Its Israel's fault

[whell]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-17620925

This is obviously Israel's fault. :rolleyes:

[BlueStreak]

If we had never created that travesty in the desert, we might not have as many problems today as we do. They are an unwanted intruder in the tenement of life, over there. But, we just had to do it out of a bunch of silly religious nonsense. I've even heard some argue that the creation of Israel was an anti-Semitic move on the behalf of some Eurpoean governments, a way of inviting the Jews to leave. And, I'm begiinning to think there may be some truth in that.

Regards,
Dave

[piece-itpete]

They're no guest, and it wasn't religious.

When are the ME nations going to grow up? 'We're here, we're queer, get used to it.' Wait, wrong slogan.

Pete

[BlueStreak]

Okay, fixed it for ya.

And,

Ooooooh but a lot of people sure do think the return of the Israelites to the holyland has religious significance, don't they?

Dave

[piece-itpete]

Yes some think it's significant, including myself, but the real immediate reason at the time is far different.


I guess you could say the western powers at the time were trying to find a solution that wasn't awful.

Pete

[noonereal]

It was done to give us a foothold in the middle east and not for humanitarian reasons.

Very little is ever done for humanitarian reasons but humanitarian reasons are always shoved in the face of the masses to "sell" the ideas of the powerful.

[BlueStreak]

The "final" solution was awful, so they needed a better way? The religious aspect just made the move more palatable for the general populace to swallow. Easier for the powers that be to sell. History is full of instances where religion is highjacked for such reasons. Isn't it?

Or are we talking about protecting other "interests"? Which, well..................is getting rather expensive these days.

Dave

[piece-itpete]

At the time any thinking person was revolted and hoped to prevent it from happening again.

If we were doing it for various reasons you'd think we'd have put it someplace with oil and maybe water.

Pete

[noonereal]

At the time any thinking person was revolted and hoped to prevent it from happening again.

If we were doing it for various reasons you'd think we'd have put it someplace with oil and maybe water.

Pete

Believe as you like. No government or especially group of governments has ever done anything to "be nice."

It just doesn't happen. Just like no war has ever been fought for other than economics.

Even Bi's supports would never have attacked us if they all had lap tops and wide screens to keep them content.

Sorry Pete the idea that governments do charity work just strikes me as naive.

[piece-itpete]

I agree that government work in their best interests. The scope and scale of antisemitism at its' worst caused reactions though. Unless FDR was inhuman?

Pete

[BlueStreak]

Then, why didn't they just come here? A whole lot of them did, and do quite well. For that matter quite a few did stay in Europe and seem to do pretty good there too. With the possible exception of those trapped in Soviet Bloc nations, unfortunately.

Dave

[BlueStreak]

I agree that government work in their best interests. The scope and scale of antisemitism at its' worst caused reactions though. Unless FDR was inhuman?

Pete

Oh, now what sinister anti-Semitic plot did FDR hatch? Was he in cahoots with Henry Ford on that?

Dave

[piece-itpete]

I'm saying that if FDR did not shudder in horror at the holocaust and attempt to shape a world where it didn't happen again he would've been inhuman.

It so happens, he did :) After his admin turned away Jewish refugees though.

When are folks going to hold the MEs hatemongers feet to the fire? They've taken their hate-ins straight out of 1984 with a good dose of nazi.

http://barenakedislam.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/hate_america_crush_israel-vi.jpg?w=460&h=282

Pete

Pete

[merrylander]

Unfortunately for all concerned there was simply a move to co-exist in the area and would have gone quite peacefully. Bot hot heads on both sides decided that would be too much of a good thing and it all hit the fan. Lord balfour did not help either, but all this was back in 1930 and everyone has forgotten.

[BlueStreak]

I'm saying that if FDR did not shudder in horror at the holocaust and attempt to shape a world where it didn't happen again he would've been inhuman.

It so happens, he did :) After his admin turned away Jewish refugees though.

