby bottles because of the chemicals they release. As noone noted many regulations have come about simply because industry does not always do the necessary research into the long term effects of the chemicals they use.

Sure WallyWorld and others are have stuff made in Chiina because of cheap labor and little or no regulation. Well I sure would not use baby formula from China,, or any other foodstuff. If they are willing to poison their own children I do not imagine they care much about ours. The FDA budget has been cut so badly that another e-coli outbreak is due any day.:rolleyes:

whell
06-13-2011, 08:33 AM
For the sake of your three children I would avoid most plastic containers in fact Canada has banned plastic baby bottles because of the chemicals they release. As noone noted many regulations have come about simply because industry does not always do the necessary research into the long term effects of the chemicals they use.

Sure WallyWorld and others are have stuff made in Chiina because of cheap labor and little or no regulation. Well I sure would not use baby formula from China,, or any other foodstuff. If they are willing to poison their own children I do not imagine they care much about ours. The FDA budget has been cut so badly that another e-coli outbreak is due any day.:rolleyes:

We use plastic containers regularly. We don't heat food in them, but there has yet to be a credible study that supports a "ban".

BlueStreak
06-13-2011, 10:21 AM
to bad we can't trust private industry to put society first, they should pay an extra tax to pay for all the regulations we have to impose to keep them from victimizing society.

+1.

Dave

BlueStreak
06-13-2011, 10:22 AM
For the sake of your three children I would avoid most plastic containers in fact Canada has banned plastic baby bottles because of the chemicals they release. As noone noted many regulations have come about simply because industry does not always do the necessary research into the long term effects of the chemicals they use.

Sure WallyWorld and others are have stuff made in Chiina because of cheap labor and little or no regulation. Well I sure would not use baby formula from China,, or any other foodstuff. If they are willing to poison their own children I do not imagine they care much about ours. The FDA budget has been cut so badly that another e-coli outbreak is due any day.:rolleyes:

+1.

Dave

BlueStreak
06-13-2011, 10:42 AM
We use plastic containers regularly. We don't heat food in them, but there has yet to be a credible study that supports a "ban".

For short term storage, use of plastic containers should be fine. But, you are correct to be concerned about heating food in them. Most plastic food containers are made of PET or HDPE, both of which have fairly low softening temps and can begin to out-gas (Release chemical gases.) at temps easily reached in a typical microwave oven. I've never seen a "study" confirming this, it is just my personal belief. I NEVER reheat in plastic. I always transfer to something made of metal, ceramic, glass, etc. prior to reheating. The Canadians are probably worried about chemicals being released from the plastic bottles as warmed milk is placed, or heated, in the baby bottles. I would think that as long as it is just "warm" as in say 100 degrees, and not much higher it should be okay, however.

I worked in plastics processing for 12 years, so I do know a little bit.

Dave

merrylander
06-13-2011, 10:55 AM
We use plastic containers regularly. We don't heat food in them, but there has yet to be a credible study that supports a "ban".

Try this;

http://www.google.com/search?q=bisphenol+a&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7ADRA_en&prmd=ivnsu&source=univ&tbm=nws&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=Ri_2TaPlB82v0AH8x5zrDA&ved=0CIQBEKgC

whell
06-13-2011, 11:25 AM
Try this;

http://www.google.com/search?q=bisphenol+a&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7ADRA_en&prmd=ivnsu&source=univ&tbm=nws&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=Ri_2TaPlB82v0AH8x5zrDA&ved=0CIQBEKgC

Thanks - it supports my point:

http://pubs.acs.org/cen/coverstory/89/8923cover2.html

"Last fall, FDA’s counterpart in Europe announced that it too had concerns about BPA safety. But in its review of some 800 research studies on BPA published since 2007, the European Food Safety Authority found no new evidence to justify lowering its tolerable daily intake value of 50 μg/kg/day, which is the same as the U.S. level.

The European Commission, which had charged the agency with evaluating BPA safety, subsequently invoked the precautionary principle and banned BPA in baby bottles. China recently did the same."

In other words, there's no "scientific consensus" (the low threshold that is currently being used to invoke all manner of mischief in the name of controlling "global warming"), but we're going to ban it anyway.

piece-itpete
06-13-2011, 12:26 PM
Reading this thread from the start, I see the left is still making an all-out attempt at corning the market in civility in political discourse :p

You lefties know that a coupla countries have tried killing all the businessmen and installing heros of the working man in their stead.

It didn't work out how they expected.

Some on this forum do have some interesting misconceptions about how the world operates.

I know you were serious but it is ABSOLUTELY KILLING ME! :D

....Honestly, I've often wondered how our childrens future will play out ... or possibly even our own future.

The government hates cash. They can't control it.

Perhaps the mark of the beast is actually a chip in your arm that functions as your bank account.

Pete

merrylander
06-13-2011, 12:30 PM
Thanks - it supports my point:

http://pubs.acs.org/cen/coverstory/89/8923cover2.html

"Last fall, FDA’s counterpart in Europe announced that it too had concerns about BPA safety. But in its review of some 800 research studies on BPA published since 2007, the European Food Safety Authority found no new evidence to justify lowering its tolerable daily intake value of 50 μg/kg/day, which is the same as the U.S. level.

The European Commission, which had charged the agency with evaluating BPA safety, subsequently invoked the precautionary principle and banned BPA in baby bottles. China recently did the same."

In other words, there's no "scientific consensus" (the low threshold that is currently being used to invoke all manner of mischief in the name of controlling "global warming"), but we're going to ban it anyway.


So you are quite content to ingest a whole bunch of chemicals whose long term effects are as yet unknown simply because it makes some plastic manufacturers lives simpler.:rolleyes:

BlueStreak
06-13-2011, 12:37 PM
"....kill all of the businessmen...", Pete? Has anyone here suggested that?

"The government hates cash. They can't control it.".---And banks can't charge any interest or fees on cash buried in the yard or in your kids piggy bank either. They don't want you having it either, they want you to spend it all then borrow more from them....How much is the interest on your credit cards? Come on, Man. The government isn't the only culprit in this scheme.

