Gun proliferation and our future.

[BlueStreak]

Is there anyone else here who believes the "gun culture" situation here, in the Good ol' US of A will lead to a self fulfilled prophecy?

There is ittle doubt that gun related violence is becoming a horrendous problem here, in the US. I'm talking overall, not just terrible tragedies like at Sandy Hook. And, with each new tragedy and every new release of worsening statistics comes a call for tighter controls which is inevitably followed by legions of people lining up to buy more guns.

It didn't take much research last week to discover that my beloved country is ranked among such wonderful places as drug cartel ridden Columbia and Nicaraugua and third world African nations that are pretty much anarchies overrun with ruthless warlords and their gangs of armed thugs. More Americans died by gunshot at home than the number of soldiers lost in Afghanistan in the same period of time. We have a very serious problem. Yet, it is doubtfull that anything at all will be done about it.

To my mind, it is because we have an politically powerful organization, armed with an archaic constitutional amendment and millions of dues paying members who insist that GREATER proliferation of such weapons is the answer, and that the government and law enforcement is at the heart of the problem. They tell us that Americans are killing each other because of mental illness, lack of school prayer, the welfare system, drug addiction, cheese mold and manifold other reasons that range from barely probable to utterly absurd.

I look and see that these weapons are often purchased legally, which tells me that the current screening process is not working and needs to be updated and tightened. Then I am told "they" will get them anyhow. Yep, and that's because every gun that ends up on the black market and/or was legal at some point......................................before it was stolen or sold into the undergorund by unscrupulous individuals.

Yet, suggest that ANYTHING be done about ANY of this and you will be assailed by the NRA and it's minions. Why? Because, they say; 'There are so many guns out there that more people should have more powerful weapons and more of them to protect themselves from the heavily armed lunatics who and criminals who have them.'

To get to the point;

Tragedy-talk of tightened controls-increased gun sales-more guns fall into the wrong hands-more tragedy.......................

Am I the only one who sees the cycle here? Is it the pigheadedness of the NRA and its members that will eventually lead to the government being forced to take action? Action that will then be seen as fulfillment of wingnut prophecy that the government is coming to take their guns? While the truth is that all along they had the power to prevent it, by simply being more cooperative in finding more agreeable ways to curb the flow of guns into unfortunate situations and being more reasonable about the type of weapons we allow into the open market?

I'm afraid so. I'm thinking they will keep this bullshit up until there is no choice but to overpower them and do what must be done.

Thoughts?

Dave

[merrylander]

To start it is not only that we outlaw military style weapons, the existing ones must be rounded up.

That of course will start the very thing you fear, but what other course is there? Just sit back and wait for the next one?

I spend all my time praying that our former daughter-in-law does not get custody of the girls because she wants to brring them down to Jacksonville NC after she marries her boy toy marine. I would not even consider raising children in this country, and certainly not in that hell hole.

[Boreas]

Is there anyone else here who believes the "gun culture" situation here, in the Good ol' US of A will lead to a self fulfilled prophecy?

There is ittle doubt that gun related violence is becoming a horrendous problem here, in the US. I'm talking overall, not just terrible tragedies like at Sandy Hook. And, with each new tragedy and every new release of worsening statistics comes a call for tighter controls which is inevitably followed by legions of people lining up to buy more guns.

It didn't take much research last week to discover that my beloved country is ranked among such wonderful places as drug cartel ridden Columbia and Nicaraugua and third world African nations that are pretty much anarchies overrun with ruthless warlords and their gangs of armed thugs. More Americans died by gunshot at home than the number of soldiers lost in Afghanistan in the same period of time. We have a very serious problem. Yet, it is doubtfull that anything at all will be done about it.

To my mind, it is because we have an politically powerful organization, armed with an archaic constitutional amendment and millions of dues paying members who insist that GREATER proliferation of such weapons is the answer, and that the government and law enforcement is at the heart of the problem. They tell us that Americans are killing each other because of mental illness, lack of school prayer, the welfare system, drug addiction, cheese mold and manifold other reasons that range from barely probable to utterly absurd.

I look and see that these weapons are often purchased legally, which tells me that the current screening process is not working and needs to be updated and tightened. Then I am told "they" will get them anyhow. Yep, and that's because every gun that ends up on the black market and/or was legal at some point......................................before it was stolen or sold into the undergorund by unscrupulous individuals.

Yet, suggest that ANYTHING be done about ANY of this and you will be assailed by the NRA and it's minions. Why? Because, they say; 'There are so many guns out there that more people should have more powerful weapons and more of them to protect themselves from the heavily armed lunatics who and criminals who have them.'

To get to the point;

Tragedy-talk of tightened controls-increased gun sales-more guns fall into the wrong hands-more tragedy.......................

Am I the only one who sees the cycle here? Is it the pigheadedness of the NRA and its members that will eventually lead to the government being forced to take action? Action that will then be seen as fulfillment of wingnut prophecy that the government is coming to take their guns? While the truth is that all along they had the power to prevent it, by simply being more cooperative in finding more agreeable ways to curb the flow of guns into unfortunate situations and being more reasonable about the type of weapons we allow into the open market?

I'm afraid so. I'm thinking they will keep this bullshit up until there is no choice but to overpower them and do what must be done.

Thoughts?

Dave

We're there now.

