The OTHER versions of the health bill

[OvenMaster]

So far, I am only able to find one verson of House Resolution 3200, the health care reform bill dated July 14, 2009:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=111_cong_bills&docid=f:h3200ih.txt.pdf

There are at least four other versions floating out there that I can't find. I was hoping that some here might know where they might be.

My mom is rip-roaring angry and very scared. My dad is talking sitting on the steps of the Capitol and letting government agents shoot him. They watched today's (August 11) New Hampshire town hall meeting where Obama was the one giving the answers to questions, and they swear on Bibles that Obama said that there WILL be "death panels" to determine whether one is sufficiently productive in society, that there WILL be cutoffs of drugs for the elderly so that they die off, and that there WILL be mandatory "flu" inoculations or face being arrested and quarantined in camps, I am the one that has to deal with the fallout.

They believe the transcript of the town hall meeting from today's New York Times has been edited and is false, and does not accurately reflect the actual meeting.

When I tell them that this fearmongering and outright lies aren't true because "I have seen NOTHING in the bill. It's not there", I get "Did you read all four or five bills? It's in there! Rush says so!" stuff. It's like talking to a brick wall. They hear or believe one thing, and quoting one version of the bill is insufficient. I need the others.

No, they do not have Alzheimer's. No they are not crazy. They simply do not want any changes to what they have already. Yes, they believe Rush Limbaugh. They are solid Republicans.

So. If Rush Limbaugh can get a hold of the other versions of the health bill and be able to read these things, then I should be able to access them, too. Anyone have the slightest clue of where the other versions are?

[soundhound]

folks, you are being snowballed. the insurance companies and hmo's are filling you full of it. health care should not be for profit, period

[wajobu]

Tom--that's nothing, but horse-hockey. I just can't believe it, but Rush Limbaugh and his ilk are liars. These bills are still in committee, but they will soon enough be in the Federal Register once they become bills for voting.

Every single one of the falsehoods professed by Rush and his henchmen (and women) have been refuted with facts to the contrary--your poor parents are being bamboozled.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/?e=10&ref=text

I gotta say that almost anything is better than the price increases that I have seen in the last 8 years (under our so-called private competitive healthcare system)...we'll go bankrupt paying for healthcare next year--seriously.

[OvenMaster]

You guys know it, and I know it. But I can't convince my folks otherwise. And not only is it causing fights in the house, but it's driving me --and them-- crazy.

This is why I need the other bill versions, so I can read the chapter and verse of these provisions that are being quoted as "in the bill", but not in the one version that's out already.

[soundhound]

You guys know it, and I know it. But I can't convince my folks otherwise. And not only is it causing fights in the house, but it's driving me --and them-- crazy.

This is why I need the other bill versions, so I can read the chapter and verse of these provisions that are being quoted as "in the bill", but not in the one version that's out already.

i'm in nearly the same boat. my parents are going broke paying for doctor visits and prescription medicines. yet they are against healthcare reform.

my stepdad is 6 years into his pacemaker, has high blood pressure, and is borderline diabetic. he is the poster child for clean living. he doesn't drink, smoke, curse, eat un-healthy food, and at 72, has just quit working. he retired from cooper tire around 10 years ago after 31 years of service. when he retired, he kept his health insurance through the company. over the years, his benefits have been reduced and his premiums have increased, dramatically.

my mom has neuropothy (spelling?), high blood pressure, arthritis, and her spine is deteriorating. she is fighting the need for a wheel chair with all her might, but can barely move.

together, they pay for somewhere on the order of 14 prescription medicines every month. though their insurance kicks in, the deductibles and copays are eating them alive. my stepdad was recently hospitalized for a few days after his pacemaker defibulated (spell?) him. they just paid a hospital bill of just over 1000 dollars that his insurance and medicaid did not cover. people on fixed incomes (low ones at that) just can't afford this.

there are people in this country who work hard and pay into the system that are doing without healthcare because they can't afford it.

i myself do without some things i need. i have health insurance. i work for the state as a teacher, so my coverage is comparibly above average. i need glasses, dentures, have foot fungus, and have lately been experiencing cramps in my hands. i have to be half dead before i'll go to the doctor, simply because the cost is so great, i would literally have to do without something (admittedly luxuries) to pay for it. between the deductibles, copays, and the 20% i am responsible for, god forbid i ever had some kind of major health problems. my share of the payment burden would put me in the poor house.

there are many people who are against reform because they say they are happy with their current health care. this i do not understand. maybe they are wealthy enough to afford whatever the health fairy throws at them or maybe they just have never had any problems serious enough to cause them financial woes. i don't know. but i cannot help but to think that if they ever suffered some major illness, they would come to realize rapidly the error of their belief.

the reality of free market medicine is that the wealthy are getting proper healthcare, while the poor are getting fucked. as if poverty did not have enough disadvantages already, add to them a shorter lifespan.

come on fools, pull the wool from your eyes! you are being lied to by people who don't give a fat rat's ass whether you live or die so long as the profits keep rolling in.

i don't think the bill, if passed, is going nearly far enough. in a country as wealthy as ours, their is no excuse for not providing FREE healthcare to anyone and everyone who is in our country and in need. fuck the insurance companies.