Dave

hillbilly
06-13-2011, 12:53 PM
"....kill all of the businessmen...", Pete? Has anyone here suggested that?

"The government hates cash. They can't control it.".---And banks can't charge any interest or fees on cash buried in the yard or in your kids piggy bank either. They don't want you having it either, they want you to spend it all then borrow more from them....How much is the interest on your credit cards? Come on, Man. The government isn't the only culprit in this scheme.

Dave


Quite a few people here barter. A feller up the holler from me has this real-low-to-the-ground 4x4 custom tractor that is 9 feet wide. Sometimes I take on his mechanic needs, in ruturn for bush-hogging on steep ground. I'm going to build me a contraption like his in a few years when the last house payment is made. Til then, all I can do is drool over his. :cool:

piece-itpete
06-13-2011, 12:58 PM
Kill was for emphasis (though lord knows it happened), in theory the businessmen in China were only sent to work on farms ;)

Of course government is in bed with big business. But they're the only player with force of law.

Pete

flacaltenn
06-13-2011, 01:22 PM
Pete:

You lefties know that a coupla countries have tried killing all the businessmen and installing heros of the working man in their stead.


I actually saved a political forum thread from when Mugabe took power in ZimBabwe.. The leftists on the board were just fawning over this guy. Colonialism had died, the white man was on the run, and all was well with the world. Yesterday, I saw a Zimbabwean youth, about 10 years old with two armfuls full of Mugabe Cash. He was able to buy a couple ounces of beans with it. I just wish I knew where those so@ialist blowhards are today so I could send the link to that video..

Gaspode
06-13-2011, 01:57 PM
Sad, Zimbabwe used to be the breadbasket of Africa.

merrylander
06-13-2011, 03:21 PM
Sad, Zimbabwe used to be the breadbasket of Africa.

You mean Rhodesia used to be the bread basket of Africa. All of my friends and acquaintances knew Mugabe was a murdering dictator, anyone who thought otherwise must have only had half a brain.:p

flacaltenn
06-13-2011, 04:30 PM
Roger 1/2 a brain - MerryLander:

I told you they were soc@ialists! :D

noonereal
06-13-2011, 07:10 PM
Reading this thread from the start, I see the left is still making an all-out attempt at corning the market in civility in political discourse :p



so you want to go back to unbridled capitalism?

Maybe refresh yourself with the plihgt of the working man AND CHILD oh say about circa 1900.

whell
06-13-2011, 07:19 PM
So you are quite content to ingest a whole bunch of chemicals whose long term effects are as yet unknown simply because it makes some plastic manufacturers lives simpler.:rolleyes:

Yup, until there's evidence that there's a problem, why assume there is one. Way too many "health scares" have turned out to be so much hot air.

whell
06-13-2011, 07:22 PM
so you want to go back to unbridled capitalism?

Maybe refresh yourself with the plihgt of the working man AND CHILD oh say about circa 1900.

Right, because the working conditions are so much better in workers paradise countries like China...:rolleyes:

noonereal
06-13-2011, 07:22 PM
Yup, until there's evidence that there's a problem, why assume there is one. Way too many "health scares" have turned out to be so much hot air.

BS. I take good health very seriously.

Had H1N1 been deadly we would have lost millions. We were totally unable to stop the spread in spite of a very clear understanding of the threat. Why? Commerce.

noonereal
06-13-2011, 07:24 PM
Right, because the working conditions are so much better in workers paradise countries like China...:rolleyes:

you are the one advocating a return to Chinese type labor conditions whelly

JJIII
06-13-2011, 08:28 PM
The victims are getting as thick as fleas around here.:)

whell
06-13-2011, 09:01 PM
you are the one advocating a return to Chinese type labor conditions whelly

Precisely which post did I advocate this, nooney?

whell
06-13-2011, 09:02 PM
BS. I take good health very seriously.

Had H1N1 been deadly we would have lost millions. We were totally unable to stop the spread in spite of a very clear understanding of the threat. Why? Commerce.

Why? Because it was not the threat that it was made out to be?

noonereal
06-13-2011, 09:29 PM
Why? Because it was not the threat that it was made out to be?

Whell, do you have any clue how contagious it was? No you don't. If it had been as lethal as it could have been millions would have been dead just here in the US. Honest Whell, your posts in these regards are ridiculous.

What you should be pissed at was that we did not seal the boarders. In other words we did not respond responsibly. The very oposite of what you believe.


Read about the 1918-19 flu. While you do, keep in mind how small the world is now and that it would spread hence affect more people as a % of the population than it did then, and at a lightening pace.

flacaltenn
06-13-2011, 11:27 PM
See this is what happens in a recording studio when the board op has epilepsy and the time code generator hasn't been turned on.. Bad track synchronization..

piece-itpete
06-14-2011, 09:46 AM
so you want to go back to unbridled capitalism?

Maybe refresh yourself with the plihgt of the working man AND CHILD oh say about circa 1900.

Never happen. And monopolies are NOT unbridled capitalism.

Yup, until there's evidence that there's a problem, why assume there is one. Way too many "health scares" have turned out to be so much hot air.

You should hear my dad talk about Dioxin for example :)

But the real problem with the next black plague, even if it isn't fatal, is that if too many people get sick the distribution system breaks down. Food, gas....

It's serious.

The victims are getting as thick as fleas around here.:)

LMAO! I'm a victim of a tyrannical government and a crazy desire to argue politics :D

Pete

whell
06-14-2011, 09:51 AM
Whell, do you have any clue how contagious it was? No you don't. If it had been as lethal as it could have been millions would have been dead just here in the US. Honest Whell, your posts in these regards are ridiculous.

What you should be pissed at was that we did not seal the boarders. In other words we did not respond responsibly. The very oposite of what you believe.


Read about the 1918-19 flu. While you do keep in mind how small the world is now and that it would spread hence affect more people as a % of the population than it did then, and at a lightening pace.

