10,000+? For how long?

[BlueStreak]

Well, it's been what, three weeks a month since the DOW rose above 10,000?

The day it poked its little head over that mark, I asked (On AK) if anyone thought it was sustainable. Most of the folks over there said "No!".
Well, it has yet to drop significantly. As a matter of fact it continues to rise, albeit slowly. Yeah, maybe I'm being impatient, but is this going to be one of those embarassing moments where somebodys doomsday predictions don't come true?

What do you guys think?

Dave

[Sandy G]

I dunno- The Dow's pretty high, but silver & gold have been doing "land-office business", too, at $1120 an ounce for gold, & $17.00 an ounce for silver-as of Friday the 13th's close...They fluctuate, too, however.

[Grumpy]

I think the Dow is inflated by the propaganda our government is feeding everyone. That and its being propped up on our tax dollars back.

IMO its bound to fail again.

[merrylander]

The theory (or explanation) I heard was that as long as the Fed keeps interest rates at 0 people are taking U.S. dollars overseas, say Thailand and buying Thai Bhats (think that is what they call their money) getting a 4 or 5 % return and then converting it back to U.S. dollars that in the interim had been devalued so they make extra profit. None of this is helping the dollar's value but the thieves in Wall Street could care less.

[Fast_Eddie]

Look at the Dow vs. the Dollar and there's no real mystery. As long as we keep a weak dollar policy in place the Dow will do okay.

[Grumpy]

Mojo jojo !

That is forever how I will envision you speaking your posts LOL

[Boreas]

Wait until commercial mortgages start going into foreclosure. It's coming and it'll send the DJIA into a tailspin.

John

[Fast_Eddie]

Mojo jojo !

That is forever how I will envision you speaking your posts LOL

Somehow seems appropriate, doesn't it?

I am *right*! But yooooouuuuu.

[Centralflori]

The theory (or explanation) I heard was that as long as the Fed keeps interest rates at 0 people are taking U.S. dollars overseas, say Thailand and buying Thai Bhats (think that is what they call their money) getting a 4 or 5 % return and then converting it back to U.S. dollars that in the interim had been devalued so they make extra profit. None of this is helping the dollar's value but the thieves in Wall Street could care less.

Only in America....................Oh wait that happens in pretty much every third world country also.:rolleyes:

[Sandy G]

Wait until commercial mortgages start going into foreclosure. It's coming and it'll send the DJIA into a tailspin.

John

Yeah, I keep hearing about that one, too...They all talk about it in darkly ominous tones, like its gonna make the housing mess look like a Sunday-School picnic...Why do I think our entire financial system is basically an ill-constructed pile of pebbles, & if the ONE pebble somehow becomes dislodged, the whole thing comes a-tumblin' down, like the Walls of Jericho ?

[merrylander]

...Why do I think our entire financial system is basically an ill-constructed pile of pebbles, & if the ONE pebble somehow becomes dislodged, the whole thing comes a-tumblin' down, like the Walls of Jericho ?

Because it is?:rolleyes:

[Sandy G]

Bingo, Buddy !! We have a Winna...Unfortunately....(grimace..)

[merrylander]

Well old friend I have long contended that our mortgage system was designed by thieves for thieves and I don't suppose Wall Street is any better.

[BlueStreak]

Yeah, I keep hearing about that one, too...They all talk about it in darkly ominous tones, like its gonna make the housing mess look like a Sunday-School picnic...Why do I think our entire financial system is basically an ill-constructed pile of pebbles, & if the ONE pebble somehow becomes dislodged, the whole thing comes a-tumblin' down, like the Walls of Jericho ?

Right now, it would appear to me that all of the pebbles are in motion.

[Charles]

Right now, it would appear to me that all of the pebbles are in motion.

Believe it or not, I'm not as negative as some of you.

The system stinks, to be sure. You can draw your conclusions from the Keynes camp, or the Ludwig von Mises camp, or from a combination of the two.

But either are economic theorys. Economic reality is that if peoples faith in the economic system fails, the system will collapse. And we're in too deep to fold.

I figure that the big boys will keep the big wheel a'spinnin". Not the 1st time that society has stared into the abyss.

