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d-ray657
11-03-2013, 02:21 PM
When I did my introductory post here, one of the things that I said was important to me was showing that Christianity does not belong to the right wing of political parties. The United Methodist Church has developed over the years a statement of Social Principles. Here is my favorite:

Work and Leisure. Every person has the right to a job at a living wage. When the private sector cannot or does not provide jobs for all who seek and need them, it is the responsibility of government to provide for the creation of such jobs. We support social measures that ensure the physical and mental safety of workers, that provide for the equitable division of products and services, and that encourage an increasing freedom in the way individuals may use their leisure time. We recognize the opportunity leisure provides for creative contributions to society and encourage methods that allow workers additional blocks of discretionary time. We support educational, cultural, and recreational outlets that enhance the use of such time. We believe persons come before profits. We deplore the selfish spirit that often pervades our economic life. We support policies that encourage the sharing of ideas in the workplace, cooperative and collective work arrangements. We Support rights of workers to refuse to work in situations that endanger health and/or life without jeopardy to their jobs. We support policies that would reverse increasing concentration of business and industry into monopolies.

If you want to see more of the Social Principles, look here. (http://www.umcsc.org/PDF/SocialPrinciples.pdf)

Regards,

D-Ray

d-ray657
11-03-2013, 02:26 PM
The statement of Social Principles has grown to be a rather comprehensive document. Here is a statement that started the development - this is from 1908.

The Methodist Episcopal Church stands:

• For equal rights and complete justice for all men and all stations of life.
• For the principles of conciliation and arbitration in industrial dissensions.
• For the protection of the worker from dangerous machinery, occupational diseases, injuries and mortality.
• For the abolition of child labor.
• For such regulation of the conditions of labor for women as shall safeguard the physical and moral health of the community.
• For the suppression of the “sweating system.”
• For the gradual and reasonable reduction of the hours of labor to the lowest practical point, with work for all; and for that degree of leisure for all which is the condition of the highest human life.
• For a release for employment one day and seven.
• For a living wage in every industry.
• For the highest wage that each industry can afford, and for the most equitable division of the products in the industry that can ultimately be devised.
• For the recognition of the Golden Rule and the mind of Christ is the supreme law of society and the sure remedy for all social ills.


Growing up in the Church, this philosophy has played a large role in the development of my political ideals.

Regards,

D-Ray

bobabode
11-03-2013, 03:18 PM
Hear, hear!:)

merrylander
11-03-2013, 03:33 PM
My Dad was so much a Methodist my older brother was named Wesley, may he rest in peace

BlueStreak
11-03-2013, 05:30 PM
Hmmmmmm...................

We were Methodist and Pop was a Union guy for most of his life. I wonder how our rightwing friends reconcile their religious beliefs with their obviously anti-worker politics?

And, when I say "anti-worker", I'm sure I will be reminded that they believe "anti-Union is not anti-worker".

A point to which I beg to differ. My fathers generation saw far better reward for their labors than mine ever will. And, I happen to believe this is no accident. The growing wealth disparity is my evidence.

Dave

Charles
11-03-2013, 06:48 PM
You can't get there from here. There's too many people in the way.

Chas

icenine
11-03-2013, 07:07 PM
The Tip Jar at all the Subways and Little Caesars speak volumes.

You never saw that stuff in the 70s at fast food franchises.

mpholland
11-03-2013, 07:15 PM
Back in the day, many of the business owners were members of esteem in their respective congregations. They actually felt compelled to adhere to this type of philosophy. As the years go by, there is as much a separation of church and business as there is of church and state. As big government caters to big business, I don't find this surprising. One of the biggest problems with business and government these days is that big businesses are actually a very small percentage of the businesses in the country. I have never worked long term for a business of more than 50 people. In my work experience, I have almost always been treated fair. This suggests to me that small businesses try for the most part, but since huge corporations have such price and distribution advantages it has cut the profit margins down so far that small business doesn't have as much to spend on their employees. I know the owners of the businesses I have worked for have made substantially more than I do, but none of them were out of the lower 6 figure range.

BlueStreak
11-03-2013, 07:36 PM
You can't get there from here. There's too many people in the way.

Chas

At the MOMENT.