You keep referring to the turn of the century. Are you stuck there? Do you honestly believe that the socio-economic conditions that existed in this country back then could be recreated in this country today? Including the circumstances that supported the propagation of flu epidemics? It's quite a different world today, even setting aside the activist government that evolved over the last 100 years.

flacaltenn
06-14-2011, 10:42 AM
So now I can't rely on FEMA, INS, CDC, OSG, HHS and HomeLand Security to keep me safe from flu? Not enough MONEY between all those agencies?

You mean I've got to hire a private flu squad? Gee, I'm paying twice for a lot of stuff.
Gonna have to start trimming a little here and there. Starting in D.C.

BlueStreak
06-14-2011, 12:42 PM
The victims are getting as thick as fleas around here.:)

As thick as those victims who claim to be victimized by "Welfare Queens", all things Obama, The Democratic Party, unions, "Enviro-Nazis", "Femi-Nazis" and the whole laundry list of things that just make it "impossible" for the poor babies to succeed?:rolleyes:

Dave

noonereal
06-14-2011, 12:53 PM
So now I can't rely on FEMA, INS, CDC, OSG, HHS and HomeLand Security to keep me safe from flu? Not enough MONEY between all those agencies?

You mean I've got to hire a private flu squad? Gee, I'm paying twice for a lot of stuff.
Gonna have to start trimming a little here and there. Starting in D.C.

The CDC is the agency responsible for keeping us safe from a deadly flu outbreak but they would not have if the H1N1 was deadly. Why? Too much money at stake so they were not allowed to secure transmission of the virus.

I don't have any clue why you list so many agencies in your response nor what your response means besides the fact that you seem to not understand what a deadly flu that is ultra contagious as was H1N1 can do.

This is strange coming from someone who is scared shitless without his gun.

Seems your thinking/fear is a bit primal and leaves you exposed so many other ways. Go figure.

piece-itpete
06-14-2011, 12:56 PM
[NOTICE: this response will be posted as soon as a government lackey gets around to reviewing it for their version of accuracy. This new system is designed to increase efficiency. Thank you.]

JonL
06-14-2011, 02:18 PM
You keep referring to the turn of the century. Are you stuck there? Do you honestly believe that the socio-economic conditions that existed in this country back then could be recreated in this country today? Including the circumstances that supported the propagation of flu epidemics? It's quite a different world today, even setting aside the activist government that evolved over the last 100 years.

First the general: Do you honestly believe that human nature has changed over the last 100 or even 1000 years? Do you honestly believe that the horrors man has inflicted upon his own kind throughout history "cannot" happen anymore for some magical reason? I remember being shocked to see the genocide that unfolded in Serbia recently. I remember seeing people on TV, dressed in modern Western clothes, in modern middle class surroundings... and it was so incongruous that people who didn't look or live much differently from myself could be the victims AND perpetrators of such horrors. It opened my eyes. It made me realize how important a broad, inclusive community and society is, and how dangerous people can become when their xenophobic tendencies are exploited.

Now the specific: Could there be a return to the terrible exploitation of workers and children right here in this country? Absolutely. Leave capitalism to it's unfettered devices and it'll happen in no time at all.

As for infectious disease epidemics, conditions today are probably more favorable for an epidemic than they were in 1918. There wasn't air travel in 1918 to spread germs around the country and the world nearly instantaneously. I doubt there was as much dense mass transit in the cities. I doubt that very many women were in the workplace where they can be exposed more easily.

flacaltenn
06-14-2011, 04:45 PM
The CDC is the agency responsible for keeping us safe from a deadly flu outbreak but they would not have if the H1N1 was deadly. Why? Too much money at stake so they were not allowed to secure transmission of the virus.

I don't have any clue why you list so many agencies in your response nor what your response means besides the fact that you seem to not understand what a deadly flu that is ultra contagious as was H1N1 can do.

This is strange coming from someone who is scared shitless without his gun.

Seems your thinking/fear is a bit primal and leaves you exposed so many other ways. Go figure.

NoOneReal:

Frankly pal, sometimes I wonder if you're playing with a helmet.. Look, I try to play fair. I try to be nice, but you just pushed a couple buttons here.. I'm telling you -- the niceness could just disappear...

Do you know who the OSG is? The freaking Surgeon General? Do we pay him to respond to health issues?

Who would actually CLOSE the borders (like you proposed to do)? Wouldn't that be Homeland Security and ICE (or INS)?

Tell me that FEMA would not be called to respond to a HUGE mortal disease outbreak?

And who is HHS NoOne.. What do they do?

I stand by the statement.

So now I can't rely on FEMA, INS, CDC, OSG, HHS and HomeLand Security to keep me safe from flu? Not enough MONEY between all those agencies?

And I'm not gonna go off on you here. But I sure wish you'd contribute more than snipes and feelings..

flacaltenn
06-14-2011, 04:47 PM
Dave:

I would so love to get victimized by a Femi-Nazi right now...

whell
06-14-2011, 05:33 PM
First the general: Do you honestly believe that human nature has changed over the last 100 or even 1000 years? Do you honestly believe that the horrors man has inflicted upon his own kind throughout history "cannot" happen anymore for some magical reason? I remember being shocked to see the genocide that unfolded in Serbia recently. I remember seeing people on TV, dressed in modern Western clothes, in modern middle class surroundings... and it was so incongruous that people who didn't look or live much differently from myself could be the victims AND perpetrators of such horrors. It opened my eyes. It made me realize how important a broad, inclusive community and society is, and how dangerous people can become when their xenophobic tendencies are exploited.

Now the specific: Could there be a return to the terrible exploitation of workers and children right here in this country? Absolutely. Leave capitalism to it's unfettered devices and it'll happen in no time at all.

Capitalism in this country cannot be left to its "unfettered devices", or anything even remotely close to it, without someone on the left getting riled. Hell, we can't even support our own energy needs, the life blood of capitalism - fettered or unfettered - without some lefty group getting their nickers in a knot.

JonL
06-14-2011, 05:54 PM
Capitalism in this country cannot be left to its "unfettered devices", or anything even remotely close to it, without someone on the left getting riled. Hell, we can't even support our own energy needs, the life blood of capitalism - fettered or unfettered - without some lefty group getting their nickers in a knot.