Just look at the alternative.

Chas

[BlueStreak]

Believe it or not, I'm not as negative as some of you.

The system stinks, to be sure. You can draw your conclusions from the Keynes camp, or the Ludwig von Mises camp, or from a combination of the two.

But either are economic theorys. Economic reality is that if peoples faith in the economic system fails, the system will collapse. And we're in too deep to fold.

I figure that the big boys will keep the big wheel a'spinnin". Not the 1st time that society has stared into the abyss.

Just look at the alternative.

Chas

Oh, I agree 100%, Charles. If I really was as morose about the economy as I sometimes can appear to be, would I have gone out and bought a $36,000 car a month and a half ago? No. I'm not THAT stupid. I'm a bluecollar kind of guy, but I have investments and believe it or not, am on pretty solid financial ground. Few people that I know personally have used the system as successfully as I have. The irony of it is that most of my friends who are in dire straights right now, or close to it, are Republicans. The reason they are so upset about anyone tinkering with the economy is because they are the ones who are teetering on the brink.

I don't hate capitalism, I just think it could better serve everyone, if it was used more responsibly. That if we left capitalists solely to their own devices, they would suck the system dry and leave the rest of us with nothing. And, unfortunately, only strong government can prevent that, IMHO.

Dave

[d-ray657]

Oh, I agree 100%, Charles. If I really was as morose about the economy as I sometimes can appear to be, would I have gone out and bought a $36,000 car a month and a half ago? No. I'm not THAT stupid. I'm a bluecollar kind of guy, but I have investments and believe it or not, am on pretty solid financial ground. Few people that I know personally have used the system as successfully as I have. The irony of it is that most of my friends who are in dire straights right now, or close to it, are Republicans. The reason they are so upset about anyone tinkering with the economy is because they are the ones who are teetering on the brink.

I don't hate capitalism, I just think it could better serve everyone, if it was used more responsibly. That if we left capitalists solely to their own devices, they would suck the system dry and leave the rest of us with nothing. And, unfortunately, only strong government can prevent that, IMHO.

Dave

The problem is that the corporations and the money people don't really want a free market. They want to manipulate the market to their advantage. An economist appearing on NPR today discussed how the Insurance companies and medical providers have essentially taken turns gaining monopoly power in the local markets to rig the price for medical services. One insurer who can deliver 60K members to a hospital can negotiate cheap services, which the hospitals make up for with the smaller insurers and individuals. To "balance the field" the medical providers consolidated and held out for the prices they wanted. The insurance companies pass that cost on to the consumers, who have no leverage.

In the Kansas City area, there are essentially two providers who control health services in the city, Health Midwest and Shawnee Mission. Whith that type of concentration, there is essentially no free market to control prices. Every year when it comes time for my firm to renew insurance, it's not whether it will cost us more, but how much more it will cost us. Because of the health history of some in the firm, no one but the present provider will take us, so we have no choice except to pay or go naked.

Regards,

D-Ray

[merrylander]

The problem is that the corporations and the money people don't really want a free market. They want to manipulate the market to their advantage. An economist appearing on NPR today discussed how the Insurance companies and medical providers have essentially taken turns gaining monopoly power in the local markets to rig the price for medical services. One insurer who can deliver 60K members to a hospital can negotiate cheap services, which the hospitals make up for with the smaller insurers and individuals. To "balance the field" the medical providers consolidated and held out for the prices they wanted. The insurance companies pass that cost on to the consumers, who have no leverage.

In the Kansas City area, there are essentially two providers who control health services in the city, Health Midwest and Shawnee Mission. Whith that type of concentration, there is essentially no free market to control prices. Every year when it comes time for my firm to renew insurance, it's not whether it will cost us more, but how much more it will cost us. Because of the health history of some in the firm, no one but the present provider will take us, so we have no choice except to pay or go naked.

Regards,

D-Ray

This is one of the things that has always puzzled me. Come July 4th everyone drags out the red,white and blue bunting. They stand with hand over heart and sing the national anthem. The other 363 days it is the Balkan States of America.

