The House just voted

[Fast_Eddie]

Health Care Reform just passed in the House.

[Bigerik]

It's a start.

[wajobu]

Could make for interesting Sunday morning talk-show interviews.

[Charles]

Not surprised.

Do I get a new pony?

Chas

[Fast_Eddie]

Not surprised.

Do I get a new pony?

Chas

Sorry, you're not allowed to buy a pony because you had a pre-existing condition. I know you have the money for a pony, and yes, there are ponies for sale. Just not to you.

[Charles]

Sorry, you're not allowed to buy a pony because you had a pre-existing condition. I know you have the money for a pony, and yes, there are ponies for sale. Just not to you.

I wanted a "free" pony.

Chas

[Fast_Eddie]

I wanted a "free" pony.

Chas

No free ponies. No free health care either. Guess you were listening to Beck again. Glad they got that "fast sale" over with. It's been going on for almost a year now.

[Fast_Eddie]

Key points of the bill. Guess they *did* read it.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/11/07/politics/politicalhotsheet/entry5570605.shtml

And the full text of the bill -

http://docs.house.gov/rules/health/111_ahcaa.pdf

[Charles]

No free ponies, or health care?

Well, shit to bed Fred!!!!

To be completely honest, I have no idea of what they have just passed.

Which, I would imagine, puts me on par with everyone in the House, no matter which way they voted.

Might be good, might be bad, but if they haven't included themselves I'm inclined to be suspect of it.

Besides, the show just started.

Tonite.

The days of passing bills late on a Saturday night thinking that no one's watching are over.

Chas

[painter]

I wanted a "free" pony.

Chas

No FREE ponies...boob jobs...nose jobs...lipo suction...uplifts of any sort?
Probably...sex changes. All of the above for Washington? Nobody thought about that...eh? What would Pelosi do? :eek:

[merrylander]

Well Chas, as the little boy said, "There has to be a pony in there somewhere.":rolleyes:

[Grumpy]

Will it pay my mortgage ? Wheres my obamamoney ???????

[noonereal]

To be completely honest, I have no idea of what they have just passed.





Nor do I.

I am sure that it is not universal health care and will only make more money for the insurance companies. This is not "a start" to universal health care but rather a continuation of the "compromise" that gave us the Bush Medicare drug prescription plan that made the drug companies even wealthier.

I have no doubt this is universal garbage, not universal health care. Obie should not accept this. I am very upset with this crap.


This country needs to take a long hard look in the mirror.

[Charles]

Well Chas, as the little boy said, "There has to be a pony in there somewhere.":rolleyes:

Thank you Rob, I was needing a good laugh!!!

Chas

[painter]

Some of us thought it was being pushed too quickly. It'll be interesting to hear how women feel about having to add RIDER for abortions to their policies. :eek:

[BlueStreak]

Yawn.

Dave

[merrylander]

Some of us thought it was being pushed too quickly. It'll be interesting to hear how women feel about having to add RIDER for abortions to their policies. :eek:

You can blame the so called Blue Dogs for that bit of nonsense. For a bunch of lawyers they do love playing doctor.

[Ohighway]

This is bad....

[painter]

You can blame the so called Blue Dogs for that bit of nonsense. For a bunch of lawyers they do love playing doctor.

Thats funny...So true. Of coarse the Senate will have their say...but I do wonder if Judge Sotomayor could be engaged in her first real interpretation. Just saying...;)

[Fast_Eddie]

Yeah, they've been making the "fast sell" on health care reform for about a year now. Now we get to watch the Senate move at lightning speed and take another year...

I'm sure this will be offensive to at least one of you, but if you'd like to know what's in the bill, I think it took me about 90 seconds to read through the link I posted last night. Sure, it's not everything (though I posted a link to that too) but it should alleviate the "I have no idea what they passed" blues.

It's not a perfect bill, but there's way too much good in there to be against it from my perspective. Yeah, I'd have preferred a single pay program. But that is socialist and somehow the Republicans made that a dirty word. So we get this instead. I'll take it. Gets rid of the most egregious Insurance company practices.

[Fast_Eddie]

Some of us thought it was being pushed too quickly. It'll be interesting to hear how women feel about having to add RIDER for abortions to their policies. :eek:

It is ridiculous. I'm not a fan of abortion. But it is legal and it is the kind of thing you'd think you might need a doctor for. Silly to pretend that they're somehow being pro-life with goofy crap like this.

[Boreas]

You can blame the so called Blue Dogs for that bit of nonsense. For a bunch of lawyers they do love playing doctor.

More than just Blue Dogs. It got 64 Democratic votes.

John

[elwood127]

Interesting that Dems only used enough votes to win so that "some dems could state that they had not voted for it during the next election". That tells me that no Dems would have voted for it if they did'nt have to.

[Ohighway]

I'm sure this will be offensive to at least one of you, but if you'd like to know what's in the bill, I think it took me about 90 seconds to read through the link I posted last night. Sure, it's not everything (though I posted a link to that too) but it should alleviate the "I have no idea what they passed" blues.


I'm sure -anyone- could read through your link in 90 seconds. The problem is .. that is someone's -interpretation- of what's in the bill. And as such you can go on the web and find any number of these "interpretations".

And to be fair, how many can read that -entire- document and truly understand what's contained within?

I guess I base my judgment on this through other means. Taking money from Medicare ? That's low. Thinking that a Government run program will be more efficient? That's naive to the extreme. Thinking the cost estimates are accurate and won't be overrun ? C'mon.... are you serious? Providing health care to illegals? That's insane.

[Fast_Eddie]

I'm sure -anyone- could read through your link in 90 seconds. The problem is .. that is someone's -interpretation- of what's in the bill. And as such you can go on the web and find any number of these "interpretations".

And to be fair, how many can read that -entire- document and truly understand what's contained within?

I guess I base my judgment on this through other means. Taking money from Medicare ? That's low. Thinking that a Government run program will be more efficient? That's naive to the extreme. Thinking the cost estimates are accurate and won't be overrun ? C'mon.... are you serious? Providing health care to illegals? That's insane.

Why is this legislation being held to a standard that *no other in the history of the United States* has been held to? Did you read the "Patirot Act" before it was passed? You want to read it, read it. You can't understand it? Well, that pretty much makes it exactly like every other bill passed in the last 200 years.

You're against taking money from Medicare, but you are against Government run health care?

[Fast_Eddie]

Interesting that Dems only used enough votes to win so that "some dems could state that they had not voted for it during the next election". That tells me that no Dems would have voted for it if they did'nt have to.

This is different from every other vote how? Note there was one Republican vote from a freshmen in a very Democratic region. It's amazing anything gets done, especially when it's known before hand that it will be used as leverage in the next election cycle. In some districts, a vote for this will hurt a candidate. In some districts, a vote against this will hurt a candidate. Just how it is. And just how this is always done.

[Ohighway]

Why is this legislation being held to a standard that *no other in the history of the United States* has been held to? Did you read the "Patirot Act" before it was passed? You want to read it, read it. You can't understand it? Well, that pretty much makes it exactly like every other bill passed in the last 200 years.

You're against taking money from Medicare, but you are against Government run health care?

Good point in your first paragraph. If it was a bad idea then, it's a bad idea now. When do we collectively say "enough" and demand a cure to that ?

Re the Medicare, I say it's low to pull money away from it -now- as it's an established program , and so many older folks (including my parents) will be negatively impacted. However Medicare is a -shining example- of a Government run medical program, and the costs overruns you can expect!