You're welcome. I guess "my kind" saved you from working in the strip mines without an expensive respirator when you were 8.

Seriously, do you think it's a good idea to simply allow people to chase profits with no regard for things that happen outside of their immediate financial view? It's absurd on the face of it. I don't even need to give you examples of the harm that would come.

flacaltenn
06-14-2011, 06:27 PM
JonL:

Who do want responsible for elevator disasters? the MANUFACTURER or the city inspector? Don't give me shit about everything going to hell if there isn't one GOVT inspector for every private enterprise. You KNOW there are consequences to business FAR BEYOND the accountability we can EEK from the regulators when things go shitty.

Those guys get a bigger budget and promotions when people die. The company gets sued, devalued and put out of business.

JonL
06-14-2011, 07:34 PM
There you go again, Flacaltenn, making up some words, pretending I said them, and then getting all irate about them. Until you start making sense, I've got nothing to say.

flacaltenn
06-14-2011, 08:36 PM
Yeah, JonL, ((SEE NEXT POST FIRST))

I guess when you said Seriously, do you think it's a good idea to simply allow people to chase profits with no regard for things that happen outside of their immediate financial view? It's absurd on the face of it. I don't even need to give you examples of the harm that would come.

I guess that bleak vision of "unfettered Capitalism" should never have been attacked by me.. But I asked a question STILL unanswered..

Who do U want responsible for elevator disasters? the MANUFACTURER or the city inspector? Don't give me shit about everything going to hell if there isn't one GOVT inspector for every private enterprise. You KNOW there are consequences to business FAR BEYOND the accountability we can EEK from the regulators when things go shitty.

Those guys get a bigger budget and promotions when people die. The company gets sued, devalued and put out of business.

Which just points out that even WITH ZERO GOVT intervention, regulation, taxation or oversight -- the free market has many significant checks and balances including

1) Public Relations
2) Customer Satisfaction
3) Legal challenges due to harm bodily or otherwise
4) Competition
5) Contract law for products and services.

So JonL -- make any sense in THAT context?
I know it's hard to swing into seeing an opponent point of view. But you simply cannot assert that to "allow people to chase profits with no regard for things that happen outside of their immediate financial view?" -- represents the reality of our free market system EVEN ABSENT govt involvement.

flacaltenn
06-14-2011, 08:42 PM
Hey JonL:

I know what happened here. I was responding to your words in Whell's post #98. The link goes back to your post at #95. But those words are no longer there. But back at #95 we find:

Leave capitalism to it's unfettered devices and it'll happen in no time at all.


A mere ember of that mighty statist assertion.. LOL...

Normally on a political board -- this is where the flaming starts.. But not with you (or me). I'm a PROLIFIC editor and would rather have it right than fast. REALIZE that I was responding directly to your (now deleted) quote.

I'll apologize if you go first. :D

whell
06-14-2011, 09:05 PM
You're welcome. I guess "my kind" saved you from working in the strip mines without an expensive respirator when you were 8.

Seriously, do you think it's a good idea to simply allow people to chase profits with no regard for things that happen outside of their immediate financial view? It's absurd on the face of it. I don't even need to give you examples of the harm that would come.

Why? Did you prevent me from immigrating to China and being deprived of a respirator? Yes, I do think it's a good thing to chase profits. In fact, I recommend it as a way to grow the economy. Just think of all taxes that it might generate, and you'll get excited too.

JonL
06-14-2011, 09:20 PM
I never deleted anything.

I never even HINTED at anything as absurd as "one GOVT inspector for every private enterprise."

I understand all the purist, theoretical arguments for libertarianism. That's not a world I want to live in. I don't want to live in a world where an elevator manufacturer makes a cost-benefit analysis about the safety of his products. Maybe he'd start selling defective elevators to low-income housing units, knowing that the residents can't afford a lawyer, and even if they sue for wrongful death, a jury may say "well, that 50 year old guy only earned $24,000/year, so we'll award the family $500,000." The elevator maker might take those odds. Just one (bad) example that popped into my head.

I don't believe that government workers are rewarded when people die, nor do I believe that all companies that make egregiously defective items go out of business. Certainly their owners and managers are often free to go on to start other businesses that might also make defective products.

My statement about unfettered capitalism referred to the fact that horrendous working conditions and child labor existed 100 or so years ago, and reflected my belief that given the same opportunities to do so, businesses (not all, maybe only a few at first) would revert to that same inhumane behavior. Hell, they'd have a freakin' FIDUCIARY RESPONSIBILITY to do so, in the absence of regulations... wouldn't they? Stockholders don't hold MORALITY over PROFITS, do they? I don't think so. I think a CEO could get into deep trouble if he decided to forgo profits just because he didn't think it was right to go after them. Anyway, it's quite a stretch to call me a "statist" because I believe in sensible regulation.

And finally, I absolutely can and do "assert that to 'allow people to chase profits with no regard for things that happen outside of their immediate financial view?' -- represents the reality of our free market system EVEN ABSENT govt involvement." That, my friend, IS the libertarian ideal. Do whatever you want until someone makes it financially less attractive to do so.

JonL
06-14-2011, 09:24 PM
Why? Did you prevent me from immigrating to China and being deprived of a respirator? Yes, I do think it's a good thing to chase profits. In fact, I recommend it as a way to grow the economy. Just think of all taxes that it might generate, and you'll get excited too.

Go to China! Please! Seriously, China's got SERIOUS problems. Don't try to hold them up as a model for what I believe in, because it AIN'T.

But, I do agree... I also "think it's a good thing to chase profits." But not with a disregard for things that happen outside of the immediate financial view.

flacaltenn
06-14-2011, 10:10 PM
JonL:

I stripped that quote from Whell's post at #98. The words are no longer there OR in your original at #95.. Didn't make them up. You can retract them if you want to.. Despite the last rant that it's all about profits, I'm sticking to:

Which just points out that even WITH ZERO GOVT intervention, regulation, taxation or oversight -- the free market has many significant checks and balances including

1) Public Relations
2) Customer Satisfaction
3) Legal challenges due to harm bodily or otherwise
4) Competition
5) Contract law for products and services.

