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bobabode
12-07-2012, 05:38 PM
Seventy one years ago on this date the empire of Japan bombed and strafed Pearl Harbor and other military installations on Oahu.:(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor

wgrr
12-07-2012, 06:17 PM
"A date that will live in infamy." Japan certainly woke up a sleeping giant that day.

Boreas
12-07-2012, 06:21 PM
"A date that will live in infamy." Japan certainly woke up a sleeping giant that day.

Just as Admiral Yamamoto predicted.

John

Bigerik
12-07-2012, 06:31 PM
Amazing what a different country America was then. If the manufacturing base then was what it is now, America would have lost the war.

icenine
12-07-2012, 09:18 PM
Amazing what a different country America was then. If the manufacturing base then was what it is now, America would have lost the war.

Maybe initially we would have been behind but as Bob Dylan says we are a Slow Train Coming. You have to remember in 1941 we were a much more rural nation than we are now. And our industry was forced to change and undergo a massive readjustment to win the war, said readjustment providing the base for the boom in middle class prosperity a decade later in the 50s. I always bet on America.

bobabode
12-07-2012, 10:56 PM
Maybe initially we would have been behind but as Bob Dylan says we are a Slow Train Coming. You have to remember in 1941 we were a much more rural nation than we are now. And our industry was forced to change and undergo a massive readjustment to win the war, said readjustment providing the base for the boom in middle class prosperity a decade later in the 50s. I always bet on America.

Yep. Anyone who thinks that we would have sued for peace with Tojo after the sneak attack on Pearl is not a good student of history. Maybe there is something to some of the conspiracy that we had some advance notice. Our flattops weren't in the barn at the time so I can understand that but no one has been able to find any evidence, so it will remain a mystery. We may have been just lucky.
I disagree with Erik's rash asessment that we would not have won that war with our present industrial base. It ignores the human factor in this country, IMO. We would put aside our differences and pulled down double hours to make it work. Would it take extra time? Of course. Would we negotiate after something like the Pearl Harbor attack, fuck no- period. It isn't just bravado, it's fact. People were thinking we were no big thing during the thirties with the Great Depresion kicking our asses but when somebody sucker punches us? We get mean.:mad: Just ask that f**ker Bin Laden.:cool:

:)As I recall from what I've read so do you guys uphill of the 49th - you pantywaist Canadian.:D Can't forget those Aussie's and Kiwi's, either...

icenine
12-07-2012, 11:44 PM
Most Def Bro!!!!:)

Dondilion
12-08-2012, 10:36 AM
No way could the Japanese overcome the industrial superiority of the US. I guess their military had bought into the David/Goliath mystique in view of their unexpected mauling of the Chinese (1894) and Russians (1905).

Moreover probably they had still not gotten over Commodore Perry.

whell
12-08-2012, 11:46 AM
If you ever have the chance to go to Hawaii, visit the USS Arizona Memorial. Very, very moving experience. The thought of standing on the watery grave of hundreds of young sailors, most of whom woke up that morning and had no idea that they had woken up for the last time, brought me to tears.

CarlV
12-08-2012, 03:40 PM
Amazing what a different country America was then. If the manufacturing base then was what it is now, America would have lost the war.

Yes but a world war today on that scale would be a nuclear one of which we are indeed prepared for.


Carl

bhunter
12-10-2012, 03:21 PM
Yep. Anyone who thinks that we would have sued for peace with Tojo after the sneak attack on Pearl is not a good student of history. Maybe there is something to some of the conspiracy that we had some advance notice. Our flattops weren't in the barn at the time so I can understand that but no one has been able to find any evidence, so it will remain a mystery. We may have been just lucky.


My grandfather still believes that there was knowledge of the coming attack. He was in the Phillippine Islands and on shore the night before the attack. MPs came and gathered up all the off ship sailors and they promptly steamed away avoiding the impending attack on the PI. He was in the Asiatic Fleet and was in Shanghai back in 1938-9 in close proximity to the invading Japanese. It wasn't unusual for American and Japanese soldiers to be in different bars and bordellos within sight of one another. IIRC, about 3 million Chinese were killed by the Japanese since the 1931 invasion.

Boreas
12-10-2012, 03:35 PM
My grandfather still believes that there was knowledge of the coming attack. He was in the Phillippine Islands and on shore the night before the attack. MPs came and gathered up all the off ship sailors and they promptly steamed away avoiding the impending attack on the PI. He was in the Asiatic Fleet and was in Shanghai back in 1938-9 in close proximity to the invading Japanese. It wasn't unusual for American and Japanese soldiers to be in different bars and bordellos within sight of one another. IIRC, about 3 million Chinese were killed by the Japanese since the 1931 invasion.

The night before the invasion would have been the night of December 7th, 1941. Pearl Harbor had already been attacked. It's likely that your grandfather was evacuated on the strength of that and perhaps because American PBYs had spotted the invasion fleet headed to the Philippines.

John

bhunter
12-10-2012, 03:56 PM
The night before the invasion would have been the night of December 7th, 1941. Pearl Harbor had already been attacked. It's likely that your grandfather was evacuated on the strength of that and perhaps because American PBYs had spotted the invasion fleet headed to the Philippines.

John

I suspect that he was referring to the night before the attack of Pearl Harbor. My grandfather isn't likely to make such an obvious mistake since he wrote about it in real time. The PI was attacked on the 8 December 1941 local time which was hours after the Pearl attack on December 7 local time IIRC. My grandfather asserts that his ship left the PI the night before the Pearl attack which would make it December 6th at Pearl and December 7th in Cavite.

bobabode
12-10-2012, 04:11 PM
The night before the invasion would have been the night of December 7th, 1941. Pearl Harbor had already been attacked. It's likely that your grandfather was evacuated on the strength of that and perhaps because American PBYs had spotted the invasion fleet headed to the Philippines.

John

I would think an old shellback with that funny award you get for crossing the International Date Line wouldn't get his dates mixed up unless he was under the thrall of those beauteous Phillipino ladies of the night and rum - at the time.;)
+1 on the Catalina flying boats (PBY) spotting some funny goings on.

I forget the name of that patrol boat on the Yellow? Pearl? river prior to WW2 but that incident had to be in the fore of any USN GWF sailor's mind leading up to Dec.7th.

Boreas
12-10-2012, 04:20 PM
I suspect that he was referring to the night before the attack of Pearl Harbor. My grandfather isn't likely to make such an obvious mistake since he wrote about it in real time. The PI was attacked on the 8 December 1941 local time which was hours after the Pearl attack on December 7 local time IIRC. My grandfather asserts that his ship left the PI the night before the Pearl attack which would make it December 6th at Pearl and December 7th in Cavite.

The date line caught me out. I forgot that the Philippines were on the other side of it.

John

BlueStreak
12-10-2012, 04:24 PM
My Dad, a Navy aircraft mechanic, was part of the recovery crew sent to Pearl, arriving just days after the attack. He spent most of the war there working on battle damaged airplanes. He didn't talk about it much until shortly before his death.

I hate war.

Regards,
Dave

bobabode
12-10-2012, 04:48 PM
My Dad, a Navy aircraft mechanic, was part of the recovery crew sent to Pearl, arriving just days after the attack. He spent most of the war there working on battle damaged airplanes. He didn't talk about it much until shortly before his death.

I hate war.

Regards,
Dave

I'll bet he had some choice words about the decision to bunch up aircraft on the tarmac to protect them from Hawaiian saboteurs. I would be interested in hearing what he had to say, if you don't mind Dave. Thanks, Bob.