God in the Classroom?

[BlueStreak]

The following was my final post in a thread regarding Public Education on another forum site. I was responding to a man who blamed evertying from rudeness to the decline in church attendence to cheese mold on the public education system.

"The teachers benefits packages don't have a damn thing to do with the kids. That's just the deal they get for doing the job. Religion has no place in a public school. Teaching a child religion, discipline and accountablitiy is supposed to be the PARENTS job. Which brings me to the real root of the problem.....parents who expect the school to "raise" their kids for them. Want you kid to grow up Christian? Fine, take him to church, read the Bible at home. It has NO PLACE in the public schools. The school should NOT be expected to take your undisciplined, spoiled little heathen and teach them manors and etiquette....That's YOUR JOB."

Is it just me, or am I hearing rightwingers blame things on the government that (should) have NOTHING to do with it? The government is to blame because your kid is foul mouthed, lazy and undisciplined? Really? Where are his parents in all of this? What is he learning at home? Maybe he got it from.....YOU?

Maybe I should butt out, because being childless, I have no dogs in this fight.
But, I can't help it, because some of the things I'm hearing these days, just throw me for a loop.

"My kid does nothing but sit in his room, eating Cheezie Curls, playing video games and smoking up all my dope! The damn teachers union is ruining his future!":confused:

Regards,
Dave

[finnbow]

I agree that parents have as much or more to do with childrens' success as any school. OTOH, in inner-city or other impoverished areas where parent(s) have no formal education, no meaningful work experience, etc., positive parental influences don't exist and the schools are forced to act in loco parentis (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/In+loco+parentis) if we, as a society, expect these kids to grow up to be successful/productive.

[BlueStreak]

I agree that parents have as much or more to do with childrens' success as any school. OTOH, in inner-city or other impoverished areas where parent(s) have no formal education, no meaningful work experience, etc., positive parental influences don't exist and the schools are forced to act in loco parentis (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/In+loco+parentis) if we, as a society, expect these kids to grow up to be successful/productive.

I guess I can see that, to a degree. But, this guy is no poor innercity parent. And I might add that I don't understand how poverty is used to justify, or explain poor parenting. My father was raised in a desperately poor family and he had an awesome work ethic.

[piece-itpete]

While I largely agree, there is a minimum of decorum that must be enforced in a classroom. I also agree with our favorite engineer that the inner city districts have special needs.

Pete

[finnbow]

I guess I can see that, to a degree. But, this guy is no poor innercity parent. And I might add that I don't understand how poverty is used to justify, or explain poor parenting. My father was raised in a desperately poor family and he had an awesome work ethic.

I think there are ethnic, cultural and economic reasons why some parents are unable or unwilling to instill a work ethic or a need for education in their offspring. The question is whether this results in a need for the state to step in in the hope of breaking this cycle in certain communities.

In suburban middle and upper class America, I have zero sympathy for parents who fail to instill these values. OTOH, I grudgingly accept that there probably is a societal benefit to the schools acting in loco parentis in areas where ethnic, cultural and economic factors have conspired to leave kids without any hope of success without some sort of intervention. I'm not sure how you break the prevailing dysfunctional cycle in these areas otherwise. Admittedly, however, it sometimes seems like throwing money at an intractable problem.

[BlueStreak]

I think there are ethnic, cultural and economic reasons why some parents are unable or unwilling to instill a work ethic or a need for education in their offspring. The question is whether this results in a need for the state to step in in the hope of breaking this cycle in certain communities.

In suburban middle and upper class America, I have zero sympathy for parents who fail to instill these values. OTOH, I grudgingly accept that there probably is a societal benefit to the schools acting in loco parentis in areas where ethnic, cultural and economic factors have conspired to leave kids without any hope of success without some sort of intervention. I'm not sure how you break the prevailing dysfunctional cycle in these areas otherwise. Admittedly, however, it sometimes seems like throwing money at an intractable problem.

I'll buy that. In cases where there seems to be a familial tradition of apathy towards education and honest work, external influence becomes necessary to "break the cycle" as you put it. And, a teacher who cares and possesses the ability to inspire and motivate can be just the ticket.