MANY other considerations in the board room, the conference room and water cooler OTHER THAN profits. Profits are not chased ""with a disregard for things that happen outside of the immediate financial view"" without first considering the 5 fundamental checks above. (Could be more, I'm not an expert).

An elevator manufacturer that routinely kills low-income people is no more immune from market pressures than one that kills Park Avenue residents. And in that case, HOW DO YOU excuse the failure of

1) The govt agency who accepted and bought those low-income elevators.
2) The city inspector whose name appeared in the deadly elevator.
3) The warnings from the competitors who tried to tell you not to go with the lowest bidder or insist on a "minority owned enterprise" because they might kill people.

What motivates all THOSE PEOPLE to be moral and competent? What's their incentive to remove all risk from the equation.. That's my point JonL. I've given you SEVERAL solid motivations beyond profit for the mean greedy capitalist. You give ME a couple for all of these equalizers you value so highly. Do they have a job after the bodies are pulled from wreckage?

A SINGLE accident is not neccessarily a failure of design. Could be a fluke. Could be misuse. Could be maintenance. Your blanket assumption that this stuff happens SOLELY because of GREEDY manufacturers, is a little too convienient. And not just for elevators.

JonL
06-14-2011, 10:47 PM
JonL:

I stripped that quote from Whell's post at #98. The words are no longer there OR in your original at #95.. Didn't make them up. You can retract them if you want to.. Despite the last rant that it's all about profits, I'm sticking to:



MANY other considerations in the board room, the conference room and water cooler OTHER THAN profits. Profits are not chased ""with a disregard for things that happen outside of the immediate financial view"" without first considering the 5 fundamental checks above. (Could be more, I'm not an expert).

An elevator manufacturer that routinely kills low-income people is no more immune from market pressures than one that kills Park Avenue residents. And in that case, HOW DO YOU excuse the failure of

1) The govt agency who accepted and bought those low-income elevators.
2) The city inspector whose name appeared in the deadly elevator.
3) The warnings from the competitors who tried to tell you not to go with the lowest bidder or insist on a "minority owned enterprise" because they might kill people.

What motivates all THOSE PEOPLE to be moral and competent? What's their incentive to remove all risk from the equation.. That's my point JonL. I've given you SEVERAL solid motivations beyond profit for the mean greedy capitalist. You give ME a couple for all of these equalizers you value so highly. Do they have a job after the bodies are pulled from wreckage?

A SINGLE accident is not neccessarily a failure of design. Could be a fluke. Could be misuse. Could be maintenance. Your blanket assumption that this stuff happens SOLELY because of GREEDY manufacturers, is a little too convienient. And not just for elevators.

Oh boy. Here we go again. What part of what I wrote said that accidents happen SOLELY because of GREEDY manufacturers? My point, and it's happened time and again, is that companies will take short cuts on safety to make more money. Not every company, but some. Maybe even most. The most callous of them will actually do a cost-benefit analysis and accept a certain risk of death and dismemberment and figure what the lawsuits and insurance premiums will mean to the bottom line. If you don't believe this is true, you'd better grow up fast.

My admittedly bad example of the elevators was a demonstration of what would happen in YOUR world where there is little to no government oversight. In my example of YOUR world, the low income housing was privately built an owned and the builder bought the cheapest elevator he could find. Maybe the owner is a legal resident of Bermuda and isn't afraid of being sued. Maybe the elevator company is in China. It's your world. There is no gov't agency that accepted and bought the elevators. There is no city inspector. As for your list of five fundamental checks, tell me... which ones are not directly related to maximizing profits (or cost avoidance, really the same thing)?

d-ray657
06-14-2011, 11:06 PM
JonL:

I stripped that quote from Whell's post at #98. The words are no longer there OR in your original at #95.. Didn't make them up. You can retract them if you want to.. Despite the last rant that it's all about profits, I'm sticking to:



MANY other considerations in the board room, the conference room and water cooler OTHER THAN profits. Profits are not chased ""with a disregard for things that happen outside of the immediate financial view"" without first considering the 5 fundamental checks above. (Could be more, I'm not an expert).

An elevator manufacturer that routinely kills low-income people is no more immune from market pressures than one that kills Park Avenue residents. And in that case, HOW DO YOU excuse the failure of

1) The govt agency who accepted and bought those low-income elevators.
2) The city inspector whose name appeared in the deadly elevator.
3) The warnings from the competitors who tried to tell you not to go with the lowest bidder or insist on a "minority owned enterprise" because they might kill people.

What motivates all THOSE PEOPLE to be moral and competent? What's their incentive to remove all risk from the equation.. That's my point JonL. I've given you SEVERAL solid motivations beyond profit for the mean greedy capitalist. You give ME a couple for all of these equalizers you value so highly. Do they have a job after the bodies are pulled from wreckage?

A SINGLE accident is not neccessarily a failure of design. Could be a fluke. Could be misuse. Could be maintenance. Your blanket assumption that this stuff happens SOLELY because of GREEDY manufacturers, is a little too convienient. And not just for elevators.

First, the housecleaning. Post 95 does not indicate that it has been edited, and you cannot edit a post here without the software indicating that a post has been edited. Therefore, there was no deletion (unless there was some space between the lines from which one could read such things:rolleyes:)

Which just points out that even WITH ZERO GOVT intervention, regulation, taxation or oversight -- the free market has many significant checks and balances including

1) Public Relations
2) Customer Satisfaction
3) Legal challenges due to harm bodily or otherwise
4) Competition
5) Contract law for products and services.

1) Corporations spend big bucks disseminating the message that they want the public to hear. When there is an accident, everyone gets involved in the game of blaming someone else - and the company can afford better PR people than the elevator inspector.

2) The customer might be happy with the cheapest elevators, but the public using them has no control over that decision.

