Big Picture

[BlueStreak]

Look,

Sometimes I wonder if I really am the one that's losing his mind.

All I know is how things went as I watched them unfold and here it is;

Republicans including Newt Gingrich and some Democrats talk Clinton into repealing Glass-Steagal, the "housing boom" starts. After all, "de-regulation" is the REPUBLICAN mantra....is it not? By 2005, the bubble starts to crack, in 2006 it bursts and the foreclosures start. Republicans insist that the market will correct itself and take no action. GOP loses senate and house in 2006. 2007-2008 we find out about the "derivatives" mess and the disasterous effect that it has had on the global market. (Because deregulation has created the "freewheeling" atmosphere in which this mess was concocted.) Slide turns into crash. Bush finally agrees to bank bailouts. (Too late.) Job losses accelerate to ~750,000/month by the winter of 2008, foreclosures soar into the millions.

Obama signs second stimulus in June of 2009.

Freefall stops and reverses. Unemployment drops from nearly 11% to 8.2%. Market rebounds from less than 7,000 to about 11,000 a year later and over 13,000 today. In some states, such as Michigan and Ohio where the bailed out auto companies are....Unemployment drops by nearly half.

In 2010 Republicans regain the house and proceed to obstruct every effort by the administration to take any further action. Unemployment stagnates at ~8.0%. Gridlock sets in.....And, here we are today.

Am I missing something? You stand back and look at this objectively........Who are the f**k-ups here?

From where I'm sitting, it looks like....................

I'm just sayin'.

Dave

[Zeke]

When people can be trusted to regulate themselves, there is no need for regulation.

But that never happens.

[merrylander]

They can call it enlightened self interest until the cows come home but that does not mean it is not plain old fashioned greed with a capita G.

[djv8ga]

Freefall stops and reverses. Unemployment drops from nearly 11% to 8.2%. Market rebounds from less than 7,000 to about 11,000 a year later and over 13,000 today. In some states, such as Michigan and Ohio where the bailed out auto companies are....Unemployment drops by nearly half.

.

Dave
One major thing has taken place & you have intentionally skipped over it...
http://danielamerman.com/articles/2012/WorkC.html

[BlueStreak]

I didn't overlook that. It's bullshit, so I disregarded it......

The same way I disregard birthers and religious whackos who think our president is the anti-Christ.

Regards,
Dave

[Oerets]

The problem as I see it is in getting the message out. The Democrats seem to not get it, the Republicans will not budge. No working in the best interests of the citizens come from them. Then blame the Democrats for not being able to get anything done.

An added plus for the Republicans is people as a whole are lazy and will take the easy way out. Using simple things like pitting one segment of society against another or using a single issue have proven effective.



Barney

[BlueStreak]

One major thing has taken place & you have intentionally skipped over it...
http://danielamerman.com/articles/2012/WorkC.html

I didn't overlook that. It's bullshit, so I disregarded it......

The same way I disregard birthers and religious whackos who think our president is the anti-Christ.

Regards,
Dave

And even if there is any truth to it, it still doesn't change the fact that the Republican Party, in large part, helped create this mess and has been deliberately prolonging it for no other reason than political gain. This is becoming incresingly obvious by the day.

Regards,
Dave

[Twodogs]

One major thing has taken place & you have intentionally skipped over it...
http://danielamerman.com/articles/2012/WorkC.html

Trickle up economics at it's finest.

[icenine]

One major thing has taken place & you have intentionally skipped over it...
http://danielamerman.com/articles/2012/WorkC.html

Hey when you link to pages like this it is no wonder you have no credibility here....

[beej]

At the risk of repeating myself:

http://www.politicalchat.org/showthread.php?t=4343&page=10

[piece-itpete]

'talked Clinton into'. Lmao. That sap.

Pete

[BlueStreak]

'talked Clinton into'. Lmao. That sap.

Pete

Convinced, coerced, goaded into...........whatever.

[BlueStreak]

At the risk of repeating myself:

http://www.politicalchat.org/showthread.php?t=4343&page=10

Yep. Your post was one of my prompts to start this thread....That, a book I just finished and a documenary I've recently seen that make the conventional explanations mostly, albeit not exclusively, from the right look simpleminded and cliche'.

Dave

[whell]

Look,

Sometimes I wonder if I really am the one that's losing his mind.

All I know is how things went as I watched them unfold and here it is;

Republicans including Newt Gingrich and some Democrats talk Clinton into repealing Glass-Steagal, the "housing boom" starts.

The repeal of Glass - Stegall and the start of the housing boom do not have a causal relationship.

Obama signs second stimulus in June of 2009.

Freefall stops and reverses. Unemployment drops from nearly 11% to 8.2%. Market rebounds from less than 7,000 to about 11,000 a year later and over 13,000 today. In some states, such as Michigan and Ohio where the bailed out auto companies are....Unemployment drops by nearly half.

