the steps of saul...

[budgetaudio6]

He was a great persecuter of christians. On his way to damascus he was converted. Remember that he was the pharisee of the pharisee's.

And should have read pauls plea to the romans.

Atheists tried to discredit him. But when they followed his jpurney through the middle east they became converted. There is a book by a 19th or 18th century writer who went down that path to discredit christianity, but they failed, they became christian, Because pauls writngs were irrefutable...evidence was found to refute the scripture.


So this thread will be about the book of romans...in all my damage. As you see im not a saint. Im not a scholar. Nor do i know how to spell right as you can see.

Bible study any one? Leave your partisanship out of here. Is all i ask. there is no dems or repubs...You are welcome to attend.

[bobabode]

If you can't read the name of the forum it is you who should walk in Saul's footsteps. Real cute, Romans, you're a fart a minute.:p

[BlueStreak]

I know a woman was raised in a Baptist family, her father was a real fire and brimstone minister as was her grandfather and great grandfather. She followed in their footsteps, Master of Divinity, Ordained Minister, the whole nine yards.

Then, one day, she met, fell in love with and married a man outside her race (And faith, he is white and Jewish.) and learned the hard way just how forgiving and loving Christians really are. (As in---Not at all.)

It didn't destroy her faith entirely, but it changed her a lot. She no longer goes to church and hangs out with "the holy roller hypocrites" as she calls them. Ever. And when she encounters pushy, holier than thou Christians......YIKES!!!!! When politicians try to mix their politics and Christianity---DOUBLE YIKES!!!

Dave

[barbara]

Ok, Budget, I'll take the bait...
Let me preface this by saying it has been years since I have read a bible so I can not discuss specific scripture. But, I can discuss opinion and facts.
I respect your right to believe in any god you want. Your right to pray any prayer, your right to idolize any perceived saint, disciple, or angel you see fit.
Having said all that, I simply don't believe in a god and I don't subscribe to any particular religion, not even atheism.
But that is not the only difference between you and I.
The other difference is that I am content to hold my beliefs close without the need to convert others. You, and other religious zealots, insist others must believe the same as you, always trying to convert the non believer, and i find that to be very disrespectful to my rights to believe as I do.
.......with all due respect.

[merrylander]

Budgie you want to read the Bible? Here is an assignment for you;

Matthew 6: 1 - 22

Barbara and others I don't know with absolute certainty if Jesus was the son of God, nor do I conceive of God as the bearded man in Michelangelo's painting. That said I do believe that what Jesus taught makes a great deal of sense as a way of life. Much as I believe there are many others who proposed sensible concepts from Socrates to Byron.

However, being human I do not always live up to those concepts, but I do try.

[BlueStreak]

Ok, Budget, I'll take the bait...
Let me preface this by saying it has been years since I have read a bible so I can not discuss specific scripture. But, I can discuss opinion and facts.
I respect your right to believe in any god you want. Your right to pray any prayer, your right to idolize any perceived saint, disciple, or angel you see fit.
Having said all that, I simply don't believe in a god and I don't subscribe to any particular religion, not even atheism.
But that is not the only difference between you and I.
The other difference is that I am content to hold my beliefs close without the need to convert others. You, and other religious zealots, insist others must believe the same as you, always trying to convert the non believer, and i find that to be very disrespectful to my rights to believe as I do.
.......with all due respect.

Excellent post, as usual, my friend.:)

[d-ray657]

Jesus was a revolutionary. He rejected the status quo. He taught about the corrupting influence of wealth. He admonished us about our responsibility to care for the less fortunate. He associated with outcasts. He taught about overcoming ethnic boundaries. He praised the peacemakers.

And He provided free health care. ;)

Regards,

D-Ray

[BlueStreak]

Jesus was a revolutionary. He rejected the status quo. He taught about the corrupting influence of wealth. He admonished us about our responsibility to care for the less fortunate. He associated with outcasts. He taught about overcoming ethnic boundaries. He praised the peacemakers.

And He provided free health care. ;)

Regards,

D-Ray

Must be why conservatives are trying to rewrite the Bible?;)

[finnbow]

Ok, Budget, I'll take the bait...
Let me preface this by saying it has been years since I have read a bible so I can not discuss specific scripture. But, I can discuss opinion and facts.
I respect your right to believe in any god you want. Your right to pray any prayer, your right to idolize any perceived saint, disciple, or angel you see fit.
Having said all that, I simply don't believe in a god and I don't subscribe to any particular religion, not even atheism.
But that is not the only difference between you and I.
The other difference is that I am content to hold my beliefs close without the need to convert others. You, and other religious zealots, insist others must believe the same as you, always trying to convert the non believer, and i find that to be very disrespectful to my rights to believe as I do.
.......with all due respect.

My sentiments exactly. While I'm somewhere along the agnostic>atheist>don't give a sh!t continuum, I have a deep abiding interest in world religions though I don't believe in any and don't necessarily agree that they are collectively a force for good. Interesting stuff though.

[merrylander]

My sentiments exactly. While I'm somewhere along the agnostic>atheist>don't give a sh!t continuum, I have a deep abiding interest in world religions though I don't believe in any and don't necessarily agree that they are collectively a force for good. Interesting stuff though.

The religions as institutions are no force for good, just for their own survival. The honest practitioners are another story.

[Dondilion]

The christian religion is important to me because it provides a conscience. More to the point it not only provides (a conscience) for me but for others. At least we have a basic floor on which to stand.

[bobabode]

The christian religion is important to me because it provides a conscience. More to the point it not only provides (a conscience) for me but for others. At least we have a basic floor on which to stand.

I agree and may I add Buddha and Mohammed to the floor? The teachings are remarkably the same in their message regardless of human interpertations.:)

[Boreas]

The christian religion is important to me because it provides a conscience. More to the point it not only provides (a conscience) for me but for others. At least we have a basic floor on which to stand.

The implication here is that a moral code based in Christianity is essential to having what you refer to as a conscience. Is that what you believe? Can not Bhuddists, Jews, or Muslim possess a conscience? Can atheists?

John

[barbara]

The christian religion is important to me because it provides a conscience. More to the point it not only provides (a conscience) for me but for others. At least we have a basic floor on which to stand.

My questions are along the same lines as others have asked.........your words imply that one can not have a conscience if one is not christian.
And yet......I consider myself a person with a conscience......I have a very solid base when it comes to my values..........how can that be if I am not a christain?

[barbara]

Conversely,....... how do you reconcile all of the "christians" who commit henious acts seemingly without conscience?

[Dondilion]

And yet......I consider myself a person with a conscience......I have a very solid base when it comes to my values..........how can that be if I am not a christain?

What has shaped, influenced your conscience.... solid values?

[Boreas]

Conversely,....... how do you reconcile all of the "christians" who commit henious acts seemingly without conscience?

Especially those committed in the name of religion.

John

[d-ray657]

I was raised as a Christian, and that is how I see the world. However, I believe in a God that is universal and not subject to strictures that human institutions place on Him. I have done some research on the Golden Rule recently. Rob likes to quote Rabbi Hillel, and the quote is one of my favorites as well:

“That which is hateful to you, do not unto another: This is the whole Torah. The rest is commentary.”

Not surprisingly, the principle of the Golden Rule is found in many religions. While a Christian upbringing offers an opportunity to learn this just way of treating each other, the Christian community does not hold proprietary rights in the principle. For Example:

Native American Spirituality:

"Do not wrong or hate your neighbor. For it is not he who you wrong, but yourself." Pima proverb.

Roman Pagan Religion:

"The law imprinted on the hearts of all men is to love the members of society as themselves."

Shinto:

"The heart of the person before you is a mirror. See there your own form" Munetada Kurozumi

"Be charitable to all beings, love is the representative of God." Ko-ji-ki Hachiman Kasuga

Sikhism:

Compassion-mercy and religion are the support of the entire world". Japji Sahib

"Don't create enmity with anyone as God is within everyone." Guru Arjan Devji 259

"No one is my enemy, none a stranger and everyone is my friend." Guru Arjan Dev : AG 1299

Sufism:

"The basis of Sufism is consideration of the hearts and feelings of others. If you haven't the will to gladden someone's heart, then at least beware lest you hurt someone's heart, for on our path, no sin exists but this." Dr. Javad Nurbakhsh, Master of the Nimatullahi Sufi Order.

Taoism:

"Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss." T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien.

"The sage has no interest of his own, but takes the interests of the people as his own. He is kind to the kind; he is also kind to the unkind: for Virtue is kind. He is faithful to the faithful; he is also faithful to the unfaithful: for Virtue is faithful." Tao Teh Ching, Chapter 49.

Unitarian Universalism:

"The inherent worth and dignity of every person;"
"Justice, equity and compassion in human relations.... "
"The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;"
"We affirm and promote respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part." Unitarian principles. 1,2

Wicca:

"An it harm no one, do what thou wilt" (i.e. do what ever you will, as long as it harms nobody, including yourself). This is called the Wiccan Rede

Yoruba: (Nigeria):

"One going to take a pointed stick to pinch a baby bird should first try it on himself to feel how it hurts."

Zoroastrianism:

"That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself". Dadistan-i-dinik 94:5

"Whatever is disagreeable to yourself do not do unto others." Shayast-na-Shayast 13:29

Regards,

D-Ray

[barbara]

What has shaped, influenced your conscience.... solid values?

Life experiences.

[Dondilion]

Life experiences.

