Has anyone here looked into the total Historical Origins of your Religion ?

[Big_Bill]

I have had a sorted relationship with Religion for my very start !

I asked way too many questions for any religious leader that I have had the opportunity to talk too.

Have Faith was the most common response that I received, others just told me that what I was asking was Blaspheme ? So I asked just what the definition of "Blaspheme" was ?

I have also noticed that many people have no idea concerning the founding of their religions. They just insist on the stories that where told them in church ? Until proven wrong !

So, have any of you researched your religion's factual histories ????

Now don't get this post wrong, I am very happy for those that are happy with their religion and Faith ! I never proselytize, as I am the soul member of my religion, and I am very Happy with that, although I am finding many fellow believers that agree with me ?

Bill

[neophyte]

Fact and reason are the poison pills of religion, because the ignorance and denial of them is the very foundation of such lines of thinking. Without the childhood indoctrination and fear mongering practices of religions, they would have been seen through and forgotten centuries ago. It is a source of endless amazement to me that the majority of our species fails to see through such a transparent farce.

[Bigerik]

Fact and reason are the poison pills of religion, because the ignorance and denial of them is the very foundation of such lines of thinking. Without the childhood indoctrination and fear mongering practices of religions, they would have been seen through and forgotten centuries ago. It is a source of endless amazement to me that the majority of our species fails to see through such a transparent farce.

So I'm guessing you are not a religious man....

[d-ray657]

I have been fortunate to have been exposed to the perspective of a Greek scholar in understanding the Christian scriptures. Much of that perspective puts into question how literal an actual interpretation is followed by those who claim to literally believe in everything said in the Bible.

I have also studied the history of the denomination in which I was raised - Methodism. The founder of Methodism, John Wesley, did not intend to start a new church. He wanted to reform the Church of England. The history of the Methodist Church in America is intertwined with the history of America's revolution. Part of my research into the history of the Methodist Church included a visit to the John Street Church in New York City, the first Methodist church in America. That actually made it the first Methodist Church, as the Methodists in England considered themselves reformers in the Church of England.

The thing that, IMHO, sets Methodism apart from other traditional denominations is that reason is an important component of the theology. I recognize that faith and reason are incompatible in many ways - indeed, faith is belief in something that cannot be proved. Nevertheless, I also recognize (believe?) that spirituality is part of life. The feeling I had when I visited the John Street Church might be explained as a chemical or physiological process, but to me, it seemed like a religious experience.

On the other hand, another matter that rests deeply within my belief system is the absolute necessity for separation of church and state.

Regards,

D-Ray

[finnbow]

Fact and reason are the poison pills of religion, because the ignorance and denial of them is the very foundation of such lines of thinking. Without the childhood indoctrination and fear mongering practices of religions, they would have been seen through and forgotten centuries ago. It is a source of endless amazement to me that the majority of our species fails to see through such a transparent farce.

I have been fortunate to have been exposed to the perspective of a Greek scholar in understanding the Christian scriptures. Much of that perspective puts into question how literal an actual interpretation is followed by those who claim to literally believe in everything said in the Bible....
...I recognize that faith and reason are incompatible in many ways - indeed, faith is belief in something that cannot be proved. Nevertheless, I also recognize (believe?) that spirituality is part of life. The feeling I had when I visited the John Street Church might be explained as a chemical or physiological process, but to me, it seemed like a religious experience.

On the other hand, another matter that rests deeply within my belief system is the absolute necessity for separation of church and state.

Regards,

D-Ray

Well done, gentlemen. Deep in my heart and mind (and if I take the time to think about it), I pretty much believe as Neophyte does. I don't think deeply about religion in a personal way, but have a strong interest in religion's influence on history, culture, and contemporary politics.

I also believe that if man had no religion he'd invent one and that most people have their faith due to circumstance of birth. I like to think I have religious tolerance, but must admit that I don't like the Evangelical movement's influence in American politics.

Would we be better off as a nation or a world without religion? I have mixed feelings on this one.

[Charles]

Don't trust most preachers any more than I trust most politicians.

So I've got my own church, my own political party, and drinking is allowed at the camp meetings because I'm the bartender.

Anyone is allowed to attend, unless I don't like 'em, and BYOB.

Chas

[Big_Bill]

I have been fortunate to have been exposed to the perspective of a Greek scholar in understanding the Christian scriptures. Much of that perspective puts into question how literal an actual interpretation is followed by those who claim to literally believe in everything said in the Bible.

I have also studied the history of the denomination in which I was raised - Methodism. The founder of Methodism, John Wesley, did not intend to start a new church. He wanted to reform the Church of England. The history of the Methodist Church in America is intertwined with the history of America's revolution. Part of my research into the history of the Methodist Church included a visit to the John Street Church in New York City, the first Methodist church in America. That actually made it the first Methodist Church, as the Methodists in England considered themselves reformers in the Church of England.

The thing that, IMHO, sets Methodism apart from other traditional denominations is that reason is an important component of the theology. I recognize that faith and reason are incompatible in many ways - indeed, faith is belief in something that cannot be proved. Nevertheless, I also recognize (believe?) that spirituality is part of life. The feeling I had when I visited the John Street Church might be explained as a chemical or physiological process, but to me, it seemed like a religious experience.

On the other hand, another matter that rests deeply within my belief system is the absolute necessity for separation of church and state.

Regards,

D-Ray

Interesting D-Ray,

But have you looked into the founding of The Church of England, and why it was founded. Or the reasons that the Methodists Church wanted to reform the Church of England ? And why the Methodist Church of England feels separate from the Methodist Church here in America ?

And due to the Church of England having broken off from the Catholic Church, have you looked into Origin of the Catholic Church and Christianity itself ?

Inquiring minds ?

Bill

[d-ray657]

If I recall my history, Henry the VIII was not raised to be a king, but a bishop or higher. When his brother, the heir to the throne, died an untimely death, Henry took the position that it was his duty to not only assume the crown, but to succeed his brother as the husband to Catherine of Aragon. When she failed to give birth to an heir, Henry theorized that he had misinterpreted his duty to marry his brother's widow, and that is why she had not borne a son. He sought an annulment, but unfortunately for Hank 8, Catherine was the Pope's neice. He was, therefore, not inclined to buy into Hank's theory. Hank then decided to take his ball and go home - he formed his own church and sent Cathy packing.

The story aptly demonstrates that churches are indeed worldly institutions. The more powerful they become - and the Roman Catholic Church was powerful indeed - the more subject they are to corruption. (Of course many here say the same thing about governments and, some of us, about corporations). Any institution in which humans are involved is doomed to some level of imperfection, as are we lowly humans. Maybe for some, religious belief reflects a desire to associate themselves with something to which they ascribe perfection. What I know is that the particular group of religious folks, with whom I associate, display characteristics that I consider admirable, and together are able improve the existence of many people around them. Whatever it is that inspires that altruism can't be all bad.

Regards,

D-Ray

[piece-itpete]

Neo and my fellow religion distrusters, remember it wasn't the 'tree of knowledge' - it was the 'tree of knowledge of good and evil'. Anyone who reads the Bible for themselves can see that reason is more than welcomed, it is neccessary. Solomon asked for the gift of wisdom, and Jesus choked the government of man with his Socratic reasoning.

Hello Bill, nice to meet you :)

Don't trust most preachers any more than I trust most politicians.

So I've got my own church, my own political party, and drinking is allowed at the camp meetings because I'm the bartender.

Anyone is allowed to attend, unless I don't like 'em, and BYOB.

Chas

LOL! But hey, buy the beer, you'll get more members :D

Pete

[Charles]

It ain't "The Church of Free Beer".

Chas

[piece-itpete]

Dang. Sorry, I suddenly have deep philosophical differences with your sect.

:D

Pete

[Big_Bill]

Yes D-Ray,

Henry VIII needed a male heir for the throne of England, and the Pope wanted too much money for his granting of the annulment. So:

King Henry VIII of England

The English Reformation was initially driven by the dynastic goals of Henry VIII, who, in his quest for a consort who would bear him a male heir, found it expedient to replace papal authority with the supremacy of the English crown. The early legislation focused primarily on questions of temporal and spiritual supremacy. The introduction of the Great Bible in 1538 brought a vernacular translation of the Scriptures into churches. The Dissolution of the Monasteries and the seizure of their assets by 1540 brought huge amounts of church land and property under the jurisdiction of the Crown, and ultimately into the hands of the English nobility. This simultaneously removed the greatest centers of loyalty to the pope and created vested interests which made a powerful material incentive to support a separate Christian church in England under the rule of the Crown.

And the founding of the Catholic Church depending on who you believe !

Protestants many times would like us to believe there was no early church structure or for that matter a specific early church and that Constantine "created" the Roman Catholic Church. they would also like us to believe there was no standardized early church leadership and no universal church leadership, all of these were creations of the third and fourth century. Although as a stated above not everyone the citations is as explicit as we may want them to be their very useful against the pseudo-history.

Religions Origin is often covered by layers of wishful thinking and superstition.

Bill

[Big_Bill]

I also believe that if man had no religion he'd invent one and that most people have their faith due to circumstance of birth. I like to think I have religious tolerance, but must admit that I don't like the Evangelical movement's influence in American politics.

Would we be better off as a nation or a world without religion? I have mixed feelings on this one.


Well finnbow,

Since we can not see GOD walking around here on Earth, I suppose that We Created GOD in our own image ! While I'm certain that he is near by at all times, as I very often hear people talking to him or calling his name.

And secondly, do you realy believe that people in general are better human beings today, than they were say 75 years ago ?

Bill

[Charles]

Dang. Sorry, I suddenly have deep philosophical differences with your sect.

:D

Pete

Being one who has always cared for the less fortunate, should you run out of your own beer, I'll fix you up with some of my cheap whiskey.

Which is why I have cheap whiskey in the first place. Some of the unfortunates of my congregation have felt the need to tithe.

They drink my Woodfords and replace it with Old Charter...because they can't tell any difference. Thank God they don't offer up Old Mill Lite!!!

Chas

[Charles]

Well folks, the Bible ain't a technical manual, a point lost by the fundamentalists, both Christian and atheist.

Religion isn't any thing to get all squirreled up about, just do what you feel is right. It's not a big deal.

Chas

[Big_Bill]

Neo and my fellow religion distrusters, remember it wasn't the 'tree of knowledge' - it was the 'tree of knowledge of good and evil'. Anyone who reads the Bible for themselves can see that reason is more than welcomed, it is neccessary. Solomon asked for the gift of wisdom, and Jesus choked the government of man with his Socratic reasoning.

Hello Bill, nice to meet you :)



LOL! But hey, buy the beer, you'll get more members :D

Pete


Hello Pete, Pleased to meet you as well ! :)

While I do not hold meetings, I have found individuals with very similar beliefs as I, and that is troubling ! Now I am no longer unique !

Just think aboult all the decisions that I would need to make as the leader of a new religion. I might have to translate my own Bible, set up accurate dates for my religious holidays, and the list goes on and on... I think that I will just keep my congregation small, me :rolleyes:

But it has been surprising to find others that have similar beliefs as I ?

Bill

[painter]

I have had a sorted relationship with Religion for my very start !

I asked way too many questions for any religious leader that I have had the opportunity to talk too.

Have Faith was the most common response that I received, others just told me that what I was asking was Blaspheme ? So I asked just what the definition of "Blaspheme" was ?

I have also noticed that many people have no idea concerning the founding of their religions. They just insist on the stories that where told them in church ? Until proven wrong !

So, have any of you researched your religion's factual histories ????

Now don't get this post wrong, I am very happy for those that are happy with their religion and Faith ! I never proselytize, as I am the soul member of my religion, and I am very Happy with that, although I am finding many fellow believers that agree with me ?