When are folks going to hold the MEs hatemongers feet to the fire? They've taken their hate-ins straight out of 1984 with a good dose of nazi.

http://barenakedislam.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/hate_america_crush_israel-vi.jpg?w=460&h=282

Pete

Pete

Ah, yes, "Two Minutes Hate".

Kind of like teabaggers shouting down any discernable discussion at town hall meetings a few years ago.......:p

Really, what do you expect? I mean it's not like we never supported Mubarack or even Saddam.........

Or does this make me an "apologist"?

Dave

[noonereal]

I agree that government work in their best interests. The scope and scale of antisemitism at its' worst caused reactions though. Unless FDR was inhuman?

Pete

Human or inhuman had nothing to do with it. We had already liberated the camps. That is all that is ever done for oppressed people. Why set up a country???????

Tactical.

[whell]

Because it wasn't just about what happened to the Jewish folks at the hands of Germany. Many Jews came to the US, but the overwhelming majority at that time were either in the Middle East or Europe. Antisemitism runs very deep in both the Middle East and Europe, and history is replete with examples of why the Jewish folks would never be fully welcome always be treated as pariahs...unless they had someplace of their own.

[merrylander]

Human or inhuman had nothing to do with it. We had already liberated the camps. That is all that is ever done for oppressed people. Why set up a country???????

Tactical.

Near as I recall they set it up themsleves, afterward the UN simply recognized the fact. the only country that had boots on the ground was the UK - and they were not exactly helping.:rolleyes:

[bobabode]

Near as I recall they set it up themsleves, afterward the UN simply recognized the fact. the only country that had boots on the ground was the UK - and they were not exactly helping.:rolleyes:
QFT
History is damn inconvenient isn't it.

[whell]

Near as I recall they set it up themsleves, afterward the UN simply recognized the fact. the only country that had boots on the ground was the UK - and they were not exactly helping.:rolleyes:

Kind of a gross over-simplification of the process, don'tcha think?

[BlueStreak]

Because it wasn't just about what happened to the Jewish folks at the hands of Germany. Many Jews came to the US, but the overwhelming majority at that time were either in the Middle East or Europe. Antisemitism runs very deep in both the Middle East and Europe, and history is replete with examples of why the Jewish folks would never be fully welcome always be treated as pariahs...unless they had someplace of their own.

So when do we give our African American friends a country of their own?:rolleyes:

Dave

[BlueStreak]

Near as I recall they set it up themsleves, afterward the UN simply recognized the fact. the only country that had boots on the ground was the UK - and they were not exactly helping.:rolleyes:

QFT
History is damn inconvenient isn't it.

Kind of a gross over-simplification of the process, don'tcha think?

Not really. Ever studied up on the acts of wanton violence Israeli terrori.....Oh, My bad. Meant to say....."heroes" committed against the British?

Dave

[noonereal]

So when do we give our African American friends a country of their own?:rolleyes:

Dave

When it is in our best economic interest.

[whell]

So when do we give our African American friends a country of their own?:rolleyes:

Dave

That's a bloody strange comment.

[whell]

Not really. Ever studied up on the acts of wanton violence Israeli terrori.....Oh, My bad. Meant to say....."heroes" committed against the British?

Dave

You guys like to talk about the formation of Israel as if it was simply an agenda item at the end of WWII. The issue has a history that goes back hundreds of years. The Irgun bunch was around for, what, maybe 20 years? Bringing them up in this context is like suggesting that Al Qaeda is in control of the acts and foreign policy of all Muslims. It doesn't wash.

[noonereal]

That's a bloody strange comment.

It made perfect sense in the context of the discussion.

[noonereal]

You guys like to talk about the formation of Israel as if it was simply an agenda item at the end of WWII. .

It wasn't? :confused:

[BlueStreak]

It wasn't? :confused:

Not necessarily. It is undeniably true that Israel has existed for a very long time. And the area never really was completely void of a Jewish population. But to deny that after the second world war that a mass exodus took place, largely facilitated and protected by western European governments and the U.S. Government is faux pas. Would the state of Israel, as we have known it since 1948, exist if not for that? Maybe. But, I for one doubt it.