[cabinover]

Pelosi will be proud of your union backed statement. I will agree with you on this part

"come on fools, pull the wool from your eyes! you are being lied to by people who don't give a fat rat's ass whether you live or die so long as the profits keep rolling in."

The only difference is I see the government being in the lead role here and change the word profits to taxes.

[noonereal]

It is frightening to see Murdoch and Limbaugh scare the little guy so.

Folks this is like finding fault with the Child Labor Laws, OSHA or FDA.

No government run program is perfect but no big business is either.
One thing that history has proved is that the government can be trusted much more than private industry.

[Charles]

Personally, I have no idea what is in the bill, or as to how much it will cost.

But the country is pretty much equally split politically, and while not the only issue, this seems to be THE issue which is bringing them into the streets.

And I don't like what's happening in the least. I would recommend that the politicians slow down and attempt to calm the electorate before they proceed with this particular issue.

I'm not looking forward to riots in the streets, and I can see it happening. People are getting hot.

Chas

[noonereal]

I agree Chas and the irony is astounding.

I am against what I know of this health care bill but not because of lying agenda driven self consumed fear mongers.

I simply think we cannot afford it right now as we had to repair the economy from the obscene profits made on our economic rape.

[merrylander]

We are not wealthy and health insurance takes about $10k a year and that does not cover drugs although it does provide a discount card for drugs. Now if a pollster asked if we were happy with our insurance we would say yes, it is a good plan. Now if that same pollster was not working the wrong side of the street he/she would also ask "Are you happy with the cost?" we would say hell no. So much for polls as the old expression goes "Figures do not lie but liars sure can figure."

Ban TV adverstising and magazine advertising of drugs if you want to cut costs, they spend nearly $30 billion a year on that alone.

Apparently the "consultation on end of life" as set out in the bill is supposed to be determined by some group down the road with few specifics. Adding the simple wording that such consultation is purely voluntary would probably calm many fears.

As for Limbaugh he is as the book suggested "a big fat liar" and a drug abuser to boot, by his own admission.

Oh ye generation of vipers!

[merrylander]

Tom,

Try this link

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-3200&tab=related

Shows all sorts of Bills introduced passed and not passed or approved in relation to HR-3200. I tried getting the text of HR-3200 but Explorer locked up every time.

[Twodogs]

America is rich? Don't tell the Chicoms or they may call in the debt.:p

[merrylander]

Actuall TD it is only 1% that is rich, the rest of us are peons.:rolleyes:

[OvenMaster]

I think that part of the problem my parents are having is that they want to cut the subsidies for Medicare Advantage plans.

My parents both have plans that they like very much. Before they went with them, we crunched all the numbers, and they were willing to give the plans a try. In practice, even paying the monthly premium for their plans as well as the Part B Medicare insurance premiums, my folks have saved big, big money... a couple thousand this year alone. If they didn't have the MA plans, they'd be on the hook for the 20% of what Medicare alone says they'd have to pay... and that's what they would not be able to afford.

I mean, come on. One test alone cost $2000. 20% of that is $400... and that's more than an entire year of MA premiums! The co-pay for that test was ZERO, thanks to the MA plan.

No, they don't want any changes. I can see why. The numbers prove the MA plan works for them... beautifully.

****************************

I tried that link and repeatedly get this:

"NOTE: Once Congress goes on break in mid-August we'll be upgrading our hardware so we have less downtime once the fall session begins. 7/30/09

GovTrack.us is currently having some down time. Either the website is undergoing maintenance, or the site was shut down because of an error or high load.

Please try reloading the page in just a few moments.

If the problem persists, please bookmark this page and return in a few hours. Thanks for visiting!"