Bill

Hello Bill,
Well as for me...I never was much for joining a group of anything. Whether it be religious or otherwise. Although I was raised catholic, had parochial schooling and followed with the religion all our married life (you get the pic) I just found myself being a cafeteria catholic. Oh...I certainly believe in the creative aspect of the world by a higher power. My religion is quite simple really. It's pronounced usually by a soul healing spot in nature and definately needs no congregation to share the experience. it can be an open corn field with nothing but sky and myself. This I relish and can celebrate any day of the week. Which I do often. The roar of the mighty Niagara is most compelling. Do I believe in God? Indeed and the commandments.
Our children have chosen to be members of other denominations which is fine with both of us. IMO a person is never alone if he/she believes in someone/something more powerful outside the human concept. :)

[Rex E.]

Most folks have no clue about the early history of their religion. Just look at how the Torah was bastardized to make the Old Testament(just imagine whats been done to the New Testament over the centuries). Heck, most folks think there are only ten commandments but if you dig into the original "holy book" you'll find tenfold+ more..........

[neophyte]

Hello Pete, Pleased to meet you as well ! :)

While I do not hold meetings, I have found individuals with very similar beliefs as I, and that is troubling ! Now I am no longer unique !

Just think aboult all the decisions that I would need to make as the leader of a new religion. I might have to translate my own Bible, set up accurate dates for my religious holidays, and the list goes on and on... I think that I will just keep my congregation small, me :rolleyes:

But it has been surprising to find others that have similar beliefs as I ?

Bill

you should read Cat's Cradle by Kurt Vonnegut. You'd pick up all the pointers you need, and have a few hundred good laughs to boot. It's a brilliant book by a brilliant man.

[Big_Bill]

Most folks have no clue about the early history of their religion. Just look at how the Torah was bastardized to make the Old Testament(just imagine whats been done to the New Testament over the centuries). Heck, most folks think there are only ten commandments but if you dig into the original "holy book" you'll find tenfold+ more..........

Hello Rex,

I have always believed that any translation, from any language too any language is corrupted by the knowledge and region that the translator comes from, as well as his or her understanding of the subject matter.

I have studied a few languages, and those that use different styles of writing, such as Sumerian, Egyptian, Aramaic, Chinese etc. pose a problem of where they learned them. If the original translator or teacher has mistranslated a word, it would be continued for many years until someone examined this, and had the courage to point out the error. And then it is unlikely that his pears will go against the old accepted established translation at all ?

So each translator that handles a manuscript might change or alter it because of his lack of knowledge of the regional dialect, or due to his personal belief of the subject.

And how many languages were translated from their original language into latin, by Monks that may or may not have had a handle of the language, and placed their personal beliefs into a translation ? And then into German, then English ! WEW !!!!

Perhaps Lazarus was sleeping like the dead, or just dead drunk ?

Bill

[piece-itpete]

Being one who has always cared for the less fortunate, should you run out of your own beer, I'll fix you up with some of my cheap whiskey.

Which is why I have cheap whiskey in the first place. Some of the unfortunates of my congregation have felt the need to tithe.

They drink my Woodfords and replace it with Old Charter...because they can't tell any difference. Thank God they don't offer up Old Mill Lite!!!

Chas

LMAO I have tears in my eyes. 'need to tithe' ROFL!!!

Hello Pete, Pleased to meet you as well ! :)

While I do not hold meetings, I have found individuals with very similar beliefs as I, and that is troubling ! Now I am no longer unique !

Just think aboult all the decisions that I would need to make as the leader of a new religion. I might have to translate my own Bible, set up accurate dates for my religious holidays, and the list goes on and on... I think that I will just keep my congregation small, me :rolleyes:

But it has been surprising to find others that have similar beliefs as I ?

Bill

I don't know. Back when I saw the 'Dead in concert I was stuck by how many of my friends I met there - except they weren't the people I knew. I even met a person like myself. Very strange, like there are a kinda set number of templates with perhaps a list of options.

Or maybe they just attract weirdos :D

Holidays are a good example of how people do have that drive for ceremony & pomp. Wasn't it Paul who said it's better not to celebrate them?

And our current societies religion of reason and humanism? Holy moly, haven't they read a history book or newspaper in their life?

Pete

[merrylander]

The Smithsonian recently acquired Jefferson's Bible, all 84 pages long. He went through the King James version and extracted what he liked and did a cut and paste job.

What people seem to forget is that the bible was written by men (well maybe Ruth wrote her own section) it was not faxed down from above. Then it got translated by more men, and selectively edited by Constantine's flunkys, so there it is.

Personally we have found that to organized religion the 'organization' has become more important than the message, so we do not bother attending any church. Since I was raised attending a 'Union" church and my wife taught by nuns, we might have difficulty finding one church. That Union church had nowt to do with the AFL/CIO it was simply that the town was too small to have Anglican (God's frozen people), Presbyterian, Methodist, etc. denominations but it mainly followed United Church practices.

[Bigerik]

The Smithsonian recently acquired Jefferson's Bible, all 84 pages long. He went through the King James version and extracted what he liked and did a cut and paste job.

What people seem to forget is that the bible was written by men (well maybe Ruth wrote here own section) it was not faxed down from above. Then it got translated by more men, and selectively edited by Constantine's flunkys, so there it is.



Having attended Baptist churches for years with my ex, their view is that the Bible, is divinely inspired, and the translations up to the King James are perfect and infallible, and literally the word of God.

[Big_Bill]

Having attended Baptist churches for years with my ex, their view is that the Bible, is divinely inspired, and the translations up to the King James are perfect and infallible, and literally the word of God.

Hello Bigerik,

I started off with great FAITH, but wanted to understand the whys and wherefores of the Bible and the teachings of the religion as well. So religions just teach one thing, and practice another. And some religions don't even try to pretend that they follow all of the teachings of the Bible, or the Ten Commandments, or their respective Holy Book ?
And they explain this with FAITH, or Gods directions to the founder of the religion ? DA!

So I went off and read the Bible several times for my own gratification, to try to better understand the 80% of the Bible that they never seem to touch on ?
Needless to say, my education lead me to many questions and a different point of view.

So here I am, with an understanding of the read Bible ? Then I went into every book on Christianity to seek the answers, only to find none ? So I went on to understand the origins of Christianity to better understand all of this, and let me tell you, too much knowledge can be very confusing ! Because the deeper I went, the more questions I had ?

So I am just curious to see if their is anyone out there that has had a similar experience ?

Bill

[d-ray657]

Hello Bigerik,

I started off with great FAITH, but wanted to understand the whys and wherefores of the Bible and the teachings of the religion as well. So religions just teach one thing, and practice another. And some religions don't even try to pretend that they follow all of the teachings of the Bible, or the Ten Commandments, or their respective Holy Book ?
And they explain this with FAITH, or Gods directions to the founder of the religion ? DA!

So I went off and read the Bible several times for my own gratification, to try to better understand the 80% of the Bible that they never seem to touch on ?
Needless to say, my education lead me to many questions and a different point of view.

So here I am, with an understanding of the read Bible ? Then I went into every book on Christianity to seek the answers, only to find none ? So I went on to understand the origins of Christianity to better understand all of this, and let me tell you, too much knowledge can be very confusing ! Because the deeper I went, the more questions I had ?

So I am just curious to see if their is anyone out there that has had a similar experience ?

Bill

I've heard that some who attend seminary come out with a much less literal understanding of the Bible.

Regards,

D-Ray

[piece-itpete]

It's a great mystery. Even Jesus often spoke in riddles only explained to his closest, and Satan would surely like to confuse us. Most of what we think is probably wrong. After all we are corrupt. I wouldn't put too much stock in books, although I really liked 'The Perversion of Christianity'. The key is remembering the scales are balanced, our sins have been atoned by a blood sacrifice. No translation error or misunderstanding will change that. If the good Lord forgives the big stuff he'll certainly forgive the little stuff.

I think the big question is why, why were we created... there is no answer revealed as of yet.

We'll know soon enough :D So, 'When you reach, that golden city, friends and loved ones you will see. When the saints, come out to meet you.... Shake my mothers' hand for me.'

Cheers!

Pete

[JJIII]

We'll know soon enough :D So, 'When you reach, that golden city, friends and loved ones you will see. When the saints, come out to meet you.... Shake my mothers' hand for me.'

Cheers!

Pete

That reminded me of this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9IfHDi-2EA

[BlueStreak]

Religion?

I'm pretty sure it all started with a psyhcoactive substance. imbibed by a bunch of story telling old men flapping their stoned tongues at wide eyed children around a campfire.

Either that, or it was contrived by scheming politicians and charlatan preachers who wanted everyone to believe following anyone else was a sure ticket to hell. Or, at least to the stretching racks and fire pits.

Most likely, all of the above.

Spirituality?

That might be a different story.

Commonsense has usually been enough to keep me out of trouble.

You know; "If it seems like a stupid thing to do, it probably is."

Fancy that.

Dave

[neophyte]

Hello Bigerik,

I started off with great FAITH, but wanted to understand the whys and wherefores of the Bible and the teachings of the religion as well. So religions just teach one thing, and practice another. And some religions don't even try to pretend that they follow all of the teachings of the Bible, or the Ten Commandments, or their respective Holy Book ?
And they explain this with FAITH, or Gods directions to the founder of the religion ? DA!

So I went off and read the Bible several times for my own gratification, to try to better understand the 80% of the Bible that they never seem to touch on ?
Needless to say, my education lead me to many questions and a different point of view.

So here I am, with an understanding of the read Bible ? Then I went into every book on Christianity to seek the answers, only to find none ? So I went on to understand the origins of Christianity to better understand all of this, and let me tell you, too much knowledge can be very confusing ! Because the deeper I went, the more questions I had ?

So I am just curious to see if their is anyone out there that has had a similar experience ?

Bill

Kudos for your (no pun intended) good faith study of this matter. You appear to be well along the way of seeing it for just what it is....circle talk and mumbo jumbo. Well done.

[BlueStreak]

Kudos for your (no pun intended) good faith study of this matter. You appear to be well along the way of seeing it for just what it is....circle talk and mumbo jumbo. Well done.

I have a friend who possesses a Masters degree in Divinity. She got that when she was in her twenties. Now, she's a hair away from becoming an Atheist.

"The more you learn, the less sense it makes." She seems to think that the largest part of the religious thought process exists merely to sustain the organization, to leave the believer with no way out, sort of speak. "Leave the church and your life will become empty and meaningless? What's that all about? I'm happier now than I ever was hanging out with those people."

Dave

[finnbow]

"Leave the church and your life will become empty and meaningless? What's that all about?

Bingo?:D

[Charles]

That reminded me of this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9IfHDi-2EA

Old Johnny makes the rapture sound less like the second coming of Jesus than the resurrection of Buford Pusser.

Chas

[Twodogs]

I think there are things we just won't ever understand. If someone wants to have faith in a higher power that's fine with me, and if they don't, well that's fine too. I do believe in a higher power but wouldn't claim to have a clue what or who it is? I think man has always needed to think there is something more than what we get here. Combine that with with their ignorance of things like the sun and stars early on, and it's easy to see how Gods came about.

[Charles]

Maybe we're an interplanetary prison colony our masters no longer want anything to do with.

Chas

[Big_Bill]

It's a great mystery. Even Jesus often spoke in riddles only explained to his closest, and Satan would surely like to confuse us. Most of what we think is probably wrong. After all we are corrupt. I wouldn't put too much stock in books, although I really liked 'The Perversion of Christianity'. The key is remembering the scales are balanced, our sins have been atoned by a blood sacrifice. No translation error or misunderstanding will change that. If the good Lord forgives the big stuff he'll certainly forgive the little stuff.

I think the big question is why, why were we created... there is no answer revealed as of yet.

We'll know soon enough :D So, 'When you reach, that golden city, friends and loved ones you will see. When the saints, come out to meet you.... Shake my mothers' hand for me.'

Cheers!

