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elwood127
10-31-2009, 12:44 PM
I've historically been a conservative at heart, a less government, get off your butt and make it happen type. Buying into the notion that Michael Moore was as un-American as they come. By chance I caught his documentary "Sicko" the other night. It looks into America's, England's, France's and Canada's heathcare systems. I came away hateing America or atleast American politicians and the American heathcare companies. Granted, we only see what Moore wants us to see but it is enough to leave no doubt that the talking heads on the right have fed us a line about the downfalls of government controlled healthcare. Doctors in France for instance get a base salary of 100k a year, more if thier patients get healthier IE: stop smoking, lower heart rates and lower weight. There are no waiting lines and all 911 calls get a medical team to evaluate and treat symptoms. Is it perfect? I doubt it. But in a country whose GDP is about 7 trillion dollars (that would be us) there is no excuse for not adopting a similar system. Unfortunately our politicians want to keep lining there pockets with lobbyist money. I'm ashamed for us all. Greed is ruining America. I'm glad I'm old and won't have to witness the fall of the worlds greatest country. Watch this video. You'll never be the same.

noonereal
10-31-2009, 12:51 PM
One of our countries biggest success stories in Medicare.
Enough said.

Bigerik
10-31-2009, 01:02 PM
Maybe being an outsider gives a different perspective two, but having lived in the US through 2 presidents (at least in part), I am really shocked to see how the country has changed. Shocked and saddened. I knew the American empire would not last forever (none of them ever do) but I never thought the collapse would have been as quick and as devastating as it has been.

noonereal
10-31-2009, 01:18 PM
Hmm, last time I checked, America is still the Nation that others are judged by. Michael Moore is indeed a strong debater, but as the original poster mentioned, it's just one side of a complex story. I would add that it's a very biased side.

Have you seen the movie?

BlueStreak
10-31-2009, 01:51 PM
Hmm, last time I checked, America is still the Nation that others are judged by. Michael Moore is indeed a strong debater, but as the original poster mentioned, it's just one side of a complex story. I would add that it's a very biased side.

And your side isnt?

Oh, that's right, only "Dittoheads" truly love America.

What a load!

Spare me,

Dave

Charles
10-31-2009, 02:38 PM
And your side isnt?

Oh, that's right, only "Dittoheads" truly love America.

What a load!

Spare me,

Dave

You're being a bit harsh on TD, don't you think?

I saw nothing in his post deserving of the majority of your response.

Chas

noonereal
10-31-2009, 03:03 PM
Chas, did you see the movie?
(I have not)
I would be interested hear your thoughts.

Charles
10-31-2009, 03:26 PM
Chas, did you see the movie?
(I have not)
I would be interested hear your thoughts.

Haven't seen it. Can't offer a valid critique.

Chas

d-ray657
10-31-2009, 05:47 PM
Have a cocktail my friend. You seem a bit tense.:p

Anyone for a Killian's Red?

Regards,

D-Ray

Twodogs
10-31-2009, 05:56 PM
Anyone for a Killian's Red?

Regards,

D-Ray

RED!!! I had you figured for a commie all along.:p:D

d-ray657
10-31-2009, 06:48 PM
RED!!! I had you figured for a commie all along.:p:D

But I live in a red state.

Regards,

D-Ray

BlueStreak
10-31-2009, 06:59 PM
Have a cocktail my friend. You seem a bit tense.:p

tEN STEPS AHEAD OF YOU. hAFF WAY THROUGH A BOLTTLE OF sINGLE mALT.

Charles
10-31-2009, 10:27 PM
tEN STEPS AHEAD OF YOU. hAFF WAY THROUGH A BOLTTLE OF sINGLE mALT.

Lay offa TD, he's taken the pledge.

And as one who took the pledge for five years...all I can say is, you become focused.

Like Henry Ford said, "You think that you can, or you think that you can't.
Either way you're right."

When I didn't touch a drop, I WAS focused, and everything fell into place. It was easy.

Anymore, don't much care. I'm tired of leading the charge, considering that no one wants to follow.

Basically, I've given up. I'm tired...just let me do my time.

Chas

Bigerik
10-31-2009, 10:29 PM
Hmm, last time I checked, America is still the Nation that others are judged by. Michael Moore is indeed a strong debater, but as the original poster mentioned, it's just one side of a complex story. I would add that it's a very biased side.

