PDA

View Full Version : Corporate America has replaced Democracy


noonereal
12-16-2009, 05:18 PM
And folks are happy to tea bag for them.

They realy are the Corporate America's bitches, in everyway.

I think it's time we took our country back.

HatchetJack
12-16-2009, 07:19 PM
Right, we should shut the evil bastards down. Stop the electric power plants,
flip the switch. Cut the gas pumps off, blockade the Mcdonalds. Close down
the malls. Free all the people from working against their will. We could spend
more time with our families foraging for food and shelter. We could also fire
all the polititians since we would not have the problem of what to do with
their money since they no longer make any. :eek:

Boreas
12-16-2009, 07:29 PM
Right, we should shut the evil bastards down. Stop the electric power plants,
flip the switch. Cut the gas pumps off, blockade the Mcdonalds. Close down
the malls. Free all the people from working against their will. We could spend
more time with our families foraging for food and shelter. We could also fire
all the polititians since we would not have the problem of what to do with
their money since they no longer make any. :eek:

Sounds like a lot of fun but there's a simpler way: public funding of elections. The mechanism for corporate control of government is money, chiefly in the form of campaign contributions. If we take that out of the equation we have a chance of reforming the government. If we don't... we don't.

John

Kamakiri
12-17-2009, 07:08 AM
And folks are happy to tea bag for them.

They realy are the Corporate America's bitches, in everyway.

I think it's time we took our country back.

Might as well fly a hot air balloon to Mars or drink the Atlantic Ocean dry with a straw.

The only way something like that's going to happen is a major surge of nationalism that would be caused by an extreme act of terrorism caused by the government. Back on 9/11, a bunch of us here at work said that if there were ground forces coming to NYC from some enemy, we'd all load up militia style in the backs of pickup trucks, bring our rifles, and head East.

If Madoff couldn't piss off one person in America enough to cause his own assassination, no grandiose idea of change will cause anyone to revolt beyond podiums such as this one.

Boreas
12-17-2009, 09:44 AM
Might as well fly a hot air balloon to Mars or drink the Atlantic Ocean dry with a straw.

The only way something like that's going to happen is a major surge of nationalism that would be caused by an extreme act of terrorism caused by the government. Back on 9/11, a bunch of us here at work said that if there were ground forces coming to NYC from some enemy, we'd all load up militia style in the backs of pickup trucks, bring our rifles, and head East.

If Madoff couldn't piss off one person in America enough to cause his own assassination, no grandiose idea of change will cause anyone to revolt beyond podiums such as this one.

Pretty darned grizzly scenarios. Fortunately, it doesn't always require a violent response to effect great social change. We did it in the New Deal when runaway greed took down the economy. Unfortunately, the Right Wing has been gradually rolling back the New Deal ever since and that's why we're in the mess we're in.

In the Soviet Union and several Warsaw Pact countries violence was tried from time to time without success. When change did come it was through non-violence.

John

Kamakiri
12-17-2009, 10:11 AM
Pretty darned grizzly scenarios. Fortunately, it doesn't always require a violent response to effect great social change. We did it in the New Deal when runaway greed took down the economy. Unfortunately, the Right Wing has been gradually rolling back the New Deal ever since and that's why we're in the mess we're in.

Spoken like a true Democrat :rolleyes:

First, the United States is NOT a democracy, it is a Republic.

Second, the New Deal did NOT spend us into prosperity. Read up:

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3357

It was WWII that pulled us out of the depression, not FDR.

There is so much deflation in our economy now, just like then, that there really isn't much room for too much more deflation so the only other way for assets to go is inflation. Interest rates are at an all time low and can't go further down. At some point in the future, rates will go up and money will be worth a lot less. Add to that the amount of money supply added to the Obama "float" and you have liquidation of currency on a massive scale.

Inflation is the ONLY way this country will be able to pay back the HUGE sums of money it owes.

Loans? Borrow 100k now and buy 100k in assets that appreciate, pay the 100k back later will be = to ~50k in real cash. The reversal of that is 100k in the bank will buy 50K worth of assets in the future. So, at least the housing market will improve.

Underwater on your house now? Inflation will take care of that, but the real kicker is in order for that to work rates will have to stay low. If someone can only afford a 1k a month house payment and rates go up then housing prices must decrease or income levels need to increase to make a payment greater than 1k. Nothing really changes except the money supply. When the money supply increases prices decrease as long as interest rates stay low or vise versa. Where do you go lower than 0%? The banks will have to make their money from the financially disavantaged BECAUSE of this mess in the first place, in the form of exorbitant interest rates and fees. The banks make at least half of their money there now.