[Twodogs]

There's something going on here in America that hasn't happened in a long time. For whatever reasons, this administration has brought thousands (at the very least) of American people back into politics. I believe (from what I see and read) that many of them are seasoned citizens. The disturbing part of that for me, is that it seems like many times, these "seasoned" citizens get written off. I hear people say things like "old folks" or "old fogeys" in a derogatory manner. Some even act like these people are somehow less intelligent. How can living 7, 8, or even 9 decades make you unintelligent or misinformed. I'm talking about people who lived through WWII, the Great Depression, and too many presidents to recall; good ones AND bad ones. I ask you, does anyone here feel like they are less "smart" than they were say 10 years ago? Of course we don't; every day we live, we learn new things. What I'm getting at is this; I think there is more to these town hall meetings than just health care. I truly believe that people are starting to have a genuine distrust of the President, and congress in general. I'm not even saying that the distrust is justiifed, maybe it's not. I would love to see everyone get the health care they need, without any of the middle class having to endure tax hikes (I truly would). I truly hope I'm dead wrong about this administration, and that in 8 years we will all be living on milk and honey (I really do). But, just think about what has transpired in the last 7 months. Think about how "fast" everything is changing. Think about what has been in the news everyday (by both left and right medias). Why then, wouldn't these "seasoned" people, have concerns, and yes, doubts. When I think about Nazi Germany (and I'm a buff), I always think of the footage that's available of the concentration camps being liberated. Some of it shows older town folk (Germans) looking on in horror. The same question always eneters my mind; How did they not know, or how did they stand by and let this happen? How in the hell, did a washed out painter and convict, trick a whole country full of peopel? If only one Jewish man per household would have opened the door with a pistol when the SS came, and shot just one, how many could have been saved? I've been thinking about these things all my life. My Dad used to tell the my brothers and me stories from that war, and to me, it was the most fascinating thing that could ever be. So, here we are with a new kind of President (yes, he's black) that is passing legislation and spending borrowed money faster than anyone EVER thought about before. This same president, was friends with Bill Ayres and went to Rev. Wrights church for twenty years (the guy who hates America). He has also appointed a bunch of Czars, that don't answer to any voters. At least two of these are self evowed comunists. Twice this president voted against legislation that would have required children born from botched abortions to receive medical care (because it would have interefered with the mothers decision to abort in the first place). Why then, do we find it odd that some of our older citizens don't trust this man?

[painter]

There's something going on here in America that hasn't happened in a long time. For whatever reasons, this administration has brought thousands (at the very least) of American people back into politics. I believe (from what I see and read) that many of them are seasoned citizens. The disturbing part of that for me, is that it seems like many times, these "seasoned" citizens get written off. I hear people say things like "old folks" or "old fogeys" in a derogatory manner. Some even act like these people are somehow less intelligent. How can living 7, 8, or even 9 decades make you unintelligent or misinformed. I'm talking about people who lived through WWII, the Great Depression, and too many presidents to recall; good ones AND bad ones. I ask you, does anyone here feel like they are less "smart" than they were say 10 years ago? Of course we don't; every day we live, we learn new things. What I'm getting at is this; I think there is more to these town hall meetings than just health care. I truly believe that people are starting to have a genuine distrust of the President, and congress in general. I'm not even saying that the distrust is justiifed, maybe it's not. I would love to see everyone get the health care they need, without any of the middle class having to endure tax hikes (I truly would). I truly hope I'm dead wrong about this administration, and that in 8 years we will all be living on milk and honey (I really do). But, just think about what has transpired in the last 7 months. Think about how "fast" everything is changing. Think about what has been in the news everyday (by both left and right medias). Why then, wouldn't these "seasoned" people, have concerns, and yes, doubts. When I think about Nazi Germany (and I'm a buff), I always think of the footage that's available of the concentration camps being liberated. Some of it shows older town folk (Germans) looking on in horror. The same question always eneters my mind; How did they not know, or how did they stand by and let this happen? How in the hell, did a washed out painter and convict, trick a whole country full of peopel? If only one Jewish man per household would have opened the door with a pistol when the SS came, and shot just one, how many could have been saved? I've been thinking about these things all my life. My Dad used to tell the my brothers and me stories from that war, and to me, it was the most fascinating thing that could ever be. So, here we are with a new kind of President (yes, he's black) that is passing legislation and spending borrowed money faster than anyone EVER thought about before. This same president, was friends with Bill Ayres and went to Rev. Wrights church for twenty years (the guy who hates America). He has also appointed a bunch of Czars, that don't answer to any voters. At least two of these are self evowed comunists. Twice this president voted against legislation that would have required children born from botched abortions to receive medical care (because it would have interefered with the mothers decision to abort in the first place). Why then, do we find it odd that some of our older citizens don't trust this man?