Pete

That is just the type of answer that I received from a Bishop in the Catholic Church, beautiful but worthless :(

I do remember reading in the Bible that God became bored with his first creation, the angels, due to their incessant bowing and praising, but after all that was what he created them for ! So he created US, and gave us freedom of choice, to decide if we would bough and praise him all the time, or what.
Now I do not know how that worked out because Eve took a bite out of the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and until then I don't remember reading about either of them doing much bowing or praising before that fruit thing. So after the fruit incident pure chaos erupted, and Adam and Eve were cast from the Garden of Edan ! After that time they seem to have spent all their time begating with one another, and that brings up another question, with who ! If Adam and Eve had Cane, Able and Seth ? You know !

Well I am sure that the creation of Man afforded God with quiet a interesting show to keep him amused :) or annoyed !

So we were an experiment of God, to basically see if Man would worship him excessively as the angels have, or what difference Freewill would have on this creation thing ?

Bill

[painter]

Hello Bigerik,

I started off with great FAITH, but wanted to understand the whys and wherefores of the Bible and the teachings of the religion as well. So religions just teach one thing, and practice another. And some religions don't even try to pretend that they follow all of the teachings of the Bible, or the Ten Commandments, or their respective Holy Book ?
And they explain this with FAITH, or Gods directions to the founder of the religion ? DA!

So I went off and read the Bible several times for my own gratification, to try to better understand the 80% of the Bible that they never seem to touch on ?
Needless to say, my education lead me to many questions and a different point of view.

So here I am, with an understanding of the read Bible ? Then I went into every book on Christianity to seek the answers, only to find none ? So I went on to understand the origins of Christianity to better understand all of this, and let me tell you, too much knowledge can be very confusing ! Because the deeper I went, the more questions I had ?

So I am just curious to see if their is anyone out there that has had a similar experience ?

Bill

Yes indeed! I read the bible from front to back. But spent time in the trenches to enlighten myself. Taught CCD classes, was president of a church ladies group whose volunteer work contributed to paying off a church expansion debt. And sadly...found that many who proclaim to be so called Christians...are not so much. Not that I expect perfection in anyone...but I did expect more than what I found.

I will add...sometimes we overthink a situation or problem.
With religion...faith is supposed to be the answer to all unanswerable questions.

[finnbow]

Yes indeed! I read the bible from front to back. But spent time in the trenches to enlighten myself. Taught CCD classes, was president of a church ladies group whose volunteer work contributed to paying off a church expansion debt. And sadly...found that many who proclaim to be so called Christians...are not so much. Not that I expect perfection in anyone...but I did expect more than what I found.

Organized religion, like politics, is a team sport. It's all about identifying with one's team while denigrating the others.

[Big_Bill]

I'm gonna be BAD here,

How many God's are there ? ONE, TWO or THREE ?

You know; The Father, Son and Holy Ghost

Bill

[d-ray657]

Organized religion, like politics, is a team sport. It's all about identifying with one's team while denigrating the others.

Not so much of the denigrating where I come from. Maybe that's why I have hung around. We have a pretty much "come as you are" attitude, and frankly, a pretty progressive social conscience. I found it interesting reading some of the early Social Principles of the Methodist Church. The church came out in favor of collective bargaining, against sweat shops and against child labor - and this was around the turn of the century. It's one of those churches Glenn Beck warned people off from.

Regards,

D-Ray

[finnbow]

Not so much of the denigrating where I come from. Maybe that's why I have hung around. We have a pretty much "come as you are" attitude, and frankly, a pretty progressive social conscience. I found it interesting reading some of the early Social Principles of the Methodist Church. The church came out in favor of collective bargaining, against sweat shops and against child labor - and this was around the turn of the century. It's one of those churches Glenn Beck warned people off from.

Regards,

D-Ray

Are you sure you're not a Unitarian?;)

[Rex E.]

I'm gonna be BAD here,

How many God's are there ? ONE, TWO or THREE ?

You know; The Father, Son and Holy Ghost

Bill

Always been my question....one cannot be the same. They are either three separate things or......so for me, three different things and only one is "God" the right hand is "the son of God" which by definition is not God and the "Holy Spirit" is just that not man and not God but rather something you feel.

There is one good way to make sure everyone believes in "your" God. Kill, rape, torture.....that's what those wonderful early church founders did (with a sprinkling of Pagan holidays mixed in so they could still have a bit of fun)

[painter]

Organized religion, like politics, is a team sport. It's all about identifying with one's team while denigrating the others.


I did not find any denegrading of other religions in the Catholic Church I attended. Nor any in the others I attended.
I was told that the Baptist Churches do practice hell and damnation to those not in league with their sect.
Sports and politics are other animals. :)

[Big_Bill]

Are you sure you're not a Unitarian?;)

How could I be a Unitarian, I' not a Vampire, and I don't even own a Unicorn !

I am a believer in GOD ! and not MAN.

Bill

Not so much of the denigrating where I come from. Maybe that's why I have hung around. We have a pretty much "come as you are" attitude, and frankly, a pretty progressive social conscience. I found it interesting reading some of the early Social Principles of the Methodist Church. The church came out in favor of collective bargaining, against sweat shops and against child labor - and this was around the turn of the century. It's one of those churches Glenn Beck warned people off from.

Regards,

D-Ray

Thank you d-ray657,

If you had not responded, I would have looked it up myself. These things interest me as it shows the evolution of the Christian Religion. But with 38,000 different Christian offshoots, it is impossible to check them all. So I only bother to look up those that I am exposed to.

I went to a Methodist Church as a child, and my mother had to remove me due to the questions I asked in Sunday school was disturbing the other children.. So I was taught nothing of their actual beliefs. Just Sunday School stories.

Bill

[d-ray657]

Are you sure you're not a Unitarian?;)

I've attended quite a few Unitarian services, and several of the Unity church as well. I believe in an afterlife, but I think that there are all sorts of ways to get there. I certainly don't think that folks who don't believe as I do are on the highway to Hell.

Regards,

D-Ray

[Twodogs]

I've attended quite a few Unitarian services, and several of the Unity church as well. I believe in an afterlife, but I think that there are all sorts of ways to get there. I certainly don't think that folks who don't believe as I do are on the highway to Hell.

Regards,

D-Ray

Any thoughts or ideas on what the other side will be like?

[finnbow]

I did not find any denegrading of other religions in the Catholic Church I attended. Nor any in the others I attended.
I was told that the Baptist Churches do practice hell and damnation to those not in league with their sect.
Sports and politics are other animals. :)

I too was raised Catholic, but I got over it.;) I do remember, however, that it was considered a mortal sin to attend a service of another faith.

[BlueStreak]

Maybe we're an interplanetary prison colony our masters no longer want anything to do with.

Chas

I've had that thought myself. Or mebbe the earth is a holding pen for livestock?

Dave

[BlueStreak]

Personally, I think that with all of the different religions, sects and cults there must be a forest behind them thar trees.

And it expects it's collection plate to be filled to the brim every Sunday, or your ass will burn.

Dave

[Big_Bill]

I've attended quite a few Unitarian services, and several of the Unity church as well. I believe in an afterlife, but I think that there are all sorts of ways to get there. I certainly don't think that folks who don't believe as I do are on the highway to Hell.

Regards,

D-Ray

D-Ray,

I believe that God always existed somewhere, and due to the fact that he is God, everything that he says or does is good.

I believe that Nature is the only perfect creation of life, and that man has to go through life making decisions between right and wrong.

Along the way we should do our best for our fellow man.

It's all more complicated than that, and even the best deeds go astray, but we should try !

I have also come to the conclusion that man has created religion to serve the leader of the religion's purposes, to control people for Rulers, Kings, Popes and Governments, as well as to provide a comfortable life for the leaders of the religions.

My beliefs are simple because I do not believe God intended believing in him should be clouded in superstition, rituals or mumbojumbo. And I know that he never intended for us to worship men, or place them on an pedestal.

Bill

[neophyte]

I too was raised Catholic, but I got over it.;) I do remember, however, that it was considered a mortal sin to attend a service of another faith.

my parents also subjected me to roman catholic brainwashing techniques, but, it didn't stick. even as a child, the ritualistic, forced drama of it all seemed quite hokey to me. i remember sitting in a catholic church at around eight or nine years of age, and wondering wtf was up. My father, being a lifer/mustang Marine, we were living on base at Camp LeJeune, NC, and I just couldn't reconcile the fact that I was sitting in a church built by, and full of, the self professed best killers of men in history. By the time I discovered the writings of Kurt Vonnegut at 11 or 12, I was already well down the road to reason, and reading his works galvanized my thinking.

YMMV, of course

[Rex E.]

My beliefs are simple because I do not believe God intended believing in him should be clouded in superstition, rituals or mumbojumbo. And I know that he never intended for us to worship men, or place them on an pedestal.

Bill


Right here is the "meat & taters" of it all. Remove the silly hocus-pocus and magic and it gets a bit more bearable.

I would equate the "magic" or "miracles" of it all to the light switch on the wall. That has to be magic also right as I can't see it but I got faith it's there every time I flip the switch ;)

[Big_Bill]

my parents also subjected me to roman catholic brainwashing techniques, but, it didn't stick. even as a child, the ritualistic, forced drama of it all seemed quite hokey to me. i remember sitting in a catholic church at around eight or nine years of age, and wondering wft was up. My father, being a lifer/mustang Marine, we were living on base at Camp LeJeune, NC, and I just couldn't reconcile the fact that I was sitting in a church built by, and full of, the self professed best killers of men in history. By the time I discovered the writings of Kurt Vonnegut at 11 or 12, I was already well down the road to reason, and reading his works galvanized my thinking.

YMMV, of course

I find your mentioning Kurt Vonnegut interesting, I may have to read his book. But if reading one book was all I did, I would still be a dedicated follower of religion.
I can not guess how many books that I have read to come to my conclusions, unfortunately tens of thousands of ancient books exist thay will never be put into print or scanned for access on the Net.

You know, I have come to the conclusion that a Priest, Rabbi, Minister etc. are group psychiatrists that their patients have greater trust and faith in, that is a very serious and dangerous position to give to anyone !

Bill

[BlueStreak]

my parents also subjected me to roman catholic brainwashing techniques, but, it didn't stick. even as a child, the ritualistic, forced drama of it all seemed quite hokey to me. i remember sitting in a catholic church at around eight or nine years of age, and wondering wtf was up. My father, being a lifer/mustang Marine, we were living on base at Camp LeJeune, NC, and I just couldn't reconcile the fact that I was sitting in a church built by, and full of, the self professed best killers of men in history. By the time I discovered the writings of Kurt Vonnegut at 11 or 12, I was already well down the road to reason, and reading his works galvanized my thinking.

YMMV, of course

My mother had big dreams. One of her seven kids was going to become a pious Christian Biblethumper come hell or high waters. After she failed with the first six, (And my father, but she never dared mess with him.) that left me to bear the brunt of her fanatical frustration. The one that came home from Vietnam and told her he was an Atheist really got her rolling.

One fine example was the Sunday morning I refused to go to church with her.
Told her I thought "All of those people are brainwashed. They give me the creeps.". She yanked an extension cord off of a lamp on my nightstand and put welts from the backs of my knees to my shoulder blades telling me, "You'll get Christ if I have to beat him into you."

To this day, I have no use for organized religion. Watching politicians pander to evangelicals and spout religious hullabaloo turns my stomach. Makes me want to do whatever I can to stop them.

Dave

[painter]

I too was raised Catholic, but I got over it.;) I do remember, however, that it was considered a mortal sin to attend a service of another faith.

That might have been before.....
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/ECUMENSM.HTM


The Kingdom has many rooms.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Jrh_uuPmd0

Love the sister! I find myself enjoying my Catholicism even more by watching her spoofs.

[Charles]

Eve ate from the tree of knowledge????

Gawd.

Chas

[painter]

Eve ate from the tree of knowledge????