Dave

d-ray657
11-03-2013, 10:51 PM
Back in the day, many of the business owners were members of esteem in their respective congregations. They actually felt compelled to adhere to this type of philosophy. As the years go by, there is as much a separation of church and business as there is of church and state. As big government caters to big business, I don't find this surprising. One of the biggest problems with business and government these days is that big businesses are actually a very small percentage of the businesses in the country. I have never worked long term for a business of more than 50 people. In my work experience, I have almost always been treated fair. This suggests to me that small businesses try for the most part, but since huge corporations have such price and distribution advantages it has cut the profit margins down so far that small business doesn't have as much to spend on their employees. I know the owners of the businesses I have worked for have made substantially more than I do, but none of them were out of the lower 6 figure range.

Which makes me wonder why religious extremism and the "party of business" have engaged in a Vulcan mind meld.

Regards,

D-Ray

BlueStreak
11-03-2013, 10:54 PM
The Tip Jar at all the Subways and Little Caesars speak volumes.

You never saw that stuff in the 70s at fast food franchises.

Or, the "Homer Bucket" at Home Depot. Employees are expected to donate money to each other to help pay their bills, because they are underpaid.

If no one sees the absurdity in that....................:confused:

Dave

donquixote99
11-04-2013, 12:52 AM
Or, the "Homer Bucket" at Home Depot. Employees are expected to donate money to each other to help pay their bills, because they are underpaid.

If no one sees the absurdity in that....................:confused:

Dave

Reminds me of my experience in the fast food zone, decades ago. Management had a nifty plan to raise morale. There would be an employee of the month, there would be a little recognition party, and everyone would be docked a little to pay for the party. We were supposed to vote to adopt this happy plan.

When it didn't pass the first time, the manager called a do-over of the election. I guess people got the idea that were were going to be there until it passed, since it did the second time. Unless the manager, who was counting the votes, realized something obvious....

merrylander
11-04-2013, 08:21 AM
The reason we left the CHURCH (actually I really think they left us) was because the CHURCH has become big business. It is really quite simple, although I know that I must have disappointed him on occasion my Father never once stopped loving me (nor Mom either). Surely if an earthly father can offer unconditional love what do you suppose a Heavenly Father can do?

bobabode
11-04-2013, 06:26 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/bolz-webers-liberal-foulmouthed-articulation-of-christianity-speaks-to-fed-up-believers/2013/11/03/7139dc24-3cd3-11e3-a94f-b58017bfee6c_story.html?hpid=z1

Now, here's a new kind of minister.;)

Charles
11-05-2013, 06:50 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/bolz-webers-liberal-foulmouthed-articulation-of-christianity-speaks-to-fed-up-believers/2013/11/03/7139dc24-3cd3-11e3-a94f-b58017bfee6c_story.html?hpid=z1

Now, here's a new kind of minister.;)

The only preacher I ever really liked said a lot of the same things.

The difference is, he could do it without getting in your face.

Chas

one1
11-14-2013, 09:40 AM
AND I THOUGHT I WAS A MINORITY,i also have left the practice of attending church and any of the money raising functions.i see a lot of people struggling and too many churches getting more wealthy.it reminds me of the government but only the government is not prospering as much(or at least the part going back to the people). i get turned of by people living in a grand style and others around them not.I am also guilty of this but i do try to make others have as i have.

I believe there are good intentions but i am sure everyone know about good intention's.and once again i really really believe it is out of our hands as far as changing thing's.the plot just has to play out.but that is just how it is when you look at the big picture,everyday common life doesnt show this because a lot of us are in our comfort zone and do not want to look any further.

some of the statements i have just stated might have come out in a different way than i intended,so ask me if you are unclear on something or are offended.really i know i am screwed up and my medications kinda run my thought process sometimes.(at least that is what i will tell the court if it ever comes to that)

d-ray657
11-15-2013, 03:27 PM
AND I THOUGHT I WAS A MINORITY,i also have left the practice of attending church and any of the money raising functions.i see a lot of people struggling and too many churches getting more wealthy.it reminds me of the government but only the government is not prospering as much(or at least the part going back to the people). i get turned of by people living in a grand style and others around them not.I am also guilty of this but i do try to make others have as i have.