Devoid of christian influence?

[BlueStreak]

The christian religion is important to me because it provides a conscience. More to the point it not only provides (a conscience) for me but for others. At least we have a basic floor on which to stand.

Really? I know plenty of people who claim to be pretty devout who seem to have no conscience at all.

But, if it works that way for you GREAT!:)

Dave

[barbara]

Devoid of christian influence?

Dondilion,
in my life, there have been many influences, some good and some bad, but, all have helped to shape the person I am today.

As far as any christian influence, I would have to say that element impacted my life in a way that led me away from believing in any god that organized religion promotes, so, in that respect, it certainly hasn't helped imbed any values in me in the sense you are speaking of.

[barbara]

Really? I know plenty of people who claim to be pretty devout who seem to have no conscience at all.

But, if it works that way for you GREAT!:)

Dave

Well stated.........

[Dondilion]

It is my observation that essence of the christian gospel has influenced us towards the good deeds more than we care to acknowledge or realise.

[barbara]

It is my observation that essence of the christian gospel has influenced us towards the good deeds more than we care to acknowledge or realise.

I'm not surprised. It's easy to use the christian gospel to justify just about anything you want. You choose to see it as a conveyor of good works for you and that is a good thing. However, not everybody needs the crutch of religion to find good or project good in this world.
Whatever floats your boat.........but, isn't it enough to be happy and fulfilled with what you believe without having to convert others?

[Boreas]

I'm gone to prepare a place
That where I am thou shall abide

So Jah seh

Fear not for mighty dread
'Cause I'll be there at your side

[BlueStreak]

Here's a religous influence, I'd like to share with you Dondillion;

My mother once whipped me with an extension cord for being reluctant to go to church with her. I was 10. I sat on the wooden pew with welts from my shoulder blades to the backs of my knees. I took it like a little soldier though....('Cuz if I didn't, I'd get it again after church.)

Ah, yes. Christianity has been my solace and guiding light, fer sure.

Dave

[Dondilion]

I'm not surprised. It's easy to use the christian gospel to justify just about anything you want. You choose to see it as a conveyor of good works for you and that is a good thing. However, not everybody needs the crutch of religion to find good or project good in this world.
Whatever floats your boat.........but, isn't it enough to be happy and fulfilled with what you believe without having to convert others?

No need for conversion. Even the atheist uses christian points of reference as guide.

[bobabode]

No need for conversion. Even the atheist uses christian points of reference as guide.

To be correct I submit that agnostic might be a better term substituted for atheist in that statement as an atheist would consider that a left handed compliment. Not to mention that an atheist probably could teach a christian a thing or two regarding tolerance.:)

[d-ray657]

To be correct I submit that agnostic might be a better term substituted for atheist in that statement as an atheist would consider that a left handed compliment. Not to mention that an atheist probably could teach a christian a thing or two regarding tolerance.:)

Way too broad a brush there Bob. I'll agree that too many who attest to being Christians take a far too narrow view of what it means to be a moral person. By making religion a litmus test for what is moral, they neglect a wealth of information from all sources - science, experience, other faiths, other cultures - that could guide our moral choices. One who believes himself to be holier than thou isn't likely to learn anything from thou.

On the other hand, I'm not sure that tolerance includes ridiculing beliefs that do not satisfy the bounds of one's own logic. Nor is it tolerant to demand silence by those who would share information about something that provides meaning to an individual. Isn't that elevating logic to its own kind of holiness?

I love the "what are you listening to" thread here. It was pretty obvious today how excited I was about the musical experience that I enjoyed with the Crossroads DVDs. Music adds something to many or our lives, but it holds different levels of importance for each of us. Many of us like to talk about it. Our musical tastes do not, however, define our worth as individuals.

I see a close parallel between how music affects us and how religion affects us. Indeed, listening to some music is akin to a spiritual experience. One would not, however, to insist that our approach to music be logical. Similarly, religion adds something to the lives of many people, and is very important to them. It would seem like those who want to share their thoughts about that experience are entitled to the same respect as those who would tell us about the greatest concert they ever heard.

Regards,

D-Ray

[bobabode]

Way too broad a brush there Bob. I'll agree that too many who attest to being Christians take a far too narrow view of what it means to be a moral person. By making religion a litmus test for what is moral, they neglect a wealth of information from all sources - science, experience, other faiths, other cultures - that could guide our moral choices. One who believes himself to be holier than thou isn't likely to learn anything from thou.

On the other hand, I'm not sure that tolerance includes ridiculing beliefs that do not satisfy the bounds of one's own logic. Nor is it tolerant to demand silence by those who would share information about something that provides meaning to an individual. Isn't that elevating logic to its own kind of holiness?

I love the "what are you listening to" thread here. It was pretty obvious today how excited I was about the musical experience that I enjoyed with the Crossroads DVDs. Music adds something to many or our lives, but it holds different levels of importance for each of us. Many of us like to talk about it. Our musical tastes do not, however, define our worth as individuals.

I see a close parallel between how music affects us and how religion affects us. Indeed, listening to some music is akin to a spiritual experience. One would not, however, to insist that our approach to music be logical. Similarly, religion adds something to the lives of many people, and is very important to them. It would seem like those who want to share their thoughts about that experience are entitled to the same respect as those who would tell us about the greatest concert they ever heard.

Regards,

D-Ray

No disrespect was intended to Dondillion, I tend to bristle at blanket statements such as he had made. I try respect everyones beliefs and wanted to perhaps try to make a point that if someone is an atheist they are entitled to every respect given to any of the devout no matter what flavour. Sorry if I was appearing to be prickly but that wasn't my intent.

[d-ray657]

No disrespect was intended to Dondillion, I tend to bristle at blanket statements such as he had made. I try respect everyones beliefs and wanted to perhaps try to make a point that if someone is an atheist they are entitled to every respect given to any of the devout no matter what flavour. Sorry if I was appearing to be prickly but that wasn't my intent.

No disrespect taken. My point, at least in part, was that, just as some Christians can be intolerant of non-believers or people of other faiths, some atheists can be intolerant of Christians. Most Christians that I know are quite tolerant, and I know very few who are anti-science. As is often the case, the vocal minority (the Moral Majority, for example) give others a bad reputation.

Regards,

D-Ray

[merrylander]

The christian religion is important to me because it provides a conscience. More to the point it not only provides (a conscience) for me but for others. At least we have a basic floor on which to stand.

With all due respect I know many people who do not believe in any religion but are very moral and upstanding persons. Morality is a function of what one believes and is not the exclusive property of any religion.

Florence, my partner (and a former Catholic) and I (a former Methodist) now simply refer to ourselves a christians and the lower case c is intentional. We both sadly found more intolerance, back biting and sheer malevolance inside the church to the point that its survival as an institution became more important than its ministry.

So "where two or more are gathered together there will I be also" we take Him at his word.

Still as I noted earlier religion has not cornered the market on morality, Don covered that rather extensively.

[budgetaudio6]

Any individual church that strays from the Gospel teaching...e.g. preaching the precepts of men, which arent in the bible. should be avoided. Jeremiah wright any one?

There are people that use the gospel as a means to say that because we are under grace...it is ok to sin. when it isnt. It just leads to ones misery. Wether or not they will admit it.

Pauls plea to the romans was that , look here, we can never be good enough, so GOD seeing that, sent his only begotten son, so that who so ever believes on him should not perish but have ever lasting life. For god sent not his son into the world, to condemn the world but that the world through him might be saved.

Paul was a man who new the Old Testament. To a tittle, so to speak. But he still murdered christians. Have any of you murdered any one lately? Yet Jesus sought him out. Saul was asked, why are you persecuting me? Saul asked. Who are you LORD? I am Jesus whom you are persecuting.

Saul the pharisee of the pharisees saw the light. And as mightly as he fought against the christians, after his conversions showed the same fervor for christ.


Non of us are perfect. therefore we shouldnt look at other men or women for comparison.

[merrylander]

Non of us are perfect. therefore we shouldnt look at other men or women for comparison.

I do believe that is one of the reasons they invented mirrors.:rolleyes:

[Boreas]

No disrespect taken. My point, at least in part, was that, just as some Christians can be intolerant of non-believers or people of other faiths, some atheists can be intolerant of Christians. Most Christians that I know are quite tolerant, and I know very few who are anti-science. As is often the case, the vocal minority (the Moral Majority, for example) give others a bad reputation.

Regards,

D-Ray

Don, it's not just the fringe zealots. It's the various denominational hierarchies as well. Look at what's going on now with Catholic bishops suing over gay marriage and their right do discriminate in hiring. Time was the churches and their leaders were at the forefront of such issues as Civil Rights and an end to the Vietnam war.

John

[Boreas]

No need for conversion. Even the atheist uses christian points of reference as guide.

Your "Christian points of reference" are, in fact, universal cultural values and norms which the Christians merely adopted and espoused, just like all other religions have. These values predate religion - any religion - but leave it to us Christians to appropriate them and claim ourselves as the originators and custodians of all that's good in the world.

John

[barbara]

No disrespect taken. My point, at least in part, was that, just as some Christians can be intolerant of non-believers or people of other faiths, some atheists can be intolerant of Christians. Most Christians that I know are quite tolerant, and I know very few who are anti-science. As is often the case, the vocal minority (the Moral Majority, for example) give others a bad reputation.

Regards,

D-Ray

A good reminder...........It seems that when religion is discussed, especially in this type of forum, people get defensive.... I know, I do, and I'd like to think I am tolerant of others.