John

[icenine]

Well Dave,
American gun ownership is so ingrained in our culture I believe it will never be taken away. In the nineteenth century many Americans were armed, just as today. What is sad is that you are probably correct....this is just a cycle that will never stop.
Your average American thinks that IT WILL NOT HAPPEN TO ME IT WILL HAPPEN TO THE OTHER GUY. We are in denial. That teacher in Sandy Hook bought a AR-15. She never thought her mentally ill 18 year old son would decide to kill her and a bunch of first graders too. There may have been warning signs there may have not been. The point is her 18 year old son had access to machine guns. That is why those children are dead today.
If you are one of those who want machines guns and 100 round drums then you are basically saying the price of innocent children is worth the cost of having them stay legal. I just hope none of your children are shot dead with a machine gun. But that is the state of America today.
Any clown who thinks the Federal Government is bad or out to attack our freedoms or put us in concentration camps is an ignorant fool who has never been outside the nation and seen how other governments treat their citizens. These "preppers" do not know how good they have it. But I see critical thought and "prepper mentality" as mutually exclusive. I am almost at the point where I am prejudiced not against race, religion, sexual orientation, class etc, but whether or not a person is ignorant enough to believe in fantasies propagated by the Tea Party and NRA leadership. Somebody name an actual Tea Party intellectual....NOT A CONSERVATIVE intellectual like William F Buckley or even say Ayn Rand (sorry).
I have read EC Comics, Stephen King, J.D. Salinger, Mad Magazine, comic books, watched tons of violent movies, read tons of violent books, played video games. Have never killed anyone.
The only thing that may save us is when the population starts to become less white and the Democrats regain the house in the next few years....but I could be optimistic.

[ebacon]

There is certainly a problem.

I think the NRA could help by:

-not calling teenagers with mental problems "monsters".
-advocating for requiring that guns be kept in safes or trigger locked unless the owner has a CCW, and even then limiting the CCW owner to two on his person. If the guns are not on his person then they should also be trigger locked or in a safe.
- reminding people that they are more likely to shoot someone they know than an intruder.
- making a plea to the media to cool it with divisive political speech and the NRA do the same
- focusing on the shooting sports and less on how grandma saved herself with a gun (this just scares readers into believing it is more likely than not that they will get cornered in their houses)
- advocating for a buy back program upon the death of gun owners

The last item is one that just popped into my head. It stemmed from a conversation that dad and I had a long time ago. He expressed concern that some day his guns would be used to commit crimes after he and I are dead an no one gives a crap about them anymore. A buy back program upon death of the owner could relieve heirs of the headaches or worries associated with inheriting guns they don't want to be responsible for. The buyers could be gun manufacturers and they could tack a buyback surcharge onto the selling price of each gun sold, much like a bottle deposit. The surcharge could be a reasonable percentage of the selling price, say 2% assuming that in any given year 2% of guns will belong to deceased owners. The federal government could hold the money and require periodic adjustments to the rate to keep the program solvent.

Such a system would let gun owners keep the guns in the family so long as they have interest. The tradeoff is that when they buy a gun it would cost them an extra $10 for each $500 worth of gun they buy. That's less than a box of ammo. Seems win-win to me.

Just thinking out loud.

[hillbilly]

Dave, I do have some thoughts on that.

If liberals are tied of seeing people die as they keep saying so, then why are they wanting to spark something by wanting to use force to collect guns? Do you really think people will just smile and gladly hand them over? Jesus Christ yes I KNOW THE MILITARY COULD OVER POWER THE PEOPLE AND TAKE EVERY GUN. But, look at how many people in this country would die in the process trying to defend what they hold dear.

Is that really what yall are hoping to see? All the 'Right Wing Nuts' ( as yall call them ) gone.. so all thats left is a nation of defenseless people with no way of protecting themselves from the MANY CROOKS that will always have connections to continue buying guns on the black market?

I'm trying very hard to speak nice, hard as it is being slapped in the face time and time again with this crap when it is not me, nor my type that shoot up innocent people.

As for Rob. Rob, please tell me why you consider NC a shithole, and why a Marine is not good enough to raise a child related to YOU? I'm not sure I understand this correctly.

[d-ray657]

It seems to me that if what you are suggesting is true, that guns - particularly military style assault weapons - are what people "hold dear" then we really do have a problem in this country. I suggest that we should hold children and safe streets more dear than highly efficient killing hardware.

Regards,

D-Ray

[merrylander]

As for Rob. Rob, please tell me why you consider NC a shithole, and why a Marine is not good enough to raise a child related to YOU? I'm not sure I understand this correctly.

Not all of NC just Jacksonville, domestic violence there is higher than the national average, teen pregnancies are high, it is simply not a family town. I know a marine's daugher who spent time there, and she had nothing nice to say about it.

Look marines get moved about quite frequently and she said that it was quite traumatic. She has no childhood friends because they were never in one place long enough. Two years here, two years there

This particular marine may be a nice fellow but he is ten years her junior which Is why I call him her boy-toy. Besides he is not their father, our son is, and a damned good one too.

Suppose he gets posted to Libya at the consulate, is that a place to take two under ten girls. He is currently in Brussels but before that he was in Sri Lanka.

Our granddaughters are currently in a stable environment with excellent schools, access to museums and other culteral events, J'ville is a culteral wasteland. I shudder to think of that woman getting sole custody as she has never in her life thought of anyone but herself, she is only trying for it to spite our son.

