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mini me
03-21-2013, 01:20 PM
No matter which side of the choice / pro life debate you're on, this story has got to make you stop and think.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57575157-504083/dr-kermit-gosnell-murder-trial-worker-gives-graphic-testimony-about-abortion-clinic-procedures/

"She once had to kill a baby delivered in a toilet, cutting its neck with scissors, she said. Asked if she knew that was wrong, she said, "At first I didn't.""

How could anyone not think that an act like this is wrong? How could this "doctor" practice this procedure for years withou someone reporting him sooner? How could anyone knowingly allow the life of an innocent child be destroyed in this manner, muchness the child's mother.

"Gosnell later joked that the baby was so big he could have walked to the bus stop, she said."

This man is truly evil.

barbara
03-21-2013, 03:18 PM
A tragic story, indeed. But, isolated incidences like this do not support an anti abortion stance.

ebacon
03-21-2013, 03:36 PM
Agreed. Prior to legalized abortions there were plenty of gruesome photos of teenage girls that got hacked apart in cheap hotel rooms. If a woman wants an abortion she will get one come hell or high water. The best a community can do is provide some reasonable level of support.

Nobody wants to pay for repeated ho abortions. Nobody wants to kill babies. Arguments that suggest otherwise misunderstand the known problem with taking a hard line anti-abortion stance. We've been down that road and know what there is to see.

piece-itpete
03-21-2013, 03:38 PM
Outside of the lateness I really don't see much of a difference between this and legal abortions. Cut'em up, vacuum'em out. Done!

Pete

mini me
03-21-2013, 03:56 PM
Nobody wants to kill babies.

Apparently some people do. This "doctor" had enough business to have Saturday hours, and paid his employees a premium to work Saturdays.

ebacon
03-21-2013, 04:09 PM
Apparently some people do. This "doctor" had enough business to have Saturday hours, and paid his employees a premium to work Saturdays.


That's why he is being tried for murder. The law is working as it should.

What change would you propose?

BlueStreak
03-21-2013, 04:26 PM
Agreed. Prior to legalized abortions there were plenty of gruesome photos of teenage girls that got hacked apart in cheap hotel rooms. If a woman wants an abortion she will get one come hell or high water. The best a community can do is provide some reasonable level of support.

Nobody wants to pay for repeated ho abortions. Nobody wants to kill babies. Arguments that suggest otherwise misunderstand the known problem with taking a hard line anti-abortion stance. We've been down that road and know what there is to see.

That's why he is being tried for murder. The law is working as it should.

What change would you propose?

Agreed. This man is a scumbag, he should and hopefully will be punished severely. So far, the law is working as it should.

Move on.

Dave

BlueStreak
03-21-2013, 04:32 PM
Outside of the lateness I really don't see much of a difference between this and legal abortions. Cut'em up, vacuum'em out. Done!

Pete

Okay, Pete. We'll outlaw abortion, force all of those women to carry to term against their will, "rescue" all of those unwanted babies and send them to YOU to take care of at YOUR expense. You and that glassy-eyed Bible thumping imbecile Bachmann and her closeted homosexual-in-denial husband can have at it. There will be a LOT of them, so dig deep. Good luck to the three of you.

Regards,
Dave

ebacon
03-21-2013, 04:38 PM
Pete was arguing in favor of abortions, albeit I think with his "style". :D

BlueStreak
03-21-2013, 04:42 PM
Pete was arguing in favor of abortions, albeit I think with his "style". :D

Oh, I don't think so, Ed. Abortions are a discussion we've had many times............:rolleyes:

Dave

ebacon
03-21-2013, 04:48 PM
Sigh. I can't understand the sarcasm dialect anymore. :D

bobabode
03-21-2013, 11:32 PM
Sigh. I can't understand the sarcasm dialect anymore. :D

Neither does Pete.

piece-itpete
03-22-2013, 09:03 AM
Tell you what Dave. I'll raise a million otherwise dead babies if you take in all homeless people and pay for uninsured medical folks ;)

Pete

piece-itpete
03-22-2013, 09:20 AM
Btw, I wasn't being sarcastic at all.

Pete

barbara
03-22-2013, 09:42 AM
Tell you what Dave. I'll raise a million otherwise dead babies if you take in all homeless people and pay for uninsured medical folks ;)

Pete

Pete, we already pay the medical bills for the uninsured. But, we do it in the most inefficient and costly way possible. Hence the need for some major changes in the health care system.

merrylander
03-22-2013, 09:49 AM
Much as I may regret th loss of human life,, I feel that as a man I have no right to dictate what a woman does with her body, that is between she and her doctor.

So if you are against abortion then you must also be against the proliferation of guns, and to hell with the 2nd, right?

Oh and by the way there is no suuch thing as foolproof contraception, I am the living proof of that. Considering what I did to my poor mother she might have been better to have aborted me.

piece-itpete
03-22-2013, 10:19 AM
Actually there is a form of foolproof protection :D

We've all touched many lives for better or worse, I'd miss ya Rob ;)

Pete

CarlV
03-22-2013, 01:47 PM
A tragic story, indeed. But, isolated incidences like this do not support an anti abortion stance.
Indeed.