And, you bring up a good point about the bad rep the voal minority has given christians as a whole. I'm pretty sure the majority of liberals/democrats are christian too, but, one wouldn't think so listening to the hype.

[Boreas]

Any individual church that strays from the Gospel teaching...e.g. preaching the precepts of men, which arent in the bible. should be avoided. Jeremiah wright any one?

Fred Phelps anyone? Terry Jones anyone? Pat Robertson anyone? Bill Donohue anyone?

John

[BlueStreak]

Don, it's not just the fringe zealots. It's the various denominational hierarchies as well. Look at what's going on now with Catholic bishops suing over gay marriage and their right do discriminate in hiring. Time was the churches and their leaders were at the forefront of such issues as Civil Rights and an end to the Vietnam war.

John

True, and had anyone in the church wanted to oppose the civil rights movement, they could have simply pointed to the Sons of Ham.

But, they didn't. Because sometimes we must take into account that even our own deepest held beliefs can be corrupted. And as we were taught as kids, "It takes more of a man to admit a wrong, than it does to lie."

Unfortunately, that sage adage is fading from our institutions, even our religious institutions as some of us increasingly demand absolutism from them.

Dave

[d-ray657]

Any individual church that strays from the Gospel teaching...e.g. preaching the precepts of men, which arent in the bible. should be avoided. Jeremiah wright any one?

.

And this is the intolerance of which I spoke. Who are you or I to say that Rev. Wright does not preach message that is worthy of listeners? Lest we begin thinking that any church or any interpretation of the Bible is infallible, we must remember that men wrote the bible and that human beings are the leaders of churches.

Regards,

D-Ray

[BlueStreak]

Fred Phelps anyone? Terry Jones anyone? Pat Robertson anyone? Bill Donohue anyone?

John

Jim Jones, Marshall Applewhite, David Koresh, ----this guy; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom%C3%A1s_de_Torquemada .

The list goes on and on, streching back for millenia.

Dave

[barbara]

Your "Christian points of reference" are, in fact, universal cultural values and norms which the Christians merely adopted and espoused, just like all other religions have. These values predate religion - any religion - but leave it to us Christians to appropriate them and claim ourselves as the originators and custodians of all that's good in the world.

John

exactly right.......
if man had not integrated religion into the culture, we still would have cultural values and norms that would encourage "christian like" behavior.

[merrylander]

You mean like how Christmas was really the pagan feast of the winter solstice.:D

And Sinter Claus and Black Peter were old Dutch customs.

I do hope I have not popped somebody's bubble.

[Dondilion]

Your "Christian points of reference" are, in fact, universal cultural values and norms which the Christians merely adopted and espoused, just like all other religions have. These values predate religion - any religion - but leave it to us Christians to appropriate them and claim ourselves as the originators and custodians of all that's good in the world.

John

Check the other lands recently where non christian religions dominate? It is the infusion of basic christian tenets over time which sets our notion of what is fair, just, righteous even. Our discourse in matters relating to equitable change is argued from those points.

[BlueStreak]

I dunno, most Bhuddist societies seem to do pretty darn well and have been for a lot longer than the Christian world, actually.

I'm just sayin'......

[Boreas]

Check the other lands recently where non christian religions dominates?

Gee, I wonder which countries you're referring to. Honestly, the radical Islamists have about as much in common with mainstream Muslims as the Branch Davidians or the FDLS have to do with mainstream Christianity. Their values and their actions are in opposition to and are roundly condemned by the true adherents to the faiths from which these groups have deviated.

It is the infusion of basic christian tenets over time which sets our notion of what is fair, just, righteous even.[/QUOTE]

Again, these "basic Christian tenets" are not the sole property of Christians. They're universal and they're older than religion itself.

Our discourse in matters relating to equitable change is argued from those points.

As they have been for aeons, regardless of the presence of organized religion. They are simply sane and universal rules for ordering societies.

John

[Dondilion]

Gee, I wonder which countries you're referring to. Honestly, the radical Islamists have about as much in common with mainstream Muslims as the Branch Davidians or the FDLS have to do with mainstream Christianity. Their values and their actions are in opposition to and are roundly condemned by the true adherents to the faiths from which these groups have deviated.

It is the infusion of basic christian tenets over time which sets our notion of what is fair, just, righteous even.

Again, these "basic Christian tenets" are not the sole property of Christians. They're universal and they're older than religion itself.



As they have been for aeons, regardless of the presence of organized religion. They are simply sane and universal rules for ordering societies.

John[/QUOTE]

Radical Islamists and their governments are very much in tune except where there is a little push from western influence.

Agreed "tenets" not the sole property of Christians, but the stories re the life of Christ has made them more acceptable.

[wgrr]

Any individual church that strays from the Gospel teaching...e.g. preaching the precepts of men, which arent in the bible. should be avoided. Jeremiah wright any one?

I am sick and tired of you and the rest of the Bible thumping, know it all, right wing so called Christians, bringing up Reverend Jeremiah Wright as an example of all that is bad in the teaching of the Gospel because the Liberal media outlet ABC combed through hundreds of Wright's sermons, and cherry picked sentences from those sermons, to stir up a controversy, so they had something "sensational" to report. It was all a bunch of out of context crap that the Right lapped up and bought hook line and sinker.

I can assure you that you will never attain a level of scholarly knowledge, of the Bible, and Christianity that Reverend Wright has.

The man joined the Marine Corp in 1961 and then the Navy, when his Marine tour was up, where he trained as a cardiopulmonary speci@list. He was later assigned to Lyndon Johnson's medical detail. As you can tell he served in the Military during the Vietnam war.

After the military he went back to college and finished his bachelors degree at Howard University in DC in 1968. He earned a masters in English in 1969 from Howard university. He also earned a Masters degree from the University of Chicago Divinity School. Then he earned a Doctor of Ministry degree from the United Theological Seminary in Dayton, Ohio.

His honors are many:

"Wright has received a Rockefeller Fellowship and seven honorary doctorate degrees, including from Colgate University, Lincoln University of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, Valparaiso University, United Theological Seminary, Chicago Theological Seminary, and Starr King School for the Ministry. Wright was named one of Ebony magazine's top 15 preachers. He was also awarded the first Carver Medal by Simpson College in January 2008, to recognize Wright as "an outstanding individual whose life exemplifies the commitment and vision of the service of George Washington Carver"."

He took a small church in Chicago that had less than 100 members and built it into a church with over 8,000 members. I would say that is a very impressive accomplishment. He actually spreads the word of God and does it without banging hookers or snorting coke off a male prostitutes tight ass.

Jeremiah Wright any one? (sic)

[bobabode]

There's one real reason I tend to avoid religious discussions. You simply cannot debate a zealot who utterly believes in the righteousness of their particular brand of Christianity, while ignoring the most basic teachings of Jesus Christ.

I invite any zealot to go and discuss their faith with a Jesuit for a reality check.
(I was brought up Methodist so go figure on that recommendation;))
Humility and love of their fellow man seem be lacking in most zealots lexicons.
Peace and remember to walk in anothers shoes before attempting to judge or better yet, judge not.:p

[d-ray657]

because the Liberal media outlet ABC combed through hundreds of Wright's sermons, and cherry picked sentences from those sermons, to stir up a controversy, so they had something "sensational" to report.

An example of the truth that the corporate media has no agenda other than profit.

Regards,

D-Ray

[bobabode]

I am sick and tired of you and the rest of the Bible thumping, know it all, right wing so called Christians, bringing up Reverend Jeremiah Wright as an example of all that is bad in the teaching of the Gospel because the Liberal media outlet ABC combed through hundreds of Wright's sermons, and cherry picked sentences from those sermons, to stir up a controversy, so they had something "sensational" to report. It was all a bunch of out of context crap that the Right lapped up and bought hook line and sinker.

I can assure you that you will never attain a level of scholarly knowledge, of the Bible, and Christianity that Reverend Wright has.

The man joined the Marine Corp in 1961 and then the Navy, when his Marine tour was up, where he trained as a cardiopulmonary speci@list. He was later assigned to Lyndon Johnson's medical detail. As you can tell he served in the Military during the Vietnam war.

After the military he went back to college and finished his bachelors degree at Howard University in DC in 1968. He earned a masters in English in 1969 from Howard university. He also earned a Masters degree from the University of Chicago Divinity School. Then he earned a Doctor of Ministry degree from the United Theological Seminary in Dayton, Ohio.

His honors are many:

"Wright has received a Rockefeller Fellowship and seven honorary doctorate degrees, including from Colgate University, Lincoln University of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, Valparaiso University, United Theological Seminary, Chicago Theological Seminary, and Starr King School for the Ministry. Wright was named one of Ebony magazine's top 15 preachers. He was also awarded the first Carver Medal by Simpson College in January 2008, to recognize Wright as "an outstanding individual whose life exemplifies the commitment and vision of the service of George Washington Carver"."

He took a small church in Chicago that had less than 100 members and built it into a church with over 8,000 members. I would say that is a very impressive accomplishment. He actually spreads the word of God and does it without banging hookers or snorting coke off a male prostitutes tight ass.

Jeremiah Wright any one? (sic)

Thanks for that reality check, my friend. It bears repeating.

[Boreas]

Radical Islamists and their governments are very much in tune except where there is a little push from western influence.

Agreed "tenets" not the sole property of Christians, but the stories re the life of Christ has made them more acceptable.