I believe there are good intentions but i am sure everyone know about good intention's.and once again i really really believe it is out of our hands as far as changing thing's.the plot just has to play out.but that is just how it is when you look at the big picture,everyday common life doesnt show this because a lot of us are in our comfort zone and do not want to look any further.

some of the statements i have just stated might have come out in a different way than i intended,so ask me if you are unclear on something or are offended.really i know i am screwed up and my medications kinda run my thought process sometimes.(at least that is what i will tell the court if it ever comes to that)

While I can understand that issues that people have with the institutional church, I also see the good that churches do in bringing people together for a common goal. I know that I do more volunteer work through the church than I would otherwise do. I also know that the resources our church has available to it are utilized to serve needs in the community. In any event, I can say that my experiences have been positive.

Regards,

D-Ray

one1
11-15-2013, 03:59 PM
There are lot's of good churches out there.But A lot have forgotten why there is a need for them to be.I particularly like the message that Charles Stanley gives.He is a breath of fresh air.When we slow down to a second by second view of our life situation then we can appreciate the need of each other more better.and understand the true meaning of our existence.in a simplified POV it is more defined for what it was designed for.

merrylander
11-15-2013, 04:28 PM
While I can understand that issues that people have with the institutional church, I also see the good that churches do in bringing people together for a common goal. I know that I do more volunteer work through the church than I would otherwise do. I also know that the resources our church has available to it are utilized to serve needs in the community. In any event, I can say that my experiences have been positive.

Regards,

D-Ray

Don I am truly happy that you find your church like that. Unfortunately after we married I started attending Florence's church. Father XXX did not object to the friendly neighborhood WASP. However the concregation was a miserable lot so we simply stopped attending.

Charles
11-15-2013, 05:27 PM
While I can understand that issues that people have with the institutional church, I also see the good that churches do in bringing people together for a common goal. I know that I do more volunteer work through the church than I would otherwise do. I also know that the resources our church has available to it are utilized to serve needs in the community. In any event, I can say that my experiences have been positive.

Regards,

D-Ray

While attending services, or any social event isn't my cup of tea, I tend to agree with you that organized religion is more often than not a positive attribute for society.

A lot of really decent folks attend church. After all, they're not ALL used car salesmen, insurance agents, or LAWYERS!!!

Take care,

Chas

d-ray657
11-15-2013, 10:27 PM
While attending services, or any social event isn't my cup of tea, I tend to agree with you that organized religion is more often than not a positive attribute for society.

A lot of really decent folks attend church. After all, they're not ALL used car salesmen, insurance agents, or LAWYERS!!!

Take care,

Chas

The adventurous pastors love lawyers. We give them a special challenge.

Regards,

D-Ray

BlueStreak
11-16-2013, 03:46 AM
I work with two men who are pastors.

One does not accept compensation for preaching. He has considered giving it up because it often eats up too much of his time. But, he just can't seem to walk away.

The other one accepts money from his church and plans to go supplement his income with it when he retires from his regular work.

Now, I don't care if one makes money off of it, if the congregation is willing to pay him. Whatever, that's their business.

But, I do know which one I have more respect for.....................

Dave

Charles
11-16-2013, 08:07 AM
The adventurous pastors love lawyers. We give them a special challenge.

Regards,

D-Ray

Lawyers always present a "special" challenge.

Chas

Oerets
11-16-2013, 10:17 AM
A lapsed Catholic perspective and experiences. Basically in a nut shell, talk a good talk but fail to walk the walk.

My first eye opener was when my Father was in Vietnam and my Mother with five kids was living in Government assisted housing and receiving Government Cheese. Because even though my Father was a CPO qualified due to salary. (lack there of!)

Well the Church we were attending and members of were told in clear terms. Pay up! That her volunteering was appreciated but the amount my Mother was giving was not enough. So we had to either pay up or quit Catechism and other benefits of the church. Walked away and the sting never really left inflicted to her and us. Years later started attending when the boys were small but still the wound that never healed of years ago was there. Found not all Churches were equal some were better then others. Not worried about the all mighty dollar. But now in the days of the traveling Fathers it is hit or miss. Plus the Catholic church has gone way over the edge on conservative issues.

The last straw for me with them now it seems was when my Father N Law laid dying in the hospital and the number of calls to get a priest to administer the Last Rites. Kept getting "is he a member in good standing"? Kept telling them he was home bound for years. I did find one eventually, a Father in the hall at the hospital and said he would report what had happened.