Gawd.

Chas

Sister in reality is Jewish...ROFLMAO


OOPS right church...wrong pew....http://www.latenitecatechism.info/latenitecatechism/biomaripatdonovan/

[Charles]

Jesus should have done us all a big favor and chopped down the apple tree instead.

Chas

[piece-itpete]

But then what would George Washington have done? :)

That is just the type of answer that I received from a Bishop in the Catholic Church, beautiful but worthless :(

I do remember reading in the Bible that God became bored with his first creation, the angels, due to their incessant bowing and praising, but after all that was what he created them for ! So he created US, and gave us freedom of choice, to decide if we would bough and praise him all the time, or what.
Now I do not know how that worked out because Eve took a bite out of the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and until then I don't remember reading about either of them doing much bowing or praising before that fruit thing. So after the fruit incident pure chaos erupted, and Adam and Eve were cast from the Garden of Edan ! After that time they seem to have spent all their time begating with one another, and that brings up another question, with who ! If Adam and Eve had Cane, Able and Seth ? You know !

Well I am sure that the creation of Man afforded God with quiet a interesting show to keep him amused :) or annoyed !

So we were an experiment of God, to basically see if Man would worship him excessively as the angels have, or what difference Freewill would have on this creation thing ?

Bill

At least my post had the advantage of being beautiful.

Are you writing your own Bible? If you've made up your mind, what are you searching for?

Not so much of the denigrating where I come from. Maybe that's why I have hung around. We have a pretty much "come as you are" attitude, and frankly, a pretty progressive social conscience. I found it interesting reading some of the early Social Principles of the Methodist Church. The church came out in favor of collective bargaining, against sweat shops and against child labor - and this was around the turn of the century. It's one of those churches Glenn Beck warned people off from.

Regards,

D-Ray

Great post D. There are so many churches.

Pete

[merrylander]

I'm gonna be BAD here,

How many God's are there ? ONE, TWO or THREE ?

You know; The Father, Son and Holy Ghost

Bill

Then there was the priest who aske the hippie to stop referring to them as Daddy, Laddy and the Spook.

[merrylander]

I too was raised Catholic, but I got over it.;) I do remember, however, that it was considered a mortal sin to attend a service of another faith.

Guess I am bound for hell, as a Methodist I have takken communion in both Anglican and Catholic churches.

Has it not dawned on anyone here that the story of Adam and Eve was the first occasion of male chauvinism raising its ugly head.:rolleyes:

[Charles]

Then there was the priest who aske the hippie to stop referring to them as Daddy, Laddy and the Spook.

Wow man, that's like so uptown and outta state!!!

Chas

[merrylander]

I've had that thought myself. Or mebbe the earth is a holding pen for livestock?

Dave

I recall reading a SciFi novel that suggested we are merely grubs and that death is mereyly the chrysalis stage before we all turn into beautiful butterflies and fly off into space. You would have thought the Hubble telescope would have spotted some by now.:p

[merrylander]

my parents also subjected me to roman catholic brainwashing techniques, but, it didn't stick. even as a child, the ritualistic, forced drama of it all seemed quite hokey to me. i remember sitting in a catholic church at around eight or nine years of age, and wondering wtf was up. My father, being a lifer/mustang Marine, we were living on base at Camp LeJeune, NC, and I just couldn't reconcile the fact that I was sitting in a church built by, and full of, the self professed best killers of men in history. By the time I discovered the writings of Kurt Vonnegut at 11 or 12, I was already well down the road to reason, and reading his works galvanized my thinking.

YMMV, of course

Be thankful that you read Vonnegut and not L. Ron, Hubbard.

[merrylander]

Regarding the existence of a higher power, both Florence and me have had experiences where "someone" showed up at a time of great need but afterward did not go away but simply - 'evaporated' is probably the best word.

[neophyte]

Be thankful that you read Vonnegut and not L. Ron, Hubbard.

once you start eating from "the tree of wake the fuck up", none of that stuff makes the least bit of sense any more. I am very thankful to have found Vonnegut, to say the least. His work is as hilarious as it is insightful of the human condition, and that's really saying something.

[piece-itpete]

Then there was the priest who aske the hippie to stop referring to them as Daddy, Laddy and the Spook.

ROTFLMAO!

I remember when my church changed from 'Holy Ghost' to 'Holy Spirit'. Extremely progressive :)

Pete

[piece-itpete]

Good ol' Charlie Schultz...


.
.

[Charles]

I recall reading a SciFi novel that suggested we are merely grubs and that death is mereyly the chrysalis stage before we all turn into beautiful butterflies and fly off into space. You would have thought the Hubble telescope would have spotted some by now.:p

I'll buy the grubs part.

Chas

[Charles]

Good ol' Charlie Schultz...


.
.

Don't you have to be stupid to be wrong?

Chas

[Big_Bill]

But then what would George Washington have done? :)



At least my post had the advantage of being beautiful.

Are you writing your own Bible? If you've made up your mind, what are you searching for?



Great post D. There are so many churches.

Pete

No Pete,

One my greatest disappointments was finding that the oldest original manuscripts only existed in the Vatican, and in small pieces, how convenient. And only special personal within the Vatican archives division could view the small pieces. Ounce I learned that, I became even more suspicious of the Catholic Church. One would think that documents such as these, while being 200+ years old at the time of their writing, after the death of Christ, would have been better cared fore. And even the translations of these document into Latin, were restricted ! Why such great secrecy ????

So without even 200 year old data, the best translation available is the German Gootenberg translation. Which was used in the Jehovah Witness Bible translation.

About my search, I believe I answered that in a previous post ? However I believe in God as our supreme creator, but do not believe in Man or Man's created Religions !

As it is printed in the Bible, The blind and the leaders of the blind shall both fall into the Pit ! So I intend to go it on my own volition, and should I fall into the pit, I will only have myself to blame, and not because I blindly followed a charlatan, or false profit !

Bill

[piece-itpete]

I'm certainly not Catholic. That said I'm sure some Catholics will go to heaven, God being a forgiving god and all :p

What if Jesus is right?

Pete

[painter]

About my search, I believe I answered that in a previous post ? However I believe in God as our supreme creator, but do not believe in Man or Man's created Religions !

As it is printed in the Bible, The blind and the leaders of the blind shall both fall into the Pit ! So I intend to go it on my own volition, and should I fall into the pit, I will only have myself to blame, and not because I blindly followed a charlatan, or false profit !

Bill


Why is that not enough for you? If you believe in God and follow his commandments...or NOT (they have not changed) then as an all knowing and forgiving God...he will know what's in your heart and judge you accordingly.
You need no human to set your stage in life. If you need the acceptance of a group...then by all means search on. keeping in mind of coarse...they are no holier or worse than you are. That definately goes for the leader of the congregation. As Shakespeare said..."to thine own self be true." :D

[piece-itpete]

Very nice paint.

This has me pondering (between putting out fires!). Forget Jesus.

:D lol

If one believes there is NO revelation to humans from God, any god, then isn't any and all religious beliefs by definition man made?

Pete

[Big_Bill]

I'm certainly not Catholic. That said I'm sure some Catholics will go to heaven, God being a forgiving god and all :p

What if Jesus is right?

Pete


I believe that many people, of all and different religions will go to heaven !

I believe that it is how you live your life that will determine whether you make the cut or not. I also believe that forgiveness will be given to everyone that asks, if they are truly remorseful for their acts.

I believe that all of mankind are children of God. Some just call him by a different name !

Bill

[d-ray657]

I have searched Youtube and elsewhere in vain to find a particular clip from Barney Miller (my favorite all time comedy). In that episode, Steve Landesberg's character, Deitrich, mentions his agnosticism and his skepticism about an afterlife. One of the other characters (Wojo, i think) asks him what he was going to say if it turned out he was wrong.

In his classic understated style, Deitrich said "Oops."

I wonder if Rick Perry ever watched Barney Miller?

Regards,

D-Ray

[piece-itpete]

Ach I used 'isn't' instead of 'aren't'.

Oops.

:D

Pete

[Big_Bill]

Why is that not enough for you? If you believe in God and follow his commandments...or NOT (they have not changed) then as an all knowing and forgiving God...he will know what's in your heart and judge you accordingly.
You need no human to set your stage in life. If you need the acceptance of a group...then by all means search on. keeping in mind of coarse...they are no holier or worse than you are. That definately goes for the leader of the congregation. As Shakespeare said..."to thine own self be true." :D

I have not needed a "group" in 40 years, and seek none.

My search has been to find truth not relationships.

I do not remember reading anything concerning "a religion" in the Bible before Abraham ? While I know that there were many other's, as we call them "Pagan Religions" before Abraham's time. So it leads me to believe that man lived by some unknown rule or rules before man began creating false gods and religions to control their peoples and create their kingdoms ?

Bill

[neophyte]

man began creating false gods

with all due respect, what makes others' deities "false", and yours "true"? are the false ones false because they aren't the one you fancy? how does this all work?

[BlueStreak]

with all due respect, what makes others' deities "false", and yours "true"? are the false ones false because they aren't the one you fancy? how does this all work?

Excellent question.

I await the astute and scholarly answer.:rolleyes:

Dave

[BlueStreak]

No Pete,

One my greatest disappointments was finding that the oldest original manuscripts only existed in the Vatican, and in small pieces, how convenient. And only special personal within the Vatican archives division could view the small pieces. Ounce I learned that, I became even more suspicious of the Catholic Church. One would think that documents such as these, while being 200+ years old at the time of their writing, after the death of Christ, would have been better cared fore. And even the translations of these document into Latin, were restricted ! Why such great secrecy ????

So without even 200 year old data, the best translation available is the German Gootenberg translation. Which was used in the Jehovah Witness Bible translation.

About my search, I believe I answered that in a previous post ? However I believe in God as our supreme creator, but do not believe in Man or Man's created Religions !

As it is printed in the Bible, The blind and the leaders of the blind shall both fall into the Pit ! So I intend to go it on my own volition, and should I fall into the pit, I will only have myself to blame, and not because I blindly followed a charlatan, or false profit !

Bill
So, you have stopped chasing fairytales and realized they are all full of crap?

Dave

[Big_Bill]

with all due respect, what makes others' deities "false", and yours "true"? are the false ones false because they aren't the one you fancy? how does this all work?

I'm sorry neophyte,

I didn't mean to attack you, I didn't know that anyone still worshipped any of these ancient Gods any longer. But you are correct, all of those that worshipped these ancient gods believed they worshiped God, except those that worshipped more than one god.

Which of the 37,000 Ancient God's do You worship ?

Bill

[Big_Bill]

Perhaps if we return to the point of this post ?

Has anyone here looked into the total Historical Origins of your Religion ?

I know what I have found, and I have shared it with you. Let's hear what you have learned ?

Bill

[finnbow]

Perhaps if we return to the point of this post ?

Has anyone here looked into the total Historical Origins of your Religion ?

I know what I have found, and I have shared it with you. Let's hear what you have learned ?

Bill

Does Agnosticism have a history?

[painter]

Perhaps if we return to the point of this post ?

Has anyone here looked into the total Historical Origins of your Religion ?

I know what I have found, and I have shared it with you. Let's hear what you have learned ?

Bill

Errr...no. It is what it is.

[neophyte]

I'm sorry neophyte,

I didn't mean to attack you, I didn't know that anyone still worshipped any of these ancient Gods any longer. But you are correct, all of those that worshipped these ancient gods believed they worshiped God, except those that worshipped more than one god.

Which of the 37,000 Ancient God's do You worship ?

Bill

no offense taken here, but thanks for the gesture. The whole god thing is lost on me, so I have no ax of that kind to grind whatsoever. Guess I just don't have those circuits. I was asking an honest question, nothing more.

[Charles]

Does Agnosticism have a history?

Probably, but no one cares.

How can you pick an argument with someone who's only response is "Hell if I know"?