3) One of the things high on the Chamber of Commerce's wish list is "tort reform" limiting the amount of damages that a person could recover, no matter how bad the injury no how egregious the misconduct. In terms of market forces, the potential for large awards is what attracts lawyers to represent clients who otherwise could not afford them. Put a limit on tort damages, and those lower on the economic totem pole are less likely to obtain competent counsel.

4) Safety ain't cheap. Sometimes environmentally sound policies come with a price tag as well. Those who are willing to cut corners on safety and pollution are going to have a competitive advantage over those who are conscientious about safety. In a marketplace where survival of the fittest is the rule, and where and expensive conscience is a weakness, companies who provide more safety, when the competitors are not required to do so, are less likely to survive. Regulatory requirements of essential safety measures level the playing field for those companies who insist on doing the right thing.

5) Contractual law is only going to protect those in privity of contract. The contract will not protect innocent bystanders. Moreover, if one party to a contract realizes that the cost of litigation will make it cost ineffective for the other party to enforce its full rights under a contract. I've seen this way too many times. The party with the greater financial resources will screw someone out of five or ten thousand dollars because it's expensive to take the steps to recover that money.

The market is not necessarily immoral - it is amoral. Nevertheless, what the market values does not necessarily reflect the values that provide the best place for most people to live.

Your and others have referred many times to China as an example of what you believe the left wants. To the contrary, China reflects the worst of capitalism. They invite business to operate without regard to environmental impact or the health and welfare of the workers. That attitude is attractive to businesses for whom the bottom line is the only concern, which is why we have seen so much manufacturing move there. What we with a leftward tilt advocate here is a system where we can balance the bottom line motivation with such concerns as safety, honest representation of products, fair competition and a cleaner environment.

Regards,

D-Ray

BlueStreak
06-14-2011, 11:47 PM
Good grief what insanity.....................

Dave

piece-itpete
06-15-2011, 08:41 AM
Cost/benefit is the only real workable way to approach safety....

Pete

JonL
06-15-2011, 10:16 AM
Cost/benefit is the only real workable way to approach safety....

Pete

Which is precisely why we need a backstop of regulation, inspection, and enforcement.

A company's cost/benefit analysis may not align with society's cost/benefit analysis, especially when the risks are off in the future (carcinogens, environmental toxins), or affect predominantly those with little power (children, the poor, elderly, etc.)

I don't buy the libertarian argument that market forces will keep things in check. Maybe after a few dozen people are killed, or there's a rash of birth defects in 2nd generation offspring of users of a product (look up DES and pregnancy)... better to be proactive, IMO.

piece-itpete
06-15-2011, 10:32 AM
Airlines operate that way. If the cost of lawsuits exceed the cost of a change or upgrade for their planes, they'll do it, otherwise no.

I'm not anti-regulation, but anti-unclear blanket regs. They just lead to tinpot dictatorships at the enforcement level imo, and no one, even the folks that wrote them, don't really know what they say. Hard to plan as a business.

Pete

JonL
06-15-2011, 11:10 AM
C'mon, airlines and aircraft manufacture and maintenance are some of the most tightly regulated businesses out there! The reason air travel is so safe isn't because of lawsuits, it's because of very tight regulation. One could further make the argument that because of the safety that regulation provides across the board, the public is largely happy to fly and that's good for business. If the business was less regulated (and therefore IMO less safe), there would be less air travel and the business would suffer.

I hear all this anti-regulation rhetoric, but I'd like to see some examples of regulations that no one understands that makes it hard for businesses to plan. I'm sure there are some, but really-- how big a problem to you think it really is? Examples, please.

merrylander
06-15-2011, 11:22 AM
Cost/benefit is the only real workable way to approach safety....

Pete

So tell me, what are you worth alive vs dead?:rolleyes:

merrylander
06-15-2011, 11:27 AM
I trust that the posters who keep referring to the "free market" realize that it has never been free, but has always been manipulated.

d-ray657
06-15-2011, 11:36 AM
I trust that the posters who keep referring to the "free market" realize that it has never been free, but has always been manipulated.

To tell you the truth, Rob, the ability of the big companies to manipulate the market, as well as the government, is the only thing that ever gives me a reason to think about a major shrinkage in government. However it's never been enough to convince me that watered-down restrictions on corporate power are better than no regulation at all.

Regards,

D-Ray

piece-itpete
06-15-2011, 11:38 AM
My company is in insulation. I'm a little bit familiar with old asbestos sellers/users - good luck selling a company that has ANYTHING to do with that at any time....

My statement regarding Airlines is true, at least according to iirc Frontline.

Rob, I really believe as a society we need that discussion. Regardless we do put prices on life, otherwise cars would be so expensive we couldn't own them.

Pete

JonL
06-15-2011, 12:00 PM
My company is in insulation. I'm a little bit familiar with old asbestos sellers/users - good luck selling a company that has ANYTHING to do with that at any time....


Isn't that really an example of what happens with lawsuits and not regulation? There was no regulation on asbestos back in the day, even though the big asbestos companies knew full well of the hazards. Asbestos was used everywhere because the risk of lawsuits from asbestosis was far off in the future. That day has come, and the companies that were involved at the time may be suffering now, but the individual stockholders and executives back then most likely profited handsomely and enjoyed all their days being wealthy and healthy (unlike the miners). If there had been reasonable regulation on asbestos at the time, the problems you've alluded to (but haven't really described) wouldn't exist.

piece-itpete
06-15-2011, 12:18 PM
The problem with asbestos is, it's a miracle mineral. It's simply amazing what you can do with it.

Too bad it's also horrible. They're still selling it in the third world :(

You are kinda correct though, not really regulation. So, ever do your own taxes?

Pete

flacaltenn
06-15-2011, 12:21 PM
JonL:

My point, and it's happened time and again, is that companies will take short cuts on safety to make more money. Not every company, but some. Maybe even most. The most callous of them will actually do a cost-benefit analysis and accept a certain risk of death and dismemberment and figure what the lawsuits and insurance premiums will mean to the bottom line. If you don't believe this is true, you'd better grow up fast.


I think Pete had the right reaction to this. It's everyday science and fact of life that risks are evaluated this way and NOT just by industry in regards to consumer/worker protection..