How about my other two points? The cost overruns and the free medical care for illegals? That will happen, and you know it....

[merrylander]

I find something strange in all this talk that illegals will get health care, not that they don't already, ask the governor of Arizona. My medicare number is my SSN, hell you can't even open a bank account without an SSN. Sure some illegals use real peoples SSNs - hey if one want's to use mine and jack up my SS payments be my guest. So AFAIK no SSN, no health insurance, and I doubt that the government will hesitate to use their SSN verification system.

Mind you I still believe they should have gone Single Payer and told the insurance companies to drop dead, just like the insurance companies tell their policy holders.

[Charles]

Yeah, they've been making the "fast sell" on health care reform for about a year now. Now we get to watch the Senate move at lightning speed and take another year...

I'm sure this will be offensive to at least one of you, but if you'd like to know what's in the bill, I think it took me about 90 seconds to read through the link I posted last night. Sure, it's not everything (though I posted a link to that too) but it should alleviate the "I have no idea what they passed" blues.

It's not a perfect bill, but there's way too much good in there to be against it from my perspective. Yeah, I'd have preferred a single pay program. But that is socialist and somehow the Republicans made that a dirty word. So we get this instead. I'll take it. Gets rid of the most egregious Insurance company practices.

Well, I looked at the clip, didn't spend 90 seconds on it, but it looked good on paper. Still don't understand why it took 1,900 pages to say what the clip said.

Reading the entire bill is beyond me.

But I have come up with a new way to evaluate legislation. I figure that if you're for it, then I should be against it!!!!!

Besides, no legislation has been passed.

"Now this is not the end. It's not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." Winston Churchill

I'll just wait and see what happens next.

Chas

[Fast_Eddie]

Well, I looked at the clip, didn't spend 90 seconds on it, but it looked good on paper. Still don't understand why it took 1,900 pages to say what the clip said.

Reading the entire bill is beyond me.

But I have come up with a new way to evaluate legislation. I figure that if you're for it, then I should be against it!!!!!

Besides, no legislation has been passed.

"Now this is not the end. It's not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning." Winston Churchill

I'll just wait and see what happens next.

Chas

Well, I will say, I appreciate this attitude. I don't mind people being against something. I just hate that so many misdirections have been thrown out at this particular piece of legislation. Criticize the content, but don't criticize the process now when you had nothing to say while passing legislation you supported.

Thanks Chas. Made my morning.

Take care,

Ed

[Fast_Eddie]

Good point in your first paragraph. If it was a bad idea then, it's a bad idea now. When do we collectively say "enough" and demand a cure to that ?

Apparently when people you voted for are no longer taking away my rights and persecuting people who don't live the way you live. This is just noise that has nothing at all to do with the issue at hand.

As for cost overruns and such, sorry, but again, this is different from everything ever done how? Why do we care all of a sudden now? Were you marching on Washington saying "This Iraq thing is a bad idea- cost over runs will kill our economy"? I suspect not. Your arguments are arguments that could be used against any piece of legislation. I find it ironic that people who rolled on just fine while passing things I didn't agree with are all of a sudden so worried about the process.

If you do a little research on the proposal, no services will be cut for people on Medicade or Medicare. Think about it. Look at the post earlier asking for the free health care. Well there isn't free health care, but there will be better access to health care at lower prices. So we won't need as many supplemental programs to make it work. Look, that's a very quick and shoddy overview, but there is plenty of information available about this if you're really interested. But most people who are yelling about this kind of thing are just looking for some reason to be against it. I hope you're not one of them.

And Medicare *is* more efficient than private insurance. Again, there is a lot of information on this. Medicare is a great example of how well the Government actually does this kind of thing. Expanding it is a great way to cover more people with high quality, lower cost medical care.

Take care,

Ed

[d-ray657]

I watched the whole deal on CSPAN last night, and it seems to me, the republicans goofed. Had they voted down the abortion amendment, I don't think the big bill would have passed. I don't think it matters too awfully much anyway, as I doubt very seriously if the Senate will pass it as is. I also feel confident that if the Senate surprises me and does pass it, the Supreme court will be ruling on how constitutional it is to fine and jail a person who chooses not to buy insurance. If by some miracle, it passes through all the obstacles before it and becomes law, it will be the first time since the draft that the government has been able to compel citizens to do something like this. I wouldn't give it a snowballs chance in hell as is. Here's a question that I've been pondering as well; if the Senate does shoot it down, how long will it be before it comes up again?

Next year if it didn't pass. Who knows how long it will go on, however, with Lieberman going along with the GOP stall tactics.

Regards,

D-Ray

[Ohighway]

Apparently when people you voted for are no longer taking away my rights and persecuting people who don't live the way you live.

Hey Eddie,

I don't mind having a discussion with you. However can you leave out accusatory stuff like you posted above ? Just because I don't think this health care bill is a good idea, don't go assuming you know who I voted for, how I feel about everything in general, nor the way I live, etc.

thanks, Ohighway

[Charles]

Next year if it didn't pass. Who knows how long it will go on, however, with Lieberman going along with the GOP stall tactics.

Regards,

D-Ray

But, but....I though Holy Joe was the "Conscious of the Senate", at least while he was still a Donk.

And when I gaze upon these 100 worthies, I think that he still is.

But I grade on the curve.

Chas

[Charles]

If this does pass, I wonder how many people are going to quit med school in favor of becoming stockbrokers.

Chas

[Charles]

Hey Eddie,

I don't mind having a discussion with you. However can you leave out accusatory stuff like you posted above ? Just because I don't think this health care bill is a good idea, don't go assuming you know who I voted for, how I feel about everything in general, nor the way I live, etc.

thanks, Ohighway

Now this is exactly the response I would expect from a right wing, bible thumping, snake kissing, Beck induced fringitic!!!!

Damn peckerwood!!!!

Chas

[merrylander]

Given the amount of money the industry spent* trying to stop it I find it rather amazing that it went through.

*Do you know we are the only country that legalizes bribery? Oh I know, they call it Lobbying and the Supremes blessed it so my understanding of English must be bad 'cause I see nowt in the Constitution that favors it.

[Charles]

Given the amount of money the industry spent* trying to stop it I find it rather amazing that it went through.

*Do you know we are the only country that legalizes bribery? Oh I know, they call it Lobbying and the Supremes blessed it so my understanding of English must be bad 'cause I see nowt in the Constitution that favors it.

I didn't know that.

Chas

[Fast_Eddie]

Hey Eddie,

I don't mind having a discussion with you. However can you leave out accusatory stuff like you posted above ? Just because I don't think this health care bill is a good idea, don't go assuming you know who I voted for, how I feel about everything in general, nor the way I live, etc.

thanks, Ohighway

I notice you didn't say I was wrong. Yeah, I have a reputation for being offensive around here. People don't like my particular brand of mirror. I'm trying. Looks like I'm failing. I'll keep working on it.

[Boreas]

But I have come up with a new way to evaluate legislation. I figure that if you're for it, then I should be against it!!!!!

Good grief! That attitude is precisely what's wrong with our current batch of Republicans. They oppose absolutely everything the Dems put forward, purely on principle. Then they whine about a lack of bipartisanship.

John

[Boreas]

If this does pass, I wonder how many people are going to quit med school in favor of becoming stockbrokers.