[BlueStreak]

That's a bloody strange comment.

I'm a bloody strange person.

Dave

[BlueStreak]

You guys like to talk about the formation of Israel as if it was simply an agenda item at the end of WWII. The issue has a history that goes back hundreds of years. The Irgun bunch was around for, what, maybe 20 years? Bringing them up in this context is like suggesting that Al Qaeda is in control of the acts and foreign policy of all Muslims. It doesn't wash.

We do it just to annoy you. Now go away before I taunt you a second time!:p

Dave

[merrylander]

Seems like the arabs there are not the saints as picrured;

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/silence-on-palestinian-censorship/2012/04/05/gIQAZ3khxS_story.html

[BlueStreak]

Everyone is aware of that, Rob.

So, you we have a region of folks whom are brainwashed, willing to die to protect their "infidel free zone" and extremely intolerant of other religions. So what do we do? Why, plant an entire nation of infidels right smack in the middle, then wonder why there is no hope for peace, of course.

Smooth move.

Dave

[noonereal]

Why, plant an entire nation of infidels right smack in the middle,

Dave

to have a strong foothold in the middle east obviously

[BlueStreak]

to have a strong foothold in the middle east obviously

Worked out wonderfully, didn't it?

Dave

[whell]

Worked out wonderfully, didn't it?

Dave

It wouldn't matter where "we put them", and history demonstrates that. So, the creating of Israel, in the context of history, makes the most sense.

[BlueStreak]

Here wouldn't have been so bad.

[Charles]

Well, Harry thought he did the right thing.

http://jcpa.org/article/president-truman%e2%80%99s-decision-to-recognize-israel/

Perhaps he should have listened to Marshall.

Chas

[Bigerik]

Well, Harry thought he did the right thing.

http://jcpa.org/article/president-truman%e2%80%99s-decision-to-recognize-israel/

Perhaps he should have listened to Marshall.

Chas

Thanks.
An interesting read about one of my favourite presidents. Very much his own man, with his own beliefs, right or wrong. When did Washington change so much?

[merrylander]

Thanks.
An interesting read about one of my favourite presidents. Very much his own man, with his own beliefs, right or wrong. When did Washington change so much?

About 1978 when big business set about to take control.:rolleyes:

At the time of UN Resolution 181 (Partitioning) there were close to 800,000 Jews living in Israel in fact nearly half a million arrived befor 1939.

[BlueStreak]

About 1978 when big business set about to take control.:rolleyes:

At the time of UN Resolution 181 (Partitioning) there were close to 800,000 Jes living in Israel in fact nearly half a million arrived befor 1939.

Picked up the book, "Wnner takes all." last night, Rob. Fascinating.

It brings to mind a converstion I had with an uncle (mothers side), a Republican who worked in banking, back in the early '80s. I made the comment; "You know it almost seems perfect. Large, stable employers creating steady jobs and a workforce empowered to maintain wages supporting strong consumerism. It's beautiful." He sneered at me and said, "Maybe YOU think so, but that's all about to go away. So, I'd advise you to be ready for it."

That's right about where the book picks up.

Dave

[Rex E.]

Well, Harry thought he did the right thing.

http://jcpa.org/article/president-truman%e2%80%99s-decision-to-recognize-israel/

Perhaps he should have listened to Marshall.

Chas

Thanks Chas!

[noonereal]

It wouldn't matter where "we put them", and history demonstrates that. So, the creating of Israel, in the context of history, makes the most sense.

Just as I said Whelly, "At a meeting in the Oval Office on May 12, 1948, I argued: “In an area as unstable as the Middle East, where there is not now and never has been any tradition of democratic govern****ment, it is important for the long-range security of our country, and indeed the world, that a nation committed to the democratic system be established there, one on which we can rely. The new Jewish state can be such a place. We should strengthen it in its infancy by prompt recognition.”