If the government passes too much reform on that, watch thousands of banks fold up in 2010, which the FDIC can't afford as they're taxed to the limits now. So what do we do? Print more money, and eventually the US dollar ends up being produced by Scott and comes 1000 sheets per roll.

OR

There will be a huge war or civil unrest that will solve many problems.

noonereal
12-17-2009, 10:25 AM
Might as well fly a hot air balloon to Mars or drink the Atlantic Ocean dry with a straw.

The only way something like that's going to happen is a major surge of nationalism that would be caused by an extreme act of terrorism caused by the government. Back on 9/11, a bunch of us here at work said that if there were ground forces coming to NYC from some enemy, we'd all load up militia style in the backs of pickup trucks, bring our rifles, and head East.

If Madoff couldn't piss off one person in America enough to cause his own assassination, no grandiose idea of change will cause anyone to revolt beyond podiums such as this one.

:(

Yes you are correct. Folks don't revolt in earnest unless they are hungry or their lives are threatened.

Boreas
12-17-2009, 11:07 AM
Spoken like a true Democrat :rolleyes:

And?

First, the United States is NOT a democracy, it is a Republic.

Yes, a democratic republic. What's your point?

Second, the New Deal did NOT spend us into prosperity. Read up:

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3357

It was WWII that pulled us out of the depression, not FDR.

I'm familiar with the argument. I'm also familiar with the Cato Institute. I don't have a lot of use for libertarian or Randian objectivist thinking.

The truth is both the New Deal and WWII pulled us out of the Great Depression. We were pretty well on our way to recovery, thanks to the New Deal. The war economy did help some because it increased our industrial capacity but making bombs and tanks doesn't really do much for consumer spending.

Of course, none of this has the slightest thing to do with my original response to your post.

There is so much deflation in our economy now, just like then, that there really isn't much room for too much more deflation so the only other way for assets to go is inflation. Interest rates are at an all time low and can't go further down. At some point in the future, rates will go up and money will be worth a lot less. Add to that the amount of money supply added to the Obama "float" and you have liquidation of currency on a massive scale.

I could be mistaken, but I think we're still in a period of low inflation, not deflation. As for interest rates, bank-to-bank rates are at historic lows but not consumer rates. In any case, the banks aren't lending so the rates are irrelevant.

Inflation is the ONLY way this country will be able to pay back the HUGE sums of money it owes.

Only if the dollar stays as the official reserve currency and that may well change. That would make it harder to repay the debt, a little like Germany in the '20s.

Loans? Borrow 100k now and buy 100k in assets that appreciate, pay the 100k back later will be = to ~50k in real cash. The reversal of that is 100k in the bank will buy 50K worth of assets in the future. So, at least the housing market will improve.

If someone will lend it to you. Right now housing prices, those that are actually selling, are depressed.

If the government passes too much reform on that, watch thousands of banks fold up in 2010, which the FDIC can't afford as they're taxed to the limits now. So what do we do? Print more money, and eventually the US dollar ends up being produced by Scott and comes 1000 sheets per roll.

There's no such thing as too much reform. :)

Of course, too much regulation could hurt the banking industry but you need to remember that it was regulation which saved the banking industry in the wake of the Depression and deregulation, combined with lax oversight, that caused the current crisis.

But, again, none of this has anything to do with my earlier post.

OR

There will be a huge war or civil unrest that will solve many problems.

You keep bringing that up. It would seem to be your preferred solution.

John

merrylander
12-17-2009, 01:00 PM
Now if we can only shut down the Senate and do away with them entirely.:rolleyes:

Grumpy
12-17-2009, 03:19 PM
There's no such thing as too much reform. :)



John

I think Hitler said that very thing. No I am not comparing Obama to him. I am comparing our hypocritical political parties.

There will never be true reform in this country because it would mean outing every single politician from the top to the bottom. They are all as whack as a three dollar bill.

Boreas
12-17-2009, 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by Boreas
There's no such thing as too much reform. :)

I think Hitler said that very thing.

Not to me. ;)

There will never be true reform in this country because it would mean outing every single politician from the top to the bottom. They are all as whack as a three dollar bill.

Reform is more than possible under our system of government. We've actually had several periods of true reform in this country, during the Progressive Era, the New Deal and the Great Society.