I realize that States Rights are a touchy area, but are we a single nation or are we fifty states? On this very fancy form I have it concludes "that such person is admitted as a citizen of the United States of America" it says nowt about me being a citizen of Maryand.:confused:

[Sandy G]

Don't go talkin' 'bout States' Rights...WE lost a little argument over THAT one 145 years ago..

[Charles]

The problem is that the corporations and the money people don't really want a free market. They want to manipulate the market to their advantage. An economist appearing on NPR today discussed how the Insurance companies and medical providers have essentially taken turns gaining monopoly power in the local markets to rig the price for medical services. One insurer who can deliver 60K members to a hospital can negotiate cheap services, which the hospitals make up for with the smaller insurers and individuals. To "balance the field" the medical providers consolidated and held out for the prices they wanted. The insurance companies pass that cost on to the consumers, who have no leverage.

In the Kansas City area, there are essentially two providers who control health services in the city, Health Midwest and Shawnee Mission. Whith that type of concentration, there is essentially no free market to control prices. Every year when it comes time for my firm to renew insurance, it's not whether it will cost us more, but how much more it will cost us. Because of the health history of some in the firm, no one but the present provider will take us, so we have no choice except to pay or go naked.

Regards,

D-Ray

Haven't noticed any lobbyists being overly concerned with making sure that Ol' Chas gets a square deal.

Isn't corporatism grand???

Chas

[Charles]

Don't go talkin' 'bout States' Rights...WE lost a little argument over THAT one 145 years ago..

Rights???????

I'll trade a "right" for a "freedom" any day.

Chas

[merrylander]

Don't go talkin' 'bout States' Rights...WE lost a little argument over THAT one 145 years ago..


Maybe that little girl I heard reciting the Pladge of Allegience had it right " . . . one nation invisible . . .";)

[Fast_Eddie]

Dow at almost 10,400. Every time I see a little jump I just think it will give me a little more buffer to get out if it starts down again.

[BlueStreak]

Everytime I see it rise I think, "Maybe 11,000 by Christmas, then unemployment starts dropping next spring?" Uh, there I go with that damned optimism again.

Sorry.

Dave

[Fast_Eddie]

Everytime I see it rise I think, "Maybe 11,000 by Christmas, then unemployment starts dropping next spring?" Uh, there I go with that damned optimism again.

Sorry.

Dave

I'm with ya brother. Can't help it. I want this thing to turn around. Scarry watching what happend over the last two years. I got a couple of kids and would like to see them get the shot I had.

[d-ray657]

Haven't noticed any lobbyists being overly concerned with making sure that Ol' Chas gets a square deal.

Isn't corporatism grand???

Chas

No one wants to talk about how blatantly illegal the conduct of the providers is, and that the conduct of the insurance companies in those transactions was likely illegal as well (if the courts were to determine that they had monopoly power as a result of their control of a substantial number of subscribers). Of course, Sam Walton loved to play that game too. It certainly appeared that there was some price fixing going on on Wall Streed before the market collapse as well. The crisis also resulted in a greater concentration of banks, with the big ones swallowing up other big ones. While treasury interest rates are around 1-2%, the banks are offering a 10.5% rate to their BEST customers.

The anti-trust laws have essentially been ignored for decades, but they are still on the books. I'm sure the DOJ is pretty busy with GITMO and trying to pick up the slack for the huge backlog of civil rights cases that had been ignored, but I sure would like to see a renewed focus on antitrust laws.

Regards,

D-Ray

[Charles]

I'm with ya brother. Can't help it. I want this thing to turn around. Scarry watching what happend over the last two years. I got a couple of kids and would like to see them get the shot I had.

I would imagine that everyone is in favor of a strong economy. Well, maybe not everyone, but I certainly am. I'd like to give my boys a big raise.

The Dow at 11,000? Sounds good to me. But after the tech bubble, and the housing bubble, I can't help but fear that we may see a government spending bubble next.

But I'm in, lets see another card.

Chas

[Fast_Eddie]

The Dow at 11,000? Sounds good to me. But after the tech bubble, and the housing bubble, I can't help but fear that we may see a government spending bubble next.

I agree, but would characterize it differently. We aren't spending too much, we're just not paying enough. Less of a spending crisis than a revenue generating crisis. You can guess how I’d go about fixing that.

