PDA

View Full Version : Standards of Respect


Fast_Eddie
11-12-2009, 03:06 PM
The Patriotism thread reminded me of this. A couple of years ago I started flying my flag again. I had stopped because I didn't like what some people were trying to make it mean. But I figured if I gave up on the flag, they win.

The political tides have turned and I see a lot of people now putting flags out who didn't before. God love them for it. But I still see a lot of things that I don't much care for.

Reference this:

http://www.usflag.org/flag.etiquette.html

I'm pretty sure a tatty, dirty flag being ripped to shreds in the bed of your pick-up is not showing respect. I think a cable news network using it to advertise their brand of partisan divisiveness is not showing respect. I'm pretty sure that a shirt with a flag and an eagle is not only tasteless, but disrespectful. I think using the flag in the logo for your plumbing company and painting it on the side of your van, while admirable, is disrespectful.

Guess I'm just getting old. Those are my thoughts. What do you guys think?

hillbilly
11-12-2009, 03:34 PM
What bugs me is that '' ALL USA FLAGS '' should be made in the USA ( IMO ), but many are imported from you know where. :(

BlueStreak
11-12-2009, 03:38 PM
I have always flown the flag. Except during extreme weather, when it could
get blown down and become damaged or soiled.

The sad reality, as I see it, is that the flag, and other patriotic symbols, has been "highjacked" by the right to symbolize (solely) what they believe. As I have said, I fly mine 7/24/365. I have had people assume things about me that simply aren't true, because of this. And I blame the "partisan devisiveness" as you call it, for this.

I ask;
How did we arrive at this point? How is it that so many have come to believe that you are "un-American" or "Hate America" if you don't agree with all, or even some of their viewpoints. To my mind there is only one answer. Propaganda, plain and simple. And a generation now steeped in this bullshit for decades.

Dave

d-ray657
11-12-2009, 05:02 PM
I have always flown the flag. Except during extreme weather, when it could
get blown down and become damaged or soiled.

The sad reality, as I see it, is that the flag, and other patriotic symbols, has been "highjacked" by the right to symbolize (solely) what they believe. As I have said, I fly mine 7/24/365. I have had people assume things about me that simply aren't true, because of this. And I blame the "partisan devisiveness" as you call it, for this.

I ask;
How did we arrive at this point? How is it that so many have come to believe that you are "un-American" or "Hate America" if you don't agree with all, or even some of their viewpoints. To my mind there is only one answer. Propaganda, plain and simple. And a generation now steeped in this bullshit for decades.

Dave

I think those of us on the left have to share in some of the blame. There are particular positions that are supposed to be part of the "liberal" agenda, which might cause some of us on the left to not critically analyze certain issues. The United States is supposed to be a liberal democracy in an historic sense of the word. It is a government in which pluralism of ideas and religion is sufficiently important to be protected in the Constitution. Accordingly, the principles of our government encourage each of us as citizens to freely discuss and consider a broad range of views on each issue. A demand of fealty to the party line is inconsistent with the ideals upon which our nation was founded.

On the other hand, what has made it worse is the illicit marriage between politics and religigion. The symbiotic relationship has led to allegations akin to heresy whether the issue being discussed is political or religious. One can be conservative in one's view of the proper path to heaven, but otherwise a caring individual who believes that the government can help those in need. Instead their religious beliefs become inextricable intertwined with views on taxation and profitability of businesses, on the prosecution of a war, or own the government's proper role in the provision of healthcare or education. And why in heaven's name does God want us to have a gun?

When the political views become indistinguishable from the religious views, the advocacy takes on a fervor that doesn't leave room for disagreement or compromise. After all, when one is the recipient of the Truth Revealed by God, how can one compromise without committing heresey?