GM Bankruptcy date: June 8, 2009
Michigan Unemployment January 2009: 11.3%
Michigan Unemployment June 2009: 15.2%
Michigan Unemployment December 2009: 14.6%
Michigan Unemployment June 2010: 13.2%

Not sure where you're getting the "unemployment drops nearly by half" data, but it doesn't reflect reality in MI. And the drop in unemployment was (and is) at least in part attributable to a reduction in the denominator because fewer individuals were looking for work.

Besides, isn't the mantra that "those auto jobs are never coming back?", and also that "folks are being forced to accept lower paying jobs in other industries?"

In 2010 Republicans regain the house and proceed to obstruct every effort by the administration to take any further action. Unemployment stagnates at ~8.0%. Gridlock sets in.....And, here we are today.

On the contrary, only 63.7% of working-age Americans are currently in the workforce, the lowest workforce participation rate almost 29 years! To put it another way, 36.3% of working-age Americans do not have a job and are not even looking. Unemployment has stagnated at 8% because GDP growth has crept along at around 2% under Obama. Second quarter 2012 GDP growth was only 1.5%. If you have economic policies that discourage growth, you're going to continue to have unemployment "stuck" and individuals continuing to give up looking for work.

[whell]

I meant to include this link above. It explains how / why Michigan's unemployment rate is dropping in no small part due to the reduction in the size of the labor force.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/02/24/news/economy/jobs_michigan/index.htm

[d-ray657]

Whell, I think that you forgot to mention that the current unemployment rate in Michigan is 8.6%. (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/laus.nr0.htm/)

Regards,

D-Ray

[whell]

Whell, I think that you forgot to mention that the current unemployment rate in Michigan is 8.6%. (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/laus.nr0.htm/)

Regards,

D-Ray

Yup, and it typically starts to dip the early spring of any year due to the ramp up in the tourism industry. In January of this year the rate was 9.2%

Now, did you forget the part about the shrinking MI workforce, and the impact that it has on driving down the number? Are you also suggesting that, per Dave's statement that unemployment declined by "half", that 9.2% is somehow half of the high-water mark 15.2% - number which are also not adjusted to include the impact of the shrinking labor force?

[noonereal]

To put it another way, 36.3% of working-age Americans do not have a job and are not even looking.

We need to find a way to tax them to relive the burden on the hard working, ingenious risk taking upper class!

[BlueStreak]

The repeal of Glass - Stegall and the start of the housing boom do not have a causal relationship.


Yes, they did. At least from the point that the repeal of G-S paved the way for the consolidiation of the involved institutions into "Too Big to Fail" status.

There was an interesting article in Sundays WaPo about this, wherein the author made your point at the start of the article, then made mine in the conclusion. There is a link between the two. Deregulation opened the door for the mistakes to be made and run out of control in an environment wherein the players were too few and too large to not have a devasting effect on the markets.

And,

Yeah, I know; "They don't want to work so long as they remain on the unemployment teet." I've heard all of that. I've never drawn UE, but I've heard it sucks. So I only give so much creedence to that notion.

So,

What is Michigans rate today? Yeah, yeah, "Everybody is leaving.". That's what my cousin in Ohio says too.
Unfortunately for his assertion, he isn't the only relative I have living there. The others are all working. Some are beginning to talk of visible improvement........

[BlueStreak]

Michigan has a tourism industry?

I've been through there several times. I guess I can see that, somewhat. The UP is beautiful. I remember staying in Copper Harbor for a couple days when I was a kid.

Dave

[piece-itpete]

I remember hearing one fart smeller who said every other generation ends up believing it's immune for or fixed the issues that lead to a real economic problem with the one before. Seems about right.

Pete

[icenine]

I meant to include this link above. It explains how / why Michigan's unemployment rate is dropping in no small part due to the reduction in the size of the labor force.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/02/24/news/economy/jobs_michigan/index.htm

And just how will the anti-growth policies of Romny make Michigan better?

[whell]

And just how will the anti-growth policies of Romny make Michigan better?

Which of Romney's policies would you define as "anti-growth"?

[icenine]

Big cuts in government spending, tax cuts without paying for them....

[beej]

Big cuts in government spending, tax cuts without paying for them....

What you fail to understand is that those tax cuts will contribute significantly to paying down the national debt :rolleyes:

[piece-itpete]

Much better to have big boosts in government spending, and tax cuts without paying for them...

Pete

[BlueStreak]

Much better to have big boosts in government spending, and tax cuts without paying for them...

Pete

That's what we usually get from a Republican......................

[beej]

Much better to have big boosts in government spending, and tax cuts without paying for them...

Pete

That has a familiar ring to it. For some reason the years 2001 and 2003 and the letter W come to mind.

[BlueStreak]

That has a familiar ring to it. For some reason the years 2001 and 2003 and the letter W come to mind.

Or 1983 and the other guy with a W in the middle.............:rolleyes:

[beej]

Or 1983 and the other guy with a W in the middle.............:rolleyes:

Well win for the Gipper, you're right!

[whell]

Big cuts in government spending, tax cuts without paying for them....