Chas

The ones who have no business being doctors in the first place.

John

[Fast_Eddie]

We love you just as you are Ed.:)

Good grief! That attitude is precisely what's wrong with our current batch of Republicans. They oppose absolutely everything the Dems put forward, purely on principle. Then they whine about a lack of bipartisanship.

John

Problem with the Republicans is they let people like me run the party. Democrats are smart enough to keep me banished to a political off-shoot web site. If I ran the party we'd never get elected!

[Boreas]

*Do you know we are the only country that legalizes bribery? Oh I know, they call it Lobbying and the Supremes blessed it so my understanding of English must be bad 'cause I see nowt in the Constitution that favors it.

Yup! Corporations are "persons" and money is "speech". Assholes!

John

[Charles]

Good grief! That attitude is precisely what's wrong with our current batch of Republicans. They oppose absolutely everything the Dems put forward, purely on principle. Then they whine about a lack of bipartisanship.

John

Gotcha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chas

[Charles]

The ones who have no business being doctors in the first place.

John

I suspect that the majority of doctors didn't go into the doctor business because they're nice guys.

Chas

[Sandy G]

Moe, Larry, 'n' Curly did- "For Duty and Humanity !"

[BlueStreak]

Absolutely right. They need to somehow take the money out of selecting politicians.

+1.

Dave

[BlueStreak]

Good grief! That attitude is precisely what's wrong with our current batch of Republicans. They oppose absolutely everything the Dems put forward, purely on principle. Then they whine about a lack of bipartisanship.

John

To some people being "bipartisan" means you must become their yes-man.
And I tend to believe both parties are guilty of that, but my own personal
viewpoint is that the GOP is a bit worse. Seem to be more of an "All or Nothing" type of crowd.

Dave

[d-ray657]

If this does pass, I wonder how many people are going to quit med school in favor of becoming stockbrokers.

Chas

Who says they're not next. Only in capitalism could people get rich making money off of other people's money. They're not doing anything to advance the capacity of our economy - just taking a little piece of everyone else's action.

Regards,

D-Ray

[Fast_Eddie]

If this does pass, I wonder how many people are going to quit med school in favor of becoming stockbrokers.

Chas

We took all the profit out of being a teacher and look.... Okay, you have a point.

[Charles]

Who says they're not next. Only in capitalism could people get rich making money off of other people's money. They're not doing anything to advance the capacity of our economy - just taking a little piece of everyone else's action.

Regards,

D-Ray

Looks to me like they are next.

Besides, in America, we don't reward productive behavior, we reward manipulative behavior. As a rule.

Least most of the sawbones will stitch you up, roll you a few pills, and try to do their best. And they are getting incredibly good at fixing blown out backs.

Don't know about the Masters of the Universe. I'm sure that most of them are decent and honest, but the one's who aren't can do a lot of damage in short order.

There is a time and a place for everything. And we have places for those who don't play by the rules. At least for the little people.

Chas

[Boreas]

Gotcha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Chas

Yup!:confused:

John

[Grumpy]

We took all the profit out of being a teacher and look.... Okay, you have a point.


I don't know if I would agree completely with that. A quick search of the web shows the median income of a college professor within 1-9 years experience to be from 40-80K

The same search showed public school teachers average in grades K-12 to be in the 41-44K range. Lets take the averages for a 1st year high school teacher. 30-41K in its first year is far from the poverty level and not a bad living. No its not great but show me a job off Wall Street or the pentagon that pays "big bucks" in its first year.

OK now that your thinking I am advocating that teachers are overpaid let me say your dead wrong. I do believe teachers should be compensated well for their tireless work. At the same time I have meet a lot of really crappy teachers that needed to go away a long time ago. Its for this reason I think the unions suck ass. Protecting poor workers in any field is lame and the unions have complicated the dismissal of these people.

[Fast_Eddie]

No its not great

I agree with most of what you said. But I really agree with this bit. Crap, I hire people to schedule promos on the log who make more than that. I wouldn't trust them to train a dog, much less teach a child.

Yes, there are some teachers who have no business being in a school. But I believe if they made a lot more, we'd get a lot better teachers. I hate what has happened to Public Education in the last 20 years. If we had any pride in America we'd demand better for our kids. But no one wants to pay any taxes and the "why should I pay" mentality has prevailed since Satan, I mean Reagan held office.

[BlueStreak]

41-44k? Wow.

I was just going over the household budget, and I should clear 62k this year, and I'm just a dumba** production mechanic. These people are college edumacated and that's what they make?:confused:

Think I'll stick with pumpin' grease and turnin' wrenches..........................:D

Dave

[d-ray657]

New graduates from law school get over $100K with wall street firms, but they don't have a life. Most of them get chewed up and spit out pretty quick.

Whether $30K is a good living depends on whether you're looking at a one wage earner family. That concept is pretty much a thing of the past, anyway.

Of course teachers haven't historically been paid like they had to support a faimily, seeing as they were mostly women, and women are supposed to supported by their husband. In many districts teachers don't reach the $40K range until they have added a masters to their resume. Raises are largely dependent on the level of post graduate education.

Another historically female profession that doesn't get the pay that their level of education, skill and knowledge warrant. When one compares the extent to which nurses are involved in making decisions in health care with pharmacists involvement, it's nearly obscene. Average pay for a BSN is about half of that for a pharmacist. http://www.worldatwork.org/waw/adimComment?id=33550

Regards,

D-Ray

[BlueStreak]

And the Real Estate is prolly pretty tight right now. Or has it eased some?
My boss was in Real Estate, and I ended up helpin' him get his current job at the plant. Funny, how that worked out. Years ago, I trained him as a mechanic, I was his foreman. He left that and went into R.E.. When that went bust, I helped him get in at this plant as a mechanic, and now he's MY boss.

It's good to have friends, Huh?

Dave

[Fast_Eddie]

My wife taught for 17 years in the Blue Valley District, but finally quit when it became evident that she had "topped out" at 46k. That was with a Master's Degree in her subject and all the extra curricular stuff she could handle. I hated the fact that my dumbass which never even graduated high school, would usually beat her salary by double. There's something basically wrong with that. She sells Real Estate now, and doesn't miss the parents or bureaucracy of teaching one bit.

Amen brother. My parents were both teachers and my wife works at a school. I get so sick of hearing all these "reports" of teachers making 65k. Maybe in Manhattan, but not in Denver. I make crap at a TV station and make damn near three times that. It's f'd up.

Cops and teachers. Should start at 100k. We'd live in a better country. But we might have to pay taxes.

[BlueStreak]

This thread has wandered. But, I like the direction it has taken.

Dave

[BlueStreak]

It's odd, and I don't get it, but she had her best year yet in 09. She started specializing in short sales at the beginning of the year, but now it's mostly straight sales. Very recently she's picked things up to 1 or two closings a week. Her goal is to pay off our house by the end of next year. That would be sweet, as I make that payment every month.:(

Oh my God...:D

Dave

[noonereal]

If this does pass, I wonder how many people are going to quit med school in favor of becoming stockbrokers.

Chas

:confused:Chas?????

What's with this post?

This is not like you?:(

[noonereal]

Amen brother. My parents were both teachers and my wife works at a school. I get so sick of hearing all these "reports" of teachers making 65k. Maybe in Manhattan, but not in Denver. I make crap at a TV station and make damn near three times that. It's f'd up.