The problem is precisely what FDR warned us about when he spoke of the "economic royalists" who had driven our economy to the brink as well as what Ike referred to as the military/industrial complex. (Actually, they're one and the same.) If we can get their money out of politics we'll be well on the way to reform. The place to start is in campaign finance reform.

John

merrylander
12-18-2009, 07:13 AM
There will never be reform until the Supremes learn how to understand plain English. Then they will finally make bribery illegal and all the lobbyist can go home. The Constitution does not support lobbying, never did, never will.

General Electric is not a citizen any more than Abu Dhabi is, and 'redress' is by definition post facto, neither you nor I can appeal to the government for 'redress' until they have actually done something. We don't get to sit in the backrooms of Congress and write the legislation like the K Street thieves do.

Kamakiri
12-18-2009, 10:35 AM
Of course, none of this has the slightest thing to do with my original response to your post.

So? I expanded the discussion in the direction that I wanted to take it in. My right as an American (and an admin :D )

Referring to war:

You keep bringing that up. It would seem to be your preferred solution.

John

I don't like war. People die. Believe it or not, republicans like to die about as much as democrats do. I presented that as a possible scenario. Do I think that things will get so bad that we will all turn to civil unrest, or that we'll go to war to get our economy going? No. Is it possible? Anything is.

noonereal
12-18-2009, 11:51 AM
Believe it or not, republicans like to die about as much as democrats do. .

I would say that is a little true and a little false.

Republicans seem to have no trouble with kids dieing in war as long it is not "their" kids. Dem's seem to prefer no one dies in war.

BlueStreak
12-18-2009, 12:09 PM
I would say that is a little true and a little false.

Republicans seem to have no trouble with kids dieing in war as long it is not "their" kids. Dem's seem to prefer no one dies in war.

Rant on.

Very true. When I think of all of the vets I've known, including myself, my father and my two oldest brothers, only a handfull call themselves "Conservative Republicans". The ones who like to talk about their "conservative values" the most, seem to be the one who contribute the least. It's easy to talk about how hard everyone else should be working, and how overpaid other "American" workers are, when you don't count yourself among them. Just a bunch of lazy, asskissing flunkies from my point of view. Kind of like their "God"--Rush Limbaugh--the fat fuck who gets $50,000,000/year to sit on his lazy ass and bitch about everyone else being overpaid and underworked. I wish that prick would have a massive heart attack and relieve us of his presence. OH HAPPY DAY!:D

Rant over.

Dave

Kamakiri
12-18-2009, 01:02 PM
Kind of like their "God"--Rush Limbaugh--the fat fuck who gets $50,000,000/year to sit on his lazy ass and bitch about everyone else being overpaid and underworked.

When it comes down to brass tacks, the only difference between Rush and us here on PC is the money and the minutiae. Some dem, some rep, but either way, it's just good solid entertainment and little else. We pay pro athletes for good entertainment, why not pay Rush too? Whether you agree with him or disagree, even with his stature he has little power to affect any change in any direction.

piece-itpete
12-18-2009, 01:25 PM
Well said Tim!

As far as rep or dem soldiers, how does the military tend to vote? And it wasn't reps high tailling it to Canada :D

Pete

Boreas
12-18-2009, 01:25 PM
When it comes down to brass tacks, the only difference between Rush and us here on PC is the money and the minutiae. Some dem, some rep, but either way, it's just good solid entertainment and little else. We pay pro athletes for good entertainment, why not pay Rush too? Whether you agree with him or disagree, even with his stature he has little power to affect any change in any direction.

Rush Limbaugh is a hate monger. He "entertains" people by telling them that all their problems are the fault of people who disagree with them. He has the power to shape opinion among his millions of listeners to his own twisted, drug-addled perspective and then use them to exert influence over elected officials.

Interestingly, those pro athletes you compare him to don't want anything to do with him.

John

Boreas
12-18-2009, 01:32 PM
Well said Tim!

As far as rep or dem soldiers, how does the military tend to vote? And it wasn't reps high tailling it to Canada :D

Pete

Anecdotally, it would seem that the military isn't as reliable a source of Republican votes as it was once seen to be. In the last two elections there have been significant efforts by Republican operatives to reduce the number of military absentee ballots through the practice of "caging". That would suggest that disaffection with the wars and with the way GIs have been treated under the Bush Administration has caused a leftward shift in our military.

John

merrylander
12-19-2009, 07:55 AM
Well said Tim!