Other denominations seem to have similar problem from being overtly political to out stretched hands. The few times my a$$ was in attendance anyway. My Sister N Law and her husband just had to sign a pledge so their church could build a mega monstrosity. To compete (keep up) with the one down the road.



Barney

Rex E.
11-16-2013, 01:46 PM
A lapsed Catholic perspective and experiences. Basically in a nut shell, talk a good talk but fail to walk the walk.

My first eye opener was when my Father was in Vietnam and my Mother with five kids was living in Government assisted housing and receiving Government Cheese. Because even though my Father was a CPO qualified due to salary. (lack there of!)

Well the Church we were attending and members of were told in clear terms. Pay up! That her volunteering was appreciated but the amount my Mother was giving was not enough. So we had to either pay up or quit Catechism and other benefits of the church. Walked away and the sting never really left inflicted to her and us. Years later started attending when the boys were small but still the wound that never healed of years ago was there. Found not all Churches were equal some were better then others. Not worried about the all mighty dollar. But now in the days of the traveling Fathers it is hit or miss. Plus the Catholic church has gone way over the edge on conservative issues.

The last straw for me with them now it seems was when my Father N Law laid dying in the hospital and the number of calls to get a priest to administer the Last Rites. Kept getting "is he a member in good standing"? Kept telling them he was home bound for years. I did find one eventually, a Father in the hall at the hospital and said he would report what had happened.

Other denominations seem to have similar problem from being overtly political to out stretched hands. The few times my a$$ was in attendance anyway. My Sister N Law and her husband just had to sign a pledge so their church could build a mega monstrosity. To compete (keep up) with the one down the road.



Barney

Sad but true....

I once asked my father why he had not considered Catholicism for a religion and he told me when he was a boy living in northwest Missouri on the farm he'd see the "fathers" come out to the widow of a farmer and demand she turn the farm over to buy her husband out of purgatory......sad........

Rex E.
11-16-2013, 01:48 PM
I work with two men who are pastors.

One does not accept compensation for preaching. He has considered giving it up because it often eats up too much of his time. But, he just can't seem to walk away.

The other one accepts money from his church and plans to go supplement his income with it when he retires from his regular work.

Now, I don't care if one makes money off of it, if the congregation is willing to pay him. Whatever, that's their business.

But, I do know which one I have more respect for.....................

Dave

I agree Dave. I have no respect for a "preacher" who makes his living off of preaching. The religion I was raised in did not do such things. I explained this to a few folks I work with and they said "how did he make money", my reply, "He went to work at a job like you and I".

Sickening to see some of the salaries that folks make off preaching......

d-ray657
11-16-2013, 02:02 PM
I agree Dave. I have no respect for a "preacher" who makes his living off of preaching. The religion I was raised in did not do such things. I explained this to a few folks I work with and they said "how did he make money", my reply, "He went to work at a job like you and I".

Sickening to see some of the salaries that folks make off preaching......

I have different take. I have always attended churches where the pastors had advanced degrees. I much prefer that perspective to many of the amateur preachers I have seen. The education gives them the ability to teach from an historical perspective and to provide trained pastoral counseling. There are significant demands from the congregation for visitation, and of course for organizational management. They also have to work their way up the ranks, working first as associate pastors. Some have the responsibility for two or more churches from small towns. I don't begrudge someone who has devoted a significant portion of their lives to obtain education and training to also earning a decent salary.

Regards,

D-Ray

merrylander
11-16-2013, 02:37 PM
Where I grew up the pastor had our Union Church and the United Church across the river and he sure was occupied so likely could not have held down a job. Well he did hold down a job, he was paid to minister to both congregations.

Rex E.
11-16-2013, 03:19 PM
Making profit off the word is wrong to me. Seems much like collectors in the temple.....to each his own.

merrylander
11-16-2013, 04:21 PM
Making profit off the word is wrong to me. Seems much like collectors in the temple.....to each his own.

I don't think I would have called it profit, nrithrt congregation was exactly wealthy. It kept bread on the table and not much more. In summer he could cross by boat and in winter cross over the ice, spring and fall was a PITA.

BlueStreak
11-16-2013, 04:33 PM
Motive is my point.

To my mind one gets closer to living the example set by Christ. We works at the factory to earn his sustenance. He preaches the word of God simply because he has the irrepressible desire to.