Cops and teachers. Should start at 100k. We'd live in a better country. But we might have to pay taxes.

Out here cops and teachers are indeed very, very well paid with palatial benefits. What does the average teacher/cop make out there?

[merrylander]

Yup! Corporations are "persons" and money is "speech". Assholes!

John

I have yet to figure how the government of Dubai qualifies as a 'citizen person' but K-Street still takes their money for lobbying for them.

[Independent]

I watched the whole deal on CSPAN last night, and it seems to me, the republicans goofed. Had they voted down the abortion amendment, I don't think the big bill would have passed.

Excellent point, and I don't know why anyone else hasn't really run with this theory?

My wife and I talked about this very same possible "screw-up" by the republicans right after the vote (we were up watching it too). I do believe, with the abortion addendum added to the bill, the blue dog dems in the senate just lost much of their reason for voting against it. That is, unless the insurance companies pad their pockets a lot more.





Indy

[d-ray657]

Hey Independent, I started another thread on trying to figure out the meaning of your signature. Would you be willing to elaborate on it?

Regards,

D-Ray

[piece-itpete]

And Medicare *is* more efficient than private insurance. Again, there is a lot of information on this. Medicare is a great example of how well the Government actually does this kind of thing. Expanding it is a great way to cover more people with high quality, lower cost medical care.

Take care,

Ed

It's very easy to be a cheaply run system when secondary costs like buildings etc are off the books and when you want to save money you just cut payments for services rendered!!

Good grief! That attitude is precisely what's wrong with our current batch of Republicans. They oppose absolutely everything the Dems put forward, purely on principle. Then they whine about a lack of bipartisanship.

John

You mean, Republicans don't agree with Democrats? The horror!

I hate what has happened to Public Education in the last 20 years. If we had any pride in America we'd demand better for our kids. But no one wants to pay any taxes and the "why should I pay" mentality has prevailed since Satan, I mean Reagan held office.

You think schools are substantially different now then 20 years ago? And damn that Reagan, messing up my local school. Is there anything he can't do?

Pete

[BlueStreak]

It is ridiculous. I'm not a fan of abortion. But it is legal and it is the kind of thing you'd think you might need a doctor for. Silly to pretend that they're somehow being pro-life with goofy crap like this.

Yawn, snore, yawn.........Huh, uh, what was that?

Abortion?

There are people who still believe Republicans are really Pro-life?
WTF? How many times do you have to be led into the voting with
pictures of mutilated fetuses, only to have them not-quite-be-able
to do anything about it, over and over again before you see it as
what it really is?-----A campaign tool.

Sure, there may be few individuals who really care and make an honest attempt. But, I really don't think the Party will ever let a serious piece of legislation pass. It's a "Hot Button" that has pulled them out of too many close elections.

Love,
Dave


P.s. I am and have always been Pro-Life.

[Grumpy]

40K is living large to some of us. We had 6 kids in the with an income of less then 20K and not taking a dime from the gooberment.

Yes I feel that the income of teachers should be raised but 100K with all their bennies is a bit on the extreme side.

For the record my towns public schools were some of the best in our state. Then we opened the doors to school of choice. State pays the school for every kid they take in from outside the district. In a matter of years we went from average class sizes of 20-22 to 30 plus. Scores go down, one on one time goes out the window and some of these little imported bastards tried burning down the school. All to get a few more bucks from the state. Pathetic...

[Fast_Eddie]

There are people who still believe Republicans are really Pro-life?

Are you kidding?! Everyone voted for them to overturn Row v. Wade and make it illegal to be gay. So when they had the White House and both houses of Congress they did it! What's that? Oh. They didn't? Sooooo. Why did eveyone vote for them again? Ah yes. We *did* kill a lot of people in other countries and mess up the economy.

Somehow this has to be Reagan's fault.

[Fast_Eddie]

Yes I feel that the income of teachers should be raised but 100K with all their bennies is a bit on the extreme side.

Probably. What I'd like to see is teachers making enough that good people were trying really hard to get those jobs. I'd like to see a lot of people with Education degrees not being able to find work because it's such a competitive field. We complain about bad teachers, but the truth is, there are a lot of schools in America that can't hire teachers at all.

I employ a department of designers. You know how many people go to Art School and end up selling shoes at the mall? Only the good ones get jobs.

[Grumpy]

Actually I am not complaining so much about bad teachers but bad unions protecting poorly performing workers. This takes money away from those who actually deserve it.

My oldest daughter is going to school to be a special ed teacher and i doubt she will have any problem finding work.

[piece-itpete]

Somehow this has to be Reagan's fault.

Lmao!! You're killing me Eddie ;)

Pete

[Grumpy]

Dagnabit ! Burger king put onions on my burger again. Its Gore's fault I tell you !!!

Oh wait I mean bush..

[hillbilly]

Many people go to collage with money in mind. Sure, if teaching jobs paid 100k, then ALOT more folks would want to teach just for the money.


But quess what? The best teachers out there teach because THEY LOVE KIDS AND WANT TO TEACH, there for, the money is not such an issue to them.

We gotta dick over our county schools now thats a transplant. He took the job here because land is cheap, cost of living is cheap, and the job pays 110k a year. When our school had 482 kids out with flu and doctors confirmed most were h1n1, this same dick said school would remain in session .. no closing school because kids can run .. but they can't hide from swine flu.

Funny thing. School systems over in the Nashville area have FAR, FAR,FAR more poulation than our tiny school system, and they were on the news saying they shut school down because 22 kids had h1n1.

Now just immagine for a second if that same dick that moved here for the big money and low cost of living had got lucky enough to land his job in the big city .. where far more kids are at risk.

If you go to collage to land a low paying job teaching, most likely your doing it because you love helping kids. Throw big bucks in the mix and you'll have folks only wanting to teach BECAUSE IT PAYS WELL, and would only be a paycheck to them.

[Fast_Eddie]

But quess what? The best teachers out there teach because THEY LOVE KIDS AND WANT TO TEACH, there for, the money is not such an issue to them.

Couldn't you say this about most jobs? Shoot, the best TV producers are the ones who love what they do. It's interesting, there's been a lot of speculation lately that we'll lose all our good doctors if we allow our Health Care system to be reformed. I won't get off on the tangent of not understanding the logic behind that at all. But don't you think the best doctors are the ones who love helping people? I do. All the same, given a choice, I'll take the best guy in the country if my life depends on it. He probably loves helping people. Probably makes a boat load of cash too.

I love kids and would love to be a teacher. My parents, as I said, were both in education. Most of my mom's family was. Would have been an easy choice for me. But I kinda wanted to make some money. If teaching paid better, might have been a different deal. I'm not sure it's smart to rely on "good intentions" when talking about our children's education.

I'd just as soon have the person who loves children and wants to teach *and* was recruited with a large pay check in a competative market. I find it ironic that so often people who are 100% behind the free market think it doesn't apply to our schools.

[Boreas]

It's very easy to be a cheaply run system when secondary costs like buildings etc are off the books and when you want to save money you just cut payments for services rendered!!

What buildings would those be? When has Medicare ever reduced its reimbursement rates?

You mean, Republicans don't agree with Democrats? The horror!

No, that's not what I mean. Republicans whine all the time about a lack of bipartisanship because Democrats won't do exactly what they want them to. That's what bipartisanship means to them.

You think schools are substantially different now then 20 years ago? And damn that Reagan, messing up my local school. Is there anything he can't do?