Chas

[Big_Bill]

I was hoping that this thread would be a show and tell of modern religions.

And I am surprised that only one member here has looked into his or her religion.

If solipsism was true, I surely would have have imagined a more cooperative group.

My beliefs are not important at all, unless they stimulate someone that questions the status quo, and begins to look for answers to find truth,

Bill

[Charles]

I was hoping that this thread would be a show and tell of modern religions.

And I am surprised that only one member here has looked into his or her religion.

If solipsism was true, I surely would have have imagined a more cooperative group.

My beliefs are not important at all, unless they stimulate someone that questions the status quo, and begins to look for answers to find truth,

Bill

My apologizes if I've pissed on your thread, but...

it's probably the best you can expect from this particular peanut gallery.

Chas

[d-ray657]

I was hoping that this thread would be a show and tell of modern religions.

And I am surprised that only one member here has looked into his or her religion.

If solipsism was true, I surely would have have imagined a more cooperative group.

My beliefs are not important at all, unless they stimulate someone that questions the status quo, and begins to look for answers to find truth,

Bill

Actually, if you look at the urgency of your tone, one might conclude that you are proselytizing a belief in skepticism. Please don't consider that a slam, but an observation.

BTW, I thought I had a case of solipsism once, but it turned out that it was all in my head. :D

Regards,

D-Ray

[Big_Bill]

Actually, if you look at the urgency of your tone, one might conclude that you are proselytizing a belief in skepticism. Please don't consider that a slam, but an observation.

Regards,

D-Ray

I'm sorry if you perceived my post as promoting skepticism among believers.

My intent was to see who researched their religions foundations, and who just followed with no interest in its origin.

Being a very curious person by nature, many questions attract my attention, and I try to find the answers. Some, like religion are difficult or impossible to find. But that does not satisfy my mind, and like the Energiser Bunny, it just keeps on going, and going ?

By the way, I found your answer in post #4 very touching !

Thank you,
Bill

[finnbow]

How does one research mythology anyway?

FWIW, I spent a couple of weeks in Israel and traveled to Nazareth, Bethlehem and Jerusalem and walked the Via Dolorosa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_Dolorosa). It did nothing to assuage my skepticism about Christianity (or Judaism & Islam, for that matter).

[BlueStreak]

Kind of hard to find the Historical Origins of something that doesn't exist.

I have posted my theory as to where the origins of most religions lay;

In the imaginations of scheming politicians, intoxicated storytellers and little kids.

Dave

[BlueStreak]

Probably, but no one cares.

How can you pick an argument with someone who's only response is "Hell if I know"?

Chas

Bingo! We have a winner! Give that man a Kewpie Doll!

Dave

[Big_Bill]

How does one research mythology anyway?

FWIW, I spent a couple of weeks in Israel and traveled to Nazareth, Bethlehem and Jerusalem and walked the Via Dolorosa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_Dolorosa). It did nothing to assuage my skepticism about Christianity (or Judaism & Islam, for that matter).


Although the Catholic Church and I have never been able to play well with one another, upon visiting St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York city, I had a feeling that I can not describe, one of majesty, or perhaps a feeling that God doweled there. It was a feeling that I have never felt anywhere else that I have visited ?

I believe that God can be anywhere, especially where good people congregate to praise him. Perhaps it was just the incense ?

Bill

[Big_Bill]

How does one research mythology anyway?

FWIW, I spent a couple of weeks in Israel and traveled to Nazareth, Bethlehem and Jerusalem and walked the Via Dolorosa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_Dolorosa). It did nothing to assuage my skepticism about Christianity (or Judaism & Islam, for that matter).


Because its there ?

Bill

[Big_Bill]

Kind of hard to find the Historical Origins of something that doesn't exist.

I have posted my theory as to where the origins of most religions lay;

In the imaginations of scheming politicians, intoxicated storytellers and little kids.

Dave


Not quiet as touching, but honest !

VERY INTERESTING !

Bill

[finnbow]

Although the Catholic Church and I have never been able to play well with one another, upon visiting St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York city, I had a feeling that I can not describe, one of majesty, or perhaps a feeling that God doweled there. It was a feeling that I have never felt anywhere else that I have visited ?

I believe that God can be anywhere, especially where good people congregate to praise him. Perhaps it was just the incense ?

Bill

Go to the the Vatican for a thorough look at the wealth accumulated by the Catholic Church over the ages. The Vatican Museum is perhaps the most opulent collection of valuable treasures anywhere in the world. It's mind-blowingly beautiful and almost nauseating at the same time.

[Big_Bill]

Does Agnosticism have a history?

YES !

Thomas Henry Huxley, an English biologist, coined the word agnostic in 1869.[3] However, earlier thinkers and written works have promoted agnostic points of view. They include Protagoras, a 5th-century BCE Greek philosopher,[4] and the Nasadiya Sukta creation myth in the Rig Veda, an ancient Sanskrit text.[5] Since Huxley coined the term, many other thinkers have written extensively about agnosticism.

Everything with the exception of God has an origion !

Now wether or not you can find an accurate record of it ?

Bill

[d-ray657]

I'm sorry if you perceived my post as promoting skepticism among believers.

My intent was to see who researched their religions foundations, and who just followed with no interest in its origin.

Being a very curious person by nature, many questions attract my attention, and I try to find the answers. Some, like religion are difficult or impossible to find. But that does not satisfy my mind, and like the Energiser Bunny, it just keeps on going, and going ?

By the way, I found your answer in post #4 very touching !

Thank you,
Bill

I have no problem at all with your inquiry - that's what we're here (at PC) for. A better way to phrase my comment is that I noted a touch of irony in that you approach your questioning of religion with something akin to religious fervor. That is not a bad thing. I appreciate anyone who has passion for any area of life - be it learning or whatever.

Regards,

D-Ray

[Big_Bill]

Go to the the Vatican for a thorough look at the wealth accumulated by the Catholic Church over the ages. The Vatican Museum is perhaps the most opulent collection of valuable treasures anywhere in the world. It's mind-blowingly beautiful and almost nauseating at the same time.


Well finnbow,

I felt this feeling as I entered the doors of St. Patrick's Cathedral, before that I was thinking that St. Patrick's Cathedral was an beautiful example of man's edifice to man. Impressed, but not religiously ?

I would like to see the many treasures in the Vatican Vaults ! Those that only a few, with special permission can see !

:) Bill

[Rex E.]

I would like to see the many treasures in the Vatican Vaults ! Those that only a few, with special permission can see !

:) Bill

Wouldn't it be great to see all those spoils of all the folks the Catholics have been killing in the name of Jesus for thousands of years now. The crusades (hell, they killed their own Jesuits here as they were far to smart and had far to much treasure). The "missionary work" in South and Central America (ever seen those Catholic churches where almost the whole thing is gold plated, thanks South and Central America) and the most recent, all that Jew gold and treasure they took from Hitler and his cronies to help smuggle them out to....South or Central America so they didn't have to pay for their crimes (cuz Catholics hate Jews also as best I can tell from history)

What a wonderful example of the folks who "started it all" for so many.......:rolleyes:

[merrylander]

I was hoping that this thread would be a show and tell of modern religions.

And I am surprised that only one member here has looked into his or her religion.

If solipsism was true, I surely would have have imagined a more cooperative group.

My beliefs are not important at all, unless they stimulate someone that questions the status quo, and begins to look for answers to find truth,

Bill


I think thhat I have expressed our position, whether it convinces anyone to follow our path is of absolutely no concern to us, we would much rather everyone choose their own path. BTW that is not the royal we, simply that Florence agrees with my view.

[merrylander]

Well finnbow,

I felt this feeling as I entered the doors of St. Patrick's Cathedral, before that I was thinking that St. Patrick's Cathedral was an beautiful example of man's edifice to man. Impressed, but not religiously ?

I would like to see the many treasures in the Vatican Vaults ! Those that only a few, with special permission can see !

:) Bill

You really should stop in at St. Paul's London and take the tour.

The poor Vatican, must be close to broke now that the traffic in 'indulgences" has dried up.:rolleyes:

[piece-itpete]

Go to the the Vatican for a thorough look at the wealth accumulated by the Catholic Church over the ages. The Vatican Museum is perhaps the most opulent collection of valuable treasures anywhere in the world. It's mind-blowingly beautiful and almost nauseating at the same time.

I've felt the same way about them at times, and often feel that veneration of the Pope borders on idolatry, particularly in his 1/2 tv ads, er, shows. I also once spoke to a guy, a dedicated atheist, who was nevertheless deeply involved in the Catholic Church - he loved the legalese aspect and believed it was good for humanity. Much good has come from them too though.

Looking into history of just about anything, which I love, is both interesting and something of a fools game. The 'truth' is a multifaceted jewel and usually not fully (or even partially) understood even by people living through it, not even the key players. Add the emotional content and willful manipulation that follows powerful topics like religion or politics, and how much information is lost or tossed over the years, and only God knows (:)) what really happened most of the time.

I don't want to wander OT but love this stuff :) A great example of the above I came across recently: I've been watching various shows on the horrible events that unfolded in Japan on 3/11. One particular aspect, a village that had walls built, supposedly tsunami proof, got flooded.

I saw two shows on this, one done by a Japanese station, one by an American outfit (both on PBS a couple days apart).

I'm not sure which said which, but I think it was the American show that said it failed because of an overall 5 foot surge that took place just before the wave hit. The other show said it was because the entire region dropped 5 feet, the land lowered 5 feet during the quake. Both spoke with certainty.

Will it be sorted out? Probably. But it doesn't matter. Neither show mentioned the other. So unless whatever they decide is tagged onto every single previous mention of it (never happen), a future researcher could come across one or the other 'known' reasons and state with a false sense of certainty that the (wrong) thing was responsible, with footnotes to credible sources to 'prove' it.

Nice huh?

Bill I realise you were somewhat tongue in cheek with post 35, but it's certainly a comic view from a personal belief ;)

Pete

[Twodogs]

Wouldn't it be great to see all those spoils of all the folks the Catholics have been killing in the name of Jesus for thousands of years now. The crusades (hell, they killed their own Jesuits here as they were far to smart and had far to much treasure). The "missionary work" in South and Central America (ever seen those Catholic churches where almost the whole thing is gold plated, thanks South and Central America) and the most recent, all that Jew gold and treasure they took from Hitler and his cronies to help smuggle them out to....South or Central America so they didn't have to pay for their crimes (cuz Catholics hate Jews also as best I can tell from history)

What a wonderful example of the folks who "started it all" for so many.......:rolleyes:


The main Arch Diocese building / church in KC has a gold roof, yes, real gold. It's a pretty awesome sight, but I've never attended mass there. There are lots of stunning catholic Churches in this area. We just got a new one in Gardner a few years ago. I do tons of work in Catholic Churches in KC. They all trust me, so I never have to compete with other bidders. They have actually offered me a job once and were willing to pay all the union crap that comes with me. I may do some engineering type work for them after I retire in 4 years (I hope).:)

[Rex E.]

The main Arch Diocese building / church in KC has a gold roof, yes, real gold. It's a pretty awesome sight, but I've never attended mass there. There are lots of stunning catholic Churches in this area. We just got a new one in Gardner a few years ago. I do tons of work in Catholic Churches in KC. They all trust me, so I never have to compete with other bidders. They have actually offered me a job once and were willing to pay all the union crap that comes with me. I may do some engineering type work for them after I retire in 4 years (I hope).:)

Need some help? ;)

I'd be more than pleased to take all the catholic cash I could from them.... :) Heck, I might even go drop in on the LDS folks and pay some tithe with that catholic loot...

[Charles]

The main Arch Diocese building / church in KC has a gold roof, yes, real gold. It's a pretty awesome sight, but I've never attended mass there. There are lots of stunning catholic Churches in this area. We just got a new one in Gardner a few years ago. I do tons of work in Catholic Churches in KC. They all trust me, so I never have to compete with other bidders. They have actually offered me a job once and were willing to pay all the union crap that comes with me. I may do some engineering type work for them after I retire in 4 years (I hope).:)

A gold roof, you say.........

do you reckon I could reach it with my 40, or should I just lease a snorkel lift???