Florence's first husband was a marine and abusive which was why she divorced him.

[bobabode]

Gimme some low yield neutron bomb/ landmines for my front yard, I'll have to be a shut in from now on with lead siding on my home but what the hell? Sure is better than being shot up from giving some big balls redneck the one fingered salute after he tries to run me into the center divider here in freewayland.

Hillbilly, Ummmm. That guy in Connecticut? His Mom was people just like you mentioned- a responsible NRA gun owner-until her son put four rounds into her head and went back to his elementary school to get even for his problems not fitting in. We're seeing a tidal shift in attitude precisely because most gun owners are not responsible people using trigger locks, gun safes with separate ammo safes.

Sorry that you feel slapped around but the alternative is innocent fellow Americans, (who haven't bought into your gun culture and frankly, IMO paranoia that the jack booted thugs are out to getcha,) are getting murdered daily. It's reality check time, Hill William.

Sorry if I seem unsympathetic but it's because frankly I'm not anymore. We've had enough with this crazy parsing of the second amendment. "Well regulated" seems to never mean crap to the people who think the have some god given right to military grade weaponry. As a result of this? You may lose your right to have any guns of any kind, by your own actions.

Don't blame us lefty liberals, we just don't want to be shot by crazy people.

[BlueStreak]

Dave, I do have some thoughts on that.

If liberals are tied of seeing people die as they keep saying so, then why are they wanting to spark something by wanting to use force to collect guns? Do you really think people will just smile and gladly hand them over? Jesus Christ yes I KNOW THE MILITARY COULD OVER POWER THE PEOPLE AND TAKE EVERY GUN. But, look at how many people in this country would die in the process trying to defend what they hold dear.

Is that really what yall are hoping to see? All the 'Right Wing Nuts' ( as yall call them ) gone.. so all thats left is a nation of defenseless people with no way of protecting themselves from the MANY CROOKS that will always have connections to continue buying guns on the black market?

I'm trying very hard to speak nice, hard as it is being slapped in the face time and time again with this crap when it is not me, nor my type that shoot up innocent people.

As for Rob. Rob, please tell me why you consider NC a shithole, and why a Marine is not good enough to raise a child related to YOU? I'm not sure I understand this correctly.

That's the whole point. It's not "LIBERALS" that are bringing this about....IT'S THE NRA AND IT'S MEMBERSHIP and the intransigent nature of their position. We can't make or change any laws, or take any bold steps because they keep getting in the way. You can't even speak of it without the NRA throwing a fit and millions of members throwing money at them. The rest of us just want to live in a non-violent society. We could care less that law abiding citizens have guns....if that's where the guns would stay. It's what happens when...............

How do guns get on the "black market", Dave? Are the criminals manufacturing them? No, they're not, are they? Your "type" is selling guns at gun shows with no backround checks. Your "type" is having weapons stolen from them.....this is how they end up on the "black market".

Remember, this latest creep stole the weapons from his mother----a legal owner. So, what do we do? Just accept the slaughter? Recently, in my area, a 12 year old was caught waiving a gun around at school, that he stole from his parents. Fortunately no shooting occured.

It's as simple as this;

The more there are, the harder it will be to keep them OUT of the hands of the bad people with conditions as they are. Like it or not, eventually something will have to change and the longer we put it off, the more urgent the situatio will become. The more urgent it becomes, the more Draconian the solution will be. If gun enthusiasts want to avoid that, then they need to start helping find a solution and stop obstructing.

Does that help you understand my position?

Regards,
Dave

[BlueStreak]

It seems to me that if what you are suggesting is true, that guns - particularly military style assault weapons - are what people "hold dear" then we really do have a problem in this country. I suggest that we should hold children and safe streets more dear than highly efficient killing hardware.

Regards,

D-Ray

And, there it is.

Regards,
Dave

[JJIII]

[QUOTE=merrylander;140112 I know a marine's daugher who spent time there, and she had nothing nice to say about it.



. I shudder to think of that woman getting sole custody as she has never in her life thought of anyone but herself, she is only trying for it to spite our son.

Florence's first husband was a marine and abusive which was why she divorced him.[/QUOTE]

I suppose none of this influences your feelings? Are you painting with a broad brush here?

[bobabode]

I posted this in another thread, too edgy and ugly? Well, my apologies. Twenty tiny little bodies full of bullet holes and exit wounds the size of dinner plates is truly ugly.

"We have seen the last dying gasp of wingnuttery today courtesy of the NRA's Wayne Lapierre. The sputtering, lurching, trembling and drooling monster needs some slaying-methinks. Figuratively speaking, of course.

It is time for you sportsmen & women to stage a coup and take back your organization. Although the brand may be fatally damaged by the mfgs. shills, it still is your duty.

I wonder how soon after the last tiny body has been laid to rest in New Town, Conneticutt will that paragon of virtue, Walmart, have Bushmaster's back on the shelves? I'll bet there is much handwringing and gnashing of teeth this Christmas season over lost profits in the boardrooms all over this land.

This is how the corporatocracy will finally declare that profits are a national security issue of the highest importance. The thrust of LaPierre's argument smacks of fascism. The media is to blame? Oh, please! There goes the first amendment, me boyos. Can you really think that holding on to your pee shooters is far behind? Mass murder is bad for business, doncha know?