Regards,
Dave

[BlueStreak]

While I largely agree, there is a minimum of decorum that must be enforced in a classroom. I also agree with our favorite engineer that the inner city districts have special needs.

Pete

True. But I was addressing the depth of expectation. Of course the school must maintain order in it's halls and classrooms. It's when a parent expects the school to take on the entire task of molding a childs persona, even down to that childs core cultural and religious beliefs that I take umbrage. These are things the school should not be involved in. That is the function of family and, to a lesser degree, community.

It's all about degree.

This guy was going on about the public education system creating lazy, undisciplined and "godless" ignoramuses. I think our problems go a bit deeper than to simply pin blame on one of our institutions, then suggest forcing his own beliefs on a very diverse society as the only solution.

Regards,
Dave

[piece-itpete]

We mostly agree on this. I'll add though that a child spends a lot of time in school, and will pick up a lot of things not on the menu.

Pete

[BlueStreak]

BTW, the whole discussion started with an article on the Finnish school system. I don't know where he got his information from, but from what I've read and seen on a recent t.v. segment, he was dead wrong in just about every way possible.

Now, if he had seen the segment on the Singaporean system, he would have been closer to the mark. Far more regimented and demanding. For lack of a better phrase, I'd call that type of system too "mind control-ish" or "ant colony" for my taste. Does it produce a more disciplined lot? Yes, it does. But, it also crushes individuality and free thought.

Regards,
Dave

[BlueStreak]

I'm tired. Been up all night working and then raking leaves when I got home.

Time for a nap.

Dave

[Wasillaguy]

"My kid does nothing but sit in his room, eating Cheezie Curls, playing video games and smoking up all my dope!

Oh hell no.
Anyone who let's their kid get into their Cheezie Curls stash is just an enabler.

[mac mini]

"Act only on that maxim whereby thou canst at the same time wish that it will be universal law" Emanuel Kant, existentialist and Godless man.

You don't need religion to teach morals. Morals, decorum, honesty are the fabric of society. These are values that should be taught in school.

[BlueStreak]

Oh hell no.
Anyone who let's their kid get into their Cheezie Curls stash is just an enabler.

LMAO!

Dave

[BlueStreak]

"Act only on that maxim whereby thou canst at the same time wish that it will be universal law" Emanuel Kant, existentialist and Godless man.

You don't need religion to teach morals. Morals, decorum, honesty are the fabric of society. These are values that should be taught in school.

Forget where I heard it, but it went something like this;

"There are many things I don't do simply because I understand it's wrong and hurtful to myself and others. If one requires the ever present threat of eternal damnation to keep ones self in line.............that says something about the individual.";)

Regards,
Dave

[whell]

I agree that parents have as much or more to do with childrens' success as any school. OTOH, in inner-city or other impoverished areas where parent(s) have no formal education, no meaningful work experience, etc., positive parental influences don't exist and the schools are forced to act in loco parentis (http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/In+loco+parentis) if we, as a society, expect these kids to grow up to be successful/productive.

This is NOT directed at you Finn. However, I am really tired of this argument. I fully recognize that times are different, kids get exposed to certain influences may too early, etc, etc, etc.

However, I think about my parents growing up during a depression, when bread and milk sandwiches were on the menu for dinner - if they could afford dinner. There was no TV, no money to keep lights on at night so they lit candles, kids finding whatever they could to play with because there was no Xbox, etc. Kids were taught to be grateful for the little that they had, any small success was celebrated, and there was much more a sense of community than there is today, supported by folks actually getting together frequently with their neighbors, whether formally or informally just sitting on the porch in the evening talking while the kids played in the yard together.

We now have a society where expectations are high and entitlement is the currency. There is no sense of gratitude and achievement is disparaged. Parents are more concerned about what's going on at work than what's going on at home. I've heard more times than I care to count about folks who can't wait to get to work so that they can get away from the kids. Community now comes to you via your TV which usually brings you the most depressing possible view of the world, while families retreat inside their homes at night and tune out the world outside.