Chas

[Zeke]

1. There either is or is not a God.

If there's no God, nothing matters.

2. God either does or does not love us.

If God doesn't love us, nothing matters.

3. I choose to believe there is a God who loves us.

But I don't pretend to understand a damned thing.

Too simplistic?

[merrylander]

1. There either is or is not a God.

If there's no God, nothing matters.

2. God either does or does not love us.

If God doesn't love us, nothing matters.

3. I choose to believe there is a God who loves us.

But I don't pretend to understand a damned thing.

Too simplistic?

Works for me.

[Zeke]

The main Arch Diocese building / church in KC has a gold roof, yes, real gold.

Locals refer to it as the "Jesus slide" because it is inferred that such is the place where the return of Christ will occur.

[note] For those who have not seen it, it is tall, pointed, twists, and extends down from the heavens like a golden water slide...

[Charles]

1. There either is or is not a God.

If there's no God, nothing matters.

2. God either does or does not love us.

If God doesn't love us, nothing matters.

3. I choose to believe there is a God who loves us.

But I don't pretend to understand a damned thing.

Too simplistic?

I always liked the way you Injuns did things. You had a "Great Spirit" and your preacher was some wild man who stayed loaded on peyote.

No one felt expected to understand it, they just accepted it. And you didn't have to spend a bunch of money building a church so the shaman had a place to pass out.

Chas

[Big_Bill]

1. There either is or is not a God.

If there's no God, nothing matters.

2. God either does or does not love us.

If God doesn't love us, nothing matters.

3. I choose to believe there is a God who loves us.

But I don't pretend to understand a damned thing.

Too simplistic?

Not too Simplistic at all !

It is the BEST ANSWER I have ever heard, you eloquent speaker you :)

There is no definitive truth in this subject and I learned that years ago. It can only be the personal desire of each individual to pick and choose how they wish to believe, or not !

But should I die before you gentleman, I will send a post from wherever, and let you all know awaits you :)

Bill

[d-ray657]

1. There either is or is not a God.

If there's no God, nothing matters.

2. God either does or does not love us.

If God doesn't love us, nothing matters.

3. I choose to believe there is a God who loves us.

But I don't pretend to understand a damned thing.

Too simplistic?

Not too Simplistic at all !

It is the BEST ANSWER I have ever heard, you eloquent speaker you :)

There is no definitive truth in this subject and I learned that years ago. It can only be the personal desire of each individual to pick and choose how they wish to believe, or not !

But should I die before you gentleman, I will send a post from wherever, and let you all know awaits you :)

Bill

Assuming we have the same itinerary.:D

Regards,

D-Ray

[merrylander]

But should I die before you gentleman, I will send a post from wherever, and let you all know awaits you :)

Bill

You do that.:)

[BlueStreak]

1. There either is or is not a God.

If there's no God, nothing matters.

2. God either does or does not love us.

If God doesn't love us, nothing matters.

3. I choose to believe there is a God who loves us.

But I don't pretend to understand a damned thing.

Too simplistic?

Not too Simplistic at all !

It is the BEST ANSWER I have ever heard, you eloquent speaker you :)

There is no definitive truth in this subject and I learned that years ago. It can only be the personal desire of each individual to pick and choose how they wish to believe, or not !

But should I die before you gentleman, I will send a post from wherever, and let you all know awaits you :)

Bill

Correct!

So when is your party going to stop with all of it's "Christian Nation" blather, pandering to pushy prosletizing evangelicals and attempting to push religion in the public schools?

Dave

[neophyte]

If there's no God, nothing matters.

If God doesn't love us, nothing matters.

please elaborate

[BlueStreak]

1. There either is or is not a God.

If there's no God, nothing matters.

2. God either does or does not love us.

If God doesn't love us, nothing matters.

3. I choose to believe there is a God who loves us.

But I don't pretend to understand a damned thing.

Too simplistic?

please elaborate

Really. I had refrained from comment, because I really like Zeke and respect his opinions.

However, I have always found that a little intelligence and common sense was sufficient to keep me out of trouble. I've always thought that people who NEED the threat of eternal damnation to keep them in line must be a little soft in the head to begin with.

After all, A stupid thing is a stupid thing, whether your a believer, or not. Unless you're stupid. Are ya feelin' me?

Dave

[Big_Bill]

You do that.:)


I sure will try merrylander :) Inquiring minds need to know !

Bill

[Big_Bill]

Correct!

So when is your party going to stop with all of it's "Christian Nation" blather, pandering to pushy proselytizing evangelicals and attempting to push religion in the public schools?

Dave


Well Blue, can I call you Blue ?

My search began with Christianity, but has traveled the worlds religions.

Some are more interesting, some are very negative toward other religions but most all of those that I have reviewed are egocentric and hypocritical of their beliefs. So I guess I will remain in my present congregation, for now ?

Paster Tall William Phd., DDT, IDO.,NTK., NOW.,EIA.,THR (:))

[BlueStreak]

Well Blue, can I call you Blue ?

My search began with Christianity, but has traveled the worlds religions.

Some are more interesting, some are very negative toward other religions but most all of those that I have reviewed are egocentric and hypocritical of their beliefs. So I guess I will remain in my present congregation, for now ?

Paster Tall William Phd., DDT, IDO.,NTK., NOW.,EIA.,THR (:))

Blue is fine.

I was quite literally force-fed Christianity by my psychotic mother. The only religion I ever took an interest in voluntarily was Bhuddism. Which drove her to distraction in the summer of 2002. She thought it was the end of all things sacred and holy to find a copy of "I Ching" in my car. She told me I made her "sick" for looking outside her faith. I nearly reminded her that I stopped giving a damn what she thought when I was 10.

But, I couldn't do that to Pops. Poor guy never would have heard the end of it.

Dave

[merrylander]

Really. I had refrained from comment, because I really like Zeke and respect his opinions.

However, I have always found that a little intelligence and common sense was sufficient to keep me out of trouble. I've always thought that people who NEED the threat of eternal damnation to keep them in line must be a little soft in the head to begin with.

After all, A stupid thing is a stupid thing, whether your a believer, or not. Unless you're stupid. Are ya feelin' me?

Dave

Whoa Dave, I never thought about eternal damnation as a reason for being compassionate. I guess I have looked at it in the way a Franciscan Monk spoke in one sermon (yes we did attend church for a while). He said we speak of "God, The Father" and many of you are fathers. So do your children not on occasion do things that make you weep, but you do not cease to love them. How then should our heavenly Father, who is so much better then we are, stop loving us.

Well that I hope captures the gist of his sermon; another thing that governs my actions. When Jesus was asked which are the greatest Commandments He responded " . . .and the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." I guess I was in my forties when it dawned on me that if I did not love myself, then I could not possibly love my neighbour, or anyone else for that matter. Up until that point I had been my greatest critic, and not necessarily a kind critic. Now, although I see my faults, I also see my good qualities and tend to concentrate on the latter and seek to correct the former.

But that is just me and may not necessaily work for others.

There was a quotation that the late King George VI used in his New Years message to the Commonwealth;

"I said to the man who stood at the door to the New Year, give me a lamp for the way is dark and I know not the path. He said to me, Go forth and put your hand into the hand of God, that shall be better unto you than any known way or path." Sorry, that's from memory so I may not have it right, it has been a goodly number of years.

[Charles]

Whoa Dave, I never thought about eternal damnation as a reason for being compassionate. I guess I have looked at it in the way a Franciscan Monk spoke in one sermon (yes we did attend church for a while). He said we speak of "God, The Father" and many of you are fathers. So do your children not on occasion do things that make you weep, but you do not cease to love them. How then should our heavenly Father, who is so much better then we are, stop loving us.

Well that I hope captures the gist of his sermon; another thing that governs my actions. When Jesus was asked which are the greatest Commandments He responded " . . .and the second is like unto it, thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." I guess I was in my forties when it dawned on me that if I did not love myself, then I could not possibly love my neighbour, or anyone else for that matter. Up until that point I had been my greatest critic, and not necessarily a kind critic. Now, although I see my faults, I also see my good qualities and tend to concentrate on the latter and seek to correct the former.

But that is just me and may not necessaily work for others.

There was a quotation that the late King George VI used in his New Years message to the Commonwealth;

"I said to the man who stood at the door to the New Year, give me a lamp for the way is dark and I know not the path. He said to me, Go forth and put your hand into the hand of God, that shall be better unto you than any known way or path." Sorry, that's from memory so I may not have it right, it has been a goodly number of years.

Rob, I believe you've put it in a nutshell.

You don't ask "God" to forgive your transgressions, you ask yourself to forgive your transgressions. But it only works if you're sincere enough with yourself to realize that this isn't a career opportunity.

Chas

[Twodogs]

Most of my praying is of the foxhole variety. I think the Good Lord is ok with that though. I reckon he knows if you're trying or not, and what's really in every man's heart.


Now, let us raise the Black Flag and get this Chinese debt thing done and over with.

[BlueStreak]

"I was quite literally force-fed Christianity by my psychotic mother. The only religion I ever took an interest in voluntarily was Bhuddism. Which drove her to distraction in the summer of 2002. She thought it was the end of all things sacred and holy to find a copy of "I Ching" in my car. She told me I made her "sick" for looking outside her faith. I nearly reminded her that I stopped giving a damn what she thought when I was 10.

But, I couldn't do that to Pops. Poor guy never would have heard the end of it.

Dave"

What compassion?:confused: I was beaten. Whipped with an extension cord at the age of ten. "God" didn't seem to give a shit. Sorry, but that's what's real to me.

Dave

[BlueStreak]

Time for me to bow out for a while. At least out of this thread. It's taking me places I don't care to visit.

Dave

[Charles]

"I was quite literally force-fed Christianity by my psychotic mother. The only religion I ever took an interest in voluntarily was Bhuddism. Which drove her to distraction in the summer of 2002. She thought it was the end of all things sacred and holy to find a copy of "I Ching" in my car. She told me I made her "sick" for looking outside her faith. I nearly reminded her that I stopped giving a damn what she thought when I was 10.

But, I couldn't do that to Pops. Poor guy never would have heard the end of it.

Dave"

What compassion?:confused: I was beaten. Whipped with an extension cord at the age of ten. "God" didn't seem to give a shit. Sorry, but that's what's real to me.

Dave

Well, I can see why you're kinda sour on religion.

I just had to sit there for years, watching the clock run backwards, while the preacher managed to put everyone else to sleep other than myself.

They even tried to hypnotize once, it order to lead me to the light.

Now that was a waste of time.

The best I remember, my folks never tried to beat religion into me. Everything else, but not religion. And my Dad, as much as I love him, would still be kicking my ass if I hadn't given him an uppercut followed by a cross.

Chas

[painter]

Time for me to bow out for a while. At least out of this thread. It's taking me places I don't care to visit.

Dave


I understand........................................ ......................................

[BlueStreak]

Well, I can see why you're kinda sour on religion.

I just had to sit there for years, watching the clock run backwards, while the preacher managed to put everyone else to sleep other than myself.

They even tried to hypnotize once, it order to lead me to the light.

Now that was a waste of time.

The best I remember, my folks never tried to beat religion into me. Everything else, but not religion. And my Dad, as much as I love him, would still be kicking my ass if I hadn't given him an uppercut followed by a cross.

Chas

Not "sour on religion", sour on fanaticism and the desire of some to press their beliefs on others, either directly or through some socio-political fiat.

Show up on my doorstep trying to make me feel un-American, or ashamed of myself for not sharing your religious beliefs-----and you'll end up running from me.

And that's a promise.

Dave

[BlueStreak]

I understand........................................ ......................................