It's the old Republican whine: government doesn't work. Then they go out and prove it by defunding programs until they can't work.

Republicans since Reagan have been out to destroy public education in favor of charter schools and a voucher system. Did you know that Right Wing talk show host Bill Bennet used to be Reagan's Secretary of Education? did you know he got the job on the strength of his view that the Department of Education should be done away with? He also wants religious education to be mandatory.

John

[Fast_Eddie]

Republicans whine all the time about a lack of bipartisanship because Democrats won't do exactly what they want them to. That's what bipartisanship means to them.

Oh come on. Republicans are bi-partisan! That one guy voted for Health Care.

Republicans since Reagan have been out to destroy public education in favor of charter schools and a voucher system.

QFT. You know why we beat up on Reagan so much? Becuase he was the most destructive American who ever lived. He was the first to suggest that we shouldn't have to pay for educating our kids. He began undercutting all the things that made this country great.

[piece-itpete]

What buildings would those be? When has Medicare ever reduced its reimbursement rates?

No, that's not what I mean. Republicans whine all the time about a lack of bipartisanship because Democrats won't do exactly what they want them to. That's what bipartisanship means to them.

It's the old Republican whine: government doesn't work. Then they go out and prove it by defunding programs until they can't work.

Republicans since Reagan have been out to destroy public education in favor of charter schools and a voucher system. Did you know that Right Wing talk show host Bill Bennet used to be Reagan's Secretary of Education? did you know he got the job on the strength of his view that the Department of Education should be done away with? He also wants religious education to be mandatory.

John

Reagan ate my baby!! :eek:

Since Bush is gone youall have to blame Reagan :D

Of course the Dems had control of Congress for what, 40 years give or take up till him?

Interesting thing about vouchers, Cleveland has been in front of this issue. It's awarded by lottery. So every year you get footage of desperately poor mostly black mothers bawling their eyes out because they lost and and have to send their kids to the public school.

Says a lot about public schools. And no underfunded stuff either, Cleveland spends more per capita than most of the bluechip suburb schools and just spent well over a billion - half from the state - on rebuilding its' palaces of mediocritous decreptitude.

I'm at work, check around, the only costs shown for Medicare are outlays for medical procedures - no building or other misc expenses, very convenient.

I thought Medicare was reducing payments to doctors?

Pete

[Fast_Eddie]

Here's the thing. We can debate and postulate the best way to educate our children. We can talk about how black people cry when they don't get in the school they want. We can say "why should I have to pay for your kid's education". We can hem and haw all day long. In the mean time, India, Japan and China are educating their kids. They realize what we once did: our country will be as great in 20 years time as our elementry education system is today.

This is just my opinion, but if you love America you should demand that the greatest nation on Earth have the best public education on the planet. It's that simple.

[merrylander]

Here's the thing. We can debate and postulate the best way to educate our children. We can talk about how black people cry when they don't get in the school they want. We can say "why should I have to pay for your kid's education". We can hem and haw all day long. In the mean time, India, Japan and China are educating their kids. They realize what we once did: our country will be as great in 20 years time as our elementry education system is today.

This is just my opinion, but if you love America you should demand that the greatest nation on Earth have the best public education on the planet. It's that simple.


In truth 'we' are educating India and China's young people, take a tour around you friendly neighborhood campus.:rolleyes:

[doucanoe]

Probably...sex changes. All of the above for Washington? Nobody thought about that...eh? What would Pelosi do? :eek:


Not to worry. The drafters of the bill conveniently wrote themselves out of having to participate. The people "must" participate, while congress and other "may" participate.

If this is so wonderful and glorious an occasion for all, why do you think that was???

RC

[piece-itpete]

I don't have sound so I'm not sure what this says:

http://belowthebeltway.com/2009/10/26/medicares-administrative-costs-higher-than-private-insurance/

Pete

[piece-itpete]

In truth 'we' are educating India and China's young people, take a tour around you friendly neighborhood campus.:rolleyes:

Lmao!!!

Pete

[Boreas]

Reagan ate my baby!! :eek:

Since Bush is gone youall have to blame Reagan :D

I'd be more than happy to blame Bush and there's a lot to work with there but in this context he's just Ronnie's "heir".

Of course the Dems had control of Congress for what, 40 years give or take up till him?

Proving what, exactly?

Interesting thing about vouchers, Cleveland has been in front of this issue. It's awarded by lottery. So every year you get footage of desperately poor mostly black mothers bawling their eyes out because they lost and and have to send their kids to the public school.

Some private schools are better than most public schools. If Cleveland has a lottery for vouchers that subsidize tuition, all well and good but what St. Ronnie's disciples want is private school vouchers instead of public schools.

Says a lot about public schools. And no underfunded stuff either, Cleveland spends more per capita than most of the bluechip suburb schools and just spent well over a billion - half from the state - on rebuilding its' palaces of mediocritous decreptitude.

Fund 'em and fix 'em. Don't replace them with Christian madrassas.

I'm at work, check around, the only costs shown for Medicare are outlays for medical procedures - no building or other misc expenses, very convenient.

So, you just threw that reference to building expense for......... what?

I thought Medicare was reducing payments to doctors?

You may be thinking of the provision of some health care reform proposals pegging reimbursement rates for the public option to Medicare rates, or really Medicare rates plus 2% or 5% or.... whatever comes out of the sausage factory.

John

[piece-itpete]

Proving what, exactly?



Some private schools are better than most public schools. If Cleveland has a lottery for vouchers that subsidize tuition, all well and good but what St. Ronnie's disciples want is private school vouchers instead of public schools.



Fund 'em and fix 'em. Don't replace them with Christian madrassas.



So, you just threw that reference to building expense for......... what?



You may be thinking of the provision of some health care reform proposals pegging reimbursement rates for the public option to Medicare rates, or really Medicare rates plus 2% or 5% or.... whatever comes out of the sausage factory.

John

Congress passes the laws. They passed 'Reagans' laws.

Please, please, please, close down Cleveland public schools. Please. Throwing money at them doesn't work.

And I'm curious about these 'Christian madrases' you're referring to. I've heard of Christian schools, where the kids actually learn to read and write, but the only madrases I've heard of lately was Obamas :)

I hereby withdraw the building remark until I can back it up. For cuts, I suspect you are right :)

Pete

[Boreas]

Congress passes the laws. They passed 'Reagans' laws.

Point taken but much of what Reagan did required no legislation. It was done by policy decisions and directives from within government departments.

Please, please, please, close down Cleveland public schools. Please. Throwing money at them doesn't work.

Just throwing money at a problem never works but there's no reason why we can't make our public schools the envy of the world, just as they were in the '50s, '60s & '70s.

And I'm curious about these 'Christian madrases' you're referring to. I've heard of Christian schools, where the kids actually learn to read and write, but the only madrases I've heard of lately was Obamas :)

Yes, they learn to read and write but they're also given religious education. In some cases that religious education gets pretty crazy. Think of the nuttiest stuff you've heard from the religious right and be assured that same stuff and worse is being crammed into the heads of children somewhere.

John

[d-ray657]

You may be thinking of the provision of some health care reform proposals pegging reimbursement rates for the public option to Medicare rates, or really Medicare rates plus 2% or 5% or.... whatever comes out of the sausage factory.

John

I think the insurance companies look at the medicare rates to determine what is fair and reasonable. They are more than happy with this portion of socialized medicine, which helps them save costs and increase profits.