Real nice, you gun totin', rootin' tootin, shoot' em up at all costs idjits. You may have got your worst nightmare come true. A federal nightmarish police state that will most certainly take those extensions of your manhood away. Good luck fighting off those HomSec Apache gunships with chainguns and Hellfire missles with your pissant black pipe muzzleloader's that you've fashioned in your basements. Real nice.

See you in those FEMA camps out in the blazing Mojave sun, I'll be the lefty diggin' a slit trench right beside you. Watch out for those scorpions and tarantulas because they'll be the last meal you'll get. Peace, out."

Merry Christmas:(. If I'm too far outta line feel free to delete this post, mods.

[JJIII]

That teacher in Sandy Hook bought a AR-15. She never thought her mentally ill 18 year old son would decide to kill her and a bunch of first graders too. There may have been warning signs there may have not been. The point is her 18 year old son had access to machine guns. That is why those children are dead today.
If you are one of those who want machines guns and 100 round drums then you are basically saying the price of innocent children is worth the cost of having them stay legal. I just hope none of your children are shot dead with a machine gun. But that is the state of America today.



Machine guns? Hundred round magazines? Did I miss something? I thought the Bushmaster (not a machine gun) was left in the car, outside and only handguns were brought inside.

If I'm wrong, correct me. If not, let's please stick to the truth. Hyperbole only makes your case weaker.

[Boreas]

Dave, I do have some thoughts on that.

If liberals are tied of seeing people die as they keep saying so, then why are they wanting to spark something by wanting to use force to collect guns? Do you really think people will just smile and gladly hand them over? Jesus Christ yes I KNOW THE MILITARY COULD OVER POWER THE PEOPLE AND TAKE EVERY GUN. But, look at how many people in this country would die in the process trying to defend what they hold dear.

Is that really what yall are hoping to see? All the 'Right Wing Nuts' ( as yall call them ) gone.. so all thats left is a nation of defenseless people with no way of protecting themselves from the MANY CROOKS that will always have connections to continue buying guns on the black market?

I'm trying very hard to speak nice, hard as it is being slapped in the face time and time again with this crap when it is not me, nor my type that shoot up innocent people.

As for Rob. Rob, please tell me why you consider NC a shithole, and why a Marine is not good enough to raise a child related to YOU? I'm not sure I understand this correctly.

Frankly, HB, this is the sort of hysterical bullshit that gets in the way of any rational discussion. Nobody is talking about taking every gun away and nobody except the gun nuts is talking about killing anyone. In fact, sadly IMO, nobody's talking about taking any guns. What's being discussed is restrictions on the future sales of certain types of military style firearms and ancillary parts.

Go away, calm down and come back when you can talk about this in an intelligent manner.

John

[finnbow]

The horse is so far out of the barn that any sort of gun control in this country is unfortunately an exercise in feel-good futility. Conversely, anyone thinking that gun ownership is somehow a guarantor of freedom has a pretty deranged view of what freedom is.

[Boreas]

Machine guns? Hundred round magazines? Did I miss something? I thought the Bushmaster (not a machine gun) was left in the car, outside and only handguns were brought inside.

If I'm wrong, correct me. If not, let's please stick to the truth. Hyperbole only makes your case weaker.

You're wrong about the Bushmaster. According to the autopsy reports, the wounds inflicted on those poor little kids came from 5.56mm hollow points.

It was reported early on that the Bushmaster was in the car. It was also reported early on that the shooter's mother was a teacher at the school and that he had killed her there. Then she "may have been" a volunteer at the school. It was even first reported that the shooter was the actual shooter's brother. None of this is true.


No, they're not "machine guns" but you know why? The military discovered that by making them semi-auto you could put down a greater volume of effective fire. As full autos they were too hard to control. As semi-autos, the bolt cycles faster than you can pull the trigger so, in other words, it can be fired as fast as (or faster than) you can pull the trigger.

John

[Boreas]

The horse is so far out of the barn that any sort of gun control in this country is unfortunately an exercise in feel-good futility. Conversely, anyone thinking that gun ownership is somehow a guarantor of freedom has a pretty deranged view of what freedom is.

To your first point, I hope you're wrong but I think you're right.

To your second, pretty much the entire far right in this country subscribes to that view and are, yes, deranged enough to prove it by resorting to violence.

John

[BlueStreak]

Frankly, HB, this is the sort of hysterical bullshit that gets in the way of any rational discussion. Nobody is talking about taking every gun and nobody's talking about killing anyone except the gun nuts. In fact, sadly IMO, nobody's talking about taking any guns. What's being discussed is restrictions on the future sales of certain types of military style firearms and ancillary parts.

Go away, calm down and come back when you can talk about this in an intelligent manner.

John

That's right. IMO, anyone who still denies this country has a problem is a fool. We do and that's all there is to it.

Personally, I wouldn't care if every last gun on the planet suddenly disappeared. But, I know that's not going to happen. I'm not stupid.

(I've used them and they're nothing but another tool to me. If I had one it would end up like my circular saw---under a pile of crap on the shelf, collecting dust, rusting and forgotten.)

So, realistically, all I want is for the gun folks to stop being so darn stubborn and touchy about the subject and start helping us find a reasonable way to get this situation under control. Because the longer it goes on, the less favor the gun lobby is going to have with the public. And, that's not good for YOUR case.