Thank you.

Dave

[merrylander]

Florence would understand for reasons I won't go into.

[piece-itpete]

My wife too would understand.

...

After all, A stupid thing is a stupid thing, whether your a believer, or not. Unless you're stupid. Are ya feelin' me?

Dave

On the face of it I agree. But 'stupid' changes over the years.

There was a time in Roman history where, in order to get married, the woman had to prostitute herself at the temple. No john, no marriage.

There was a time in Spartan history where, once a young man graduated their incredible training, he was required to take an older soldier as a sexual partner.

And slavery right here not long ago.

During those times most would've said it was the right thing...

Pete

[Zeke]

please elaborate

Will try, tonight.

But, in a nutshell: If there's nothing beyond this life, what I do IN this life is essentially meaningless.

Again, perhaps simplistic...

[painter]

Will try, tonight.

But, in a nutshell: If there's nothing beyond this life, what I do IN this life is essentially meaningless.

Again, perhaps simplistic...

Only problem is...you have to die to find out! :)

[BlueStreak]

Will try, tonight.

But, in a nutshell: If there's nothing beyond this life, what I do IN this life is essentially meaningless.

Again, perhaps simplistic...

See, but that's the thing. Thing is, I don't see how the impact you male in this life can be meaningless, regardless of whether or not there is an afterlife. What you do in this life still impacts other people and the world around you. And depending on the magnitude of your accomplishments, that may carry far into the future.

Besides, as previously stated, spirituality is not my problem. Organized religion, with all of it's hullabaloo and hokus-pokus, and the way it is often (mis)used to manipulate and control people is.

I often think of all of the friends/family/pets I've lost.
I really would like to be with them again, someday.

Yes, mother too, of course.

Dave

[Charles]

Hell fellers, I'm just doing my time, trying not to cause too much trouble, and just waiting for the big man to hand me my final parole papers.

I don't even want a tombstone out of the deal. The next guy is going to have enough troubles without having to mow around the damn thing.

Chas

[Big_Bill]

So you wander about the hear after ?

The reason most all religions have such a hold on people !

At one time, if you did not tough the mark of the religion, you were excommunicated, shunned by all of that religion everywhere, Doomed to loneliness and death, as no one would have anything to do with you. No food, shelter or safety within the group. Hell, the people around you might just stone you to prove their loyalty to the church.

When the people were not to worried aboult excommunication, the church had to come up with something stronger, your immortal soul, and where it was going for eternity. Now that is something to keep your attention.

So where do you think your "soul" will go after passing ???? Reincarnation ? perhaps a bug !

Bill

[Zeke]

See, but that's the thing. Thing is, I don't see how the impact you male in this life can be meaningless, regardless of whether or not there is an afterlife. What you do in this life still impacts other people and the world around you. And depending on the magnitude of your accomplishments, that may carry far into the future.

Until they die? :confused:

No, I am not trying to be morbid.

But, if we don't exist forever, we needn't exist as all: anything short of infinity may as well be the blink of an eye.

[BlueStreak]

So you wander about the hear after ?

The reason most all religions have such a hold on people !

At one time, if you did not tough the mark of the religion, you were excommunicated, shunned by all of that religion everywhere, Doomed to loneliness and death, as no one would have anything to do with you. No food, shelter or safety within the group. Hell, the people around you might just stone you to prove their loyalty to the church.

When the people were not to worried aboult excommunication, the church had to come up with something stronger, your immortal soul, and where it was going for eternity. Now that is something to keep your attention.

So where do you think your "soul" will go after passing ???? Reincarnation ? perhaps a bug !

Bill

"Threaten to beat a man, he might not submit. Wounds heal.
Threaten to jail him and he has the hope for escape or rescue.
You can even threaten to kill a man and he still might not cave, if he thinks reward awaits him in heaven. Convince him that noncompliance results in eternal damnation and you have left him no way out."

---E.A. Read Sr., My father.

[finnbow]

So where do you think your "soul" will go after passing ???? Reincarnation ? perhaps a bug !

Bill

To answer your question, one must buy into the concept of a soul, at least the religious construct thereof. I'm not sure I do.

[painter]

"Threaten to beat a man, he might not submit. Wounds heal.
Threaten to jail him and he has the hope for escape or rescue.
You can even threaten to kill a man and he still might not cave, if he thinks reward awaits him in heaven. Convince him that noncompliance results in eternal damnation and you have left him no way out."

---E.A. Read Sr., My father.

Your father had great insight to the male psyche.

Everybody wants to go to heaven...but nobody wants to die to get there. :)

[BlueStreak]

So where do you think your "soul" will go after passing ???? Reincarnation ? perhaps a bug !

Bill

I want to come back as a Western Electric 300b plugged into the universes sweetest SET amp and horns the size of Orion. Just feed me clean electrons and let me sing for all eternity, making angels dance and deities sigh.

Dave

[Zeke]

To answer your question, one must buy into the concept of a soul, at least the religious construct thereof. I'm not sure I do.

Do you believe that energy can be destroyed?

Or, does it just become another form of energy?

[BlueStreak]

Do you believe that energy can be destroyed?

Or, does it just become another form of energy?

I've contemplated that at some length. The electrical impulses that carry brainwaves, neurosynapsis, memory storage and such. Is it all simply disappated as heat, is it grounded to earth or what?

When the life leaves a dead body, where does it go?

Dave

[BlueStreak]

Your father had great insight to the male psyche.

Everybody wants to go to heaven...but nobody wants to die to get there. :)

You can ask anyone who knew him. He was way smarter than you might expect for a guy who made his living turning a wrench. And you'd never hear anyone utter a disparaging word either. The man worked his entire life, from age 14 until he turned 68 supporting other people. When he died all he had of his own personal belongings was $2,600 in a savings account, an old car and closet full of clothes. The rest went to taking care of us and Mom.

Dave

[finnbow]

Do you believe that energy can be destroyed?

Or, does it just become another form of energy?

When the life leaves a dead body, where does it go?

Dave

I can't pretend to know. Buying into Christianity's (or any other organized religion's) view on what occurs after death doesn't get one any closer to actually knowing IMHO.

[BlueStreak]

I can't pretend to know. Buying into Christianity's (or any other organized religion's) view on what occurs after death doesn't get one any closer to actually knowing IMHO.

Well, aint that the truth? I was looking for something a little more scientific than, "It goes to heaven.", or "The Lord works in mysterious ways."..........:rolleyes:

Dave

[hillbilly]

Well, aint that the truth? I was looking for something a little more scientific than, "It goes to heaven.", or "The Lord works in mysterious ways."..........:rolleyes:

Dave


Thats the confusing part Dave. It's all a mystery. Theres no proof that it does, and there is no proof that it does not. We'll never truly know if it does or doesn't until we're dead, but that only holds true if it does. See, it is confusing.

[Big_Bill]

Your father had great insight to the male psyche.

Everybody wants to go to heaven...but nobody wants to die to get there. :)


Now there is a GREAT point painter,

All of the religious people that I have known are the biggest crybabies when they have a family member die ?

These are the same people that tell you, just how happy you should be that your loved one is now with God, but when the shoe is on the other foot, are crying like a little girl.

And when their in the hospital, they want the doctors to SAVE THEM, PLLLEEEESSSSEEE. Just what happened to; how great heaven will be, and all our troubles will be over ???

Would you call him and Idiot, Hypocrite or a Fool ?

Bill

[BlueStreak]

It's not death that frightens me, it's pointless to be frightened of the inevitable.
But, the process of dying and the slow, horrible ways that people sometimes die...THAT frightens me.

Dave

[merrylander]

People cry at funerals not for the dead but for themselves because they did not want to be deprived of that person's presence. You see few tears at the funeral of one who had been ill and in pain for a number of years.

The soul? Well here is something to ponder, Dr. Wilder Penfield, the Canadian neuro surgeon was operating on a patient. The patient's head was immobilised and the skull open. The brain itself has no sensation of pain, Dr. Penfield was setting about to localize a particular area of the brain with an electric probe. He touched one spot and the patient raised his arm. Dr. Penfield asked him why he raised his arm, the response was my arm raised but I did not will it to do so. Does this indicate that there is a consciousness unrelated to thr functions of the brain? You tell me.

[piece-itpete]

...

But, if we don't exist forever, we needn't exist as all: anything short of infinity may as well be the blink of an eye.

Awesome Zeke.

...

Would you call him and Idiot, Hypocrite or a Fool ?

Bill

I'd call them a human being.

Pete

[painter]

Do you believe that energy can be destroyed?

Or, does it just become another form of energy?


When I turn off the lamp I see no remnants of energy. Just saying...:)

[BlueStreak]

When I turn off the lamp I see no remnants of energy. Just saying...:)

As I understand it, the photons impinge on surfaces in their path and dissapate as heat energy. Remaining enegy in the glass and filaments is also dissapated as heat.
Electron flow is interrupted at the switch, but the potential (voltage) is still present at the open switch.

The energy has not been destroyed, it has changed form.

Maybe one of our more scientificly astute members (Bhunter?) would care to comment?

Dave

[Zeke]

The energy has not been destroyed, it has changed form.

Which is sort of how I perceive death...

[Rex E.]

When I turn off the lamp I see no remnants of energy. Just saying...:)

That's called magic ;)

[Rex E.]

Which is sort of how I perceive death...

True. (why is there no thumbsup smilie on here?)

[BlueStreak]

Which is sort of how I perceive death...

Lifeforce dissapated as heat?:p

Dave

[Rex E.]

Lifeforce dissapated as heat?:p

Dave

That actually makes a lot of sense considering we run around 98 degrees when alive and pretty damn frigid when dead.

[JJIII]

That actually makes a lot of sense considering we run around 98 degrees when alive and pretty damn frigid when dead.

I've known a few that were alive and frigid.;)

[piece-itpete]

LMAO!!

Pete

[Big_Bill]

Well guys,

All that I can say is; expect your worse fears, and be prepared for the best outcome.

I look at death as the final adventure. And I try to be the best that I can be, which is not always good enough, just in case there is a hear after. And live my life to the fullest that I can, so that it wont be a total waste if there is nothing.

However I did stay at a Holiday Inn ounce, and I can say that it seems that there is life after death, at least at shift changes.

Bill

[d-ray657]

From time to time I am compelled to be anal retentive about usage: it is "hereafter" not "hear after." I'll now go back to color coding my socks.

Regards,

D-Ray

[Big_Bill]

From time to time I am compelled to be anal retentive about usage: it is "hereafter" not "hear after." I'll now go back to color coding my socks.

Regards,

D-Ray

Sir,

It would depend on just what you are Hear After :) I am hoping for the 72 virgins and tons of ************************...;)

Bill

[merrylander]

Well there must be a God, I just got a call from UBS telling me my TI stock options expire tomorrow. When I said "Yeah, probably still underwater." He said no they have value, so I said sell sell. He said I have another lot maturing in February. Sell those too. About bloody time I got summat out of that bunch.

[BlueStreak]

Sir,

It would depend on just what you are Hear After :) I am hoping for the 72 virgins and tons of ************************...;)

Bill

That would be "Here After".:p

Dave

[painter]

Sir,

It would depend on just what you are Hear After :) I am hoping for the 72 virgins and tons of ************************...;)

Bill


So...could it be that all your religion research is to get you the best deal? :D

[Charles]

From time to time I am compelled to be anal retentive about usage: it is "hereafter" not "hear after." I'll now go back to color coding my socks.

Regards,

D-Ray

What are "socks"?

Chas

[Big_Bill]

So...could it be that all your religion research is to get you the best deal? :D


The Best Deal would be the Truth, if only the Truth could be found !

In all the religions in this world, if you believe the Bible, when Christ returns on that judgement day, he will find only two churches following his commandments, and of these two churches, only one will be faithful..