They were always "acceptable" and accepted.

As for governments being in sync with their radicals, that's simply rubbish, not worthy of serious debate.

Keep backpeddaling. You might actually end up making a valid point. :)

John

[Dondilion]

As for governments being in sync with their radicals, that's simply rubbish, not worthy of serious debate.

:)

John

Darn! Never hear the name IRAN!

[Boreas]

Darn! Never hear the name IRAN!

Iran..... Iran..... Why, yes! Now that you mention it I have heard of Iran!

Ever hear of MEK?

Look, whether or not Muslim governments are in bed with radical Islam is immaterial to the point under discussion. So too is whether... oh, I don't know, whether the Republican Party is in bed with radical Christianity.

I think the answer in both cases is a qualified "no", by the way. Power elites always try to co-opt radical movements and then pervert them to their own ends. Religious power elites are no different.

Religiously based moral codes are derived from the secular codes that predate them. That's a simple, unalterable fact. A lot of those codes frankly aren't so good either. Take the Abrahamic religions and their attitude toward women. The whole "Eve thing". Abraham prostituting Sarah "so that things may go well for us". Christian evangelists turning Magdalene into a whore to diminish her influence and importance. Paul's "Better to marry than to burn." Islam's "I divorce thee" thrice repeated. These are unfortunate artifacts of primitive clannish societies, not "the Word".

John

[bobabode]

Iran..... Iran..... Why, yes! Now that you mention it I have heard of Iran!

Ever hear of MEK?

Look, whether or not Muslim governments are in bed with radical Islam is immaterial to the point under discussion. So too is whether... oh, I don't know, whether the Republican Party is in bed with radical Christianity.

I think the answer in both cases is a qualified "no", by the way. Power elites always try to co-opt radical movements and then pervert them to their own ends. Religious power elites are no different.

Religiously based moral codes are derived from the secular codes that predate them. That's a simple, unalterable fact. A lot of those codes frankly aren't so good either. Take the Abrahamic religions and their attitude toward women. The whole "Eve thing". Abraham prostituting Sarah "so that things may go well for us". Christian evangelists turning Magdalene into a whore to diminish her influence and importance. Paul's "Better to marry than to burn." Islam's "I divorce thee" thrice repeated. These are unfortunate artifacts of primitive clannish societies, not "the Word".

John

Great post John!

[Dondilion]

Iran..... Iran..... Why, yes! Now that you mention it I have heard of Iran!

Ever hear of MEK?

Look, whether or not Muslim governments are in bed with radical Islam is immaterial to the point under discussion. So too is whether... oh, I don't know, whether the Republican Party is in bed with radical Christianity.

I think the answer in both cases is a qualified "no", by the way. Power elites always try to co-opt radical movements and then pervert them to their own ends. Religious power elites are no different.

Religiously based moral codes are derived from the secular codes that predate them. That's a simple, unalterable fact. A lot of those codes frankly aren't so good either. Take the Abrahamic religions and their attitude toward women. The whole "Eve thing". Abraham prostituting Sarah "so that things may go well for us". Christian evangelists turning Magdalene into a whore to diminish her influence and importance. Paul's "Better to marry than to burn." Islam's "I divorce thee" thrice repeated. These are unfortunate artifacts of primitive clannish societies, not "the Word".

John

Your glib equations indicate that your head is in the sands. In Iran the Ayatollahs hold veto power!

[budgetaudio6]

wgrr, can you explain the video in this link?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnlRrxXv-v8

[d-ray657]

wgrr, can you explain the video in this link?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnlRrxXv-v8

Why don't you explain it?

[budgetaudio6]

in it wright says GOD DAMN AMERICA. please note that these arent my own words. But a quotation of wright...

[budgetaudio6]

in it does wright have any say so? well yes and no. This country is going to be no more, as it is. freedom is systematically stripped down already. msnbc and cnn are your worst best friend to tell you of what is going on...they are cowed by the fed.

[merrylander]

Ai Dios mio!

[BlueStreak]

Yes, all will be lost, America will cease to exist. (Sniffle, sniffle.) All things good and holy will rot and decay, a dark pall of pestilence, plague and faggotry will descend across the land. (BOO, HOOOOOOOO!!!!) We will all be slaves, strapped to the galley orrs and rowing to the steady beat of Obamas drums:eek::eek::eek:.......

Gawd, some people are such tools. (SMH)

[Boreas]

Your glib equations indicate that your head is in the sands. In Iran the Ayatollahs hold veto power!

Out of ammo?

John

[wgrr]

Your glib equations indicate that your head is in the sands. In Iran the Ayatollahs hold veto power!

No, not veto power, they rule the country. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is a figure head.

He has already been told, by the Ayatollahs to cool it with the nuke talk. Diplomatic solutions are working. Do we need another useless war. If Iran nuked Israel they would be turned into the largest glass sculpture in the world in a matter of hours.

[wgrr]

wgrr, can you explain the video in this link?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnlRrxXv-v8

I could but you would not understand.

[d-ray657]

I could but you would not understand.

Oh, SNAP! :D

Regards,

D-Ray

[piece-itpete]

Hah! Ayers is a 'respected' scholar too, doesn't mean he isn't an idiot.

Wright reminds me of the Matthew Rob posted at the beginning.

I didn't read all 7 pages btw :p I will say this: Jesus was either the Son of God, an idiot, or a liar.

Pete

[bobabode]

Hah! Ayers is a 'respected' scholar too, doesn't mean he isn't an idiot.

Wright reminds me of the Matthew Rob posted at the beginning.

I didn't read all 7 pages btw :p I will say this: Jesus was either the Son of God, an idiot, or a liar.

Pete

For shame, here all along I thought you could read.:D

[Dondilion]

I didn't read all 7 pages btw :p I will say this: Jesus was either the Son of God, an idiot, or a liar.

Pete

His teachings have prevented a religion from being mired in antiquity, by espousing the "new testaments", challenging old dogmas. No stoning to death!.....which is still sanctioned by other old rigid religions.

His life as chronicled, has helped provide a reference for millions of people. In a quandary the question is often asked...What would Christ want me to do? The nature of the answer, based on his teachings, is humane. These guides might not be followed but at least the individual is aware of what is required.

[d-ray657]

Hah! Ayers is a 'respected' scholar too, doesn't mean he isn't an idiot.

Wright reminds me of the Matthew Rob posted at the beginning.

I didn't read all 7 pages btw :p I will say this: Jesus was either the Son of God, an idiot, or a liar.

Pete

You should read it, Pete. I would like to hear your perspective. There was some interesting discussion before we got sidetracked by a stale controversy that even Mitt is avoiding.

Regards,

D-Ray

[piece-itpete]

Ok counselor, at your request :D

I completely agree with Don particularly about the 'floor'. I'm not trying to sidetrack the topic but anyone who says we at least 'weren't' a Christian nation (not government) has a very myopic view of all they've ever read about about our history, or has read 'proper' books.

I'm not going to argue that :) Take it as you will.

There have been honest societies throughout the ages, Christian and pagan. Early Rome is a good example.

That doesn't mean they were DECENT by our (Christian) standards. Torture, starvation, extermination, depraved sex habits and rituals, they had a very different POV. But they could be honest. While our systems may have their basis in Rome (a favorite belief among many atheists that is certainly true) our morals/mores are certainly not.

Most other religions, while they might teach personal responsibity and/or the golden rule, mostly also teach that one can work their own salvation. Christianity does not. This is a fundemental difference!

Socrates. Smart guy lol. Moral? He was happy to go to plays where, at the moment of execution, a condemned criminal was stood in for the actor, and was tortured to death on stage. Forget the kids being screwed literally.

Buddism, Hinduism, Islamicism, look to their fruits. Crazy poor. Oppressed. Often violent. Viscious peasant life for most with no hope.

Jesus said we'd always be a little flock, something to keep in mind when the tv preacher starts his goings on. We are also 100% fallible. Many look at Christians and say - wow, their god is screwed up, and I don't blame them, heck I won't put a fish on my car because I occasionally drive poorly and/or make mistakes and don't want people to blame God. But they will :D

You might never know by reading my posts here, but arguing and debate is what this place is for... love the sinner, hate the sin. With charity towards all, and malice towards none :)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5-7&version=NIV

Pete

PS - you asked :-D

[d-ray657]

Ok counselor, at your request :D

I completely agree with Don particularly about the 'floor'. I'm not trying to sidetrack the topic but anyone who says we at least 'weren't' a Christian nation (not government) has a very myopic view of all they've ever read about about our history, or has read 'proper' books.

I'm not going to argue that :) Take it as you will.

There have been honest societies throughout the ages, Christian and pagan. Early Rome is a good example.

That doesn't mean they were DECENT by our (Christian) standards. Torture, starvation, extermination, depraved sex habits and rituals, they had a very different POV. But they could be honest. While our systems may have their basis in Rome (a favorite belief among many atheists that is certainly true) our morals/mores are certainly not.

Most other religions, while they might teach personal responsibity and/or the golden rule, mostly also teach that one can work their own salvation. Christianity does not. This is a fundemental difference!

Socrates. Smart guy lol. Moral? He was happy to go to plays where, at the moment of execution, a condemned criminal was stood in for the actor, and was tortured to death on stage. Forget the kids being screwed literally.

Buddism, Hinduism, Islamicism, look to their fruits. Crazy poor. Oppressed. Often violent. Viscious peasant life for most with no hope.