Regards,

D-Ray

[painter]

Couldn't you say this about most jobs? Shoot, the best TV producers are the ones who love what they do. It's interesting, there's been a lot of speculation lately that we'll lose all our good doctors if we allow our Health Care system to be reformed. I won't get off on the tangent of not understanding the logic behind that at all.

Have a friend who's grandson dropped out of med school but for a slightly different reason. It seems we as a nation are importing sooo many foreign med students (free tuition) who are being given jobs in this country...that many of our American graduates are having to go to foreign countries. That coupled with the enormous tuition increases and malpractice insurance. Can't say if this is fact...but I have no reason to disbelieve. How many foreign doctors have you come in contact with?

[Fast_Eddie]

CPlease, please, please, close down Cleveland public schools. Please. Throwing money at them doesn't work.


I'm curious- why do you say that? Do you not think capitalism works? Do you not think more money in a free market would attract better talent?

[piece-itpete]

A government enforced union controlled monopoly is far from capitalism!

Seriously though, they've been throwing money at it and they are ratholes. Fancy ones now :)

Chinese and Indian parents *make* their kids do thier homework, like ours did ;)

Pete

[Fast_Eddie]

A government enforced union controlled monopoly is far from capitalism!

Seriously though, they've been throwing money at it and they are ratholes. Fancy ones now :)

Chinese and Indian parents *make* their kids do thier homework, like ours did ;)

Pete

So what do you propose - make parents pay for education? In other words, raise taxes on families? Does that seem right?

[piece-itpete]

So what do you propose - make parents pay for education? In other words, raise taxes on families? Does that seem right?

We pay for it already!

Pete

[Fast_Eddie]

Again, what is it you propose?

[Charles]

Reagan wasn't so bad.

Chas

[Fast_Eddie]

Reagan wasn't so bad.

Chas

Better than Hitler, I suppose. Well, Hitler didn't do as much damage to the United States. But I don't think Reagan did it on purpose. So I'll give him that. More charity than Obama's foes seem willing to extend.

[Charles]

Now Bill John, one of our City fathers, told me once,

"If you can't say nuttin' nice about a CAAK.....r, then you shouldn't say nuttin' about the SOB at all".

Wise words indeed, and he didn't let them stand in his way.

But I, for one, will take his advice, and say.............

Chas

[piece-itpete]

Reagan wasn't so bad.

Chas

Lmao!!

Eddie, instead of a knee jerk reaction to anything that might impact the NEA and janitors union one teenie bit maybe we should be at least trying new ideas. What they are, I don't know, but those poor women crying know they don't want their kids forcibly warehoused in a failed (and expensive!) system.

I find it interesting that the 'champions of the poor' look at these sad folks and tell them there's no hope.

Pete

[piece-itpete]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKzZJoPu1OQ

[merrylander]

Have a friend who's grandson dropped out of med school but for a slightly different reason. It seems we as a nation are importing sooo many foreign med students (free tuition) who are being given jobs in this country...that many of our American graduates are having to go to foreign countries. That coupled with the enormous tuition increases and malpractice insurance. Can't say if this is fact...but I have no reason to disbelieve. How many foreign doctors have you come in contact with?


In the last job they offered an PPO option in the health insurance and a coworker leaned over and whispered "I bet all those doctors are listed in the Iranian Medical Association." He may have been right.

[Fast_Eddie]

Lmao!!

Eddie, instead of a knee jerk reaction to anything that might impact the NEA and janitors union one teenie bit maybe we should be at least trying new ideas. What they are, I don't know, but those poor women crying know they don't want their kids forcibly warehoused in a failed (and expensive!) system.

I find it interesting that the 'champions of the poor' look at these sad folks and tell them there's no hope.

Pete

I'm not the one saying there's no hope. I'm not the one saying the schools can't be fixed. Still waiting for you plan to solve the problem.

[piece-itpete]

I'll head over to the school voucher thread and leave this poor health care thread alone :D

Pete

[BlueStreak]

"Reagan ate my baby!! :eek:

Since Bush is gone youall have to blame Reagan :D"

At work, we call it "Root Cause Problem Solving".:rolleyes:

Dave

[painter]

In the last job they offered an PPO option in the health insurance and a coworker leaned over and whispered "I bet all those doctors are listed in the Iranian Medical Association." He may have been right.

He could be right. At least the local radio crowd seems to think being politically correct will do us in (afraid to speakup for fear of being called racist against a group). Makes one think...

[piece-itpete]

"Reagan ate my baby!! :eek:

Since Bush is gone youall have to blame Reagan :D"

At work, we call it "Root Cause Problem Solving".:rolleyes:

Dave

Lol!!

I blame FDR :D

Pete

[hillbilly]

Was just watchin' the early news on tv this morning. Thought I share. :eek:




Republicans said that the bill was fatally flawed and that voters would retaliate against Democrats at the polls in November.

“It’s obvious why the majority has cooked up this amendment in secret, has introduced it in the middle of a snowstorm, has scheduled the Senate to come in session at midnight, has scheduled a vote for 1 a.m., is insisting that it be passed before Christmas — because they don’t want the American people to know what’s in it,” said Senator Lamar Alexander, Republican of Tennessee.

Whole story below.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/21/us/21vote.html?em

[Grumpy]

Was just watchin' the early news on tv this morning. Thought I share. :eek:




Republicans said that the bill was fatally flawed and that voters would retaliate against Democrats at the polls in November.

“It’s obvious why the majority has cooked up this amendment in secret, has introduced it in the middle of a snowstorm, has scheduled the Senate to come in session at midnight, has scheduled a vote for 1 a.m., is insisting that it be passed before Christmas — because they don’t want the American people to know what’s in it,” said Senator Lamar Alexander, Republican of Tennessee.

Whole story below.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/21/us/21vote.html?em

The democrats do not hold the monopoly on secret shit, voters dont want.

They will will also pay dearly at the polls much in the way the republicans just did..

[BlueStreak]

And Republicans are NEVER secretive?

What precisely is "fatally flawed" about it?

Or is "fatally flawed" just the new catch phrase we'll be hearing,
ad nauseum, for the next few years whether it turns out to be a good thing or not?

As I understand it, it still contains the ban on "Pre-existing conditions",
and includes "subsidies" for uninsured families who make under $88,000/year to
assist them in purchasing insurance. Is that correct?

The ban on "pre-existing conditions" is something I've wanted to see for years.
Subsidies for families making $88,000 is set a little high, I would say. But...............

Ahhhh, but it's the "subsidies" they don't like, isn't it? Because that is still a step towards government (taxpayer) funded healthcare. It's still Uncle Sam giving people public money so they can get insurance. I see.

Well, in that case, I would say it's a step in the right direction.

Dave

[noonereal]

This bill needs to die.

The inscription of millions for corporate profit is immoral.

[Boreas]

This bill needs to die.

The inscription of millions for corporate profit is immoral.

I took the "Kill Bill" avatar down because I'm waiting to see what comes out of reconciliation. I'm not optimistic but I think it's safe to say that the House won't accept the Senate bill as written so changes will occur.

As it stands now the bill is pretty damned bad. Here's a list of ten of the worst things about the bill compiled by Firedog Lake.

How bad is the bill?