Regards,

D-Ray

Charles
11-12-2009, 05:30 PM
I think those of us on the left have to share in some of the blame. There are particular positions that are supposed to be part of the "liberal" agenda, which might cause some of us on the left to not critically analyze certain issues. The United States is supposed to be a liberal democracy in an historic sense of the word. It is a government in which pluralism of ideas and religion is sufficiently important to be protected in the Constitution. Accordingly, the principles of our government encourage each of us as citizens to freely discuss and consider a broad range of views on each issue. A demand of fealty to the party line is inconsistent with the ideals upon which our nation was founded.

On the other hand, what has made it worse is the illicit marriage between politics and religigion. The symbiotic relationship has led to allegations akin to heresy whether the issue being discussed is political or religious. One can be conservative in one's view of the proper path to heaven, but otherwise a caring individual who believes that the government can help those in need. Instead their religious beliefs become inextricable intertwined with views on taxation and profitability of businesses, on the prosecution of a war, or own the government's proper role in the provision of healthcare or education. And why in heaven's name does God want us to have a gun?

When the political views become indistinguishable from the religious views, the advocacy takes on a fervor that doesn't leave room for disagreement or compromise. After all, when one is the recipient of the Truth Revealed by God, how can one compromise without committing heresey?

Regards,

D-Ray

I've always felt that religion was a private matter and that politics were a public matter. The two don't mix well.

People tend to take themselves too seriously. There is more than one path up the hill.

Chas

JJIII
11-12-2009, 06:26 PM
I think, (and I could be wrong,...wouldn't be the first time) that the education system that has had power over the last couple of decades has utterly failed to teach students how to think for themselves. This is in sharp contrast to the "good old days" when the minds were trained in the thought process by subject matter like Latin and the old classic literature to name a couple. The brain has to be exercised. Today's classroom is more geared to rote memory than trying to "noodle out" what the point of the lesson is. As an example I point to our friend D-ray. Just look how his posts are well thought out and put together. IMO he has been taught to think, not to just spit back what was put in front of him. (Are you embarrassed yet D-ray?) We have a major problem in education and I don't know what we can do about it with the money coming from the Feds and the teachers unions having the power that they do.

Just my $.02 worth.

d-ray657
11-12-2009, 09:10 PM
JJIII, you are too kind. Your standards might be a little too low. You have, however, succeeded in putting the pressure on me to not blabber pointlessly, as I can be prone to doing.

As might not surprise you, I don't place all of the blame at the feet of the teachers unions. The majority view here appears to be that the pay for teachers doesn't recognize the importance of their responsibilities. Without the unions, there's not a snowball's chance that they pay would ever reach adequate levels. I acknowledge that unions have sometimes allowed individual teachers escape accountability for their performance, but throughout the union movement, I am seeing accountability gaining prominence as an ideal.

Unfortunately, there is plenty of blame to go around for the state of education. Television has become habit way too many homes, and reading a rarity. (When the boys were still in grade school, we cut the TV off on Sunday night through Thursday night, and we saw some positive changes, at least until girls came to monopolize their interest, and they had to find jobs to afford the girlfriends.) When that majority of families have two working parents, it becomes more difficult to oversee homework and shut off other distractions. Our consumer society makes getting money and having stuff more important than doing well on tests (i.e. demonstrating mastery of the subject matter). Finally, an attitude of finger-pointing has detracted from everyone, including kids, being accountable for their own choices. These are somw of the issues I see in suburbia.

The issues faced by kids in many urban areas create evev greater barriers to learning as well. When a kid's not sure he's even going to get out of his neighborhood alive, it becomes pretty difficult to take the time and effort to prepare for the future. If kids are hungry, it's hard to concentrate. When a cycle of poverty has developed in neighborhoods, it's unlikely that parents are well-educated and that the kids are exposed to a lot of people who are well educated. When education is not a priority in the lifestyle, the teachers have more a challenge to engage the kids in learning; and sometimes peer pressure not to succeed academically can be greater than the peer pressure to achieve academic excellence.