If, for whatever reason, there was suddenly no money to be made preaching would the other guy stop? I'm pretty sure he would.

Who is more devoted?

Dave

merrylander
11-16-2013, 04:45 PM
So if he is working all day when does he do pastoral duties?

BlueStreak
11-16-2013, 05:01 PM
I don't know how he manages it, but he does. On many occasions, I've seen him come to work exhausted because he hasn't slept.

(At work, he's a supervisor.)

icenine
11-16-2013, 06:06 PM
When I was a kid the Southern Baptists at my church would have a guy three years or so and then run him off. He would either be too liberal or too conservative (in the women must wear dresses and its the end of the world next week fire and brimstone theme not political). My parents split with church when they dumped a preacher they liked and we started going to a "mission". Then that became a church on its own accord.

Odd it seemed personality played a more of a role than doctrine. I think some of these guys went to Bible Colleges and some did not.

Southern Baptists have all these rules that everyone ends up breaking, especially smoking and drinking. They did not look down on divorced people since they married my mom and dad both previously divorced. I do not know how they viewed black people in my church since there were none in our town when I grew up.


Looking back I think the main thing a successful minister has to deal with is likability vs doctrinal purity....the ones that last most likely are good at this. Good politicians lol.

After 51 years I have come to the conclusion that religion is really good at making people feel like shit about breaking all kinds of rules....and this runs in Catholicism and Protestantism. You can never shake the guilt. But of course during times of crisis God is always a prayer away.

I prayed more when I was in Iraq than at any other time in my life....of course!
Although American highways are probably more dangerous to me now than mortars were then.

one1
11-16-2013, 07:28 PM
The yin and yang effect even applies to religion.

Charles
11-17-2013, 12:48 AM
When I was a kid the Southern Baptists at my church would have a guy three years or so and then run him off. He would either be too liberal or too conservative (in the women must wear dresses and its the end of the world next week fire and brimstone theme not political). My parents split with church when they dumped a preacher they liked and we started going to a "mission". Then that became a church on its own accord.

Odd it seemed personality played a more of a role than doctrine. I think some of these guys went to Bible Colleges and some did not.

Southern Baptists have all these rules that everyone ends up breaking, especially smoking and drinking. They did not look down on divorced people since they married my mom and dad both previously divorced. I do not know how they viewed black people in my church since there were none in our town when I grew up.


Looking back I think the main thing a successful minister has to deal with is likability vs doctrinal purity....the ones that last most likely are good at this. Good politicians lol.

After 51 years I have come to the conclusion that religion is really good at making people feel like shit about breaking all kinds of rules....and this runs in Catholicism and Protestantism. You can never shake the guilt. But of course during times of crisis God is always a prayer away.

I prayed more when I was in Iraq than at any other time in my life....of course!
Although American highways are probably more dangerous to me now than mortars were then.

You know, I went through all of that shit too. I used to wonder what was wrong with me.

Then one day I realized that there wasn't anything really wrong with me...other than the fact that I was listening to these sumbitches who talked a good game, but shit between their legs just like everyone else.

Fuck them and their notions anyway. I'll never be able to live up to my own ideals...I ain't a machine.

So I do the best I can, just like every other swinging dick...only I try not to be a sanctimonious bastard at the same time. I try to be a decent sort.

It ain't like I'm out robbing banks. Although if I were to rob anyone, it would be a bank. It would be a hoot to shove a 6-gun in their faces and make off with their loot.

Other than that's a fool's errand. You rob them with a briefcase and a smile...the same way they rob you.

In short, live ain't perfect, and neither are any of us. So just do the best you can...what more can anyone expect?

Other than the bullshit artists...but watch what they do as opposed to what they say.

Chas

merrylander
11-17-2013, 08:35 AM
I must admit that the church of my youth was a more pleasnt place than many i have seen here.

The one thing that I had the most trouble with was the guilt trip that they tried to lay on me. On the one hand they said Good is a loving father then they said that I was all these terrible things.

I know that while growing up and fumbling my way through adolescence I must have disappointed Dad many times, but I never doubted for a moment that he loved me. If my earthly father could offer me uncinditional love surely my Heavenly Father could also do so.

one1
11-17-2013, 10:55 AM
You know, I went through all of that shit too. I used to wonder what was wrong with me.