Wake up, guys.

Regards,
Dave

[bobabode]

I respectfully disagree with the first assertion and agree with the second, Pat. I just want to feel safe to some little degree. Feeling good would require a time machine, these days. See you all after the 25th, I'm a bit distraught over this.:(

[BlueStreak]

The horse is so far out of the barn that any sort of gun control in this country is unfortunately an exercise in feel-good futility. Conversely, anyone thinking that gun ownership is somehow a guarantor of freedom has a pretty deranged view of what freedom is.

Boy is that ever true. I remember reading something about the "wild west". That the easy part was using the gun to clear the way. The hardest part was taming it, because we had to get everyone over the notion that they could just shoot anyone that pissed them off.

To my mind, the worst tyrant on earth would be the one with a trunk of guns and no laws to keep him in check.

Regards,
Dave

[icenine]

Dave, I do have some thoughts on that.

If liberals are tied of seeing people die as they keep saying so, then why are they wanting to spark something by wanting to use force to collect guns? Do you really think people will just smile and gladly hand them over? Jesus Christ yes I KNOW THE MILITARY COULD OVER POWER THE PEOPLE AND TAKE EVERY GUN. But, look at how many people in this country would die in the process trying to defend what they hold dear.

Is that really what yall are hoping to see? All the 'Right Wing Nuts' ( as yall call them ) gone.. so all thats left is a nation of defenseless people with no way of protecting themselves from the MANY CROOKS that will always have connections to continue buying guns on the black market?

I'm trying very hard to speak nice, hard as it is being slapped in the face time and time again with this crap when it is not me, nor my type that shoot up innocent people.

As for Rob. Rob, please tell me why you consider NC a shithole, and why a Marine is not good enough to raise a child related to YOU? I'm not sure I understand this correctly.

Any assault weapon ban will not result in gun confiscation. It will make any new purchases and manufacture of them and large capacity magazines illegal.
Was there any weapons confiscation during the previous Assault Weapon ban?

When you say anything about the military/or government overpowering the people or taking weapons away you come across as uneducated to me. Sorry but that is how I perceive such comments. Either that or you are a troll.
You will never have to worry about a military person or Federal official killing you with a semi-automatic weapon. If you do have the bad luck to be assaulted by a person with a machine gun it will most likely be one of your friends or relatives.

[Boreas]

Any assault weapon ban will not result in gun confiscation. It will make any new purchases and manufacture of them and large capacity magazines illegal.
Was there any weapons confiscation during the previous Assault Weapon ban?

When you say anything about the military/or government overpowering the people or taking weapons away you come across as uneducated to me. Sorry but that is how I perceive such comments. Either that or you are a troll.
You will never have to worry about a military person or Federal official killing you with a semi-automatic weapon. If you do have the bad luck to be assaulted by a person with a machine gun it will most likely be one of your friends or relatives.

Or one o' them Snoads over in the next holler.

John

[ebacon]

Check out this ridiculousness. A Tennessee law requires that police sell confiscated guns if they are in working order. It's stuff like this that makes me doubt gun buy back programs without knowing all the details.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2010/may/28/crime-guns-meet-their-end/

[icenine]

You're wrong about the Bushmaster. According to the autopsy reports, the wounds inflicted on those poor little kids came from 5.56mm hollow points.

It was reported early on that the Bushmaster was in the car. It was also reported early on that the shooter's mother was a teacher at the school and that he had killed her there. Then she "may have been" a volunteer at the school. It was even first reported that the shooter was the actual shooter's brother. None of this is true.


No, they're not "machine guns" but you know why? The military discovered that by making them semi-auto you could put down a greater volume of effective fire. As full autos they were too hard to control. As semi-autos, the bolt cycles faster than you can pull the trigger so, in other words, it can be fired as fast as (or faster than) you can pull the trigger.

John
Correct the 16 is limited to being a "semi" automatic in that it fires a three round burst only...I have used the fully automatic version in training (firing just blank rounds) and you can easily waste the magazine since it it too easy to empty without extreme firing discipline. I do not care what anyone says the three round burst version is still a machine gun to me.

[Boreas]

Check out this ridiculousness. A Tennessee law requires that police sell confiscated guns if they are in working order. It's stuff like this that makes me doubt gun buy back programs without knowing all the details.

http://www.commercialappeal.com/news/2010/may/28/crime-guns-meet-their-end/

Other places.... you know, where sane people live.... they're required to destroy them.

John

[ebacon]

Other places.... you know, where sane people live.... they're required to destroy them.

John

I did a Google search for photos of guns being melted and the Tennessee story was the only one that came up. There were others but not from the U.S.

The Detroit PD occasionally has anonymous gun buy-backs. I've always wondered what happened to those guns. It would be easy to see crap with cracked barrels, etc going into the hopper, but I have serious doubts that a servicable Colt M1911 would end up there. My suspicion is that come hell or high water that thing will find a way out the back door.

It's not that cops are bad, it's just that humans are humans. An effective smelting system would need to be audited by disinterested parties IMO.

[ebacon]

Bottom line the NRA needs to hold the moral high ground and be a leader in the discussion of how to deal with the life cycle of guns. They last longer than the owners that love them.

Just had another idea. Guns could be manufactured out of metal that is prone to rust. If they aren't maintained then they decay and become useless.