To me this adds to how important it is to make birth control free to any woman who wants it. It really does work and it will saves the system so much money down the road in foster care, incarceration, or anything else created by bringing unwanted children into the world.


Carl

BlueStreak
03-22-2013, 02:17 PM
Indeed.

To me this adds to how important it is to make birth control free to any woman who wants it. It really does work and it will saves the system so much money down the road in foster care, incarceration, or anything else created by bringing unwanted children into the world.


Carl

I can't for the life of me figure out why no one has billed the use of contraceptives as "abortion prevention". Think about it. There would be no abortion if the pregnancy never occurs to begin with.

Dave

BlueStreak
03-22-2013, 02:36 PM
No, I don't think teaching abstainance is all that effective either. I have Bible thumper friends who used to brag about how this worked with their daughter. Well, now the girl is in college (Carefully vetted by Smitty and Beth for it's "Christain environment":rolleyes:), and getting married, "Because she has too.". Here, we go. They taught her abstainence. Because nature is what it is and young people are what they are, regardless of religious beliefs---it didn't work. (It may with some, I guess. But, I was once 20 years old once, steeped in Methodist upbringing and I screwed like a rabbit. And pretty much everyone around me was doing the same.)

Now, she's marrying this kid who knocked her up because she feels she "Has to."----Because, that's part of the belief system she was taught too. Who here thinks getting married because you "have to" is a formula for a happy marriage? I don't know, it might work out, but I 've been around long enough to see how it usually works out. Which is to say, not at all.

I think that if they had just taught her to used a damn rubber, the whole thing could have been avoided.

Dave

BlueStreak
03-22-2013, 02:43 PM
Actually there is a form of foolproof protection :D

We've all touched many lives for better or worse, I'd miss ya Rob ;)

Pete

And, only fools think teenagers and twenty somethings aren't going to have sex....or masterbate. Don't forget, that's a sin too. "...cast not thy seed upon the ground.".

Yeah, riiiiiight.:rolleyes:

Dave

mini me
03-22-2013, 10:50 PM
I think that if they had just taught her to used a damn rubber, the whole thing could have been avoided.

Dave

I guess thing have really changed a lot since I was single. In my day, it was the guy who used the rubber.

BlueStreak
03-22-2013, 11:05 PM
I guess thing have really changed a lot since I was single. In my day, it was the guy who used the rubber.

Last time I checked there were two people in the room. And, unless the scumbag was raping her, she could have stopped him at any point and insisted he put one on.

You're fairly smart. Work on being a little less shallow and you'll be alright.

Dave

merrylander
03-23-2013, 08:09 AM
No, I don't think teaching abstainance is all that effective either. I have Bible thumper friends who used to brag about how this worked with their daughter. Well, now the girl is in college (Carefully vetted by Smitty and Beth for it's "Christain environment":rolleyes:), and getting married, "Because she has too.". Here, we go. They taught her abstainence. Because nature is what it is and young people are what they are, regardless of religious beliefs---it didn't work. (It may with some, I guess. But, I was once 20 years old once, steeped in Methodist upbringing and I screwed like a rabbit. And pretty much everyone around me was doing the same.)

Now, she's marrying this kid who knocked her up because she feels she "Has to."----Because, that's part of the belief system she was taught too. Who here thinks getting married because you "have to" is a formula for a happy marriage? I don't know, it might work out, but I 've been around long enough to see how it usually works out. Which is to say, not at all.

I think that if they had just taught her to used a damn rubber, the whole thing could have been avoided.

Dave

Hell I married at 23 the first time and that was too young, neither one of us was truly ready for marriage. But boy they don't even blink whe kids want to marry - we had the banns read - no license. However when you finally realize that you made a big mistake they throw everyting but the kitchen sink in the way of undoing that mistake.

Well Florence wa 48 and I was about 6 weeks shy of 53 when we married. It was not simple, figuring out how to support two households and I got a bit impatient at times. But one day a voice said "Be still my son, when it is time you shall have what is rightfully yours". I took early retirement and that provided for one household. The word got out that I was available and a posistion was offered in NoVA along with a visa. Everything fell into place and here I am.

Yes, in 82 years I have seen a few marriages where for the formal ones they painted the shotgun white. A few hung together for the kids sake, very few, and I wonder just how much the kids were benefitted. A home where the parents are perpetually at each other's throats is usually the one where the kids leave. Sadly too often the predators get them. We support Covenant House just so that they get to the runaways first. Kids rarely run from a happy home.

CarlV
03-23-2013, 01:41 PM
Yeah Rob, one of my neighbors of 25 years left when her last went off to college. I don't think she wasted single a day getting the F out of there either. :p

I guess thing have really changed a lot since I was single. In my day, it was the guy who used the rubber.
Female condom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_condom)

I just can't get away from the "her body her choice". I surely wouldn't the shoe on the other foot.