Jesus said we'd always be a little flock, something to keep in mind when the tv preacher starts his goings on. We are also 100% fallible. Many look at Christians and say - wow, their god is screwed up, and I don't blame them, heck I won't put a fish on my car because I occasionally drive poorly and/or make mistakes and don't want people to blame God. But they will.

You might never know by reading my posts here, but arguing and debate is what this place is for... love the sinner, hate the sin. With charity towards all, and malice towards none :)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5-7&version=NIV

Pete

PS - you asked :-D

I didn't say that I would agree with you. :cool: But I did say that I was interested in your view. And I was not surprised that it was thoughtful and worth reading.

I do wonder what some of your sources are for conduct that you ascribe to Socrates and to the founders of other religions. And I question the cause/effect relationship between the material well-being of a society and the primary religion. Certainly some of the amazing technological advances that have benefited (?) the Western world are built on scientific principles that have their roots in non-Christian civilization. Actually, I find those who sell Christianity as a means to material success to be misrepresenting the message. To me, religion speaks more to the non-material aspects of our lives.

Regards,

D-Ray

[merrylander]

Hmm, Torture? The Inquisition comes to mind, or burning witches at the stake, or drowning them. I won't even touch on child abuse. Buddists? Thailand comes to mind and while not wealthy by our measurements their people seem happy enough. We have children here going to bed hungry and crying themselves to sleep.

As the island chief remarked when the 300 pound throne fell through the attic floor;

People who live in grass houses should not stow thrones.

[piece-itpete]

Hungry children? Here?

I agree horrible things have been done in the name of Christianity.

And we have slowly changed, become more, um, encompassing as Christian values have diffused through society overall. For an excellent look at it I would suggest 'That Hideous Strength' by CS Lewis. In it an early Christian comes forward to help deal with the progressive movement after WW2. It shows the differences quite well.

Heck I would read the whole 3 books (it's the last of a trilogy). They're pretty thin and a fast read. He has this amazing human quality that is unique in my experience and explains many arguments of Christianity extremely well, apologies in the classical sense.

Again, look to the fruits of a society. We never burned incense to an elephant or considered say a log to be sentinient. So we didn't have any compuctions about using things. The earth was placed at our disposal! And we are made in the image of God. So we can figure out how things work.

Pagans have been at this place before, where superstition was overlooked, like ancient Alexandria. However superstition was still used to control the masses, and the library burned.

D I can't possibly remember and/or find all the books I've read for sources. I've tried before and it's a fools game. But pre Christian western society was what we'd consider downright awful even compared to some of the nastiness we've experienced since.

Pete

[Boreas]

Actually, I find those who sell Christianity as a means to material success to be misrepresenting the message.

Pretty central to Calvinist theology, that material success and wealth are proof of salvation and grace.

John

[d-ray657]

Pete, it sounds like you are describing life without the Social Contract . . . nasty, cruel, brutish and short.

Regards,

D-Ray

[d-ray657]

Pretty central to Calvinist theology, that material success and wealth are proof of salvation and grace.

John

In the early days, there was some correlation between being a practitioner of Methodism and material success. However, that was attributed to the disciplined lifestyle that Wesley advocated. In fact, the disciplined lifestyle he described in his writings is how practitioners came to be known as Methodists - is was originally used to make fun of the stodginess.

Regards,

D-Ray

[piece-itpete]

Calvinistic D? :D

I agree with you. There is always Job.

Btw, there is a great example of pagan intelligence right in the Bible - the 3 wise men.

Pete

[Dondilion]

Hungry children? Here?

I agree horrible things have been done in the name of Christianity.

And we have slowly changed, become more, um, encompassing as Christian values have diffused through society overall. For an excellent look at it I would suggest 'That Hideous Strength' by CS Lewis. In it an early Christian comes forward to help deal with the progressive movement after WW2. It shows the differences quite well.

Heck I would read the whole 3 books (it's the last of a trilogy). They're pretty thin and a fast read. He has this amazing human quality that is unique in my experience and explains many arguments of Christianity extremely well, apologies in the classical sense.

Again, look to the fruits of a society. We never burned incense to an elephant or considered say a log to be sentinient. So we didn't have any compuctions about using things. The earth was placed at our disposal! And we are made in the image of God. So we can figure out how things work.

Pagans have been at this place before, where superstition was overlooked, like ancient Alexandria. However superstition was still used to control the masses, and the library burned.

D I can't possibly remember and/or find all the books I've read for sources. I've tried before and it's a fools game. But pre Christian western society was what we'd consider downright awful even compared to some of the nastiness we've experienced since.

Pete

Thanks for the heads up on the books.

There is a movie, Agora, which although not historically accurate, still provides some insights re with the destruction of the Alexandria library and is centered around the final years of Hypatia, the first noted woman mathematician.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agora_(film)

[bobabode]

I've always considered Einstein as a spot on religious teacher and I'm not even qualified to dog paddle around these waters that Pete and Don are swimming in.
For every action there's an equal reaction sounds like casting bread upon the waters..:)

[merrylander]

Never did get to the "Space Trilogy" but the "Screwtape Letters" was fun. Have to drop in to the bookshop up the road.

I think saying "The earth was placed at our disposal" is a rather odd way of interpreting "We were given dominion over . . ." To me that phrasing impies the requirement of husbandry of all things.

[piece-itpete]

We are to be good stewards of the earth and all things, so I've heard :) I'll have to check out the Screwtape Letters, thanks.

I'll have to find the movie too. I was thinking of Sagan, he says that it was because only the rarified few at the top who where given to knowledge, that it wasn't spread through the general population (if that was even possible) that the Library was 'sacked'. Who knows what really happened.

I tried to read the Christian hating Gibbons' masterwork once but man, it was a bit, stilted.

Pete

[piece-itpete]

Something occurred to me. I wonder if the rise of literacy corresponds to the rise of modern values.

Pete

[d-ray657]

Something occurred to me. I wonder if the rise of literacy corresponds to the rise of modern values.

Pete

Which one leading the other?

Regards,

D-Ray

[piece-itpete]

Being able to read the Bible yourself = modern values, of course :)

Btw I did a bit of looking, it's possible the Magi were Zoroastrian of all things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Magi

Pete

[BlueStreak]

Being able to read the Bible yourself = modern values, of course :)

Btw I did a bit of looking, it's possible the Magi were Zoroastrian of all things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Magi

Pete

It's possible they were a figment of someones imagination as well.

Dave

[Dondilion]

It's possible they were a figment of someones imagination as well.

Dave

It is possible indeed. Devout followers tend to embellish their leaders.
From the reference only Matthew mentions the Magi.

BTW just discover the supposed connection of magic to Magi. :D

[Boreas]

Being able to read the Bible yourself = modern values, of course :)

Btw I did a bit of looking, it's possible the Magi were Zoroastrian of all things.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_Magi

Pete

That's what I always heard. They were astrologers too. Of course, as far as I know, the Magi are an invention, part of the Nativity myth. Jesus was certainly a real person, divine or otherwise but the Magi?

John

[BlueStreak]

That's what I always heard. They were astrologers too. Of course, as far as I know, the Magi are an invention, part of the Nativity myth. Jesus was certainly a real person, divine or otherwise but the Magi?

John

I know for a fact, that Jesus was a real person. I met him at a bus stop in downtown San Diego. He smelled pretty bad and I think he mightabeen dead. But it sure looked like Jesus, pretty sure it was him. Did Jesus wear mirrored shades?

[piece-itpete]

We really won't know till we die :) It fits the story thusly: it shows that gentiles could and did understand what was happening by reading the Torah. Even moreso, as they figured it out and the Jewish authorities did not.

Reading about the Magi a few years back I bumped into an article that said there were a upper middle class in the ME at the time, that had free time, and they 'persued knowledge'. Couldn't find it though.

Pete

[piece-itpete]

Only when the futures bright Dave :D

Pete

[Boreas]

Did Jesus wear mirrored shades?

I dunno, maybe. He wasn't wearing any when I saw him at the soup kitchen.

John

[BlueStreak]

Only when the futures bright Dave :D

Pete

I dunno, maybe. He wasn't wearing any when I saw him at the soup kitchen.

John

Well, we know....God is one of us. Just a slob like one of us. Just a stranger on the bus, trying to make his way home...........:p

[d-ray657]

Actually, that is a fairly accurate reading of the Gospel: "Whatever you do for the least, you do for me." Somehow or another, however, such folks end up being despised as welfare queens and lazy bums.

Regards,

D-Ray

[piece-itpete]

We shouldn't encourage welfare queens and lazy bums?

However feel free to send me a donation :)

Pete

[Dondilion]

Pete: Noticed your new avatar-Solzhenitsyn, a fav of mine. Did you read "First Circle"?

[piece-itpete]

Nope! Just The Gulag Archipelago, but numerous times. Apparently I like to read books that make me heave.

Pete

[Boreas]

Pete: Noticed your new avatar-Solzhenitsyn, a fav of mine. Did you read "First Circle"?

I knew I'd spelled that wrong!

John

[merrylander]

We shouldn't encourage welfare queens and lazy bums?

However feel free to send me a donation :)

Pete

Nah, just crossover to the other side of the road.

[piece-itpete]

To the lazy bum side? :D

John, I couldn't spell it to save my life.

Pete

[merrylander]

Ah, fogotten the story of the Good Samaritan I see.