There are those who have said democracy will ultimately fail because sooner or later the voters discover they have the keys to the cookie jar. (I do love a good mixed metaphor) It’s looking more and more like we’re getting there. Lower taxes, then lower taxes. After that, we need a tax cut. We’re not the most responsible lot. And if anyone were stupid enough to run on a “we need to pay the bills” ticket, I’d not count their chances of getting elected as very high.

[Charles]

No one wants to talk about how blatantly illegal the conduct of the providers is, and that the conduct of the insurance companies in those transactions was likely illegal as well (if the courts were to determine that they had monopoly power as a result of their control of a substantial number of subscribers). Of course, Sam Walton loved to play that game too. It certainly appeared that there was some price fixing going on on Wall Streed before the market collapse as well. The crisis also resulted in a greater concentration of banks, with the big ones swallowing up other big ones. While treasury interest rates are around 1-2%, the banks are offering a 10.5% rate to their BEST customers.

The anti-trust laws have essentially been ignored for decades, but they are still on the books. I'm sure the DOJ is pretty busy with GITMO and trying to pick up the slack for the huge backlog of civil rights cases that had been ignored, but I sure would like to see a renewed focus on antitrust laws.

Regards,

D-Ray

I'm not sure as to what this GITMO thing really is. Just how long does it take to have a trial?

Perhaps GITMO and things like it are simply the ruse, keep everyone's attention focused on the left hand, so that they don't notice what the right hand is, or isn't doing.

Chas

[d-ray657]

I'm not sure as to what this GITMO thing really is. Just how long does it take to have a trial?

Perhaps GITMO and things like it are simply the ruse, keep everyone's attention focused on the left hand, so that they don't notice what the right hand is, or isn't doing.

Chas

I probably shouldn't have mentioned GITMO in this context. My point is that the DOJ has criminal and civil jurisdiction to pursue price-fixing and other monopolistic behavior, and for years, corporations have been getting a wink and a nod instead of enforcement.

Regards,

D-Ray

[BlueStreak]

I'm not sure as to what this GITMO thing really is. Just how long does it take to have a trial?

Perhaps GITMO and things like it are simply the ruse, keep everyone's attention focused on the left hand, so that they don't notice what the right hand is, or isn't doing.

Chas

Bingo, Chas!

Just like this stupid "Terrorists on American Soil" hysteria. So long as they're kept inside the penitentiary----who in their right mind gives a shit? It's just another scare tactic.
"OOOooooo! You're not letting terrorists molest my kids, Obama!!!" Please.:rolleyes:

Now, the civil trial thing does complicate things. And I agree it is bullshit. (IMO, they should have been shot on the battlefield.) But what most people don't understand or aren't being told is that the millitary tribunal was already attempted and shot down-----by the millitary JAG Corp itself, during the Bush Administration. But, to whom is all blame being assigned for this as well?:rolleyes:

Don't get me wrong, Obama has made some decisions that have me scratching my head. But, I'm just being objective. He is not entirely to blame for all of this mess.

Dave

[BlueStreak]

We're getting way off topic, again.

Dave

[merrylander]

And if anyone were stupid enough to run on a “we need to pay the bills” ticket, I’d not count their chances of getting elected as very high.


In fact there was a proposition on the recent ballots in the states of Maine and Washington along the lines of California's Prop 13. It was rejected by the voters because they figured it would lead to failing infrastructure.

There may be hope after all. Now if Congress has the cojones to let the Bush tax cut die a quiet death . . .

[Fast_Eddie]

There may be hope after all. Now if Congress has the cojones to let the Bush tax cut die a quiet death . . .

If this happens I'll be convinced there is some hope. Not holding my breath. The Republicans go on and on when it's some spending they don't want. "We can't afford it? Where will the money come from?" Watch the hypocrites when this comes up. "How could you raise taxes?!"