Thank you TD you are a wise thinking man. I won't discuss the health care issue...I have in the past. I would just like to tell you as my FINAL post here...that I have spoken to those who were interred in concentration camps. In fact my children grew to know one particular man...lets call him Stan. Stan was a fine man who was forced to pull the naked bodies from the gas chambers and place them in carts. His eyes filled when telling us this. And he vever spoke of it again...ever. On the hottest day in summer...Stan wore a long sleeve shirt...would sweat profusely doing his gardening. One day he removed it to get another...and when he did...I saw the concentration camp numbers on his arm. He noticed me looking and we talked. His words I will not tell you...but I shall never forget. Perhaps I am cautious about or American way of life...perhaps I would like to be back in the twentieth century as been accused. But I shall always remember Stan...what he went through and will reject anything that remotely could deny my children or grandchildren FREEDOM. Perhaps I'm a bit more mature than a COW...at least I have lived life and have my eyes wide open. I wish all of you God's blessings and that includes President Obama. AMERICA love it OR leave it! :)

[merrylander]

I also knew a man Reuben who bore tha same tattoo, though he never tried to hide it. I never asked him about it, it was just not the thing to do. Lived through the Great Depression, WW II and all the rest that followed. Have I seen changes? Damn straight, there was a time when people were kind toward each other, when they helped up those who had fallen. Now they simply cross over to the other side of the road. Oh wait, that happened many years ago also. There is a bitterness and outright hatred abroad in this country today that would make Jesus weep.

[painter]

I also knew a man Reuben who bore tha same tattoo, though he never tried to hide it. I never asked him about it, it was just not the thing to do. Lived through the Great Depression, WW II and all the rest that followed. Have I seen changes? Damn straight, there was a time when people were kind toward each other, when they helped up those who had fallen. Now they simply cross over to the other side of the road. Oh wait, that happened many years ago also. There is a bitterness and outright hatred abroad in this country today that would make Jesus weep.


One more thing...

You just called people who will protest on Washington...NUT CASES!

Name calling is not the answer. Tolerance to other peoples beliefs and ideas might be the answer.

OUR Constitution gives us that right. The problems abroad are for those we elect to deal with. We pay their salaries to do so.
We have major problems here merrylander...people are angry.
I have enjoyed your posts...but forgive me for saying this...if you were not so full of yourself...you'd be more understanding to the needs of people.
Respectfully

[merrylander]

I read the message regarding the 3 day protest march. It contained zero, nada, nothing of concern for people who have had their lives destroyed by the existing system. They have shown absolutely no regard for the views of others, so why should I be concerned with their viewpoint. We had an expression in Quebec for people like that "Tete de pioche", literally translated it is "Hoe head", indicating that the person's view was as broad minded as the edge of a hoe blade.

Full of myself? Well the Good Lord did not give me much of a body so he compensated with a functionning brain. Perhaps I have simply lived long enough to watch people make foolish mistakes, and then proceed to do exactly the same thing expecting a different result. I have heard enough lies to last me for another 78 years.

Go back to hillbilly's post and read the 'call to arms' and show me where it contained even a smidgen of concern for people with no health care. A little boy here in DC died because his parents had no insurance and his teeth became diseased. Maybe they can march by his house and bow their heads in memoriam. Maybe I am just a bit tired of this Jack System we have.

Whatever, as I can see little point in attempting to discuss healtcare here I shall remove myself from all the august presences here.

[Twodogs]

I would just like to tell you as my FINAL post here...)

I would ask that you please re-consider. I understand that you have been treated poorly, but you must realize that these times we are living in have people scared, and acting in ways that they normally would not. I was once nearly "bullied" off another forum that I frequent, but as I was writing a note to send to the many friends I had made there, it dawned on me. I'm not there for that bully anyway. On the contrary, I'm there for my friends, and to gain knowledge, and to pass that knowledge along to the newbies. When I first started posting here, there wasn't a lot going on, but I found myself coming back to see what certain people had written. I always looked for your posts first, and this place will be the poorer if those posts are gone. Don't leave because of the honery folks Painter, stay because of the good ones.:)

[JJIII]

I will echo TWODOGS. Silence will fix nothing.

[Charles]

I would ask that you please re-consider. I understand that you have been treated poorly, but you must realize that these times we are living in have people scared, and acting in ways that they normally would not. I was once nearly "bullied" off another forum that I frequent, but as I was writing a note to send to the many friends I had made there, it dawned on me. I'm not there for that bully anyway. On the contrary, I'm there for my friends, and to gain knowledge, and to pass that knowledge along to the newbies. When I first started posting here, there wasn't a lot going on, but I found myself coming back to see what certain people had written. I always looked for your posts first, and this place will be the poorer if those posts are gone. Don't leave because of the honery folks Painter, stay because of the good ones.:)

Well put, my friend. I've been there.