Strange how all the righties are so down on lazy bums but not a one ever applies that epithet to a Wall Street banker. Yet there is not a one of them that does an honest days work.

[piece-itpete]

Most of the homeless folks I've met are crazy, or at best chemical dependents. I won't wear my works on my sleeve, but helping people should be the cornerstone of a civilized society. Btw, some of the largest charities in the world are Christian.

Wasn't it Rockefeller that lost all body hair due to stress? I'm not covering for folks be they bankers or street sweepers.

Pete

[merrylander]

Too many homeless folks around here are veterans, probably foreclosed on while they were in Iraq.

[piece-itpete]

That is slimey.

Pete

[Boreas]

Because of our climate California is a magnet for the homeless. A lot of those I see around here are disabled - wheel chairs and walkers outside their makeshift shelters - so their ability to obtain gainful employment is severely curtailed. Their ability to obtain living assistance in light of their physical and/or mental restrictions is essentially non-existent.

Something else we have St. Ronnie to thank for.

John

PS: in light of the several threads that contain a fair amount of Mexican bashing, or just plain immigrant bashing, even in California, with it's large Chicano/Latino community, I almost never see any "brown" homeless folks. Something to think about, eh?

[Dondilion]

Because of our climate California is a magnet for the homeless. A lot of those I see around here are disabled - wheel chairs and walkers outside their makeshift shelters - so their ability to obtain gainful employment is severely curtailed. Their ability to obtain living assistance in light of their physical and/or mental restrictions is essentially non-existent.

Something else we have St. Ronnie to thank for.

John

PS: in light of the several threads that contain a fair amount of Mexican bashing, or just plain immigrant bashing, even in California, with it's large Chicano/Latino community, I almost never see any "brown" homeless folks. Something to think about, eh?

Mexicans are the hardest working ethnic group here. NYC

Immigrant groups are very sympathetic to their fellow country folks and will
quickly lend a hand.

[d-ray657]

Mexicans are the hardest working ethnic group here. NYC

Immigrant groups are very sympathetic to their fellow country folks and will
quickly lend a hand.

They sound like solid citizens to me.

Regards,

D-Ray

[piece-itpete]

I saw that working with Chinese immigrants (legal) years ago as a RE agent. They did not borrow from banks, but each other.

Pete

[Boreas]

Mexicans are the hardest working ethnic group here. NYC.

I have a lot of respect, admiration and just plain liking for pretty much every Mexican or Latino I've met out here. I'm afraid I can't make the same statement with respect to the "dominant culture".

John

[budgetaudio6]

many good posts here, Im glad the bickering has ended. Yes this country was founded with christian principles.

Charity should be the responsibility of the people. Not the government. Lest any should become lazy because of regulations against work and losing bennies.

Any man that does not work, neither should he eat. If a man is able to work he should.

Im forgetting the other posts i read. But we still havent gotten to the steps of saul, now known as paul as his name was changed when he converted. I think it calls for a different thread with the heading "The steps of Paul" But would that be defeating the purpose of this thread.

And sorry for my part in bringing politics into this thread after my admonition against it.

[barbara]

many good posts here, Im glad the bickering has ended. Yes this country was founded with christian principles.

Charity should be the responsibility of the people. Not the government. Lest any should become lazy because of regulations against work and losing bennies.

Any man that does not work, neither should he eat. If a man is able to work he should.

Im forgetting the other posts i read. But we still havent gotten to the steps of saul, now known as paul as his name was changed when he converted. I think it calls for a different thread with the heading "The steps of Paul" But would that be defeating the purpose of this thread.

And sorry for my part in bringing politics into this thread after my admonition against it.

Founded on Christian principles? I thought it was founded on the concept that people would have religious freedom to believe what they wanted to without the gov interference.

Not sure what you are talking about when you say people would be encouraged not to work for welfare.... Since the welfare reform act in 96/97, recipients receiving aid are require to work or be involved in job training. I'll be the first to admit the system isn't perfect, but that is no reason not to recognize the facts.

[merrylander]

Sorry budgie, I don't work yet I eat very well.

[piece-itpete]

Lead us O knower of the steps :)

Pete

[JJIII]

And sorry for my part in bringing politics into this thread after my admonition against it.

Something to think about...:)

"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is."
Mahatma Gandhi

_____________________________

[BlueStreak]

many good posts here, Im glad the bickering has ended. Yes this country was founded with christian principles.

Charity should be the responsibility of the people. Not the government. Lest any should become lazy because of regulations against work and losing bennies.

Any man that does not work, neither should he eat. If a man is able to work he should.

Im forgetting the other posts i read. But we still havent gotten to the steps of saul, now known as paul as his name was changed when he converted. I think it calls for a different thread with the heading "The steps of Paul" But would that be defeating the purpose of this thread.

And sorry for my part in bringing politics into this thread after my admonition against it.

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha..............:p

[BlueStreak]

Sorry budgie, I don't work yet I eat very well.

Because you worked hard and insisted on fair and strong compensation.

My generation has bought into all of the sanctimonious hooey that Budgie believes. We want to lick boots and run at Massas heels for shiney trinkets and shallow flattery. We don't want the bosses money, we want his love and respect.........The rest we trust in the Fairytale Ghost to provide........Meaning most of us won't have a pot to piss in when we get old.

But, Boy Howdy how richly the likes of Mitt & Co. will reward themselves.:rolleyes:

Brings Creedence to mind;

"Some folks are born silver spoon in hand,
Lord, don't they help themselves, oh.
But when the taxman comes to the door,
Lord, the house looks like a rummage sale, yes,

It ain't me, it ain't me, I ain't no millionaire's son, no.
It ain't me, it ain't me; I ain't no fortunate one, no."

;)

[piece-itpete]

I keep waiting for Obama to give me money.

Pete

[BlueStreak]

I keep waiting for Obama to give me money.

Pete

You'll die waiting.

[piece-itpete]

I know, I don't buy the line :p

Pete

[d-ray657]

many good posts here, Im glad the bickering has ended. Yes this country was founded with christian principles.

Charity should be the responsibility of the people. Not the government. Lest any should become lazy because of regulations against work and losing bennies.

Any man that does not work, neither should he eat. If a man is able to work he should.

Im forgetting the other posts i read. But we still havent gotten to the steps of saul, now known as paul as his name was changed when he converted. I think it calls for a different thread with the heading "The steps of Paul" But would that be defeating the purpose of this thread.

And sorry for my part in bringing politics into this thread after my admonition against it.

You're mixing religion with lunacy. "Regulations against work." What fiction factory did that come from?

As far as charity being the responsibility of the people, doesn't the Constitution begin with the words "We the people . . ."

Regards,

D-Ray

[bobabode]

Something to think about...:)

"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is."
Mahatma Gandhi

_____________________________

Bam and so true.:)might I add the obverse?

[finnbow]

Charity should be the responsibility of the people. Not the government.

So, may I assume you're against the government's allowable deductions for charitable giving?

[BlueStreak]

You're mixing religion with lunacy. "Regulations against work." What fiction factory did that come from?

As far as charity being the responsibility of the people, doesn't the Constitution begin with the words "We the people . . ."

Regards,

D-Ray

And charge the government with the reponsibility to "....promote the general welfare...."?

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Whoomp, there it is....

Dave

[BlueStreak]

Bam and so true.:)might I add the obverse?

That religion is little more than another form of government?

I'd have to agree.

Dave

[bobabode]

You've misunderstood my assertion that religion and politics are interchangable terms but you and I agree even in this. A theocracy is the very last thing that should be allowed to flourish on our soil. The religulous will disagree as they just can't wrap their heads around the constitutional aspects of keeping faith out of governance. The incessant, petulant assertion that America is a Christian nation galls me more than I can begin to tell. How arrogant does the majority have to be? Not much evidence of Christian values as far as I can see or is it just an aberational pick and choose doctrine being run up the flagpole? I suspect the later.

[budgetaudio6]

if we allow gubmint to choose where our our charitable donations go to. then where is our free choice? If we allow govmint to say what we can be able to? where is our free choice...When the govmint says this is only where you can give...but if we think you did it out of wrong choices we wont give you a deduction...But this is charity. Giving without any perchance of reimbursement. And you know many rely on that to give...and many do, unless proven untrue with the regs by bummer. Can you beielve it that charitable giving deductions are slated to be annulled?

Only the gubmint is the charity at their choosing.

[d-ray657]

if we allow gubmint to choose where our our charitable donations go to. then where is our free choice? If we allow govmint to say what we can be able to? where is our free choice...When the govmint says this is only where you can give...but if we think you did it out of wrong choices we wont give you a deduction...But this is charity. Giving without any perchance of reimbursement. And you know many rely on that to give...and many do, unless proven untrue with the regs by bummer. Can you beielve it that charitable giving deductions are slated to be annulled?

Only the gubmint is the charity at their choosing.

You can give to your heart's content and the government will not interfere. If you seek credit on your taxes based on what you give, then you can only take a deduction for gifts to tax exempt charitable organizations. Not much else in the post is coherent.

Regards,

D-Ray

[budgetaudio6]

i am not a home owner, and it hasnt been a hamper to me. Never have gotten any deductions from giving. nor any reimbursments from the govmint for my tithes or other wise.

I posted what i did to say that some people depend on the deductions from giving to off set their taxes...

[JJIII]

i am not a home owner, and it hasnt been a hamper to me. Never have gotten any deductions from giving. nor any reimbursments from the govmint for my tithes or other wise.