[BlueStreak]

Right. Israel is a true democracy..................

Dave

[Charles]

As Churchill pointed out, "Nations do not have friends. Nations have common interests."

And as Kissinger pointed out, "Let's not confuse covert operations with missionary work."

Geopolitics are a messy business. And I, for one, do not attribute blame to those which are doing the best the can under the circumstances.

As an aside, I will say one thing for Harry. Right or wrong, he knew how to take responsibility and lead.

And he will be viewed in a positive light by the historians for having the fortitude to do so.

Or at least he should.

You really can't ask much more than that from a mortal.

Chas

[BlueStreak]

As Churchill pointed out, "Nations do not have friends. Nations have common interests."

And as Kissinger pointed out, "Let's not confuse covert operations with missionary work."

Geopolitics are a messy business. And I, for one, do not attribute blame to those which are doing the best the can under the circumstances.

As an aside, I will say one thing for Harry. Right or wrong, he knew how to take responsibility and lead.

And he will be viewed in a positive light by the historians for having the fortitude to do so.

Or at least he should.

You really can't ask much more than that from a mortal.

Chas

Heck, yeah. He was a good one.

Dave

[Rex E.]

I know my folks were "Truman Democrats" until the Reagan years. My grandparents home was not far from the "Truman Family Farm" in the Kansas City area.

[piece-itpete]

I've mentioned it before, when Truman was asked about Castro going over to the commies he said, on record, (from memory) 'That's what happens when you've got a goddamned fool in the White House.' :D

It made perfect sense in the context of the discussion.

Giant death camps and piles of bodies? :confused:

Lincoln was wrong, black folks are being assimilated...

Pete

[BlueStreak]

So, Eisenhower was a goddamned fool?

[BlueStreak]

I've mentioned it before, when Truman was asked about Castro going over to the commies he said, on record, (from memory) 'That's what happens when you've got a goddamned fool in the White House.' :D



Giant death camps and piles of bodies? :confused:

Lincoln was wrong, black folks are being assimilated...

Pete

Go back and reread those posts.

The disccusion at the time was that Jews were being given their own homeland because they ..."weren't welcome anywhere else in the world."........I believe was the phrase.

We were discussing the post WW2 era and recognition of the Israeli state.

So, I responded with "So, when do black folks get their own country?" in referrence to the "white flight" aspect of the not so distant past.

Had little to nothing to do with deathcamps or slavery, and more to do with religious/racial segregation.

Dave

[piece-itpete]

Even here in the smiling cracker north black folks did have their own communities.

So, Eisenhower was a goddamned fool?

Yes indeedy! :)

Pete

[BlueStreak]

You still miss the point, and I suspect it's deliberate. It has nothing to do with a North vs. South issue. It's about a repressed and unwanted population being granted their own national status by the UN. What makes Jews more priviledged that Blacks, Pete? How is it the UN can grant them the right to run a Zionist Society with our blessings (And financial backing of course.)?

Dave

[BlueStreak]

Even here in the smiling cracker north black folks did have their own communities.



Yes indeedy! :)

Pete

You're unbelieveable sometimes. And that's bad coming from me.

Dave

[piece-itpete]

Oh you can believe me Dave ;)

I have an extremely difficult time equating the awful horror of the holocaust to most other things, it belittles it.

Pete

[BlueStreak]

My statement had nothing to do with the holocaust.

[Charles]

Seems like I read that when Castro came to see Ike, he pushed him off onto Nixon.

And as far as the Joos in the Holy Land.

So what? When have the various tribes of society ever needed an excuse to murder one another?

Hell, that's what we do. "Go Hogs!!!!" We're trained to be provincial from the get go. We're a bunch of assholes, and we haven't evolved since the discovery of fire.

IMHO,

Chas

[BlueStreak]

I'd have done the same in 1959. Would have been far more interested in building highways and keeping the hawks at bay than mucking about with any risky military adventures in Cuba or Vietnam.

Domestic issues and Building America from the inside out comes first in my book.

Dave