And then we wonder why kids have no respect for themselves or others?

Rant over. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

[piece-itpete]

Sometimes a good smack on the back of the head is in order.

Pete

[finnbow]

This is NOT directed at you Finn. However, I am really tired of this argument. I fully recognize that times are different, kids get exposed to certain influences may too early, etc, etc, etc....

I fully understand your frustration. As someone who lives in a county with close to the best schools in the nation (MoCo, MD) adjacent to several jurisdictions with close to the worst (DC and PGCo, MD), it's abundantly clear to me that throwing money at the schools doesn't seem to help and that parental involvement is key.

I don't claim to have the answer to this (nor does anyone else, given the evidence at hand). However, something needs to be done to break the cycle and educational success is the key. How to get there from here isn't. Ranting to 16 year old unwed mothers about their lack of parenting skills probably isn't the answer though.

[BlueStreak]

This is NOT directed at you Finn. However, I am really tired of this argument. I fully recognize that times are different, kids get exposed to certain influences may too early, etc, etc, etc.

However, I think about my parents growing up during a depression, when bread and milk sandwiches were on the menu for dinner - if they could afford dinner. There was no TV, no money to keep lights on at night so they lit candles, kids finding whatever they could to play with because there was no Xbox, etc. Kids were taught to be grateful for the little that they had, any small success was celebrated, and there was much more a sense of community than there is today, supported by folks actually getting together frequently with their neighbors, whether formally or informally just sitting on the porch in the evening talking while the kids played in the yard together.

We now have a society where expectations are high and entitlement is the currency. There is no sense of gratitude and achievement is disparaged. Parents are more concerned about what's going on at work than what's going on at home. I've heard more times than I care to count about folks who can't wait to get to work so that they can get away from the kids. Community now comes to you via your TV which usually brings you the most depressing possible view of the world, while families retreat inside their homes at night and tune out the world outside.

And then we wonder why kids have no respect for themselves or others?

Rant over. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

Interesting rant. Interesting, because it is confusing.

"....acheivement is disparaged."---It is? How? We THROW money at the successful in this country. Even when they fail and drag the global economy down with them. Even our sports figures and entetainers are wealthier than some COUNTRIES are. Because no matter how wealthy they become, it's never enough and we expect them to put some of it back into society?:confused:

"Parents are more concerned about what's going on at work than what's going on at home."

I've never met this person. Must be a management thing.
'Cuz, I know they certainly expect the rest of us to care more about the job than we do our families.

"Community now comes to you via your TV which usually brings you the most depressing possible view of the world, while families retreat inside their homes at night and tune out the world outside."

This I can agree with. Isolation is never good. It leads one to be apathetic towards the condition of the world around them and causes them to persue ambitions that are entirely selfish, narrow and single-minded, with no regard as to how their actions screw other people. In otherwords, they become Gordon Gekko.

Regards,
Dave

[Boreas]

This is NOT directed at you Finn. However, I am really tired of this argument. I fully recognize that times are different, kids get exposed to certain influences may too early, etc, etc, etc.

However, I think about my parents growing up during a depression, when bread and milk sandwiches were on the menu for dinner - if they could afford dinner. There was no TV, no money to keep lights on at night so they lit candles, kids finding whatever they could to play with because there was no Xbox, etc. Kids were taught to be grateful for the little that they had, any small success was celebrated, and there was much more a sense of community than there is today, supported by folks actually getting together frequently with their neighbors, whether formally or informally just sitting on the porch in the evening talking while the kids played in the yard together.

We now have a society where expectations are high and entitlement is the currency. There is no sense of gratitude and achievement is disparaged. Parents are more concerned about what's going on at work than what's going on at home. I've heard more times than I care to count about folks who can't wait to get to work so that they can get away from the kids. Community now comes to you via your TV which usually brings you the most depressing possible view of the world, while families retreat inside their homes at night and tune out the world outside.

And then we wonder why kids have no respect for themselves or others?