[BlueStreak]

Well when you've respond to an inability to pay your bills by accepting lower pay, you just let all of your loans default and file bankrupcy, right? Then quit buying the tools you need to do your job to save money. Then when you get fired for not being able to do your job, (Due to the lack of tools.), you blame all of the people who were "stupid enough" to loan you all of this money in the first place, and say, "Well, I guess I'll just go live in the woods the way a truly rugged individual would. 'Cuz this modern economics thing is just a big BS dependency scheme. Real men live off of the land, anyhow! Hoorah!!!!!!!"

Isn't that how it works?

Dave

[merrylander]

If this happens I'll be convinced there is some hope. Not holding my breath. The Republicans go on and on when it's some spending they don't want. "We can't afford it? Where will the money come from?" Watch the hypocrites when this comes up. "How could you raise taxes?!"

I think the Republicans are suffering from PMS.


PMS = Pi** and Moan Syndrome.:)

[Fast_Eddie]

Wow Dave, I think that might be pretty much it. When you move to the woods, don't forget to take your Plasma TV (from Wal-Mart and made in China). Otherwise you won't be able to watch The Howard Beale Hour on Fox News.

[Charles]

I probably shouldn't have mentioned GITMO in this context. My point is that the DOJ has criminal and civil jurisdiction to pursue price-fixing and other monopolistic behavior, and for years, corporations have been getting a wink and a nod instead of enforcement.

Regards,

D-Ray

I got your point the first time, I suppose my response wasn't very plain.

It was a round about way of saying that the DOJ doesn't want to go after the corporations. No one in Washington has the will to go after their sugar daddies.

Chas

[merrylander]

Will? It is the first time I have heard them called that.:D

[d-ray657]

I got your point the first time, I suppose my response wasn't very plain.

It was a round about way of saying that the DOJ doesn't want to go after the corporations. No one in Washington has the will to go after their sugar daddies.

Chas

I'm thinking class action then. The only problem is that most of the experienced anti-trust lawyers are business lawyers. Private anti-trust litigation is most often business against business, with both sides wanting more control of the market. In this case the greatest harm is to the consumers. I would love to see the fat cats pay.

Regards,

D-Ray

[Charles]

I'm thinking class action then. The only problem is that most of the experienced anti-trust lawyers are business lawyers. Private anti-trust litigation is most often business against business, with both sides wanting more control of the market. In this case the greatest harm is to the consumers. I would love to see the fat cats pay.

Regards,

D-Ray

As long as the powers that be can keep us rubes convinced that the one party system is actually two, I don't expect much meaningful change.

Chas

[merrylander]

As long as the powers that be can keep us rubes convinced that the one party system is actually two, I don't expect much meaningful change.

Chas

That's why they are called left wing and right wing, two wings, one bird.:D

[Fast_Eddie]

Dow is down 18 as I write this. CNBC just reported that the problem is that taxes are too high. Damed liberal media.

[BlueStreak]

Up another 168 points this morning. Probably fueled by the beginning of the Holiday shopping season, would be my guess. I expect it might drop a tad after the After New Years sales are over.

Anyone think maybe the rights worst fear is that the economy WON'T crash next year?

Dave

[Fast_Eddie]

Closed over 10,400 mid last week and then sold off a bit. So only really up 80 or so from there today (so far) on light volume. So it's not like everyone is rushing in. Still, up all the same. I'll take it.

[hillbilly]

Up another 168 points this morning. Probably fueled by the beginning of the Holiday shopping season, would be my guess. I expect it might drop a tad after the After New Years sales are over.

Anyone think maybe the rights worst fear is that the economy WON'T crash next year?

Dave


I may be looking at this wrong but this mornings news here on NBC said we just may face high gas prices again soon. The last time it went through the roof was sposed to been because of supply and demand, but this time they say it's because gas sales are down do to less people driving and they are losing money because of it.

When gas gets out of reach, everything from goods, food, to utilities goes up with it. I remember when our 130.00 light bill turned into 500+ when gas went up last time. It's trickled back down to under 200.00 a month now ( still to high but better than 500 ), but if gas goes up again, so will the light bill. At least thats what Middle Tennesseean's have noticed. Why else would everyones light bills more than double? They told people it was because of the waste spill they had to clean up, but folks had already seen 100 or more a month spikes in their bills before the spill happen.