Again. Just thinking out loud.

[BlueStreak]

Correct the 16 is limited to being a "semi" automatic in that it fires a three round burst only...I have use the fully automatic version in training (firing just blank rounds) and you can easily waste the magazine since it it too easy to empty without extreme firing discipline. I do not care what anyone says the three round burst version is still a machine gun to me.

Of course it is. You get three shots for one pull? Hello! That's automatic operation.

[JJIII]

You're wrong about the Bushmaster. According to the autopsy reports, the wounds inflicted on those poor little kids came from 5.56mm hollow points.

I'll take your word on it. Thank you for the correction.

It was reported early on that the Bushmaster was in the car. It was also reported early on that the shooter's mother was a teacher at the school and that he had killed her there. Then she "may have been" a volunteer at the school. It was even first reported that the shooter was the actual shooter's brother. None of this is true.

My point exactly. Let's everybody stick to facts


No, they're not "machine guns" but you know why? The military discovered that by making them semi-auto you could put down a greater volume of effective fire. As full autos they were too hard to control. As semi-autos, the bolt cycles faster than you can pull the trigger so, in other words, it can be fired as fast as (or faster than) you can pull the trigger.

But "machine gun sounds so much worse, doesn't it?

John

There are strong arguments for and against. If we get caught up in word games nobody wins.

[Boreas]

But "machine gun sounds so much worse, doesn't it?

Now you're sounding like LaPierre, getting down in the weeds of nomenclature and trivia about whether they're automatic or semi-automatic, large or small bore, etc., etc., etc. so he doesn't have to confront the actual issues.

People may not know what to call 'em but they sure as hell have been educated as to their effect.

John

[BlueStreak]

It was the kind of gun that he could use to take down 27 teachers and students in less time then it takes to cook a frozen pizza. I don't need to know any more about it, nor do I give two hoots. The issue isn't firearm trivia, it's gun proliferation so widespread and loose that lunatics and children can snatch one or more and menace classmates at the least, wreak bloody murderous havoc at the worst. And this is rapidly becoming a monthly drill.

What do we do about it, folks?

Just accept that America has degenerated into a battleground, arm teachers and buy our kids/grandkids bulletproof backbacks for Christmas?:(

Regards,
Dave

[JJIII]

Now you're sounding like LaPierre, getting down in the weeds of nomenclature and trivia about whether they're automatic or semi-automatic, large or small bore, etc., etc., etc. so he doesn't have to confront the actual issues.

People may not know what to call 'em but they sure as hell have been educated as to their effect.

John

All I'm saying is let's confront the actual issues and not blow everything out with scary nomenclature. The facts are bad enough as it is.

[BlueStreak]

All I'm saying is let's confront the actual issues and not blow everything out with scary nomenclature.

Or try to downplay the horror of what's going on with ridiculous arguments about cottage cheese related deaths nor understate the effectiveness of the firearms crazy people use to perpetrate mass murder.

Okay, so what do you think should be done to improve the situation, John?

[JJIII]

Or try to downplay the horror of what's going on with ridiculous arguments about cottage cheese related deaths nor understate the effectiveness of the firearms crazy people use to perpetrate mass murder.

Okay, so what do you think should be done to improve the situation, John?

I'm not sure. I think a more through background check bears some looking into. Stiffer penalties for negligent storing of firearms in the home. I don't really see the need for 30 round magazines but on the other hand, watch this guy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsLx5ISBXw4

If he can do it so can someone else.
Where do we draw the line? That's where we're going to disagree.

[Oerets]

Coming late to the party so to speak. Just returned home from a family thing. Two of my relatives bought into th hype and got AR's, Mags and hundreds of rounds. The store sold over 5000 rifles since the last shooting. The store is a major national police resupply company and has a large inventory. Well did!


But everyone agreed with my solution. Federal permit/license to own and possess weapons magazines. I'm saying anyone who really thinks that guns will rounded up or banned in this political climate had better wake up. Never happen unless God forbid an event in magnitudes greater happens one so bad that it will be then unstoppable.





Barney

[bobabode]

Anybody know of any sites that are pro gun like PC? Is there such a thing? I'm curious as to what's being said from the other side. Not the NRA, thank you.

[BlueStreak]

I'm not sure. I think a more through background check bears some looking into. Stiffer penalties for negligent storing of firearms in the home. I don't really see the need for 30 round magazines but on the other hand, watch this guy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsLx5ISBXw4

If he can do it so can someone else.
Where do we draw the line? That's where we're going to disagree.

Prolly so.

[BlueStreak]

Coming late to the party so to speak. Just returned home from a family thing. Two of my relatives bought into th hype and got AR's, Mags and hundreds of rounds. The store sold over 5000 rifles since the last shooting. The store is a major national police resupply company and has a large inventory. Well did!


But everyone agreed with my solution. Federal permit/license to own and possess weapons magazines. I'm saying anyone who really thinks that guns will rounded up or banned in this political climate had better wake up. Never happen unless God forbid an event in magnitudes greater happens one so bad that it will be then unstoppable.





Barney

You're right, Barney and that is incredibly sad. I just don't understand why so many people think they NEED them so badly. WTF? To my mind it's insane. Completely insane. Really.

For the first time in my life, I am afraid-----Not of a foreign invader, rather I am afraid of my fellow citizens. I really do think they've lost their minds.