Rant over. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

This is truly pathological. Everything you assert about the Depression is romanticized treacle and everything you say about the present is cynical carping.

Nuff sed.

John

[piece-itpete]

I have a memoir of the Cleveland Superintendent of Schools from back at the turn of the last century, when Cleveland was a leading district nationwide. He said 'You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.'

Now, he'd be fired.

Pete

[ebacon]

There's a clue in that all of you are blaming someone else for the problem.

Education is a community effort. I did volunteer work for Detroit City Schools. Those kids are not dumb. They are not inherently mean. What they are are dejected.

Bill Cosby was on a rant a few years ago. He basicly was urging the black community to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. Easier said than done. At the time Dr. Cosby gave a speech in Detroit. Afterwards I was listening to a local black FM station and they talked to student. What he said literally made me cry. They asked him about the physical condition of his school and he said that he never gave it much thought until he visited a school in the suburbs. Then, he said, the condition of his school made him feel like he was worth less. Once a kid gets hit with that kind of dejection it is hard to pull him out.

I firmly believe that white flight, largely enabled by easy mortgage credit, has done more damage to our educational system than any other policy. We simply live too far apart and our tax dollars are spread too thin to provide a meaningful community in which to learn.

On top of that we are teaching kids stuff that they are not interested in --- but that's a different issue.

As for religion in schools, I think that should be left for each school to decide. They can get feedback from parents. Personally I am a fan of teaching kids about different religions so that they are not afraid of them, but that's just me.

[Boreas]

I have a memoir of the Cleveland Superintendent of Schools from back at the turn of the last century, when Cleveland was a leading district nationwide. He said 'You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.'

Now, he'd be fired.

Pete

George Washington Carver did.

John

[piece-itpete]

My turn to ask, explain please :)

eb used to be that way here, but a few years back the State matched Cleveland funds and they spent a billion dollars on the buildings.

Hate to say it, but I call them palaces of craptitude.

Pete

[ebacon]

My turn to ask, explain please :)

eb used to be that way here, but a few years back the State matched Cleveland funds and they spent a billion dollars on the buildings.

Hate to say it, but I call them palaces of craptitude.

Pete

Palaces of crapitude. I like the word, unfortunately that's the American way. Whenever we face a problem we try to fix it by spending on machines or buildings or computers or whatever. It is a byproduct of our focus on GDP.

If we focused more on being human I think we would be better off.

[BlueStreak]

I have a memoir of the Cleveland Superintendent of Schools from back at the turn of the last century, when Cleveland was a leading district nationwide. He said 'You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.'

Now, he'd be fired.

Pete

Was he suggesting that a stupid child will never be a successful adult----So why bother?

Regards,
Dave

[piece-itpete]

I figgered he was saying a slow child was better off going into trades.

Pete

[BlueStreak]

There's a clue in that all of you are blaming someone else for the problem.

Education is a community effort. I did volunteer work for Detroit City Schools. Those kids are not dumb. They are not inherently mean. What they are are dejected.

Bill Cosby was on a rant a few years ago. He basicly was urging the black community to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. Easier said than done. At the time Dr. Cosby gave a speech in Detroit. Afterwards I was listening to a local black FM station and they talked to student. What he said literally made me cry. They asked him about the physical condition of his school and he said that he never gave it much thought until he visited a school in the suburbs. Then, he said, the condition of his school made him feel like he was worth less. Once a kid gets hit with that kind of dejection it is hard to pull him out.

I firmly believe that white flight, largely enabled by easy mortgage credit, has done more damage to our educational system than any other policy. We simply live too far apart and our tax dollars are spread too thin to provide a meaningful community in which to learn.

On top of that we are teaching kids stuff that they are not interested in --- but that's a different issue.

As for religion in schools, I think that should be left for each school to decide. They can get feedback from parents. Personally I am a fan of teaching kids about different religions so that they are not afraid of them, but that's just me.

Good post, and I largely agree.

While in highschool, I was failing English class. Not because of a lack of ability, but because I felt the time was better spent smoking reefer off campus.

The guidance counselor asked why I refused to attend English class.