You're very wrong here. Both Obama's plan and Romney's plan would involve tax increases.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joshbarro/2012/04/25/obamas-plan-is-a-stealth-middle-class-tax-hike-so-is-romneys/

Also, I can't find a politician of any stripe who has shown any realistic intention of reducing government spending. So, I suspect your big government is quite safe at the moment.

[icenine]

Hey where did Whelly go? I am sure Mitt will bring back the job creators to Detroit, after all he supported the bailout....ooops ......

[BlueStreak]

You're very wrong here. Both Obama's plan and Romney's plan would involve tax increases.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joshbarro/2012/04/25/obamas-plan-is-a-stealth-middle-class-tax-hike-so-is-romneys/

Also, I can't find a politician of any stripe who has shown any realistic intention of reducing government spending. So, I suspect your big government is quite safe at the moment.

Of course. There's no way around it. Most of the spending cuts simply aren't going to happen and the debt still has to be paid, regardless of who you vote for.

I find the quickest way to end an argument with elderly Republicans is to ask them if they'd be happy to give up their pensions, SS check, Medicare benefits and go back to work until they drop dead to "save" the country.....................

Of course not, but they expect following generations to do just that.:rolleyes:

Dave

[bobabode]

You're very wrong here. Both Obama's plan and Romney's plan would involve tax increases.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joshbarro/2012/04/25/obamas-plan-is-a-stealth-middle-class-tax-hike-so-is-romneys/

Also, I can't find a politician of any stripe who has shown any realistic intention of reducing government spending. So, I suspect your big government is quite safe at the moment.

Rumney has a plan? Surely you jest Whell. Maybe it's in a safe deposit box in the Caymans? We still want to see his 1040 forms. I wonder what he's hiding?:p

[Rex E.]

The housing market has bottomed out and on the up here in the hardest hit city in the country. I'm not sure if it's election year stuff or for real. Sure hope it's for real so I can sell and get outta here ;)

[finnbow]

Much better to have big boosts in government spending, and tax cuts without paying for them...

Pete

That's what we usually get from a Republican......................

This is the founding principle of Reaganomics, an idiotic notion still praised by the GOP.

[piece-itpete]

So, Obama has yet again continued Bush's failed policies. Change? Sure. Forward!

Pete

[bobabode]

So, Obama has yet again continued Bush's failed policies. Change? Sure. Forward!

Pete

Yup! have you gotten your PPACA refund yet?;)

[finnbow]

So, Obama has yet again continued Bush's failed policies. Change? Sure. Forward!

Pete

Then why is it that you dislike him?

[piece-itpete]

Nah, I dislike him because he said he was going to be different and I knew he was FOS ;)

Pete

[bobabode]

Nah, I dislike him because he said he was going to be different and I knew he was FOS ;)

Pete

Ain't they all? GW Shrub said he would moved our embassy to Jerusalem as his first act as President. That didn't happen. What happened to that kindler & gentler kind of Presidency promise? Well, to be honest nobody actually believed that one...:rolleyes: Not even the dimmest lefty was falling for that line of bullsh*t.
They get big a reality check once they're in office and start getting briefings from real lawyers and diplomats. The U.S. Embassy in Jerusalem? Not until the Palestinians invite us....:)

[piece-itpete]

But man, hope and change? Nobody in my memory blew smoke like our current leader.

Pete

[bobabode]

But man, hope and change? Nobody in my memory blew smoke like our current cheerleader.

Pete

Fixxed that for you.;)

[Oerets]

But man, hope and change? Nobody in my memory blew smoke like our current leader.

Pete

How fast one forgets the years 2001-2009 when convenient. Especially the years 2001-2004, how could anyone forget that smoke!



Barney

[bobabode]

How fast one forgets the years 2001-2009 when convenient. Especially the years 2001-2004, how could anyone forget that smoke!



Barney

Mission Accomplished... Shock and Awe.....

bombing Baghdad was premeditated murder, IMO.

[d-ray657]

Heck, even my 13 year old (at the time) noticed that once the bombs started falling it was no longer a search for WMD, but was "Operation Iraqi Freedom." :confused:

Regards,

D-Ray

[merrylander]

But man, hope and change? Nobody in my memory blew smoke like our current leader.

Pete

CRS kicked in again?:rolleyes:

[BlueStreak]

Heck, even my 13 year old (at the time) noticed that once the bombs started falling it was no longer a search for WMD, but was "Operation Iraqi Freedom." :confused:

Regards,

D-Ray

My favorite was the comment about Germany and Japan once being our enemies, but now being our friends. On it's face, you might say he's right.
Until you ponder the point that he was using this (in part) as justification for going to war.

Hey, guys! We want to be your friends! I launched the B-52s and Predator drones a while ago, they should be there any minute now.:eek:

Dave

[piece-itpete]

This Democrat supported action is the same as Obama's brilliant BS campaign how?

Or is this more smoke and mirrors? ;) How's rewriting NAFTA going?

Pete

[whell]

But man, hope and change? Nobody in my memory smoked dope like our current leader.

Pete

Fixed it for you, Part Deux.

[bobabode]

Fixed it for you, Part Deux.

That's a qualification not a liability Whell.:rolleyes: