PDA

View Full Version : I guess a Christmas Tree is a religious symbol after all


whell
12-06-2012, 12:24 PM
Take THAT! All you folks who think that Christmas Trees is just a mis-applied pagan symbol, I guess you don't know what you're talking about!!

http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_22133907/seniors-decry-ban-christmas-tree-their-complex-newhall

Anybody wanna take bets about whether or not the management company were Obama voters or not? :rolleyes: :D :p

piece-itpete
12-06-2012, 12:37 PM
Is it just me, or are people getting stupider every day?

Pete

BlueStreak
12-06-2012, 12:47 PM
Yes, yes, the "War on Christmas" is real and you just proved it.....well, not really.

I voted for Obama-twice. Wanna see a picture of my tree?

Dave

BlueStreak
12-06-2012, 12:54 PM
Just out of curiosity;

If the management group owns that property, don't they have the right to determine what sort of decorations will or won't be displayed on their property?

Come on, now. Where is that staunch rightwing defense of private property rights?

Can't all of those old folks just go live somewhere else if they don't like it?

Hmmmmmm.....?;)

Regards,
Dave

JJIII
12-06-2012, 12:58 PM
Just out of curiosity;

If the management group owns that property, don't they have the right to determine what sort of decorations will or won't be displayed on their property?

Come on, now. Where is that staunch rightwing defense of private property rights?

Can't all of those old folks just go live somewhere else if they don't like it?

Hmmmmmm.....?;)

Regards,
Dave

Yes and yes.

JJIII
12-06-2012, 12:58 PM
Is it just me, or are people getting stupider every day?

Pete

No and yes.

BlueStreak
12-06-2012, 12:59 PM
Yes and yes.

Thanks.

Dave

whell
12-06-2012, 01:00 PM
Just out of curiosity;

If the management group owns that property, don't they have the right to determine what sort of decorations will or won't be displayed on their property?

Come on, now. Where is that staunch rightwing defense of private property rights?

Can't all of those old folks just go live somewhere else if they don't like it?

Hmmmmmm.....?;)

Regards,
Dave

One can defend private property rights while point out stupidity.

BlueStreak
12-06-2012, 01:01 PM
What stupidity?

ebacon
12-06-2012, 01:06 PM
Just out of curiosity;

If the management group owns that property, don't they have the right to determine what sort of decorations will or won't be displayed on their property?

Come on, now. Where is that staunch rightwing defense of private property rights?

Can't all of those old folks just go live somewhere else if they don't like it?

Hmmmmmm.....?;)

Regards,
Dave

A good lawyer could muddy the waters by arguing that the home runs on government money and therefore performs a quasi-governmental function. As such it the home must provide its government sponsored patients some free speech/free religion rights.

But at the end of the day, yeah, I think it's a stupid debate. The person that complained to management should be ratted out and made to answer to his neighbors as to why his opinion is soooo much more important than the group that wants the tree. And you know that there was only one complainant and he's a know-it-all douchebag.

Boreas
12-06-2012, 01:06 PM
Take THAT! All you folks who think that Christmas Trees is just a mis-applied pagan symbol, I guess you don't know what you're talking about!!

http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_22133907/seniors-decry-ban-christmas-tree-their-complex-newhall

Anybody wanna take bets about whether or not the management company were Obama voters or not? :rolleyes: :D :p

Obama voters? Hell, they were probably Obama Administration operatives, part of the Acorn Underground!

Whell, you'll latch on to anything, won't you? Get a freakin' life, man!

And you lost so deal with it!

John

piece-itpete
12-06-2012, 01:06 PM
Careful Dave - they'll be coming to revoke your party membership card ;)

Pete

piece-itpete
12-06-2012, 01:08 PM
No and yes.

http://www.welshbikers.co.uk/forum/Smileys/default/smiley_two_thumbs_up.gif

Boreas
12-06-2012, 01:13 PM
Oh, and how exactly does this refute the assertion that, like the holiday season itself, the Christmas tree is indeed a pagan symbol that was appropriated by the early Church to assert its ascendancy over indiginous pagan beliefs? All that's evident is the degree of success which the Church achieved.

John

BlueStreak
12-06-2012, 01:25 PM
A good lawyer could muddy the waters by arguing that the home runs on government money and therefore performs a quasi-governmental function. As such it the home must provide its government sponsored patients some free speech/free religion rights.

But at the end of the day, yeah, I think it's a stupid debate. The person that complained to management should be ratted out and made to answer to his neighbors as to why his opinion is soooo much more important than the group that wants the tree. And you know that there was only one complainant and he's a know-it-all douchebag.

He could also argue that if the home runs on government funding, that the tree, as Whell so merrily pointed out, is a religious symbol and we have a "separation of church and state" issue on our hands.;)

Regards,
Dave

BlueStreak
12-06-2012, 01:27 PM
Careful Dave - they'll be coming to revoke your party membership card ;)

Pete

I possess no such cards.

My registration card reads; Independent.

Regards,
Dave

ebacon
12-06-2012, 01:32 PM
He could also argue that if the home runs on government funding, that the tree, as Whell so merrily pointed out, is a religious symbol and we have a "separation of church and state" issue on our hands.;)

Regards,
Dave

My recollection is that these cases, at least when there is government turf involved, get resolved by an all or nothing ruling. Either the courts say no religious symbols or, if religious symbols are allowed, then equal space has to be set aside for each group that wants space. For example they may each be allowed 1 sq yd of floor space or 2 ft of shelf space or 1 sq yd of wall space or . . .

It's silly that adults argue over this shit.

ebacon
12-06-2012, 01:33 PM
Except if Objectivists wanted space. I would ask the court to burn them at the stake. hehe.

d-ray657
12-06-2012, 01:41 PM
Is it just me, or are people getting stupider every day?

Pete

If you read the comments section, it would support your observation that people are getting more stupid. What kind of perverted logic leads to the conclusion that a decision by corporate bureaucrats is the president's fault?

Regards,

D-Ray

piece-itpete
12-06-2012, 01:47 PM
It's Obama's fault because the left is anti Christian, and he's the head of the party. See? :D

I possess no such cards.

My registration card reads; Independent.

Regards,
Dave

Hmmmm.... I just don't buy it ;)



It's silly that adults argue over this shit.

Absolutely agreed!

Pete

icenine
12-06-2012, 01:53 PM
It's Obama's fault because the left is anti Christian, and he's the head of the party. See? :D



Hmmmm.... I just don't buy it ;)



Absolutely agreed!

Pete

You and your Molotov cocktails....:D

BlueStreak
12-06-2012, 02:21 PM
My recollection is that these cases, at least when there is government turf involved, get resolved by an all or nothing ruling. Either the courts say no religious symbols or, if religious symbols are allowed, then equal space has to be set aside for each group that wants space. For example they may each be allowed 1 sq yd of floor space or 2 ft of shelf space or 1 sq yd of wall space or . . .

It's silly that adults argue over this shit.

Yes, it is.

Regards,
Dave

bobabode
12-06-2012, 02:35 PM
Awww, poor wherlly..no equal time for the menorah? :rolleyes: I think I'll shoot some skeet Xmas eve. Reindeer & lead sausage anyone?:p:D

piece-itpete
12-06-2012, 03:28 PM
Cocktails for everyone! :) With Bob's special snacks :D

A local municipality has a menorah on display at city hall. I wonder how long it'll be before the atheists hyperventilate and bring in the ACLU.

Pete

finnbow
12-06-2012, 10:56 PM
I can't get excited one way or the other about a petty dispute between an apartment owner and his tenants 3000 miles away from me about a Christmas tree. Articles about silly, meaningless stuff such as this are written to elicit feelings of anger, resentment and persecution among some readers. I guess I'm not as easily manipulated as the OP.

BlueStreak
12-06-2012, 11:25 PM
Cocktails for everyone! :) With Bob's special snacks :D

A local municipality has a menorah on display at city hall. I wonder how long it'll be before the atheists hyperventilate and bring in the ACLU.

Pete

So what if they do? Will it somehow mean the government is attacking Judaism?
The "War on Channukah"?:rolleyes:

Regards,
Dave

BlueStreak
12-06-2012, 11:46 PM
I think it's all just a bunch of juvenile shit. And, here is the perfect example;

http://www.christianpost.com/news/national-coalition-of-christians-joins-nativity-scene-battle-in-santa-monica-85845/

http://www.charismanews.com/us/34763-atheists-gain-ground-in-nativity-scene-battle

http://nation.foxnews.com/war-christmas/2012/11/30/militant-secularists-lose-battle-oust-nativity-scene

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/12/14/texas-town-braces-for-battle-with-atheists-over-nativity-scene/

http://ideas.time.com/2012/11/26/nativity-scene-battles-atheists-are-now-creating-their-own-displays/

Notice that when the religious icon, in this case nativity scenes, are on private property the courts generally find in favor of the property owner and the nativity scene stays. When it involves public property, the court generally finds in favor of the Atheist plaintiffs and the nativity scene goes.

How many here are smart enough to figure out why this is?

And, can anyone tell me why we must go through it time and again?

Are people really that thick?

Regards,
Dave

bobabode
12-07-2012, 12:12 AM
I think it's all just a bunch of juvenile shit. And, here is the perfect example;

http://www.christianpost.com/news/national-coalition-of-christians-joins-nativity-scene-battle-in-santa-monica-85845/

http://www.charismanews.com/us/34763-atheists-gain-ground-in-nativity-scene-battle

http://nation.foxnews.com/war-christmas/2012/11/30/militant-secularists-lose-battle-oust-nativity-scene

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/12/14/texas-town-braces-for-battle-with-atheists-over-nativity-scene/

http://ideas.time.com/2012/11/26/nativity-scene-battles-atheists-are-now-creating-their-own-displays/

Notice that when the religious icon, in this case nativity scenes, are on private property the courts generally find in favor of the property owner and the nativity scene stays. When it involves public property, the court generally finds in favor of the Atheist plaintiffs and the nativity scene goes.

How many here are smart enough to figure out why this is?

And, can anyone tell me why we must go through it time and again?

Are people really that thick?

Regards,
Dave

That lefty Thomas Jefferson's ideas on the separation of church and state. You know one o' them old timey slaveholders from your state.:)

Other than the fact that some people (even here) are slow learners? No.:rolleyes:

Sadly & apparently, yes.:(

icenine
12-07-2012, 12:22 AM
I can't get excited one way or the other about a petty dispute between an apartment owner and his tenants 3000 miles away from me about a Christmas tree. Articles about silly, meaningless stuff such as this are written to elicit feelings of anger, resentment and persecution among some readers. I guess I'm not as easily manipulated as the OP.

I always think of these news stories as tear drop journalism....just pablum for the local 11 pm news...sort of like those stories about the fire departments rescuing cats out of trees.
I can see with Morsi installing himself as a dictator in Egypt, possible chemical warfare in Syria and the fiscal cliff Whell must be bored. Or so distracted with Michigan going right to lower wages he is giddy with happiness forgot this thread already....

bobabode
12-07-2012, 01:47 AM
Cocktails for everyone! :) With Bob's special snacks :D

A local municipality has a menorah on display at city hall. I wonder how long it'll be before the atheists hyperventilate and bring in the ACLU.

Pete

Awriiight, a little Christmas shine on Pete!

I'll bet they got a cross in addition that menorah somewhere around that place. Maybe a creche? Equal time, ya know? How would a crescent and star make you feel? A little equal time for Ramadan might be in order?

Y'all may not like the separation of church and state but it's written into the constitution. So, set yourself up a constitutional convention and change it, why doncha?:rolleyes:
Funny thing about those conventions, they can go about changing all sorts of things once constituted and not just what they are called for.
We could update the whole damn thing...;) Feelin' lucky?

merrylander
12-07-2012, 06:45 AM
Let whoever wants a tree string the damn lights on it.

piece-itpete
12-07-2012, 08:03 AM
Dave, it's silly, but the atheists aren't? Come'on now, someone driving by the menorah I mentioned is such a blithering idiot that they need to make a federal case out of it?

I'm perfectly OK with the menorah, the cresent, etc.

It might cause many sleepless nights to know the on the Jefferson memorial - a public memorial! - Jefferson is quoted (right there for everyone to see! The awful horror!) mentioning God 7 times.

Better chisel them off. "..can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever . . " - TJ

;) Saw a show long ago, they interviewed some atheists, one spent his free time crossing out 'In God We Trust' off money, and another got mad every time someone said 'God Bless You' when she sneezed :D

Pete

BlueStreak
12-07-2012, 10:44 AM
No they all are. Atheists too. They look for the fight and others now go around deliberately provoking them for the same purpose.....Just to pick a fight. This is what I call; "juvenile shit".

Jefferson was a (somewhat) religious man who spoke of a "....high and impenetrable..." wall of separation between church and state. And for good....heck, GREAT reason. But, because someone carved a quote of his, that contains religious speech, into a piece of granite we now have some people who think this means America is a "Christian Nation"* and it's okay to begin setting up what, to me, looks, sounds and smells like Theocracy.

Before I get too far off on that tangent;

My point is; It is not a so-called "Attack on Christianity" in the greater so-called "War on Religion" to expect the wall of separation to be upheld. So, Atheists resent their tax money being used to advance someone elses religious beliefs.........

What is the big deal? No religious icons on public property. Keep it in the church, temple, mosque and/or at home.

Just what is so hard to understand about that? Why MUST the icon be present on the publically funded structure?:confused:

Regards,
Dave

*(To my mind, this phrase implies exclusivity. A predominant demographic is not exclusivity. It does not mean the dominant religion has any right to assert any influence over others. It's merely a head count.)

bobabode
12-07-2012, 06:09 PM
Dave, it's silly, but the atheists aren't? Come'on now, someone driving by the menorah I mentioned is such a blithering idiot that they need to make a federal case out of it?

I'm perfectly OK with the menorah, the cresent, etc.
Pete

It's really simple. No religious icons anywhere on public property anytime. Why? Because Christians have forced the issue, not atheists or anyone else.

Change the constitution if you don't like it.

wgrr
12-07-2012, 07:35 PM
Dave, it's silly, but the atheists aren't? Come'on now, someone driving by the menorah I mentioned is such a blithering idiot that they need to make a federal case out of it?

I'm perfectly OK with the menorah, the cresent, etc.

It might cause many sleepless nights to know the on the Jefferson memorial - a public memorial! - Jefferson is quoted (right there for everyone to see! The awful horror!) mentioning God 7 times.

Better chisel them off. "..can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever . . " - TJ

;) Saw a show long ago, they interviewed some atheists, one spent his free time crossing out 'In God We Trust' off money, and another got mad every time someone said 'God Bless You' when she sneezed :D

Pete

You need to do a little research on Jefferson and the "quotes" chiselled into his memorial. They are out of context BS "quotes". Jefferson was a Deist who strived to be a Unitarian. God to Jefferson did not mean a Christian God.

Here, wade through this if you please.

http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/quotations-jefferson-memorial

As far as the money goes, "In god We Trust" was on 1800's coins and was not on bills until the 50's. Once again it does not specify a Christian God. It could be Ra the sun good for all I know. :D

wgrr
12-07-2012, 07:52 PM
Take THAT! All you folks who think that Christmas Trees is just a mis-applied pagan symbol, I guess you don't know what you're talking about!!

http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_22133907/seniors-decry-ban-christmas-tree-their-complex-newhall

Anybody wanna take bets about whether or not the management company were Obama voters or not? :rolleyes: :D :p

I think the management, in this case, are assholes.

If you think for one minute nursing homes support democrats I got a bridge over the Golden Gate I want to sell you. They may want Medicare to survive but, they support nothing else Democratic.

Most nursing homes/assisted living homes are owned by large hospitals. If you burp the wrong way they rush you to the hospital....until you run out of money, then they let you die. Don't ask me how I know.

RIP dad after spending a million bucks over ten years in the nursing home.

bobabode
12-07-2012, 07:52 PM
In God We Trust! All others pay cash...:D They forgot the second half.:rolleyes:

Boreas
12-07-2012, 08:05 PM
You need to do a little research on Jefferson and the "quotes" chiselled into his memorial. They are out of context BS "quotes". Jefferson was a Deist who strived to be a Unitarian. God to Jefferson did not mean a Christian God.

Here, wade through this if you please.

http://www.monticello.org/site/jefferson/quotations-jefferson-memorial

As far as the money goes, "In god We Trust" was on 1800's coins and was not on bills until the 50's. Once again it does not specify a Christian God. It could be Ra the sun good for all I know. :D

And then there are all those "Jefferson quotes" floating around not a word of which he ever said. Pathetic, isn't it, what people will do to create an aura of verisimilitude and historical relevance around any old half-baked notion.

John

merrylander
12-08-2012, 06:46 AM
And then there are all those "Jefferson quotes" floating around not a word of which he ever said. Pathetic, isn't it, what people will do to create an aura of verisimilitude and historical relevance around any old half-baked notion.

John

I would surmize that a good 60% of our "history" is made up, such as "The Alamo", etc.:rolleyes:

piece-itpete
12-10-2012, 08:28 AM
It's really simple. No religious icons anywhere on public property anytime. Why? Because Christians have forced the issue, not atheists or anyone else.

Change the constitution if you don't like it.

Yes, the Christians forced the issue by placing the same nativity scenes they've been using since forever where they always placed them at the time they always did :rolleyes:

It cracks me up, the backflips done by those who would rewrite history to their liking.

Pete

Boreas
12-10-2012, 09:17 AM
It's really simple. No religious icons anywhere on public property anytime. Why? Because Christians have forced the issue, not atheists or anyone else.

Change the constitution if you don't like it.

Yes, the Christians forced the issue by placing the same nativity scenes they've been using since forever where they always placed them at the time they always did :rolleyes:

It cracks me up, the backflips done by those who would rewrite history to their liking.

Pete

You're both right.

Sorta. Pete, nobody's trying to rewrite history. It's just that the secularists, and many religious people, believe that public displays of religious nature, located on public property, are a violation of church/state separation. That goes for the Ten Commandments displayed in a courthouse or a manger scene in the lobby of a public library. The courts agree.

John

bobabode
12-10-2012, 05:47 PM
Yes, the Christians forced the issue by placing the same nativity scenes they've been using since forever where they always placed them at the time they always did :rolleyes:

It cracks me up, the backflips done by those who would rewrite history to their liking.

Pete

OoooOOooo, snaap!

Just cause the thundering thumpers have gotten away with it doesn't make it right, Pete. No rewriter here and I suspect you know that. Krappy Kringle, back atcha...now get off of my lawn.:rolleyes:

piece-itpete
12-11-2012, 08:15 AM
I fart in your general direction.

:D

Wonder why just about every community in the US displayed the evil corrupting scene? ;)

Pete

Boreas
12-11-2012, 09:25 AM
Wonder why just about every community in the US displayed the evil corrupting scene? ;)

Pete

Because the dominant culture here is Christian. It was an example of "the tyranny of the majority" though we Christians didn't realize it since we weren't the ones being imposed upon.

It took a rather obnoxious and generally unattractive atheist from Baltimore to change all that. Madalyn Murray O'Hair (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madalyn_Murray_O%27Hair)'s campaign to end school prayer was the camel's nose under the tent. After that watershed, people began to examine all official manifestations of religion in American culture.

Really, there's no turning back now, nor should there be. Officially sanctioned sectarianism or denominationalism is an affront (admittedly, sometimes only a little one) to those of other - or no - sects and denominations. Moreover, it's a violation of the US Constitution.

I've often wondered whether O'Hair was the real problem. She really was an obnoxious person. If someone more appealing, particularly if that person were a practicing Christian or even a cleric, might have been a better salesman.

John

piece-itpete
12-11-2012, 09:41 AM
Thank goodness she saved us from the evils of Christianity. Silly Founders, they didn't even know what the Constitution said. Bless those wise judges, saving us from ourselves!

Wait, scratch that. See how this insidious Christianity creeps into the very fabric of society, corrupting everything it touches? :eek: :D

Can we dig her up and take care of that Menorah I mentioned? It deeply offends me and is an effront to everything this wonderful country stands for. Think of the children!

;)

OK I'll stop now lol.

Pete

Boreas
12-11-2012, 10:09 AM
Can we dig her up and take care of that Menorah I mentioned?

Digging her up would be relatively easy. Reassembling her not so much.

John

piece-itpete
12-11-2012, 10:22 AM
Yikes! That's awful.

Pete

BlueStreak
12-11-2012, 11:02 AM
I think the management, in this case, are assholes.

If you think for one minute nursing homes support democrats I got a bridge over the Golden Gate I want to sell you. They may want Medicare to survive but, they support nothing else Democratic.

Most nursing homes/assisted living homes are owned by large hospitals. If you burp the wrong way they rush you to the hospital....until you run out of money, then they let you die. Don't ask me how I know.

RIP dad after spending a million bucks over ten years in the nursing home.

My father refused to cooperate at the assisted care place because he believed old people are, in his words, "....nothing but cash cows to these people." At one point a nurse told him, "If you don't take your medications, you'll die." To which he replied, "Really? Ya think? I think that stuff IS death. Get the hell away from me with it." (He believed the "medication" they give people in the old folks home is intended to "zombify" them---make them easier to deal with. He referred to mangement at the home as "the perpetrators".)

Ironically, the nurses thought the world of him, some of them came to his funeral in tears. One said, "Your father was a wonderful man, sharp as a tack and stood up for himself right to the very end." I took that as validation for his notions.

Regards,
Dave

piece-itpete
12-11-2012, 11:20 AM
I like your dad.

Pete

merrylander
12-11-2012, 03:07 PM
All those folks who love to put up nativity scenes around this time probably could care less about christianity, Matthew had summat to say about this sort of behaviour.:rolleyes:

bobabode
12-15-2012, 08:39 PM
OK I'll stop now lol.

Pete

Cross your heart and hope to die?:D

piece-itpete
12-17-2012, 08:50 AM
LOL! I'll cross my heart but hope to live a while longer :)

Pete

bobabode
12-21-2012, 08:50 PM
LOL! I'll cross my heart but hope to live a while longer :)

Pete


Ahhh, yes. Hope springs eternal. I've got all sorts of platitudes this week, try the veal, I mean soylent green. lol.