I am sure that I will never have my TRUTH, but I now have questions that I never even thought of before my quest. And the best answer I can give is;

In the Beginning Man Created God in His Own Image....and saw that it was good.

Besides, what would I do with 72 virgins? One or two might be heaven !

Bill

[d-ray657]

What are "socks"?

Chas

Tubes made out of fabric and closed on one end, which are worn over one's feet, usually under a pair of shoes or boots. This time of year, the fabric will include at least some wool. My AR 93s wear socks too, but they are considerably larger, and not made of wool.

In context, the reference to color-coding of socks was to make light of anal retentive behavior. In retrospect, it was a nonsensical reference, in that socks already have different colors, and thus have no need for color-coding (unless one would want to color-code according to material or use, i.e. boot, athletic, dress and casual socks.)

For now, I think I have exhausted the subject matter of socks. :cool:

Regards,

D-Ray

[JJIII]

Tubes made out of fabric and closed on one end, which are worn over one's feet, usually under a pair of shoes or boots. This time of year, the fabric will include at least some wool. My AR 93s wear socks too, but they are considerably larger, and not made of wool.

In context, the reference to color-coding of socks was to make light of anal retentive behavior. In retrospect, it was a nonsensical reference, in that socks already have different colors, and thus have no need for color-coding (unless one would want to color-code according to material or use, i.e. boot, athletic, dress and casual socks.)

For now, I think I have exhausted the subject matter of socks. :cool:

Regards,

D-Ray

Thank you, Counselor!:)

[Charles]

Tubes made out of fabric and closed on one end, which are worn over one's feet, usually under a pair of shoes or boots. This time of year, the fabric will include at least some wool. My AR 93s wear socks too, but they are considerably larger, and not made of wool.

In context, the reference to color-coding of socks was to make light of anal retentive behavior. In retrospect, it was a nonsensical reference, in that socks already have different colors, and thus have no need for color-coding (unless one would want to color-code according to material or use, i.e. boot, athletic, dress and casual socks.)

For now, I think I have exhausted the subject matter of socks. :cool:

Regards,

D-Ray

Ah Grasshopper, I see that you have at last discovered the meaning of socks.

Chas

[merrylander]

I sometimes wonder where this fascination with virginity came about. Seems kind of unfair that women were given a hymen but men are not equipped with anything similar.

[BlueStreak]

Well guys,

All that I can say is; expect your worse fears, and be prepared for the best outcome.

I look at death as the final adventure. And I try to be the best that I can be, which is not always good enough, just in case there is a hear after. And live my life to the fullest that I can, so that it wont be a total waste if there is nothing.

However I did stay at a Holiday Inn ounce, and I can say that it seems that there is life after death, at least at shift changes.

Bill

I look at death as falling into a deep sleep, very deep, and never waking up.

Which actually sounds pretty good, to tell the truth.:)

Dave

[Zeke]

I look at death as falling into a deep sleep, very deep, and never waking up.

Which actually sounds pretty good, to tell the truth.:)

Dave

Not being argumentative but this is my overall point, if we aren't eternal in some way.

If I'm not going to "wake up," what was the point in ever being awake? :confused:

If "this" is all there is, it's pretty pointless and a cosmic joke. :mad:

[painter]

The Best Deal would be the Truth, if only the Truth could be found !

In all the religions in this world, if you believe the Bible, when Christ returns on that judgement day, he will find only two churches following his commandments, and of these two churches, only one will be faithful..

I am sure that I will never have my TRUTH, but I now have questions that I never even thought of before my quest. And the best answer I can give is;

In the Beginning Man Created God in His Own Image....and saw that it was good.

Besides, what would I do with 72 virgins? One or two might be heaven !

Bill


My dear Bill ... one size of anything does not fit everyone. Whether it be religion, music, cars...etc. So perhaps the answer is... to pick and choose what makes us comfortable. The mysteries are many when it comes to religion. Faith is what determines our truths. ;)

[BlueStreak]

Not being argumentative but this is my overall point, if we aren't eternal in some way.

If I'm not going to "wake up," what was the point in ever being awake? :confused:

If "this" is all there is, it's pretty pointless and a cosmic joke. :mad:

My astute and scholarly reply;

Hell if I know.

Dave

[BlueStreak]

My dear Bill ... one size of anything does not fit everyone. Whether it be religion, music, cars...etc. So perhaps the answer is... to pick and choose what makes us comfortable. The mysteries are many when it comes to religion. Faith is what determines our truths. ;)

Oh, now Painter...There you go, thinking for yourself, rather than following the program set forth by the proponents of an American theocracy. Tsk, tsk, tsk......:p

Dave

[Big_Bill]

I sometimes wonder where this fascination with virginity came about. Seems kind of unfair that women were given a hymen but men are not equipped with anything similar.


Merry,

The foreskin may have been our hymen, but most of us had it cut off at birth.

Besides, if we had a hymen, it certainly would be gone before we were old enough for show and tell.

Besides, were men, and men need to know this stuff.

[merrylander]

Merry,

The foreskin may have been our hymen, but most of us had it cut off at birth.

Besides, if we had a hymen, it certainly would be gone before we were old enough for show and tell.

Besides, were men, and men need to know this stuff.

Really? It might be better for everyone if young men were taught by an older women, and young women by an older man. The majority of men make lousy lovers, at least that is what several women have told me.:D

[Charles]

My astute and scholarly reply;

Hell if I know.

Dave

Well, Dr. Blue, I concur with your analysis, but with the addendum that I don't really care.

I've enough fish to fry in this world without concerning myself about the second. I'll deal with it if and when I get there.

Chas

[BlueStreak]

Well, Dr. Blue, I concur with your analysis, but with the addendum that I don't really care.

I've enough fish to fry in this world without concerning myself about the second. I'll deal with it if and when I get there.

Chas

We appear to be of the same mind in this regard.

Dave

[piece-itpete]

2 churches? You referring to Revelation? The were examples. The followers of Islam wiped those churches off the map.

....

If "this" is all there is, it's pretty pointless and a cosmic joke. :mad:

With no one to laugh!

Pete

[noonereal]

I was hoping that this thread would be a show and tell of modern religions.

And I am surprised that only one member here has looked into his or her religion.

If solipsism was true, I surely would have have imagined a more cooperative group.

My beliefs are not important at all, unless they stimulate someone that questions the status quo, and begins to look for answers to find truth,

Bill

Looking at your avatar, I do wonder if you have ever fallen off that high horse you sit on.

[BlueStreak]

Looking at your avatar, I do wonder if you have ever fallen off that high horse you sit on.

I think the fact that this thread, intended for everyone to show case the depth of their religious beliefs, having pretty much fallen on its face------Says something.

Dave

[piece-itpete]

You want theological debates about meenew-oot-a? :) Our what current humans say about others 2000 years ago?

Besides, it ended up being kinda fun. To quote our favorite philosopher, we's fart smellers.

Pete

[bobabode]

I looked into the history of mine and it scared the bejesus outta me, whole lotta shakin' goin' on.

Like hospitals I try to stay out of churches, just isn't healthy for man nor beast.:)

[JCricket]

Hey folks,
the village idiot has wandered back in, you shoulda changed the locks before I came back.

I read all 19 pageds of this thread and then found out it was kind of old and cold - but dangit I got something to say here.

The question was if anyone had researched the roots of their religion?
I tried. I was catholic.

In a nutshell, catholicism is correct becasue they say it is.

BUT - what I found interesting was HOW christianity became a powerful religion. After readin this thread and not seeing any mention of what I am about to propose, I have to wonder if I am delusional.

Christianity comes from Christ. Is he God? Big question but outside the scope of the OP's question.
Emperor Constatine embraced christianity in the 3rd century. It occured at the same time the bible was put together as "The Book". As you folks are aware, christians were originally feline fodder.
My understanding is that the christians had become enough of a presence that hey could no longer be avoided. By embracing "christianity", he was able to dominate and control it. He used it as a political tool to control the masses.

Hasn't anyone else ever heard this theory???

[BlueStreak]

Hey folks,
the village idiot has wandered back in, you shoulda changed the locks before I came back.

I read all 19 pageds of this thread and then found out it was kind of old and cold - but dangit I got something to say here.

The question was if anyone had researched the roots of their religion?
I tried. I was catholic.

In a nutshell, catholicism is correct becasue they say it is.

BUT - what I found interesting was HOW christianity became a powerful religion. After readin this thread and not seeing any mention of what I am about to propose, I have to wonder if I am delusional.

Christianity comes from Christ. Is he God? Big question but outside the scope of the OP's question.
Emperor Constatine embraced christianity in the 3rd century. It occured at the same time the bible was put together as "The Book". As you folks are aware, christians were originally feline fodder.
My understanding is that the christians had become enough of a presence that hey could no longer be avoided. By embracing "christianity", he was able to dominate and control it. He used it as a political tool to control the masses.

Hasn't anyone else ever heard this theory???

Nothing has changed. Using religious beliefs to sway people is still as common as ever. In my opinion....religion has never been anything but a political tool.

[JCricket]

Nothing has changed. Using religious beliefs to sway people is still as common as ever. In my opinion....religion has never been anything but a political tool.

Agreed, but my point was that Catholicism actual became a church under Constaninople. Before this it was christians. In other words the entire life of the church as an organized religion was born from politics, not from religious beliefs. The religious beliefs were simply the tool used to control the masses.

This is one of hte main reasons I became an angnostic. There is simply no way a church founded on politics but preaching religion can hold an ethical line and provide the truth about "God". It is the ultimate perversion of virtue and ethics.

[piece-itpete]

JC I largely agree. As Jesus tore the drape between the people and the alter in two there is no legitimate claim from organizations to be required for salvation.

Pete

[merrylander]

As far as we are concerned (my formerly RC wife and former Methodist me) churches no longer follow Christ's teachings but spend all their time and money ensuring their own survival. When Ratzinger's Bish's jumped all over the nuns I believe he may well be the last papa. These ladies are the ones looking after the sick and poor as Jesus taught, I'm believe this hornets nest is going to be fun to watch.

[BlueStreak]

Agreed, but my point was that Catholicism actual became a church under Constaninople. Before this it was christians. In other words the entire life of the church as an organized religion was born from politics, not from religious beliefs. The religious beliefs were simply the tool used to control the masses.

This is one of hte main reasons I became an angnostic. There is simply no way a church founded on politics but preaching religion can hold an ethical line and provide the truth about "God". It is the ultimate perversion of virtue and ethics.

I see and concur.

[budgetaudio6]

It's a great mystery. Even Jesus often spoke in riddles only explained to his closest, and Satan would surely like to confuse us. Most of what we think is probably wrong. After all we are corrupt. I wouldn't put too much stock in books, although I really liked 'The Perversion of Christianity'. The key is remembering the scales are balanced, our sins have been atoned by a blood sacrifice. No translation error or misunderstanding will change that. If the good Lord forgives the big stuff he'll certainly forgive the little stuff.

I think the big question is why, why were we created... there is no answer revealed as of yet.

We'll know soon enough :D So, 'When you reach, that golden city, friends and loved ones you will see. When the saints, come out to meet you.... Shake my mothers' hand for me.'

Cheers!

We were created to Praise the Lord. By our own free will. Because of the atoning sacrifice he made for us.

We could find no way. But Jesus did. And with our accepting of it we are given a cloak of righteousness. The very righteousness of GOD.

Im not pefect at all. i have many short comings. But jesus paved teh way.


Now lets remember the prayer between the pharisee and the publican...read the bible or even google it if ya wanna cheat. the outcome is the same! And together HALLELUJAH!
EDIT ---I QUOTED YOU BUT WROTE IN THE WRONG SECTION
Pete yay!:d NOW BACK TO READ THIS THREAD WHERE I LEFT OFF. sorry for yelling.:)

Christianity is mistaken co much for a religion. What it shoud be is a relationship between the believer and the L relationship with your prayers. like you and i talk...ord.