As far as rep or dem soldiers, how does the military tend to vote? And it wasn't reps high tailling it to Canada :D

Pete

They were neither party, just guys of draft age who did not have fathers in high places and who did not want to go to Vietnam, I knew more than a few of them.

merrylander
12-19-2009, 07:59 AM
Well said Tim!

As far as rep or dem soldiers, how does the military tend to vote? And it wasn't reps high tailling it to Canada :D

Pete

Actually most of them were apolitical, they just did not have fathers in high places and were adverse to dying in Vietnam. I was still living there back then and knew more than a few of them.

noonereal
12-19-2009, 10:32 AM
When it comes down to brass tacks, the only difference between Rush and us here on PC is the money and the minutiae. Some dem, some rep, but either way, it's just good solid entertainment and little else. We pay pro athletes for good entertainment, why not pay Rush too? Whether you agree with him or disagree, even with his stature he has little power to affect any change in any direction.

I cannot agree. Anyone with access to others has an affect.
People believe his buffoonery.

BlueStreak
12-19-2009, 11:59 AM
When it comes down to brass tacks, the only difference between Rush and us here on PC is the money and the minutiae. Some dem, some rep, but either way, it's just good solid entertainment and little else. We pay pro athletes for good entertainment, why not pay Rush too? Whether you agree with him or disagree, even with his stature he has little power to affect any change in any direction.


Wrong.

Sports is entertainment.

What Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck, and others in the media play off as entertainment is not. Not anymore. Not when they start advocating "single party rule" as they were doing just a few years ago, (A case of "Careful what you ask for." I'd say.), and alluding to revolution as I have observed. At that point I don't see any of it as "entertainment", it's politics and it does affect our daily lives in a profound way.

Now, I believe in free speech, even for these guys. But to pass off what they do as "entertainment" is a canard. They are very definately trying to guide public policy and discourse. That's not entertainment, it's politics, and I take it seriously. More people should.

And, before you say it; Yes, the Left pulls the same trick.

Dave

BlueStreak
12-19-2009, 12:09 PM
Well said Tim!

As far as rep or dem soldiers, how does the military tend to vote? And it wasn't reps high tailling it to Canada :D

Pete


They didn't have to run. They had powerful, wealthy fathers to run block for them a la Cheney and Bush.

Dave

Kamakiri
12-21-2009, 10:21 AM
Wrong.

Sports is entertainment.

What Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck, and others in the media play off as entertainment is not. Not anymore. Not when they start advocating "single party rule" as they were doing just a few years ago, (A case of "Careful what you ask for." I'd say.), and alluding to revolution as I have observed. At that point I don't see any of it as "entertainment", it's politics and it does affect our daily lives in a profound way.

Now, I believe in free speech, even for these guys. But to pass off what they do as "entertainment" is a canard. They are very definately trying to guide public policy and discourse. That's not entertainment, it's politics, and I take it seriously. More people should.

And, before you say it; Yes, the Left pulls the same trick.

Dave

Name me one piece of political reform that has been successfully enacted because any media blowhard, left or right, brought to the pulpit.

Boreas
12-21-2009, 11:11 AM
Name me one piece of political reform that has been successfully enacted because any media blowhard, left or right, brought to the pulpit.

If you want examples of the influence that can have just look at Glen Beck's 9/12 Project or Rick Santelli's roll in launching the Tea Party Protests.

John

piece-itpete
12-21-2009, 11:42 AM
They didn't have to run. They had powerful, wealthy fathers to run block for them a la Cheney and Bush.

Dave

"I could have gone to Canada
Or I could have stayed in school
But I was brought up differently
I couldn't break the rules"

Pete

noonereal
12-21-2009, 12:27 PM
Name me one piece of political reform that has been successfully enacted because any media blowhard, left or right, brought to the pulpit.

you are kidding right?

Fox is not the right wing political propaganda machine?

Kamakiri
12-21-2009, 12:55 PM
:(

Yes you are correct. Folks don't revolt in earnest unless they are hungry or their lives are threatened.

Noonereal, you and I agree 100% on this one, and this is why nobody with a microphone has any affect. We're all so desensitized to scandal, corruption, and self-aggrandizement, that we tend to filter out the media to the point where no political discussions on any radio station or TV network make any more difference than the NFL on Sunday.

noonereal
12-22-2009, 07:42 AM
Noonereal, you and I agree 100% on this one, and this is why nobody with a microphone has any affect. We're all so desensitized to scandal, corruption, and self-aggrandizement, that we tend to filter out the media to the point where no political discussions on any radio station or TV network make any more difference than the NFL on Sunday.