Regards,
Dave

[Oerets]

I can understand my relatives who own assault weapons. All Marines Vets who served overseas in combat. They are the ones I'm not worried about. But they have seen the idiots just like I have that are now able to but a lethal weapon thinking down deep they are going to be Rambo someday and save the world.


Making it a Federal law that requires a standard of care, what could be wrong with that? Not as strict as the full auto but lets face it do you believe that if assult weapons were around in the thirties the would be legal now?




Barney

[BlueStreak]

I can understand my relatives who own assault weapons. All Marines Vets who served overseas in combat. They are the ones I'm not worried about. But they have seen the idiots just like I have that are now able to but a lethal weapon thinking down deep they are going to be Rambo someday and save the world.


Making it a Federal law that requires a standard of care, what could be wrong with that? Not as strict as the full auto but lets face it do you believe that if assult weapons were around in the thirties the would be legal now?




Barney

I guess I can see that. I've thought about getting a gun myself, but it pisses me off that I would have to. I don't care for (about) them and I don't want one. It's just not my thing.

I saw an idiot just the other day, who I think fits your "Rambo" description. In a Mexican restraunt of all places, sitting with the gun in plain sight on his hip and his back to the door. Dumbass might as well have just painted a bullseye on the back of his own head, cuz, if the shooter has his shit together Wannabe Rambo is the first to go. Blow his head off, pop his old lady in the chest, take the gun off of his body and move on. Now, the shooter has two loaded guns, or more. Way to go, Rambo. Thank God you were there to protect us.........:mad:

Regards,
Dave

[Oerets]

My whiskey is getting watered down now and it is late. But I can still see that some people just don't have the right to own a gun. There needs to be some common sense here, come on just because it is in the Constitution that never meant everyone was eligible!



Barney

[d-ray657]

I'm not sure. I think a more through background check bears some looking into. Stiffer penalties for negligent storing of firearms in the home. I don't really see the need for 30 round magazines but on the other hand, watch this guy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsLx5ISBXw4

If he can do it so can someone else.
Where do we draw the line? That's where we're going to disagree.

There are always going to be people with finely honed skills. I imagine that some folks trained in the martial arts could kill a person within a matter of seconds with no weapon. From what I've seen, however, even a klutz can get off several rounds in a matter of a few seconds with a semi-automatic weapon. If we are going to look for accurate nomenclature, how about an extremely efficient high-speed killing machine. Anything misleading about that terminology?

Regards,

D-Ray

[merrylander]

I suppose none of this influences your feelings? Are you painting with a broad brush here?

John I merely wish to see our granddaughters safe and sound where they are now. Is that so bloody terrible?

I was not only going by the lady's description and did a search on J'ville, from what I found she was being generous.

When a 39 year old woman takes up with an under 30 man you have to wonder.

[JJIII]

John I merely wish to see our granddaughters safe and sound where they are now. Is that so bloody terrible?

Not at all.

I was not only going by the lady's description and did a search on J'ville, from what I found she was being generous.

When a 39 year old woman takes up with an under 30 man you have to wonder.

For sure.

[bobabode]

John I merely wish to see our granddaughters safe and sound where they are now. Is that so bloody terrible?

I was not only going by the lady's description and did a search on J'ville, from what I found she was being generous.

When a 39 year old woman takes up with an under 30 man you have to wonder.

"Why... Mrs. Robinson, I believe you're trying to seduce me"!;) I've heard that a womans' sexual needs are at their peak in her thirties, while a man's are in his twenties?


Sorry, Rob. Watching a Monty Python history-lawyers cut, today. My sense of humor is skewed today.:o

[icenine]

I do not understand the sensitivity over the term Machine Gun...that AR-15 looks very much like a machine gun to me...capable of firing more than one round at a time i.e. with one finger pull of the trigger. I assume it is a three round burst ?

Hitler called the genocide of Jews the Final Solution. Did not make the genocide he committed any less of a very terrible thing during World War II...it was still a holocaust.

By the same token using a euphemism for the term Machine Gun does not make the carnage Americans are doing with them to their fellow citizens any less terrible or real.

[JJIII]

I do not understand the sensitivity over the term Machine Gun...that AR-15 looks very much like a machine gun to me...capable of firing more than one round at a time i.e. with one finger pull of the trigger. I assume it is a three round burst ?



The AR 15 is a semi-auto rifle. One pull of the trigger... one shot. The same platform, M 16, (the military version) can be switched to fire a three round burst or a single shot mode. If a person wants the M 16 he/she must pass a more stringent background check and pay a fee of $200.00 to the ATF. The rifles look the same but are very different.

[Oerets]

The AR 15 is a semi-auto rifle. One pull of the trigger... one shot. The same platform, M 16, (the military version) can be switched to fire a three round burst or a single shot mode. If a person wants the M 16 he/she must pass a more stringent background check and pay a fee of $200.00 to the ATF. The rifles look the same but are very different.

Just how fast can a thirty round mag be unloaded on semi-auto? That is a hole lotta of lead going out in a very short time. Granted full auto is higher rate of fire, but even a an AR in semi-auto still has a high cycle rate. Add to that the high velocity of the round and the damage it will cause no wounder the military chooses to use them. But they do not use hollow points like civilians are able to.