I am guessing you have not checked in a while. Living outside the US now, it is quite sad to see how the worlds view of America has changed. Eight years of Bush turned America, in the view of the world, from what you say, to a reckless, warmongering country unable to manage it's finances. While the fear of America (yes, fear in the western world) has diminished since the election of Obama, the respect is not back, and likely never will be. American greed is viewed as being the cause for the worldwide economic meltdown.
It is heartbreaking to see how America is now viewed.

elwood127
11-01-2009, 12:31 AM
The worst part is that it's an endless cycle. Republicans made their buddys rich and now the Dems get their turn. Both sides of the isle sold votes for cash and future high paying jobs with the companies that bought them. Voting them out solves nothing. No matter how honest the politician going in is eventually abosolute power corrupts absolutely. From the looks of things Obama hasn't kept one campaign promise. Lobbyists in his administration, no transparentcy, the war rages on, taxes will go up, and worst of all, they have the balls to fine me if I don't buy insurance. During a recession. He is turning out to be just another dillhole that said what he had to to get elected. Change my ass. I think he meant the last of my spare change!

BlueStreak
11-01-2009, 01:25 AM
Now that I've sobered up a bit.................(And no, I'm not an alcoholic. I rarely drink, that's why I get hammered so easily.)

Just thought I would share this with you......"Every revolution winds up in the same place, eventually. With abuse of power. Overthow a regime today, in fifty years you'll be doing it again." ---My Dad.

So, go ahead, create your "Conservative Party", whoop-de-do. I suspect it will be a whole lot less than fifty years and they'll be as crooked as a dogs hind leg. Nothing will change. 'cept we'll have three parties screwing us instead of two.

Dave

Bigerik
11-01-2009, 01:27 AM
I don't know, but it looks to me like Obama is trying to make some changes. Considering the forces against him, that he is getting anything done is miraculous.
Every American having health insurance is not a bad thing. Probably one of the best things to happen to the country in forever. HOW it is going to be implemented is being forced on him by the opposition, but it is a start.

BlueStreak
11-01-2009, 01:39 AM
I am guessing you have not checked in a while. Living outside the US now, it is quite sad to see how the worlds view of America has changed. Eight years of Bush turned America, in the view of the world, from what you say, to a reckless, warmongering country unable to manage it's finances. While the fear of America (yes, fear in the western world) has diminished since the election of Obama, the respect is not back, and likely never will be. American greed is viewed as being the cause for the worldwide economic meltdown.
It is heartbreaking to see how America is now viewed.

Oh, Boy. I wish more of my countrymen would get this, and learn to appreciate just how important it is. But I fear they never will.

Unfortunately, BigErik, too many of us have been brainwashed (You heard me right.) into thinking it's the rest of the world that's screwed up and we're the ones who've cornered the market on righteousness.
For cripes sake, some of 'em still bitch about metric measurement. It's simple "base ten", a whole lot better than that silly assed archaic shit we still use here. But, oh nooooo...It came from a strange and most foreign land, so it must be evil, Oooooooo!:eek:

So, what makes you think they're ever going to care what the rest of the world thinks?:confused:

Dave

merrylander
11-01-2009, 07:49 AM
I still can't get used to mm/dd/yy when all my life it was dd/mm/yy, never mind having to learn how to spell all over again.:rolleyes:

Bigerik
11-01-2009, 08:52 AM
So, what makes you think they're ever going to care what the rest of the world thinks?:confused:

Dave

It matters a lot now that the US is basically owned by the rest of the world.

In the never ending desire to have the cheapest possible DVD player, America has wiped itself out economically. There is not even a serious discussion about the fact that, every purchase of a Japanese made car, for instance, is now literally an attack on the US economy. The US is going down the tubes economically, the manufacturing base which is what made the US rich is being wiped out, and the cash for clunkers program pushes sales of Japanese cars up???

BlueStreak
11-01-2009, 09:06 AM
Yep.

Have you ever read "The Art of War" ?

Our "trading partners" are using our own greed to beat us. And we're so dumb we don't even see it. We all think we have a RIGHT to a two dollar wrench, and don't give a rats ass what the effect on our own economy is.

Don't care about the folks losing their jobs to outsourcing? Until the job that's lost is YOURS, of course.

And the answer? "Well, as long is I can hunt, I can support MY family!!"

Yeah. That's how you maintain a strong economy.

Idiots.

Dave

elwood127
11-01-2009, 09:07 AM
The fact that it cost's the taxpayer $24,000.00 per clunker sums it up. On that basis healthcare should actually run us about 6 trillion. Those administration costs are a bitch.

elwood127
11-01-2009, 09:11 AM
Just once I'd like to hear a leader say, cut up your credit cards, payoff all dept and buy nothing on credit. We have to teach our kids that or nothing will change.

d-ray657
11-01-2009, 09:11 AM
The fact that it cost's the taxpayer $24,000.00 per clunker sums it up. On that basis healthcare should actually run us about 6 trillion. Those administration costs are a bitch.