Right now today, I'm mitigating my risk of having my palacial Tenn estate wiped out by a tornado watch. It's a calculated risk that 10s of MILLIONs take. But a more pertainent example would be water.

There is no such CONSUMER commodity as pure water. PURE water only exists in industry and laboratories. (Costs about $20/gallon, and I've drank some) Risks are evaluated based on science and established for acceptable containmination. Most consumers get their water FROM GOVT. The GOVT establishes mins for content and testing procedures. Do you think that there's a muni water system that tests DAILY for coliform bacteria? That's a contaminent that could kill immune depressed people as it did in Milwaukee a decade or so back. Why don't they? Because there is no incentive to. They meet the standard. Their customers in fact are CAPTIVE. In the free market, regulations on water content actually RESTRAIN producers from offering choice of even purer water because their competitors can claim the same govt approved purity level in labeling. It's like the meaningless label of "GOVT APPROVED" organic.

So what you THINK is just an overdriving fixation on profit -- is not really that. It's an argument (often made political) over what are "acceptable risks" -- as in the case of muni water. Arsenic in minute amounts is essential to life. So go from there in defining "water purity".

I HAVE grown up. And I've learned to evaluate risks (like tornados/earthquakes/sun exposure on my own. And I believe that most people are capable of doing the same. They just might not care. Not ALL of need a nanny. But some of them need a spankin'.

whell
06-15-2011, 12:26 PM
So tell me, what are you worth alive vs dead?:rolleyes:

Depends on who you ask! :D

JonL
06-15-2011, 12:33 PM
And my response to Pete recognized that risk-benefit analyses are done all the time, and should be done all the time, AND that a backstop of effective regulation is necessary to assure that society's needs are met even when they are contrary to a corporation's cost/benefit analysis. I don't know why that's so hard for you to accept.

Regarding your water example, perhaps you haven't noticed the popularity of bottled water? Many people buy it because they feel it is more pure or more healthy than municipal tap water. I don't see how the regulations that assure a minimum level of safety of municipal water supplies have gotten in the way of that.

I don't understand this statement: "Right now today, I'm mitigating my risk of having my palacial Tenn estate wiped out by a tornado watch. It's a calculated risk that 10s of MILLIONs take." What does that mean?

merrylander
06-15-2011, 12:36 PM
My company is in insulation. I'm a little bit familiar with old asbestos sellers/users - good luck selling a company that has ANYTHING to do with that at any time....

My statement regarding Airlines is true, at least according to iirc Frontline.

Rob, I really believe as a society we need that discussion. Regardless we do put prices on life, otherwise cars would be so expensive we couldn't own them.

Pete

Most of the time with cars it is the nut behind the wheel that fails.:p

merrylander
06-15-2011, 12:40 PM
Our water comes from 300 feet down under our front lawn, a bit acid but we have a gadget that neutralizes it, county test lab says it is potable.

piece-itpete
06-15-2011, 12:45 PM
Most of the time with cars it is the nut behind the wheel that fails.:p

LOL! Did I ever learn it when I got my moped, and later motorcycle. People are idiots.

Pete

hillbilly
06-15-2011, 01:19 PM
We're taking on more than water at the moment. There's a good bit of hail droppin' out of the sky too. Sounds lovely on tin. :D

flacaltenn
06-15-2011, 01:46 PM
JonL:

Regarding asbestos -- one of the largest users of the crap was the military. Thousands of claims from shipyard workers and refitters. Where did the govt get the balls to cash in on such "future liability"? Was it PROFIT MOTIVE? And I don't remember you actually answering my question of what motivates all these altruistic govt watchdogs to be moral and diligient. That's an important part of the discussion.

When your biggest motivating factors are finding the lowest bidder and counting up how many women and minorities are in the vendors workforce, or whether your product contains "conflict minerals" a political term that most people have to look up -- can govt POSSIBLY be making safer and sounder decisions than corporate directors?

flacaltenn
06-15-2011, 02:11 PM
;)D-Ray:

Several new prospectives there.

1) Corporations spend big bucks disseminating the message that they want the public to hear. When there is an accident, everyone gets involved in the game of blaming someone else - and the company can afford better PR people than the elevator inspector. The elevator inspector's office gets a bigger budget and maybe legal immunity. Companies can certainly TRY to recover from drilling bad holes in the ocean, that's why I'm against restricting their "speech". But in a LOT of cases, the WHOLE INDUSTRY suffers because of the actions of one. That's why they have an incentive to define standards on an INDUSTRY WIDE basis. Which is a surrogate for regulation and often much more efficient.

2) The customer might be happy with the cheapest elevators, but the public using them has no control over that decision.True. You haven't known fear until you check into a Paris Hotel and see the 80 yr old 4sqft elevator that they expect you to use. ;)

3) One of the things high on the Chamber of Commerce's wish list is "tort reform" limiting the amount of damages that a person could recover, no matter how bad the injury no how egregious the misconduct. In terms of market forces, the potential for large awards is what attracts lawyers to represent clients who otherwise could not afford them. Put a limit on tort damages, and those lower on the economic totem pole are less likely to obtain competent counsel. I don't know of anyone calling for limiting ACTUAL damages (including lawyer fees). What we want to cap is the discretionary outrageously punitive "other" payments in excess of damages. If lawyers want to serve as speculative vigilantes, they can survive on their wages.

4) Safety ain't cheap. Sometimes environmentally sound policies come with a price tag as well. Those who are willing to cut corners on safety and pollution are going to have a competitive advantage over those who are conscientious about safety. In a marketplace where survival of the fittest is the rule, and where and expensive conscience is a weakness, companies who provide more safety, when the competitors are not required to do so, are less likely to survive. Regulatory requirements of essential safety measures level the playing field for those companies who insist on doing the right thing. If cutting corners on safety and pollution was all the rage, we wouldn't be bombarded with all this GD GREEN crap advertising. Buy SunChips because we open the windows on hot days instead of using air conditioning. And based on my last trip to the store, being GREEN is profitable. I don't need the SAFEST chain saw on the market. (I mean the model that comes with a safety helmet and a jockstrap, because I'm not an idiot. People can calculate their OWN risk adversion factor and weigh the consequences. YOU HAVE CHOICES. (Whereas the goal of most statists is to make conforming everything.) Sometimes these risk factors collide. Such as in driving a SmartCar. You're trading your life for one degree Centigrade in the enviroment. I say allow those tradeoffs.