Ultimately, any approach to improving eduction will have to address all of the other issues that affect the deliivery and receipt of education. An approach focused solely on the physical plant of the schools is not enough. Educational reform without some societal reform is only a half measure.

Regards,

D-Ray

Fast_Eddie
11-12-2009, 09:37 PM
I think, (and I could be wrong,...wouldn't be the first time) that the education system that has had power over the last couple of decades has utterly failed to teach students how to think for themselves. This is in sharp contrast to the "good old days" when the minds were trained in the thought process by subject matter like Latin and the old classic literature to name a couple. The brain has to be exercised. Today's classroom is more geared to rote memory than trying to "noodle out" what the point of the lesson is. As an example I point to our friend D-ray. Just look how his posts are well thought out and put together. IMO he has been taught to think, not to just spit back what was put in front of him. (Are you embarrassed yet D-ray?) We have a major problem in education and I don't know what we can do about it with the money coming from the Feds and the teachers unions having the power that they do.

Just my $.02 worth.

Actually, you agree with the Teacher's Union. Teaching to the test has resulted in exactly what you are describing. And I couldn't agree more. I was asked twice in the last month to help collage kids with an assignment where they asked me several questions- one being "what do you look for when hiring people?" I told both groups that the #1 thing I was looking for was critical thinking skills. Both groups had the same blank look on their faces.

JJIII
11-13-2009, 05:54 AM
JJIII, you are too kind. Your standards might be a little too low. You have, however, succeeded in putting the pressure on me to not blabber pointlessly, as I can be prone to doing.

As might not surprise you, I don't place all of the blame at the feet of the teachers unions. The majority view here appears to be that the pay for teachers doesn't recognize the importance of their responsibilities. Without the unions, there's not a snowball's chance that they pay would ever reach adequate levels. I acknowledge that unions have sometimes allowed individual teachers escape accountability for their performance, but throughout the union movement, I am seeing accountability gaining prominence as an ideal.

Unfortunately, there is plenty of blame to go around for the state of education. Television has become habit way too many homes, and reading a rarity. (When the boys were still in grade school, we cut the TV off on Sunday night through Thursday night, and we saw some positive changes, at least until girls came to monopolize their interest, and they had to find jobs to afford the girlfriends.) When that majority of families have two working parents, it becomes more difficult to oversee homework and shut off other distractions. Our consumer society makes getting money and having stuff more important than doing well on tests (i.e. demonstrating mastery of the subject matter). Finally, an attitude of finger-pointing has detracted from everyone, including kids, being accountable for their own choices. These are somw of the issues I see in suburbia.

The issues faced by kids in many urban areas create evev greater barriers to learning as well. When a kid's not sure he's even going to get out of his neighborhood alive, it becomes pretty difficult to take the time and effort to prepare for the future. If kids are hungry, it's hard to concentrate. When a cycle of poverty has developed in neighborhoods, it's unlikely that parents are well-educated and that the kids are exposed to a lot of people who are well educated. When education is not a priority in the lifestyle, the teachers have more a challenge to engage the kids in learning; and sometimes peer pressure not to succeed academically can be greater than the peer pressure to achieve academic excellence.

Ultimately, any approach to improving eduction will have to address all of the other issues that affect the deliivery and receipt of education. An approach focused solely on the physical plant of the schools is not enough. Educational reform without some societal reform is only a half measure.

Regards,

D-Ray


See what I mean? :)

JJIII
11-13-2009, 05:56 AM
"Teaching to the test has resulted in exactly what you are describing."

Good point.

merrylander
11-13-2009, 07:06 AM
Op Ed piece in the WashPost today saying the the real problem in the schools is the curriculum. Writer said it is designed to teach for the test and not deigned to teach the child, Not having any children in the system I can't say for sure, perhaps some of the parents can speak to this.

d-ray657
11-13-2009, 07:31 AM
I am really not familiar with the content of the current tests, so I can't speak to that, but I recall my experience with standardized tests required some analysis and application of logic. I saw some questions that required critical thinking on the samples of the SAT that the boys brought home a few years ago.