I posted what i did to say that some people depend on the deductions from giving to off set their taxes...

How does it make sense to give a large amount of money away to save a small percentage in taxes?:confused:

[merrylander]

How does it make sense to give a large amount of money away to save a small percentage in taxes?:confused:

I have often wondered the same thing.:)

[piece-itpete]

Bob, we might not be a Christian nation now, but we certainly were.

if we allow gubmint to choose where our our charitable donations go to. then where is our free choice? If we allow govmint to say what we can be able to? where is our free choice...When the govmint says this is only where you can give...but if we think you did it out of wrong choices we wont give you a deduction...But this is charity. Giving without any perchance of reimbursement. And you know many rely on that to give...and many do, unless proven untrue with the regs by bummer. Can you beielve it that charitable giving deductions are slated to be annulled?

Only the gubmint is the charity at their choosing.

Excellent. Government 'charity' is just a bunch of folks deciding who needs our money more than we do. As 'free' people we might, just perhaps, be able to decide for ourselves. But free people get in the way of the leviathian.

Pete

[Boreas]

I posted what i did to say that some people depend on the deductions from giving to off set their taxes...

How's that work????

John

[Boreas]

Bob, we might not be a Christian nation now, but we certainly were.

For eight years?

From the Treaty of Tripoli, 1797:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

John

[piece-itpete]

Read it, it defines itself pretty well...

Strange but Biblical creationism was taught into the 1900s, directly out of the Bible, across our land. This wonderful alphabet came out of one of the most widely used textbooks, again into the 1900s:

http://www.lib.udel.edu/ud/spec/exhibits/alphabet/images/child/newengland.jpg

"The New-England Primer, Improved; or, an Easy and Pleasant Guide to the Art of Reading. Adorned with cuts. To which is added, the Catechism. Boston: Printed for Hall & Hiller, 1810.

Although the author of the is unknown, it is clearly a reflection of the Puritan Church which exercised authority over everyday life in early New England. First published in England between 1687 and 1690, it quickly became the most important textbook in the American colonies and went through hundreds of editions over two hundred years. While the words used were simple, the lessons taught were serious, emphasizing respect to parental figures, sin and salvation."

.-.-.-.-.-.-.

http://www.lib.udel.edu/ud/spec/exhibits/alphabet/01_child.html

Pete

[d-ray657]

We the people, who are the government, in order to promote the general welfare, create programs to assist those who are in need. Such programs provide infant nutrition, old age income, medical assistance, housing assistance, education, job training, and others. As a democracy we choose to provide such a safety net - imperfect as it may be.

Regards,

D-Ray

[Boreas]

Although the author of the (book) is unknown, it is clearly a reflection of the Puritan Church which exercised authority over everyday life in early New England.

Shunning, the stocks, dunking, witch burning, all example of the Puritan Church's "authority over everyday life in early New England."

First published in England between 1687 and 1690, it quickly became the most important textbook in the American colonies and went through hundreds of editions over two hundred years.

Yes, the Colonies, not the United States. In the early history of European settlement of the Americas it was the various churches which were responsible for education - Harvard was established primarily for the training of the clergy - so it's far from surprising that their textbooks had a religious component.

John

[piece-itpete]

People'll claim bs of whatever - my Grandmother was a schoolteacher in Iowa after the turn of the last century. She had one of those books in her stuff.... I could kick myself for not picking it up. Not for money, for coolness and memory.

No comments on the alphabet? 'The idle fool is whipped at school'? :D

Pete

[JJIII]

Shunning, the stocks, dunking, witch burning, all example of the Puritan Church's "authority over everyday life in early New England."



Yes, the Colonies, not the United States. In the early history of European settlement of the Americas it was the various churches which were responsible for education - Harvard was established primarily for the training of the clergy - so it's far from surprising that their textbooks had a religious component.

John

Actually, no witches were burned in the Colonies. Tried and hanged or imprisoned but not burned.

[piece-itpete]

Thank goodness.

Lol. I went to a mock witch trial at Williamsburg. It was kinda surreal - very serious, like a real trial in a fancy courtroom with lawyers, judge in a wig, etc, until they got to the witch part.

Pete

[bobabode]

I don't hate anyones faith folks, I'm sorry that some maybe took it that way. I just don't want anyone claiming primacy based on their particular one in the governing of the country. We Christians are an overwhelming majority in this country and should never inject our religious views into the governing of it.
The prohibition against it is in the constitution and as I see it that was a wise choice. The tragic religious wars suffered in England had to be formost in their minds when they authored it.

What scares the hell out of me is someone perverting faith for their own purposes. What sickens me is some who insist on wearing their faith on their sleeves as if it were their favorite sports club. For simple reasons I object to religion in politics and government. I've read enough to see that a faith based government always ends bad for one or more segments of the citizenry. Moslem, Christian, Jew, Buddhist or what have you bigots should stay the hell out of government. There is no way it will not be abused by one sect over another fighting some long forgotten insult or lost battle, therein lies my fears and trepidation.

Religion is almost always a force for good until humans get involved and start monkeying around trying to find imagined insults or transgressions to be righted. I'm not saying religion is the sole cause of genocidal behaviour but it sure is run up the flagpole once the killing starts and perverted to justify it.

I apologize for not making my thoughts clear previously and I hope that this clears up any misconceptions. If not so be it. I do really resent any implication that my faith is any less or any more than anyone elses.

[barbara]

I don't hate anyones faith folks, I'm sorry that some maybe took it that way. I just don't want anyone claiming primacy based on their particular one in the governing of the country. We Christians are an overwhelming majority in this country and should never inject our religious views into the governing of it.
The prohibition against it is in the constitution and as I see it that was a wise choice. The tragic religious wars suffered in England had to be formost in their minds when they authored it.

What scares the hell out of me is someone perverting faith for their own purposes. What sickens me is some who insist on wearing their faith on their sleeves as if it were their favorite sports club. For simple reasons I object to religion in politics and government. I've read enough to see that a faith based government always ends bad for one or more segments of the citizenry. Moslem, Christian, Jew, Buddhist or what have you bigots should stay the hell out of government. There is no way it will not be abused by one sect over another fighting some long forgotten insult or lost battle, therein lies my fears and trepidation.

Religion is almost always a force for good until humans get involved and start monkeying around trying to find imagined insults or transgressions to be righted. I'm not saying religion is the sole cause of genocidal behaviour but it sure is run up the flagpole once the killing starts and perverted to justify it.

I apologize for not making my thoughts clear previously and I hope that this clears up any misconceptions. If not so be it. I do really resent any implication that my faith is any less or any more than anyone elses.

+2. Very well stated.

[Dondilion]

Actually, no witches were burned in the Colonies. Tried and hanged or imprisoned but not burned.

Sources, please!

[piece-itpete]

What! If your belief is one jot or tittle different than mine, you're a heathen who wants to destroy America.

Jeez I can't help it Bob. It's the soap! :)

Do we have overtly Christian laws? I think yes, but as a floor as mentioned, kinda ingrained into society, so accepted as decency we don't even see them that way. Ask a Muslim. But we don't require anyone to be a Christian (except the President!).

I Thank God that here we can vote our conscience with no restraint. For now.

Pete

[bobabode]

Blessed be. Is there any room for Wiccans? There's a litmus test for ya.:)

[piece-itpete]

So that's Obamas' REAL religion?? I knew it!!

I hate to say this, but the wiccans I've met (all girls, don't know why) are kinda strange. Not to say all are, I haven't met them all. The last one did say spells don't work for some reason. I found it (very) humorous but kept it to myself :)

Pete

[merrylander]

I think it was a Wiccan bumper sticker that said;

God is coming down here, and boy is She pissed.

[piece-itpete]

That explains it! :D

Pete

[d-ray657]

The malevolence that too many exhibit toward Muslims is entirely contrary to who we are as a people. Granted, the malevolence that many Muslims exhibit toward the US and towards some of their own neighbors is not what we would want to stand for either.

The current bad experiences of some people in the middle east from religious extremists, the horrible suffering caused by the crusades, the witch trials, and the purported biblical justification for slavery are just a few of the examples of why mixing dogma and government is a bad idea.

Regards,

D-Ray

[piece-itpete]

I understand you and agree, that we should treat people with kindness. From what I can see there's many muslims that are just trying to get by and do right as they see it. However government divorced from religion was also a disaster.

I think it comes down to, as bad as it is, people are a disaster. We're just lucky to be born where and when we were.

Pete

[bobabode]

I understand you and agree, that we should treat people with kindness. From what I can see there's many muslims that are just trying to get by and do right as they see it. However government divorced from religion was also a disaster.I think it comes down to, as bad as it is, people are a disaster. We're just lucky to be born where and when we were.

Pete

Not true, as it only became a disaster when both King Henry the Eighth or the Mullahs took over the reins of government, just to name a couple examples of what you get in a theocracy. Three days in the stocks for you Pete.:p

[JJIII]

Sources, please!

Here ya go...

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_witches_were_burned_at_the_stake_in_the_S alem_witch_trials

http://departments.kings.edu/womens_history/witch/werror.html#burned

http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=bn0sHcme7tE&page=1

http://www.localhistories.org/salem.html

http://etext.virginia.edu/salem/witchcraft/archivist.html

Try Google, There are many, many more.

[budgetaudio6]

People who own homes are able to use itemized deductions on their taxes. Forgot who asked on how the deductions happen. But only relevent to who wants to utilize it.

Bobode, not to worry.