Any time people can't afford gas and everything else that goes up in costs because of gas prices, they have no money to spend.They also must choose between making their house payments or buying gas to get to their jobs to be able to feed their kids. Thats an awefull choice for folks to have to make. With the thought of people out of work, and many of the ones who are working barely making it doing the best they can at this point, it makes me think just how bad it'd be next time with many folks already down. I'd hate to see another crash period, but it'd be really bad to see another one when this country hasn't even got back on track yet. Scary thought.

[BlueStreak]

I don't understand what the price of gasoline has to do with your electric bill going up so much. I can see some, but THAT much? Most electricity in this country is either generated from coal, or nuclear energy. And coal is transported to powerplants by train, a far more efficient method than delivery by truck. As I understand it, pretty much all trains are driven electrically, by an on board diesel generator powering electric motors. (Hybrids, basically.) So, I would think petroleum costs wouldn't affect electricity generation nearly as much as other industries.

I know, I'm off topic, but this is just a thought that struck me while I was reading your post.

Dave

[Boreas]

I don't understand what the price of gasoline has to do with your electric bill going up so much. I can see some, but THAT much? Most electricity in this country is either generated from coal, or nuclear energy. And coal is transported to powerplants by train, a far more efficient method than delivery by truck. As I understand it, pretty much all trains are driven electrically, by an on board diesel generator powering electric motors. (Hybrids, basically.) So, I would think petroleum costs wouldn't affect electricity generation nearly as much as other industries.

I know, I'm off topic, but this is just a thought that struck me while I was reading your post.

Dave

Here's the breakdown from DOE:

Coal 44.4%
Natural Gas 23.2%
Nuclear 20.4%
Hydroelectric 7.1%
Petroleum 1.1%
Other 3.6%

That "Other" category is the disturbing one. It tells us that less than 4% of all power generated in the US comes from solar, wind, geothermal, pyrolysis and all other "alternative" sources combined.

John

[BlueStreak]

Right, so coal would be the only thing on this list, other than petroleum that is actually transported on a vehicle of some sort. Well, there is nuclear fuel, but as I understand that is transported primarily by rail as well. The rest are all delivered by pipeline, or natural forces--waterfall, wind, and sunshine, and the product is delivered via wire.

So, where does the electricity industry get off claiming they must raise prices by 50-100% because of gasoline price increases?

Smells like bullshit.

Dave

[Boreas]

So, where does the electricity industry get off claiming they must raise prices by 50-100% because of gasoline price increases?

Smells like bullshit.

Dave

Dave, I think where Hillbilly lives, Central Tennessee, virtually all power generation comes from locally mined coal and hydro from the TVA. If I'm right gasoline doesn't factor in the equation at all except for the meter reader's trucks. ;)

[merrylander]

Power generation should never be left to private industry. I just bought a bigger emergency generator because of all the power failures we have here with BG&E and their parent Constipation Energy. When I lived in Quebec (Hydro Quebec) and Ontario (Ontario Hydro) power failures were such a rarity that anyone there selling emergency generators would go broke. The rates are also half what they are here.

[Boreas]

Power generation should never be left to private industry.

No component of critical infrastructure should be in private hands. That means health care too.

I just bought a bigger emergency generator because of all the power failures we have here with BG&E and their parent Constipation Energy. When I lived in Quebec (Hydro Quebec) and Ontario (Ontario Hydro) power failures were such a rarity that anyone there selling emergency generators would go broke. The rates are also half what they are here.

Hydro Quebec & Ontario Hydro are run by their respective provinces? Like their health care? Hmmmmm.

When I was a BG&E customer, up until 10 years ago, power outages were rare and when they occurred, they were addressed quickly. On the other hand, where I live now PG&E is a real PITA. Some places in California, Sacramento and San Diego, have MUDs, or Municipal Utility Departments. They're much better than PG&E. Rates are lower and service is better. I think Sacramento's MUD even gives you water for free, though in the drought plagued semi-desert that is most of California I have to wonder how smart that is.

John

[hillbilly]

Well they claim rates are dropping 15% this winter, but last years rates were totaly insane. I don't care how they look at it, we didn't suck 537.00 worth of juice without a furnace. Like I said, 130 in the winter ' using the furnace ' was a norm, and in the spring when no a/c was needed our bill would be around 60.00.