"Do you have any difficulty understanding my speech and writing?"

"No, I understand you perfectly well."

"Then why are you wasting my time? I'd like to learn a language I don't already speak, please? Maybe German, Russian or Japanese."

"You must learn Engilsh first.":rolleyes:

"Do I have to ask again?"

At this point he bacame frustrated and ordered me to shut up and go back to class.

Anyhow, when it comes to religion, I still believe religion is personal and should remain that way. Your suggestion that all religions should be taught, makes some sense, but leads to the question of how much time should be devoted to it? There are many different religions and sects. It could simply become too much. Also to consider are the headaches of dealing with parents who may object to their kid being taught what they believe to be "false" religions. Which, is why I believe that NO religion taught in public schools is the only way to go. Those who object can just send their kid to a religion based private school.

Regards,
Dave

[BlueStreak]

I figgered he was saying a slow child was better off going into trades.

Pete

In the Finnish system, this is generally what is encouraged. And, as I recall, we were given the same choice in Ohio, as we graduated tenth grade. But, that was many moons ago. I don't know what the deal is now.

Regards,
Dave

[piece-itpete]

So when the Declaration is taught, how does one discuss it? ;)

"because I felt the time was better spent smoking reefer off campus" ROTFLMAO!!! I took that class too :D

Pete

[piece-itpete]

In the Finnish system, this is generally what is encouraged. And, as I recall, we were given the same choice in Ohio, as we graduated tenth grade. But, that was many moons ago. I don't know what the deal is now.

Regards,
Dave

Yeah they had vocational when I went, but the whole 'machine' was set up for college prep.

I think a lot of European countries have a test at a certain age that determines which kind of school you go to.

Pete

[BlueStreak]

Yeah they had vocational when I went, but the whole 'machine' was set up for college prep.

I think a lot of European countries have a test at a certain age that determines which kind of school you go to.

Pete

Right. But unfortunately, certain students, (idiots and troublemakers) were "encouraged" to go to vocational school. Which created a problem for those of us who chose to go. My parents and teachers tried to talk me out of it. I should have listened.

[Boreas]

Yeah they had vocational when I went, but the whole 'machine' was set up for college prep.

I think a lot of European countries have a test at a certain age that determines which kind of school you go to.

Pete

One reason why these "vo-tech" programs work better in Europe is that the trades aren't stigmatized there as they are here.

John

[ebacon]

One reason why these "vo-tech" programs work better in Europe is that the trades aren't stigmatized there as they are here.

John

Exactly.

I think it's a shame that we stigamtize the people that actually do the work instead of just talking about it.

[BlueStreak]

One reason why these "vo-tech" programs work better in Europe is that the trades aren't stigmatized there as they are here.

John

Which was kind of the point I was trying to make in my last post. The "Vo-Tech" schools, in Ohio at the time, were being used by some districts as a dumping ground for hard cases. Which ruined it for the rest of us. I'm guessing the attitude was founded in the belief that trades are for lowlifes and halfwits anyways. And, then we wonder why "workmanship" is lacking in this country?:rolleyes:

Regards,
Dave

[Boreas]

Which was kind of the point I was trying to make in my last post. The "Vo-Tech" schools, in Ohio at the time, were being used by some districts as a dumping ground for hard cases. Which ruined it for the rest of us. I'm guessing the attitude was founded in the belief that trades are for lowlifes and halfwits anyways. And, then we wonder why "workmanship" is lacking in this country?:rolleyes:

Regards,
Dave

The assumption here seems to have always been that "manual labor" was for the weak of mind and the strong of back. Historically, it has been the work of slaves and recent immigrants who, as we all know, aren't all that bright, not quite human.

John

[piece-itpete]

It's the shape of their heads.

Pete

[d-ray657]

I do a lot of work with people in the building trades, and it amazes me the spatial vision that those people have. They are able to see a flat piece of sheet metal and visualize the part that it will become - and how many sheets of it will be needed to become a system of duct-work. I suppose my wife does the same thing with a piece of fabric. Me - trying to win an argument is the best I can do with abstract thought.