What's your source for that statement?

Regards,

D-Ray

BlueStreak
11-01-2009, 09:14 AM
$24,000 per? How so?

I don't buy that. Just smells fishy.

Dave

merrylander
11-01-2009, 09:32 AM
Just once I'd like to hear a leader say, cut up your credit cards, payoff all dept and buy nothing on credit. We have to teach our kids that or nothing will change.


Why does anyone need to tell you? We pay all bills at the 15th and 30th so by month end we owe no one. Lat year between a new roof, new patio doors, new sidewalk, exterior of the house pressure cleaned (if you think the gentle rain that falleth from Heaven is clean, I have news for you, it's filthy) and recent plumbing work we injected over $18,000 into the economy - our own little stimulus plan.

Did not take a degree in calculus to work out that system.

d-ray657
11-01-2009, 09:42 AM
WASHINGTON – Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood says the government has approved $1.22 billion in reimbursements to car dealers for sales under the Cash for Clunkers program.

LaHood said Thursday the government is on track to pay eligible dealers by a Sept. 30 deadline. More than 40 percent of the applications from dealers have been paid.

The rebates led to more than 690,000 new car sales at a taxpayer cost of $2.88 billion. Auto dealers have said the Obama administration has been slow to pay them for the car incentives, which ended on Aug. 24.

A lot of people jumped on the $1.22 Billion in reimbursements out of an appropriation of $2.88 Billion, but neglected to read the part that says the $1.22 B represents only 40% of the applications for reimbursements. If you take into account the 690,000 in new car sales for $2.88 B, that is about$4174 per car. Assuming an average payour of $4000, that amounts to a pretty low administrative cost.

Also consider that this program was multi-tasking. Instead of a direct loan or direct payments to the auto industry, the program assisted the auto industry by assisting consumers. It also was an incremental step toward improved air standards, and toward reducing dependence of foreign oil. Would I like to have seen the minimum mileage requirement higher? Yes. Would I like to see a similar, even greater, committment to public transit. Yes. Meeting those criteria, however, would not have allowed the program to multi-task as well.

Regards,

D-Ray

d-ray657
11-01-2009, 09:47 AM
Just once I'd like to hear a leader say, cut up your credit cards, payoff all dept and buy nothing on credit. We have to teach our kids that or nothing will change.

I pointed out in another thread that a long term cure for the economy is that we consume less and save more. Unfortunately, the process of withdrawal from our current lifestyle would be extremely painful in the not so short term.

In my life before law school, every time I got a raise, I would increase my payroll deduction to the credit union. That way we maintained the life-style that we were used to and didn't get used to having a greater income. As a result we were able to finance three years of law school without having to take out any loans. Unfortunately, going from employment to ownership has seen my income become considerably less stable, and considerably less, so with kids in college, savings are a dream right now, and debt is a reality.

Regards,

D-Ray

BlueStreak
11-01-2009, 09:54 AM
Just once I'd like to hear a leader say, cut up your credit cards, payoff all dept and buy nothing on credit. We have to teach our kids that or nothing will change.

I can agree with that.

Dave

noonereal
11-01-2009, 10:01 AM
Just once I'd like to hear a leader say, cut up your credit cards, payoff all dept and buy nothing on credit. We have to teach our kids that or nothing will change.

Seems like a knee jerk reaction. The credit markets are the single biggest reason we have such a big middle class.
If you want to advocate moving the pendulum from irresponsible credit to more responsible credit I would agree. You should be very happy as the pendulum is swing much farther than even responsible credit being available. It will correct however. The sooner it does the better.

elwood127
11-02-2009, 11:13 AM
The CNN crawl line said that. Here's an explanation.
http://money.cnn.com/2009/10/28/autos/clunkers_analysis/

elwood127
11-02-2009, 11:24 AM
It seems fairly simple to me. If you can't pay cash for it, you can't afford it. We've been programmed to believe that more stuff is better. This entire nation is one lost paycheck from disaster. Ask a friend or family member how many credit cards they own and how many of them can't be used because they are maxed out. Now they will waste 20 years of their lives paying interest that could have gone to something more meaningfull. I have a debit card and nothing else. I wish I had figured it out thirty years ago then maybe I could actually think about retirement. As it is that will never happen. Death is my retirement plan now.