Our climate control went out year before last, so we spent a summer without a/c and our bill on the hottest month was 330.00. I raised hell with the power company and the first thing they told me was it was a hot month and it's to be expected when you run the a/c. I was real quik to tell them our a/c was not in service, and had not been since the fall before. But it didn't help, it was either pay the bills we were getting fucked on, or cancel service. What I find rather odd is that after fixing the a/c and using it all summer this year, our bill is under 200.00 again, getting slowly back to normal.

Last fall, our furnace failed and I couldn't afford the part to fix it for a while. But, we got this insane bill for 537.00 when we were having to burn a non electric kerosene heater to stay warm til we could fix the electric furnace. Middle TN electric blamed record cold temps as the blame for pissed off customers high electric bills. It's a good thing our furnace was not in use, if it had been, we'd probly gotton an electric bill even higher. This couple had to sell their house and move in with one of their children because their house payment was under 500 a month, but their electric bill jumped to nearly 900 dollars. The figures that the electric co gave people were not true, could not have been.

They did get one part right though, and that is the 'normal' bill should be around 120-130's. But for them to say they only raised the rates 15% ' for whatever reason ' is totaly bullshit. Peoples bills showed otherwise, and in our case hot days and cold days shouldn't have mattered since the unit was down and all power was shut off to it until I was able to buy parts.
.................................................. ................................................
Middle Tennessee Electric says bills will go down following TVA rate drop
Mitchell Kline • The Tennessean • November 19, 2009

It should cost less to light the Christmas tree than it did last year.
Middle Tennessee Electric Membership Corp. officials said the average electric bill this November will be more than 15 percent lower than last year.
That’s because the Tennessee Valley Authority, which provides power to MTEMC and most of the state, has decreased its charges.
In Oct. 2008, the TVA raised its rates to a 30-year high, pushing the average electric bill in November to $153.88, according to Middle Tennessee. A customer who uses 1,500 kwh per month would pay $129.67 this month, according to MTEMC officials.

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20091119/MTCN06/91118023/Middle+Tennessee+Electric+says+bills+will+go+down+ following+TVA+rate+drop

.................................................. ...............................................

When customers shocked by skyrocketing power bills question Bristol Virginia Utilities or Bristol Tennessee Essential Services, the answer often received is it’s been colder than usual.

It’s an answer that is unsatisfying to a growing number of frustrated customers – who’ve seen record-breaking amounts due on their December and January bills.

“My electric bill for January is $886.51 – it’s the highest I’ve ever seen it,” Dorcas Blaylock, a 70-year-old BTES customer, said Monday. “Me and my husband, Donald, live on Social Security payments, and our house payment is only $498. He took that money down to BTES today [Monday] to help pay the bill. But he was told our bill right now is already as high as this bill.”

The Blaylocks made the choice to sell their home and move in with their daughter just minutes after the news.

“We’re going to put our house up for sale,” Dorcas Blaylock said. “I just don’t understand it. How in the world can it be that high? There must be something more to this.”

And, there is. But it doesn’t hurt to begin the search by looking closely at the most obvious reason: the weather.

“It’s very important for folks to understand – temperatures drive consumption, both in the winter and summer,” said Gil Francis, a spokesman for the Tennessee Valley Authority, which supplies power to both BTES and BVU.

“This spring, the bills will drop,” Francis said. “But one day it will be 70 degrees, and then it will jump to 90 and the consumption becomes a huge part of the equation again.”

Record-breaking cold

November 2008 was the eighth-coldest November on record for the Tri-Cities area, according to the U.S. Department of Commerce’s National Climatic Data Center.

December turned out to be a month of extreme highs and lows, while January’s temperatures were closer to normal. But neither were anywhere near as cold as November.
For most customers, the billing cycle that produced the record-breaking December power bills included a few weeks of November.

“November was extremely cold, and that period was included in December bills,” BTES Executive Director Michael Browder said at the utility’s mid-January board meeting during a discussion on the higher-than-normal electric bills and the rash of complaints that followed.