In Christianitythe emphasis should be taken away from religiosity and towards more of a relational aspect. Remember that Jesus was against the Pharisees. Whom were the epitome of religiosity. But some aspects of religion are beneficial. Like the gathering together with other christians for worship. But a reliance to it, to be seen as good enough by God, should be avoided. As our doing good is seen as a fithy rag. And what type of filthy rag should we liken it to? How about a rag taken out of a septic tank, pour some radioactive waste to it. And now consider it filthy. Would we want to go any where near the rag. I sure wouldnt. A good thing God is graceful. At our repentence and confession of our sins Gods grace abounds through his son Jesus...

[Dondilion]

Here ya go...



Thanks!

[merrylander]

I understand you and agree, that we should treat people with kindness. From what I can see there's many muslims that are just trying to get by and do right as they see it. However government divorced from religion was also a disaster.

I think it comes down to, as bad as it is, people are a disaster. We're just lucky to be born where and when we were.

Pete

When someone asked Jesus which were the greatest Commandments He said "“Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets” (Matthew 22:36-40).

Now think about the second one, would it be possible to love your neighbour if you did not love yourself? I personally do not think I could do so.

[budgetaudio6]

Merrylander, That is one of the crux's of love thy neighbor as thyself. As for some people it can be hard to forgive oneself and love one self. Kind of like its easier to forgive others then one self.

And im sure every one has those moments in life, when they dont love them selves. But move on and except that fact(Im wording it wrong, not intentionally) or do something they feel cant forgive them selves, but get over it.

[bobabode]

I almost feel sympathy for you Budge.

[piece-itpete]

No stocks for me Bob - I was thinking of Communism ;)

...

Remember that Jesus was against the Pharisees. Whom were the epitome of religiosity. ...

Yeah, and they killed him too.

Pete

[BlueStreak]

Read it, it defines itself pretty well...

Strange but Biblical creationism was taught into the 1900s, directly out of the Bible, across our land. This wonderful alphabet came out of one of the most widely used textbooks, again into the 1900s:

http://www.lib.udel.edu/ud/spec/exhibits/alphabet/images/child/newengland.jpg

"The New-England Primer, Improved; or, an Easy and Pleasant Guide to the Art of Reading. Adorned with cuts. To which is added, the Catechism. Boston: Printed for Hall & Hiller, 1810.

Although the author of the is unknown, it is clearly a reflection of the Puritan Church which exercised authority over everyday life in early New England. First published in England between 1687 and 1690, it quickly became the most important textbook in the American colonies and went through hundreds of editions over two hundred years. While the words used were simple, the lessons taught were serious, emphasizing respect to parental figures, sin and salvation."

.-.-.-.-.-.-.

http://www.lib.udel.edu/ud/spec/exhibits/alphabet/01_child.html

Pete

The Puritans; A tyranny we threw off long ago. And it needs to stay "thrown off".:)

Dave

[BlueStreak]

I don't hate anyones faith folks,

I do.

But, I respect their right to exercize it, so long as they don't pass any laws forcing me to participate or live my life according to it.

Dave

[bobabode]

No stocks for me Bob - I was thinking of CommunistsPete

Now what am I going to do with those rotten tomatoes I've been saving up?:rolleyes:

[piece-itpete]

Go to the next Pres candidate thingie near you, either party is fine.

Take pictures :D

Pete

[bobabode]

Go to the next Pres candidate thingie near you, either party is fine.

Take pictures :D

Pete

LMAO! I've always wondered how the food was in Federal custody?:eek:

[budgetaudio6]

The malevolence that too many exhibit toward Muslims is entirely contrary to who we are as a people. Granted, the malevolence that many Muslims exhibit toward the US and towards some of their own neighbors is not what we would want to stand for either.

The current bad experiences of some people in the middle east from religious extremists, the horrible suffering caused by the crusades, the witch trials, and the purported biblical justification for slavery are just a few of the examples of why mixing dogma and government is a bad idea.

Regards,

D-Ray

The middle east is Islam to the extreme. We the people of america should be wary of the middle east. Even their doctrine says "kill the infidel" And who is the infidel? Me and you my fellow non muslim.
The only ally over there that we have is Isreal. whom the guy in charge denigrates every chance he gets...And we are going to get a pounding on the country the likes that we have never seen. Just because the guy in charge is going against him...The maladies of now , the record heat and its aftermath are not the last of it...

To be a good muslim that is what should be followed. Its in their book. Not mine mind you.

MMKay. the middle east is rife with govmints being mixed with religion.

[finnbow]

The only ally over there that we have is Isreal. whom the guy in charge denigrates every chance he gets...

Show me.

[bobabode]

You're not drinking enough, budgie.:p

[d-ray657]

The middle east is Islam to the extreme. We the people of america should be wary of the middle east. Even their doctrine says "kill the infidel" And who is the infidel? Me and you my fellow non muslim.
The only ally over there that we have is Isreal. whom the guy in charge denigrates every chance he gets...And we are going to get a pounding on the country the likes that we have never seen. Just because the guy in charge is going against him...The maladies of now , the record heat and its aftermath are not the last of it...

To be a good muslim that is what should be followed. Its in their book. Not mine mind you.

MMKay. the middle east is rife with govmints being mixed with religion.

Have you read the Koran? Have you compared it to the Bible? If you have not read Koran, upon whose authoritative interpretation do you rely to reach your conclusions? I suspect that we would have serious issues with many of the values espoused in the Koran and in the Old Testament. They were written in times much different than those we live in today.

[merrylander]

It has been their agressive actions toward my wife that dis inclines me to feel any great friendliness toward them. The Q'uran is one thing, Sharia is a completely different story. As far as I can see they treat their women in a manner I find unconscionable.

[Boreas]

...And we are going to get a pounding on the country the likes that we have never seen. Just because the guy in charge is going against him...The maladies of now , the record heat and its aftermath are not the last of it...

Holy shit, Budgie! You really are nuts, aren't you?

John

[merrylander]

Holy shit, Budgie! You really are nuts, aren't you?

John

I found these for him

[bobabode]

The middle east is Islam to the extreme. We the people of america should be wary of the middle east. Even their doctrine says "kill the infidel" And who is the infidel? Me and you my fellow non muslim.
The only ally over there that we have is Isreal. whom the guy in charge denigrates every chance he gets...And we are going to get a pounding on the country the likes that we have never seen. Just because the guy in charge is going against him...The maladies of now , the record heat and its aftermath are not the last of it...

To be a good muslim that is what should be followed. Its in their book. Not mine mind you.

MMKay. the middle east is rife with govmints being mixed with religion.

Ahhh, a Terry Jones sermon? Is that what this is? or Nostradamus?

[merrylander]

MMKay. the middle east is rife with govmints being mixed with religion.

A bad thing yet many of you want to mix religion into our government, strange.

[Boreas]

A bad thing yet many of you want to mix religion into our government, strange.

It's only a bad thing when it's someone else's religion. ;)

John

[piece-itpete]

That's the truth too. I vote my conscience. The minute the reasons for my vote are vetted we are no longer a free society.

Pete

[budgetaudio6]

any of you have as much access to the media i listen too. If msnbc is what you count as real news, not to discount cnn, they are just as bad. Remember how they determined the walker Recall. They said the lefties have it cinched...hahahahahahhahahhahah. For months on end until the end of the election. And afterwards. they showed the cry baby leftie to say that its the end of america! My view of lefties has been renewed!

[bobabode]

any of you have as much access to the media i listen too. If msnbc is what you count as real news, not to discount cnn, they are just as bad. Remember how they determined the walker Recall. They said the lefties have it cinched...hahahahahahhahahhahah. For months on end until the end of the election. And afterwards. they showed the cry baby leftie to say that its the end of america! My view of lefties has been renewed!

How about you stick it, asswipe? You engage in the most threadcrapping here abouts, even in your own thread. What's up with that?

[budgetaudio6]

cant help it. Just read through the thread again. bring a response that is political. all one can do is respond back...can you blame one not to respond politically when one has been responded to in the said manner?

[budgetaudio6]

can some of you at least shed some light to the lefty media of the walker recall. And what should have happened? Remember, they said that walkers opponent had the ticket from the start. Losers every one of them...omen to obama. Took restraint to not ...umm never mind.

[bobabode]

You don't make sense, why is that?

[budgetaudio6]

so you refuse to answer my question. So leftist! Refuse to answer any question. Hopefully the rest will go along!...sorry.

[BlueStreak]

can some of you at least shed some light to the lefty media of the walker recall. And what should have happened? Remember, they said that walkers opponent had the ticket from the start. Losers every one of them...omen to obama. Took restraint to not ...umm never mind.

Answer me this, Einstein;

Is there such a thing as the "Rightwing" media?

And do you really believe that they never distort, mislead or lie?

Dave

[bobabode]

Try asking a coherent question for once in your short life.

[budgetaudio6]

tell me who the right wing media is. And their lies to your perceptions.

[d-ray657]

so you refuse to answer my question. So leftist! Refuse to answer any question. Hopefully the rest will go along!...sorry.

It would be easier to answer a question that was intelligible. Try again and see if you can achieve any clarity.

Regards,

D-Ray

[budgetaudio6]

such a short memory? Is that typical? of lefties?

[budgetaudio6]

y is bummer in such dire straights?

[merrylander]

Budgie I could answer your question if I could decipher it. I could also go and yell up a dead horse's arse. Both would be equally productive.