On the other hand, the current state of public discourse discourages critical thooght. If you attempt to bring up a contrary viewpoint, you get shouted down. The content of communication consists more of buzzwords than in depth analysis. And anyone who tries to disagree with me on this point is a blithering idiot, because you know I am right. :rolleyes:

painter
11-13-2009, 07:44 AM
On the other hand, the current state of public discourse discourages critical thooght. If you attempt to bring up a contrary viewpoint, you get shouted down. The content of communication consists more of buzzwords than in depth analysis. And anyone who tries to disagree with me on this point is a blithering idiot, because you know I am right. :rolleyes:


Hummm...have you read ALL the posts here? What about the homelife? Do WE teach our children critical thought? Education starts from the cradle to the grave. :)

noonereal
11-13-2009, 08:07 AM
Op Ed piece in the WashPost today saying the the real problem in the schools is the curriculum. Writer said it is designed to teach for the test and not deigned to teach the child, Not having any children in the system I can't say for sure, perhaps some of the parents can speak to this.

The curriculum is essentially the same as it was when I was in school.
I went to the board of ed and asked that instead of or in addition to teaching kids French or Spanish they teach Chinese. They looked at me like I had two heads.

d-ray657
11-13-2009, 08:12 AM
Hummm...have you read ALL the posts here? What about the homelife? Do WE teach our children critical thought? Education starts from the cradle to the grave. :)

I was merely supplementing some things I have stated before. Believe me, my kids were subjected to socratic method. While my wife and I had a pact that we would support each other's answers when the kids asked for permission for something, as they grew older, we gave them the opportunity to change our mind with legitimate reasons that did not include whining and begging. (One of my wife's favorite methods was telling the kids that if they begged, a maybe became a no.) Of course the older they got and the more responsibility they assumed, the more practice they got in making decisions.

It didn't always work. My younger son presented some impressive arguments, supplemented with research, about why he should get away with smoking pot. That ultimately resulted in his having to figure out a way to finance his first year of college on his own. That task involved a lot of critical thinking, and ended up changing his views about a lot of things.

Regards,

D-Ray

P.S. I hope you realize that I was joking in the last sentence.

merrylander
11-13-2009, 08:26 AM
Hummm...have you read ALL the posts here? What about the homelife? Do WE teach our children critical thought? Education starts from the cradle to the grave. :)


I don't know if y'all remember the Hot Wheels toy from back in the 70s. Got a set for my son one christmas and he was one disappointed boy. On TV they showed it doing a complete loop, but there was no way the set would do that. Took a while to convince him that the TV commercial was not necessarily accurate. He reacted differently to TV ads after that.

painter
11-13-2009, 08:38 AM
I was merely supplementing some things I have stated before. Believe me, my kids were subjected to socratic method. While my wife and I had a pact that we would support each other's answers when the kids asked for permission for something, as they grew older, we gave them the opportunity to change our mind with legitimate reasons that did not include whining and begging. (One of my wife's favorite methods was telling the kids that if they begged, a maybe became a no.) Of course the older they got and the more responsibility they assumed, the more practice they got in making decisions.

It didn't always work. My younger son presented some impressive arguments, supplemented with research, about why he should get away with smoking pot. That ultimately resulted in his having to figure out a way to finance his first year of college on his own. That task involved a lot of critical thinking, and ended up changing his views about a lot of things.

Regards,

D-Ray

P.S. I hope you realize that I was joking in the last sentence.


Congratulations! We raised two strong willed sons. My hubby established a good rapport right from the beginning. Boys NEED a father's influence and guidance. I was the softie. It's more difficult raising children today.
Even if you were NOT joking in your last sentence...it takes one to know one...Heh...Heh... Joking...of coarse. :)