“But we had more degree days in December than in November,” Browder said.

http://www2.tricities.com/tri/news/local/article/why_so_high/20786/

[Fast_Eddie]

I'm not sure what you're saying. See, utilities operate for profit and so should be allowed to run their business as they see fit. Capitalism unfetterd and pure. If allowed to do this they will always "self regulate" and operate in the best interest of their customers, especially if they are a monopoly. I know this is true because Reagan said so.

You seem to be implying that some other authority should exist to look out for the needs of citizens and regulate industry to make sure they aren't taking advantage of their customers.

Socialist.

[Boreas]

“It’s very important for folks to understand – temperatures drive consumption, both in the winter and summer,” said Gil Francis, a spokesman for the Tennessee Valley Authority, which supplies power to both BTES and BVU.

See, here's a big part of the problem. We've got the TVA which generates all the power in the state of Tennessee - all of it - but do they sell that power to consumers? Nope! they sell it, at a profit, of course, to "utility companies" that generate no power. They're just middle men who add their own profit to the price of power and sell it to the consumers.

John

[Boreas]

You seem to be implying that some other authority should exist to look out for the needs of citizens and regulate industry to make sure they aren't taking advantage of their customers.

Socialist.

Why, that's just crazy!

John

[noonereal]

I'm not sure what you're saying. See, utilities operate for profit and so should be allowed to run their business as they see fit. Capitalism unfetterd and pure. If allowed to do this they will always "self regulate" and operate in the best interest of their customers, especially if they are a monopoly. I know this is true because Reagan said so.

You seem to be implying that some other authority should exist to look out for the needs of citizens and regulate industry to make sure they aren't taking advantage of their customers.

Socialist.

lmao, great post.

[merrylander]

Hydro Quebec & Ontario Hydro are run by their respective provinces? Like their health care? Hmmmmm.

When I was a BG&E customer, up until 10 years ago, power outages were rare and when they occurred, they were addressed quickly.
John

Yep, both owned and operated by the provincial governments, as a side not if it was not for Hydro Quebec's efficiency large parts of the northeast would be freezing in the dark.

BG&E has now become the the worst defacer of trees, well ahead of hurricanes and ice storms. Constellation nergy (not what I call them) got a 72% increase last year and recently sold off its nuclear plant to the French. Funny thing is the French government will not allow foreign firms to buy up French companies.

[Boreas]

Constellation nergy (not what I call them) got a 72% increase last year and recently sold off its nuclear plant to the French. Funny thing is the French government will not allow foreign firms to buy up French companies.

Yeah, after your earlier post I looked up Constellation Energy. I saw that about the French firm buying around 50% of Constellation's stock & assets. Crazy! Not only is critical infrastructure in private hands. It's in foreign hands! Indiana sold the Indiana Toll Road to a Spanish/Australian consortium too.

Freakin' nuts!

John

[d-ray657]

Yeah, after your earlier post I looked up Constellation Energy. I saw that about the French firm buying around 50% of Constellation's stock & assets. Crazy! Not only is critical infrastructure in private hands. It's in foreign hands! Indiana sold the Indiana Toll Road to a Spanish/Australian consortium too.

Freakin' nuts!

John

I have to thank the green emphasis for my current circumstances - which energy-wise have improved significantly. We had put off and put off replacing our 30+ year old furnace and AC, until the furnace belched and caught the basement on fire a couple of years ago. We bought a heat pump and a two-stage gas furnace. As an incentive to buy the heat pump, the electric Co. gives us a 50% discount on the electric rate from October through May (as long as we own the home). We also use much less gas, because the gas heat doesn't kick in until the air temp is too low for the heat pump to work - about 35 degrees. We also use a gas stove, which is considerably more energy efficient than an electric stove. It took a little while to see the difference, since we are on average pay, but now our bills are down by over 40% and both utilities owe us money on our average pay plan. It feels good to take a little bit of advantage of the utilities, but I'm sure they get tax credits for the rebate program.

Regards,

D-Ray

[merrylander]

Odd, our Trane 1400 still extracts heat from 22 degree outdoor temps. It is a high efficiency unit about twice as big as the average 3-ton unit while still only having a 3-ton rating. Has a scroll type compressor too, really quiet.