1. Forces you to pay up to 8% of your income to private insurance corporations -- whether you want to or not

2. If you refuse to buy the insurance, you'll have to pay penalties of up to 2% of your annual income to the IRS

3. After being forced to pay thousands in premiums for junk insurance, you can still be on the hook for up to $11,900 a year in out-of-pocket medical expenses.

4. Massive restriction on a woman's right to choose, designed to trigger a challenge to Roe v. Wade in the Supreme Court

5. Paid for by taxes on the middle class insurance plan you have right now through your employer, causing them to cut back benefits and increase co-pays

6. Many of the taxes to pay for the bill start now, but most Americans won't see any benefits -- like an end to discrimination against those with preexisting conditions -- until 2014 when the program begins.

7. Allows insurance companies to charge people who are older 300% more than others

8. Grants monopolies to to drug companies that will keep generic versions of expensive biotech drugs from ever coming to market.

9. No reimportation of prescription drugs, which would save consumers $100 billion over 10 years

10. The cost of medical care will continue to rise, and insurance premiums for a family of 4 will rise an average of $1000 a year -- meaning in 10 years, you family's insurance premium will be $10,000 more annually than it is right now.

This is only one source, and one with a left bias, but it's largely consistent with other critiques I've read.

John

[piece-itpete]

Good, bad, or indifferent passage of this bill is quite an accomplishment, maybe the biggest since the reform of the tax code.

Pete

[Boreas]

Good, bad, or indifferent passage of this bill is quite an accomplishment, maybe the biggest since the reform of the tax code.

Pete

Yes, it is. Every president since TR wanted to do something about health care and they couldn't get it done. This is quite a legislative accomplishment on the part of Obama and the Dems. Maybe this bill can be the nucleus of significant reform over time. TR's cousin didn't get anything like our current Social Security program passed. That has been reformed, amended and expanded over time but Social Security was never riddled with give-aways to corporate interests the way this health care bill is.

John

[piece-itpete]

Oh believe me, I don't like it :)

Just calling a spade a spade. Can we still use that expression? :p

Pete

[BlueStreak]

I took the "Kill Bill" avatar down because I'm waiting to see what comes out of reconciliation. I'm not optimistic but I think it's safe to say that the House won't accept the Senate bill as written so changes will occur.

As it stands now the bill is pretty damned bad. Here's a list of ten of the worst things about the bill compiled by Firedog Lake.

How bad is the bill?

1. Forces you to pay up to 8% of your income to private insurance corporations -- whether you want to or not

2. If you refuse to buy the insurance, you'll have to pay penalties of up to 2% of your annual income to the IRS

3. After being forced to pay thousands in premiums for junk insurance, you can still be on the hook for up to $11,900 a year in out-of-pocket medical expenses.

4. Massive restriction on a woman's right to choose, designed to trigger a challenge to Roe v. Wade in the Supreme Court

5. Paid for by taxes on the middle class insurance plan you have right now through your employer, causing them to cut back benefits and increase co-pays

6. Many of the taxes to pay for the bill start now, but most Americans won't see any benefits -- like an end to discrimination against those with preexisting conditions -- until 2014 when the program begins.

7. Allows insurance companies to charge people who are older 300% more than others

8. Grants monopolies to to drug companies that will keep generic versions of expensive biotech drugs from ever coming to market.

9. No reimportation of prescription drugs, which would save consumers $100 billion over 10 years

10. The cost of medical care will continue to rise, and insurance premiums for a family of 4 will rise an average of $1000 a year -- meaning in 10 years, you family's insurance premium will be $10,000 more annually than it is right now.

This is only one source, and one with a left bias, but it's largely consistent with other critiques I've read.

John

Holy Shit. That is bad.:eek: Assuming that it is all true.

But, now,.....There was some talking head on t.v. last night saying that the pre-existing condition ban IS still included in the bill?

I don't know what to believe anymore. But I will tell you one thing; I see the stain of insurance lobbyists all over it. And the inclusion of the "right of choice" into the bill smells of a concession to conservatives---actually, the whole f**kin' thing does. It all seems designed to steer even more money to the already well-heeled private insurance industry. I would still like to see a true "Single Payer" type system in place, but our government is just so GD corrupt it's unbelieveable. Instead of getting insurance and pharma execs out of the way, we're handing them the whole kit-n-kaboodle. We can't seem to do anything without a million parasites piling on to steal every fucking cent, and then some.

What gets me is all of this "I trust private industry over government", or "I trust government over private industry.".... If anyone hasn't seen that they have become one and the same.................:mad::confused:

I dunno, I am just really confused right now. I no longer trust anyone.
So just leave me alone for a while.

Dave

[Boreas]

I dunno, I am just really confused right now. I no longer trust anyone.
So just leave me alone for a while.

Dave

I know the feeling.

John

[noonereal]

I took the "Kill Bill" avatar down because I'm waiting to see what comes out of reconciliation. I'm not optimistic but I think it's safe to say that the House won't accept the Senate bill as written so changes will occur.

As it stands now the bill is pretty damned bad. Here's a list of ten of the worst things about the bill compiled by Firedog Lake.

How bad is the bill?

1. Forces you to pay up to 8% of your income to private insurance corporations -- whether you want to or not

2. If you refuse to buy the insurance, you'll have to pay penalties of up to 2% of your annual income to the IRS

3. After being forced to pay thousands in premiums for junk insurance, you can still be on the hook for up to $11,900 a year in out-of-pocket medical expenses.

4. Massive restriction on a woman's right to choose, designed to trigger a challenge to Roe v. Wade in the Supreme Court

5. Paid for by taxes on the middle class insurance plan you have right now through your employer, causing them to cut back benefits and increase co-pays

6. Many of the taxes to pay for the bill start now, but most Americans won't see any benefits -- like an end to discrimination against those with preexisting conditions -- until 2014 when the program begins.

7. Allows insurance companies to charge people who are older 300% more than others

8. Grants monopolies to to drug companies that will keep generic versions of expensive biotech drugs from ever coming to market.

9. No reimportation of prescription drugs, which would save consumers $100 billion over 10 years

10. The cost of medical care will continue to rise, and insurance premiums for a family of 4 will rise an average of $1000 a year -- meaning in 10 years, you family's insurance premium will be $10,000 more annually than it is right now.

This is only one source, and one with a left bias, but it's largely consistent with other critiques I've read.

John

Somebody please point out any positive in this bill.

[noonereal]

Good, bad, or indifferent passage of this bill is quite an accomplishment, maybe the biggest since the reform of the tax code.

Pete

Pete with all respect, drinking left wing cool aide is no different than drinking right wing cool-aide.

The right is happier about this bill than is the left. They just have not told the Palin lovers that they won yet so as not to get a backlash from the left till it's law.

[noonereal]

Yes, it is. Every president since TR wanted to do something about health care and they couldn't get it done. This is quite a legislative accomplishment on the part of Obama and the Dems.

John, :( I am disappointed. It's a victory for corporate helathcare and NOTHING else.

We lost, Obie lost. The right won, the dolts will be celebrating in the streets when it is explained to them.
The only reform we might get is if we are allowed to cut a check for the CEO of our health plans and deposit it in his personal account directly.

[Boreas]

Oh believe me, I don't like it :)

Well, that's probably one of the few things we can agree on, although for totally opposite reasons. ;)

The Right has been saying that 2/3 of the country are opposed to health care reform. That's always been a lie but now about 2/3 of the country are opposed to the Senate bill. The 30 - 40% of the Right who have always been opposed to reform have been joined by a similar number from the Left who feel the bill doesn't go far enough in helping the people and too far in helping the health care industry.