Chas

[Sandy G]

Nobody needs to leave...This is a big tent, I think we got room for EVERYBODY here...

[stereocuuple]

C'mon painter... things were just getting good!

Erin

[Twodogs]

See there Painter? Friends, just like I was saying.:)

[noonereal]

One more thing...

You just called people who will protest on Washington...NUT CASES!





A few things about these protesters

1) We just completed an election process and voted for a leader to lead.
Nothing wrong with protest but when protest is started the same day as a new leader is sworn in it makes me feel that the process was never respected and that is a much bigger problem.
2) The protests are being organized and coerced by media and political party. They are not naturally rising from the electorate as is healthy. This coupled with the Rove Doctrine of "just flat out lie" enough and people will believe you will led to instability and will undermine our constitution.
3) I see so many scared folks who have benefited from the types of policies being protested protesting and scared now. This is an artificial fear which has become the chief rallying tool of what was once a proud political party.

[OvenMaster]

A few things about these protesters


2) The protests are being organized and coerced by media and political party.

I personally don't believe that one for one second. It's one thing to see people "protesting", but when I see these protesters on TV or YouTube, I'm looking at their faces and what I see is real fear and anger. America simply doesn't have all that many great actors who can play roles like that. My parents are examples of people who are scared, and if our rep came to a townhall meeting you can bet that my folks would be screaming just as loud as anyone else.

[noonereal]

I personally don't believe that one for one second. It's one thing to see people "protesting", but when I see these protesters on TV or YouTube, I'm looking at their faces and what I see is real fear and anger. America simply doesn't have all that many great actors who can play roles like that. My parents are examples of people who are scared, and if our rep came to a townhall meeting you can bet that my folks would be screaming just as loud as anyone else.

I understand that these individual protesters are sincere, my comment spoke to the cause of their fear. Think about it. Do your parents have any complains with Medicare?
If not why would they be so scared of the proposed health care plan.

I think it is alittle naive to not think Fox and the GOP are not purposely causing this fear.

[cabinover]

I also think it naive on your part to believe it's merely a couple television shows doing this and not a real interest by the people.

[noonereal]

It's allot more than a few television shows inciting these well meaning and scared folks.

I guess we just have to disagree.

[OvenMaster]

I've been doing a lot of thinking over the past day or so.

I've come to a few conclusions. Right or wrong, they are mine.

One is that the senior citizens of this country are not stupid. They would not be able to reach their age without acquired knowledge, life experience, common sense, reading the fine print, instinct, and a healthy dose of skepticism. Senior citizens in this country have my deepest respect. They are our largest collection of living knowledge, as well as the single biggest voting bloc. Legislators that ignore this fact do so at their own peril in 2010.

I have also come to the conclusion that if this health reform bill was truly all that wonderful, beneficial, and great, I'd be seeing a lot more positive press and media coverage on it. I'd be seeing people happy to have it pass quickly and come to fruition.

But I don't.

Think about this for a moment. I mainly see a lot of angry and scared seniors. The only people I see happy about health reform are government and pharmaceutical manufacturers... who are trying to push this bill through with all deliberate speed.

I see a lot of people trying to stop the bill. I see very little in the way of anything that effectively soothes peoples' fears.

That, to me, spells big trouble.

Over the past fifty years of my life, whenever I saw a debate form over political issues, I always paid attention to who would benefit most from the passage a bill.

Anyone who complained would not be benefiting from a bill. Anyone who didn't complain would be in favor of it, usually for very good reason. I can't remember any major bill during my life that was passed that showed this to be wrong.

Do I want health care reform? Yes. Do I want the present bill passed? No. It's far too badly written and flawed. Far too encompassing. Far too secretive.

When my parents are up in arms over something like this, I have to pay attention. I'll freely admit that in most things they are far more knowledgeable and learned than I am. I try to calm them and address their concerns, but it's just about impossible.

A proper, well-crafted, complete bill with the best interests of the citizens of this country at its heart would be generating consensus and praise. Not screaming, death threats, fear, tears, and anger.

I cannot and will not support any proposal -- health care or otherwise -- that makes those I love most in this world cry in fear.


Noonereal, my parents are okay with Medicare. They would like a bit more affordability, however. Even with a great Medicare Advantage plan, their doctor, test, and prescription co-pays put a nice-sized dent in their finances.

[noonereal]

Not much in that post to argue with Tom. I think you though it out about right.