5) Contractual law is only going to protect those in privity of contract. The contract will not protect innocent bystanders. Moreover, if one party to a contract realizes that the cost of litigation will make it cost ineffective for the other party to enforce its full rights under a contract. I've seen this way too many times. The party with the greater financial resources will screw someone out of five or ten thousand dollars because it's expensive to take the steps to recover that money. Certainly you know that contractual law's contribution to this is to track the liability. Things spelled out in contract that can be used to ascribe % of responsibility for any legal action that occurs. EVEN to an innocent bystander. Like laptop batteries exploding because the vendor to the computer company skipped a specified testing step.

The market is not necessarily immoral - it is amoral. Nevertheless, what the market values does not necessarily reflect the values that provide the best place for most people to live.

Your and others have referred many times to China as an example of what you believe the left wants. To the contrary, China reflects the worst of capitalism. They invite business to operate without regard to environmental impact or the health and welfare of the workers. That attitude is attractive to businesses for whom the bottom line is the only concern, which is why we have seen so much manufacturing move there. What we with a leftward tilt advocate here is a system where we can balance the bottom line motivation with such concerns as safety, honest representation of products, fair competition and a cleaner environment

I've certainly never claimed that the left wants a Chinese economy. I don't ANYONE is really jealous of their "efficiency" or track record. It sucks. But they are making progress sooo quickly, that efficiency or track record doesn't matter to their society AT THE MOMENT. It WILL in their future. And they will change.

flacaltenn
06-15-2011, 02:35 PM
And my response to Pete recognized that risk-benefit analyses are done all the time, and should be done all the time, AND that a backstop of effective regulation is necessary to assure that society's needs are met even when they are contrary to a corporation's cost/benefit analysis. I don't know why that's so hard for you to accept.

Regarding your water example, perhaps you haven't noticed the popularity of bottled water? Many people buy it because they feel it is more pure or more healthy than municipal tap water. I don't see how the regulations that assure a minimum level of safety of municipal water supplies have gotten in the way of that.

I don't understand this statement: "Right now today, I'm mitigating my risk of having my palacial Tenn estate wiped out by a tornado watch. It's a calculated risk that 10s of MILLIONs take." What does that mean?

Well JonL -- when I moved to Tennessee from California, I did a relative risk assessment (earthquakes VERSUS tornadoes), and a cost/benefit analysis. It's part of life. Today, we're under weather warnings (as HillBilly gets pounded by hail -- I have to hope he's not got a $1M solar panel on his tin roof :D) so I've got my (govt regulated) weather radio going off with alerts. (that's the mitigation part) May lose the house, but maybe the family and pets will survive. These choices that people make on their own are FAR MORE consequential than percentage of skin in "white meat turkey" as regulated by the FEDs. In fact, that addresses your 2nd question of how regulation "gets in the way" of offering products that are BETTER than the minimum standards. We could do water, but I'm fond of turkey.

You can use the label "WHITE MEAT TURKEY" on your product if you meet the MINIMUM standard. Surprisingly (or not) that allows a considerable amount of junk in the "WHITE MEAT TURKEY". What incentive do I have as a deli slice producer to produce a better product if both I and my competitors can label the product with the same claim? Now a few companies do the extra advertising to get that message to potential customers. But that's expensive. Hebrew National (We answer to a HIGHER Authority!) comes to mind... But also folks who don't trust the GOVT certificate of ORGANIC have tried to advertise the alternatives to the MINIMUM standard.

Now that was trivial, but I'll give you a different example. I asked in a tech meeting one day "what cost point do you want"? It was for a medical product. The marketing guy laughed and said "not important" because we were replacing a reimbursable procedure that included "outpatient hospital care" with an at home method of treatment. And the GOVT was gonna reimburse the same way for either. We had NO INCENTIVE to make a reduction in medical costs. And that's VERY sad JonL. And you wonder why ObamaCare had virtually nothing to say about controlling costs?

THAT's the kind of pertubation of the free market that has angered me into becoming a zealot.. And I want people to know what happens when they place their faith in centralized govt meddling..

BlueStreak
06-15-2011, 11:56 PM
LOL! Did I ever learn it when I got my moped, and later motorcycle. People are idiots.

Pete

Oh, no, Pete. That's just not true. Why don't you know Flac can take ANYONE and turn them into a Chemical Engineer? Deep down inside, we're all geniuses, ruined by the public school system..............................:confused:

Dave

BlueStreak
06-15-2011, 11:57 PM
We're taking on more than water at the moment. There's a good bit of hail droppin' out of the sky too. Sounds lovely on tin. :D

Please send some my way.

Dave

flacaltenn
06-16-2011, 09:30 AM
BlueStreak:

Oh, no, Pete. That's just not true. Why don't you know Flac can take ANYONE and turn them into a Chemical Engineer? Deep down inside, we're all geniuses, ruined by the public school system..............................



Well in Pete's case -- that's easy.. He's probably already got experience in distilling stuff.

piece-itpete
06-17-2011, 08:58 AM
LOL! But no. Although I saw a still at a garage sale a coupla years back, I could kick myself for not buying it. And I never did go into meth production lol.

... Deep down inside, we're all geniuses, ruined by the public school system.....

THAT'S ME!!!!

:D

Pete

merrylander
06-17-2011, 10:22 AM
Please send some my way.

Dave

Didn't you get rain last night? We got a good amount just in time because they seeded the front after grinding all the old black pine stumps and planting eleven Norway Spruce.

BlueStreak
06-17-2011, 11:43 AM
Apparently, Yes. I've been working ten and twelve hour shifts all week. (But, our media tells us industrial production is down?) The ground was wet this morning, and my neighbor said we had a storm last night. I slept right through it.

Dave