Better get used to it, everyone! The Senate bill is what's going to become law. The more I've thought about it I've come to realize that it's the only thing the Senate will pass so the House will put on a kabuki play to pretend to fight for their version but the Senate bill, or something nearly identical to it, is what will come out of Conference.

Just calling a spade a spade. Can we still use that expression? :p

Pete

Cards & gardening only.;)

John

[piece-itpete]

Sheesh, try to compliment you guys :o

And ALL SIXTY DEM VOTES and it's somehow the right. Right. Very nice.

Pete

[Boreas]

Sheesh, try to compliment you guys :o

And ALL SIXTY DEM VOTES and it's somehow the right. Right. Very nice.

Pete

In most respects the bill is a victory for the Right. I don't mean Republicans except in the fact that they'll likely gain political capital from legislation nobody will like. Rather I mean conservatives win. That includes many Democrats like Ben Nelson, Evan Bayh and Mary Landreux. It was conservative Democrats (and Lieberman) who succeeded in stripping most of the meaningful reform out of the bill.

There may be enough real reform in the final bill to allow for improvement over time. I sure hope so.

Of course, all that has happened so far is that the first of several cloture votes has taken place. Nobody has voted for a bill. They've voted for a vote. We'll see whether we get 60 votes for the final bill. It only takes 51 to pass it so we may see some people like Bernie Sanders voting their conscience.

John

[piece-itpete]

Ah, some Democrats messed up the bill so thank goodness they can blame the right :p

Pete

[Boreas]

Ah, some Democrats messed up the bill so thank goodness they can blame the right :p

Pete

The Republican offense was far worse. They "messed up" the entire process. They refused to even participate, offering no constructive input at all. All they did was sit on the sidelines, wave handfuls of blank paper and scream "Liar", "Death Panels" or "Communist" at the top of their voices.

It all boils down to what DeMint said about "breaking" Obama over the "Waterloo" of health care reform. The Republicans care more about destroying the Obama presidency than they do about benefiting the people.

John

[piece-itpete]

60 votes, it doesn't matter what the Reps do. The Dems are in the drivers seat.

Until midterms :D

Pete

[Boreas]

60 votes, it doesn't matter what the Reps do. The Dems are in the drivers seat.

Until midterms :D

Pete

So, it's okay for the Republicans to turn this entire session of Congress into the most disgusting display political cynicism I've ever seen?

Allrighty then!

John

[piece-itpete]

Very nice try. ;)

Pete

[merrylander]

DeMint? Sheesh I thought it was Demented.

[MikeCh]

This is the kind of stuff that needs to stop:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/nelson-becomes-major-player-in-health-care-deal-2009-12-21?reflink=MW_news_stmp

I know it's all about deal making, but come on damnit.

[Charles]

Well, the mid terms will tell the story.

The Donks may have overreached. According to the current polls, they have.

We can hash it out in 11 months. And we can revisit the "mandate" thing.

Chas

[Boreas]

This is the kind of stuff that needs to stop:

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/nelson-becomes-major-player-in-health-care-deal-2009-12-21?reflink=MW_news_stmp

I know it's all about deal making, but come on damnit.

Now you know why the bill we're getting is such a POS. It's not the deal making. It's the politician buying. If you didn't before, now you know why Nelson and Lieberman were such huge stumbling blocks for the Dems and why even Baucus picked up on the "it'll kill Grandma" meme.

The only way any of this will change is through public funding of election campaigns. Every single elected official ends up beholden to the special interests which financed his campaign. If he expects to get re-elected he'll need to play ball with those same special interests so they'll support him again.

John

[Boreas]

Well, the mid terms will tell the story.

The Donks may have overreached. According to the current polls, they have.

We can hash it out in 11 months. And we can revisit the "mandate" thing.

Chas

It's overreaching for some and underreaching for others. You've got folks on the right who think any bill goes too far but then you've got people on the left who believe it doesn't go far enough.

Meanwhile, the media is spinning this as if the polls reflect that Americans don't favor health care reform when at least as many people think the bill doesn't go far enough as think it goes too far. The big thing people on the left object to is being forced into buying insurance without the availability of a public option.

John

[Charles]

Now you know why the bill we're getting is such a POS. It's not the deal making. It's the politician buying. If you didn't before, now you know why Nelson and Lieberman were such huge stumbling blocks for the Dems and why even Baucus picked up on the "it'll kill Grandma" meme.

The only way any of this will change is through public funding of election campaigns. Every single elected official ends up beholden to the special interests which financed his campaign. If he expects to get re-elected he'll need to play ball with those same special interests so they'll support him again.

John

The more things change, the more they remain the same.

This is one reason I like the TEA people. They may be the hoi polloi, the great unwashed, pick your pronoun.

But they ARE the population who is tired of business as usual. Personally, I get a kick out of watching the serfs enforce their will on their masters.

Then again, I'm a serf, and I realize it.

Good , Bad, and the Ugly.

Good is: These assholes need to to know that they are WAY outnumbered.

Bad is: We'll probably wind up with a bunch of assholes who are just as bad, or worse, that the one's we already have.

The Ugly: I'm too old to start over, and I ain't too hep on picking shit with the chickens before I starve to death in my old age.

My synopsis: The Big Boys are even less enthauistic about the collapse of civilization than I am. They just want us to be their serfs...decorating lamp poles ain't their goals.

But I like seven card...sometimes you can buy a hand. Just can't do it ALL of the time. Just gotta back you bluff with a full boat from time to time.

Chas

[noonereal]

This is one reason I like the TEA people. They may be the hoi polloi, the great unwashed, pick your pronoun.



But they are protesting against their own best interests.
You don't find that a concern?

[Fast_Eddie]

Well, the mid terms will tell the story.

The Donks may have overreached. According to the current polls, they have.

We can hash it out in 11 months. And we can revisit the "mandate" thing.

Chas

I suspect the Democrats will suffer in the mid-terms. But they'll suffer less having gotten this accomplished. By 2012, however, I think people will see an economy that's improved, a health care reform package that didn't bring about doomsday and the wars winding down. It'll be a rough ride, but they're in a better place than the do-nothing party.

[piece-itpete]

But they are protesting against their own best interests. ....

... they're in a better place than the do-nothing party.

That's more like it :D

Pete

[Fast_Eddie]

You know, I don't know. When you think about it, what will the messages be. Republicans will try to campaign on economic responsability. But the Democrats will come back with their record- surpus to massive debt. It all hinges on where things are 11 months from now. Democrats will talk about health care reform cutting the debt and covering more people and point to an end to economy draining wars. Once they're all in campaing mode and this health care debate is over Democrats may look better than I'm giving them credit for.

[piece-itpete]

The Washington Post did a story, they found the midterms are all about the popularity of the Pres, iirc near or over 50%, slight loss, under, drastic, something like that.

I wouldn't count on troop levels down unless moveon is willing to credit be-tray-us with winning (I think pigs will fly first). And the Dems would be foolish to bring up deficits in light of current actions.

You guys have a large majority, I doubt if it's threatened. Might not have 60 in the Senate though.

11 months IS a long time :)

Pete

[merrylander]

Send in the clowns, don't bother they're here. It is amazing how this country can consistently come up with 100 buffoons.

[Charles]

Time to sell the tanning saloon and buy Roche.

Chas