Carl

CarlV
03-23-2013, 01:54 PM
Say, is it just out here in lib land that you can drop unwanted infants off no questions asked at police dept, fire dept, and hospitals?

Just curious, I sure am happy we have that here in any case. :)


Carl

BlueStreak
03-23-2013, 01:55 PM
I guess thing have really changed a lot since I was single. In my day, it was the guy who used the rubber.

One more point I forgot to mention-----They're Catholics.

Dave

merrylander
03-23-2013, 02:30 PM
One more point I forgot to mention-----They're Catholics.

Dave

"It is now quite lawful for a Catholic woman to avoid pregnancy by a resort to mathematics, though she is still forbidden to resort to physics or chemistry." H. L. Mencken :rolleyes:

merrylander
03-23-2013, 02:41 PM
Yeah Rob, one of my neighbors of 25 years left when her last went off to college. I don't think she wasted single a day getting the F out of there either. :p

Carl

With us it was the opposite, how to get together. The visa was the nice part because my prospective employer hired an immigration lawyer and told him "Don't tell me what I can't do, get the visa and get it fast." Luckily I was one of only twenty people working on an emerging standard and the other 19 were happy where they were, that made the lawyer's job easier. Plus a few letters from people on my side saying what a brilliant fellow I was. But when you are desperately lonely and want so badly to be with each other, months seem like years. Of course when I could fly down for a weekend it was carpe diem.;)

BlueStreak
03-23-2013, 04:15 PM
I'm meeting with someone for dinner and a movie tomorrow. Thing is, we work in the same place, different shifts, different departments, when she's at work, I'm off and vice-versa. We never see each other there. She commutes 30 miles to the west, I commute 30 miles to the east, separated by 60 miles.

This has been going on for several years.

Dave

barbara
03-23-2013, 04:36 PM
Say, is it just out here in lib land that you can drop unwanted infants off no questions asked at police dept, fire dept, and hospitals?

Just curious, I sure am happy we have that here in any case. :)


Carl

Every state has some variation of the safe baby surrender legislation. Texas was the first state to enact such a law if my memory is correct.

BlueStreak
03-23-2013, 04:54 PM
Here, they find babies, sometimes alive, sometimes not, in dumpsters and other extemely undesirable locations. Occasionally, someone will leave one on the steps at a police station or hospital, but I don't know if we have an actual public program for this. If not, we should. I know we have a private charity hospital, Childrens Hospital of the Kings Daughters, that will take them in. In fact, I believe that's where child welfare takes them if they go unclaimed or family is not found.

http://www.chkd.org/

It's where I make all of my thrift donations. Sometimes, I buy music there, record it and redonate it, so they can sell it again. Just my way of helping out.

Kudos to Texas and California.

Dave

barbara
03-23-2013, 05:40 PM
Not long ago, there was an incident near where I live where a young girl brought her baby to the fire department and they accepted it.
Then, somebody noted that local law identified hospitals and churches as safe places to surrender a child, but fire stations were not specifically listed.
Law enforcement briefly considered charging her with child abandonment but public sentiment favored the young girl as her intent was for a safe surrender.
The law was amended to include fire stations.

merrylander
03-24-2013, 08:19 AM
I'm meeting with someone for dinner and a movie tomorrow. Thing is, we work in the same place, different shifts, different departments, when she's at work, I'm off and vice-versa. We never see each other there. She commutes 30 miles to the west, I commute 30 miles to the east, separated by 60 miles.

This has been going on for several years.

Dave

Ah but you two have the internet, e-mail, Skype, instant feedback. With us it was the post office or the phone companies. Sometimes my letters took two weeks to get to her. So how do you think I reacted when a lovely woman who has not seen all of my declarations as yet but declares her unconditional love?
Well how would you expect a man who has walked the borders of hell to react to an offer of Heaven.

piece-itpete
03-25-2013, 11:44 AM
'You're a poet and don't know it ' ;)

Pete

merrylander
03-25-2013, 01:47 PM
In case you wonder at how a courtship by post works, here are the letters

Charles
05-11-2013, 06:35 PM
In case you wonder at how a courtship by post works, here are the letters

I would like to express my admiration for your character, as you truly understand what is valuable in this life.

Chas

merrylander
05-12-2013, 08:44 AM
I would like to express my admiration for your character, as you truly understand what is valuable in this life.

Chas

The unconditional love of a good woman is priceless.:)

We met in the east coast blizzard of Feb 11-12 1983, both off the road stranded in a hotel lobby. She semed rather nervous so I offered her my protection throughout that night. This past Feb 12 I brought home a bottle of champagne to celebrate the 30th anniversary of that meeting. She does admit that I had/have a way with words.

Out of curiousity I counted them - there are 61 letters in the first stack and 42 in the second for a total of 103. After the 31st letter I asked her to marry me and she said yes, the rest were just staying in touch while I worked out the details of how to support my ex and then find another job to support us.

merrylander
06-13-2013, 02:22 PM
Putting all the letters into a context by recalling what was said in the phone calls has been tiring. I did not realize when I started this story for our granddaughters just how emotional the trip down memory lane would be.