Regards,

D-Ray

[finnbow]

The assumption here seems to have always been that "manual labor" was for the weak of mind and the strong of back. Historically, it has been the work of slaves and recent immigrants who, as we all know, aren't all that bright, not quite human.

John

Indeed. Germany has a vocational training system that is the envy of the world. Part of the reason, I believe, is that all forms of work, be it laborer or lawyer, have dignity there. Here, blue collar work is a job, whereas white collar is a profession.

[whell]

Ranting to 16 year old unwed mothers about their lack of parenting skills probably isn't the answer though.

I was assuming a dearth of 16 year old unwed mothers on this forum made it a safe place to rant. :cool:

[whell]

This is truly pathological. Everything you assert about the Depression is romanticized treacle and everything you say about the present is cynical carping.

Nuff sed.

John

My post neither romanticized nor expressed cynicism. I'll just consider the source of the above comments. Nuff said.

[BlueStreak]

Pat, some poeple see a downside to seeing a bluecollar trade as a "profession". Calling something a "profession" usually means you will pay a higher premuim for that work and those who perform it will consider it a "specialty".

If you downplay welding, pipefitting, sheet metal work, mechanical work and so on as something any idiot can do it makes it easier to insist that one person do it all. And, quite possibly, at a lower wage than a "professional" would expect.

When I first entered the workforce, it was full of professional machinists, mechanics, welders and so on. Now, nearly everywhere you go they expect all of these things to be done by the same folks.......Fewer employees at lower wages. That's what it's all about.

Problem is, it doesn't work very well. I'm a pretty good mechanic, a fair welder and know a few basic things about electricity.............can't machine worth a shit. Most guys are a one trick pony. That's not being mean, it's just a statement of fact.

But, try telling that to management. They seem to think things will always work as they demand them to........:rolleyes:

Regards,
Dave

[icenine]

One reason why these "vo-tech" programs work better in Europe is that the trades aren't stigmatized there as they are here.

John

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/nov/11/world/la-fg-spain-basque-economy-20121111


most def

read the middle part of the article where it mentions vocational education.

[icenine]

I would hazard a guess that the recession may have been easier on those in vocational trades where the service can not be outsourced. If you majored in Philosophy back in the 80s you may be as competitive at an MBA is now...or vice versa. Any MBAs here?

[merrylander]

I would hazard a guess that the recession may have been easier on those in vocational trades where the service can not be outsourced. If you majored in Philosophy back in the 80s you may be as competitive at an MBA is now...or vice versa. Any MBAs here?

Not me, I dropped out after the ttenth grade but if that guy Beach from the Heritage Foundation I saw on the Newshour last night was an MBA I'll take him on anytime. He was saying the the reason the unemployment was much lower is that a lot of people have stopped looking. Then he went on to say that people who had been unemployed for so many weeks had lost their skills and were unemployable.

I never heard so much BS in my life, companies here are spoiled rotten. they locate where states or towns give them tax breaks then the whine because the schools are not turning out their robots and they wany the taxpayer to pay for re-training people. I'll be that all those Chinese they outsourced their company to needed training. In fact that was the hidden cost of outsourcing and is why companies like GE are bringing it back. Far too many expensive flights back and forth to China to get things done right.

I wonder did the first CNC machine come with an operator? They complain that programming one is difficult and requires special skills. More BS, back at Bell we made programmmers out of guys in the St. Vincent de Paul prison in Montreal, and later hired some when they got out. If company X wants trained people, do what any intelligent company does, find people who can learn and train them. You might have to fire the whole HR department to find them but they are out there.

Sorry getting crabby in my old age, turning 82 today probably did it.

[wgrr]

Yeah they had vocational when I went, but the whole 'machine' was set up for college prep.

I think a lot of European countries have a test at a certain age that determines which kind of school you go to.

Pete

Germany does.

[piece-itpete]

....

Sorry getting crabby in my old age, turning 82 today probably did it.

Happy belated birthday, cantankerous Rob :D

Pete