Barney

[Boreas]

The AR 15 is a semi-auto rifle. One pull of the trigger... one shot. The same platform, M 16, (the military version) can be switched to fire a three round burst or a single shot mode. If a person wants the M 16 he/she must pass a more stringent background check and pay a fee of $200.00 to the ATF. The rifles look the same but are very different.

Not so different. For starters, there are select fire kits and sear kits for ARs that make them into full auto M16s by swapping out a few parts. You can buy them on the interwebs. Second, there's not a hell of a lot of difference between rapid fire semi-automatic fire and a series of 3 round bursts. An experienced marksman can essentially make the distinction meaningless.

Oh, and don't forget that the "civilian" version can use 30 round "hi cap" magazines and 100 round drums.

And, again, you're getting into the weeds on this issue. None of this shit matters but, if you have to go there, at least try to be honest about it.

An unmodified AR or Bushmaster is simply a mass killing combat weapon. It's purpose, as I and others have said, is to kill as many human beings as possible in a minimum amount of time. There is NO justification for them in private civilian hands.

John

[Oerets]

An unmodified AR or Bushmaster is simply a mass killing combat weapon. It's purpose, as I and others have said, is to kill as many human beings as possible in a minimum amount of time. There is NO justification for them in private civilian hands.

John

The only real difference between a civilian and a military AR is the select fire correct? Same rifle other then that one point?



Barney

[Boreas]

The only real difference between a civilian and a military AR is the select fire correct? Same rifle other then that one point?



Barney

Yes, The AR-15 was the original weapon. When the armed forces adopted it as the M16 it was modified to select fire, either semi or full auto. (The select fire featuring the 3-shot burst came later.) After the armed forces picked up the M16 Colt continued to make and sell the AR-15 semi-automatic rifle, not as a civilian rifle but as a tactical weapon for police forces.

John

[BlueStreak]

I've recently heard people can be murdered with cars and even pillows. So, tell me, what is the difference between a semi-auto and a fully automatic pillow? Are there rapid fire Toyotas that could fit through the door and cut down an entire Presbyterian congregation in under three minutes?

Regards,
Dave

[JJIII]

And, again, you're getting into the weeds on this issue. None of this shit matters but, if you have to go there, at least try to be honest about it.



John

I am being honest. I'm asking the same of others. Words have meaning. An AR 15 is not a "machine gun"! That is all I'm saying. Weeds? Maybe, but again, words have meaning.

[JJIII]

Just how fast can a thirty round mag be unloaded on semi-auto? That is a hole lotta of lead going out in a very short time. Granted full auto is higher rate of fire, but even a an AR in semi-auto still has a high cycle rate. Add to that the high velocity of the round and the damage it will cause no wounder the military chooses to use them. But they do not use hollow points like civilians are able to.








Barney

No argument.

[Oerets]

No argument.

So you can see the argument made by others that they are designed for military use. Not unless you consider hunting humans as a sport to be enjoyed by the average citizen, then they should be regulated.




Barney

[bobabode]

I am being honest. I'm asking the same of others. Words have meaning. An AR 15 is not a "machine gun"! That is all I'm saying. Weeds? Maybe, but again, words have meaning.

You mentioned elsewhere that your views have changed a bit recently. Thank you for keeping an open mind, John. I know we differ on some things but I like to believe that we agree on things more often than not. Same goes for everybody here.

BTW - Christmas Greetings to you and yours this day.:)

[BlueStreak]

I am being honest. I'm asking the same of others. Words have meaning. An AR 15 is not a "machine gun"! That is all I'm saying. Weeds? Maybe, but again, words have meaning.

Why do some people get so emotional about even the most trivial things when it comes to guns? Okay, it's not a "machine gun", John. I'll call the darn thing a watermelon if you like. Just don't pop a vein over it. Geez.

Regards,
Dave

[BlueStreak]

You mentioned elsewhere that your views have changed a bit recently. Thank you for keeping an open mind, John. I know we differ on some things but I like to believe that we agree on things more often than not. Same goes for everybody here.

BTW - Christmas Greetings to you and yours this day.:)

Somethings we agree on more than others and others less, except the things we are in complete agreement or disagreement on or are even in concurrence on the fact that may, or may not ever agree on things other than the thing we are in partial or total agreement on.

Don't you agree? Maybe we could flip, heads I win, tails, you lose............?

Regards,
Dave

[JJIII]

So you can see the argument made by others that they are designed for military use. Not unless you consider hunting humans as a sport to be enjoyed by the average citizen, then they should be regulated.




Barney

I see the argument ,that doesn't mean that I agree with it.

I'm digesting.:)

[JJIII]

You mentioned elsewhere that your views have changed a bit recently. Thank you for keeping an open mind, John. I know we differ on some things but I like to believe that we agree on things more often than not. Same goes for everybody here.

BTW - Christmas Greetings to you and yours this day.:)

Thank you. The best to you and yours also.

[merrylander]

"Why... Mrs. Robinson, I believe you're trying to seduce me"!;) I've heard that a womans' sexual needs are at their peak in her thirties, while a man's are in his twenties?


Sorry, Rob. Watching a Monty Python history-lawyers cut, today. My sense of humor is skewed today.:o

Let me put it this way, I am 82 and the drive has not diminished all that much.

[Boreas]

Let me put it this way, I am 82 and the drive has not diminished all that much.

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride. :D

John