Then one day I realized that there wasn't anything really wrong with me...other than the fact that I was listening to these sumbitches who talked a good game, but shit between their legs just like everyone else.

Fuck them and their notions anyway. I'll never be able to live up to my own ideals...I ain't a machine.

So I do the best I can, just like every other swinging dick...only I try not to be a sanctimonious bastard at the same time. I try to be a decent sort.

It ain't like I'm out robbing banks. Although if I were to rob anyone, it would be a bank. It would be a hoot to shove a 6-gun in their faces and make off with their loot.

Other than that's a fool's errand. You rob them with a briefcase and a smile...the same way they rob you.

In short, live ain't perfect, and neither are any of us. So just do the best you can...what more can anyone expect?

Other than the bullshit artists...but watch what they do as opposed to what they say.

Chas

I could not have said it better,I feel the same way ,a big fat FUCK YOU!!! to all that want to make me less than I am.

BlueStreak
11-17-2013, 11:11 AM
If someone can "make" you less than what you are, you have a personal problem anyways.

Kind of like these people who complain their faith is being attacked because we no longer allow the words "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. If your faith is so weak as to be toppled that easily, then you had little faith to begin with.

Dave

donquixote99
11-17-2013, 11:39 AM
It's the social power of their faith, not the faith itself, that is checked by changes like that. Religionists want to be able to 'mark the territory' with tokens of their faith culture, and they correctly perceive that their desired dominance is lessened if they are prevented in some cases from doing so--though they very likely don't understand their own motives in these terms....

Don't think it's just religious types that do this, though. Church bells and big boom-booms in the car, all same.

one1
11-17-2013, 11:44 AM
It's the social power of their faith, not the faith itself, that is checked by changes like that. Religionists want to be able to 'mark the territory' with tokens of their faith culture, and they correctly perceive that their desired dominance is lessened if they are prevented in some cases from doing so--though they very likely don't understand their own motives in these terms....

Don't think it's just religious types that do this, though. Church bells and big boom-booms in the car, all same.

It is just a trait of man to make others feel inferior.some people are so insecure they need to try and bring others into there realm.

one1
11-17-2013, 11:46 AM
Sorry i coulnt resist,I think it fits this thread,music is a very good media to sometimes relay things
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EzvcAO4VuQ

BlueStreak
11-17-2013, 12:09 PM
It's the social power of their faith, not the faith itself, that is checked by changes like that. Religionists want to be able to 'mark the territory' with tokens of their faith culture, and they correctly perceive that their desired dominance is lessened if they are prevented in some cases from doing so--though they very likely don't understand their own motives in these terms....

Don't think it's just religious types that do this, though. Church bells and big boom-booms in the car, all same.

It is just a trait of man to make others feel inferior.some people are so insecure they need to try and bring others into there realm.

Hmmmmmm............

I've often wondered about competitive types and how this relates to them.
Don't get me wrong, a certain measure of competition in the right areas is good. But, some people are so competitive they cannot stand to be outdone in any way whatsoever. I guess these folks can be found everywhere, even in organized religion. Thus the "dick measuring" that goes on when people start bragging about how many times they've read the Bible, for example*. This would be a form of insecurity as well.

Dave

(*Which I've always regarded as pure silliness. If you have to read any book more than 2-3 times and you still don't "get it"..............Know what I mean?)

donquixote99
11-17-2013, 01:05 PM
Cultural chauvinism and competitiveness, to include 'winning through intimidation,' do seem to pretty much be human universals, though obviously some people have more extreme cases....

piece-itpete
11-18-2013, 12:07 PM
I have different take. I have always attended churches where the pastors had advanced degrees. I much prefer that perspective to many of the amateur preachers I have seen. The education gives them the ability to teach from an historical perspective and to provide trained pastoral counseling. There are significant demands from the congregation for visitation, and of course for organizational management. They also have to work their way up the ranks, working first as associate pastors. Some have the responsibility for two or more churches from small towns. I don't begrudge someone who has devoted a significant portion of their lives to obtain education and training to also earning a decent salary.

Regards,

D-Ray

We are in agreement counselor. The pastors I grew up with were schooled and hard working.

Pete

Charles
11-18-2013, 03:29 PM
You know guys, religion doesn't HAVE to be boring.

http://www.brimtime.com/2013/11/pastor-caught-with-53-poisonous-snakes.html

Chas