I know we are splitting hairs here but Fox IMHO has a powerful effect at keeping this system they way it is by overtly distorting issues so dramatically that the folks raped keep arguing among each other instead of taking to the voting booth in unison.

merrylander
12-22-2009, 08:55 AM
I don't know, I overheard McConnell saying "The people are revolting" and Ted Demented said "They sure are".:rolleyes:

Kamakiri
12-22-2009, 01:03 PM
I know we are splitting hairs here but Fox IMHO has a powerful effect at keeping this system they way it is by overtly distorting issues so dramatically that the folks raped keep arguing among each other instead of taking to the voting booth in unison.

Even though you and I are from what I know on opposite sides of the aisle on a lot of things, I think that you and I can both laugh together at one thing.....that for all the millions of dollars and millions of listeners any of these newsy mouthpieces have, they're completely impotent when it comes to creating and passing legislation, because they don't have the stones to run for, and win, political office....where they'd actually have a shot at doing something.

Instead, they'd rather use major media and money to shortcut the due process of the political machine. Sorry Johnny, you brought your ladder, but you still can't reach the apples....

merrylander
12-22-2009, 02:29 PM
People were speculating in the other group about the recent spate of police officers being murdered, I wonder how much of that hate can be laid to Limbaugh, Beck and Hannity's doors?

piece-itpete
12-22-2009, 02:50 PM
People were speculating in the other group about the recent spate of police officers being murdered, I wonder how much of that hate can be laid to Limbaugh, Beck and Hannity's doors?

Are they being killed in the country, or city? There's no Reps in the city...

Pete

merrylander
12-22-2009, 04:04 PM
You mean to tell me there are cities that are totally devoid of Republicans. Lordy if that is the case you could almost persuade this country boy to become a city slicker.

Charles
12-22-2009, 07:16 PM
People were speculating in the other group about the recent spate of police officers being murdered, I wonder how much of that hate can be laid to Limbaugh, Beck and Hannity's doors?

I don't think that you can lay murdered police officers at their feet. The people who target police officers are mentally unbalanced...the one's who just shoot them are by and large career criminals.

We have more people, more criminals, and more cops. More cops are going to get shot. I wonder how the percentage of shootings relate to the percentage of the total population.

Chas

Boreas
12-22-2009, 08:06 PM
You mean to tell me there are cities that are totally devoid of Republicans. Lordy if that is the case you could almost persuade this country boy to become a city slicker.

Soylent Green is........ REPUBLICANS!!!!

John

Boreas
12-22-2009, 08:12 PM
People were speculating in the other group about the recent spate of police officers being murdered, I wonder how much of that hate can be laid to Limbaugh, Beck and Hannity's doors?

I don't think they had much to do with it. That came mostly from the militantly extreme far right, NRA, Aryan Nations, Militia web sites and talkers. They've got a lot of people convinced it's only a matter of time before Obama takes their guns away. That's what the guy in Pittsburgh who killed three cops believed.

That being said, I don't think Beck, Hannity or O'Reilly would be in any hurry to disabuse their listeners of that fear.

John

piece-itpete
12-23-2009, 07:35 AM
You mean to tell me there are cities that are totally devoid of Republicans. Lordy if that is the case you could almost persuade this country boy to become a city slicker.

Come on down Rob! Got a decrepit old house on a 25 x 40 lot with no driveway a'waitin'! :)

Yours for only $8,000. Crackheads and gangbangers are thrown in free!

There may be a FEW, but not many, at least in rust belt cities. There are entire wards in Cleveland were McCain did not receive a single vote.

The GOP is a joke in these places because they have no members. The only reason Voinovich won as mayor is because Kucinich was so bad.

Someone should do a poll in the prisons, it would be an eye opener.

Pete

piece-itpete
12-23-2009, 07:40 AM
Soylent Green is........ REPUBLICANS!!!!

Lmao!! I'm using this if you don't mind :D

Pete

merrylander
12-23-2009, 11:47 AM
Republicans are OK I guess, but you would not want your sister to marry one.:D

Boreas
12-23-2009, 12:10 PM
Lmao!! I'm using this if you don't mind :D

Pete

Be my guest! ;)

John

piece-itpete
12-23-2009, 12:40 PM
This thread is getting waaaaay too nice. Shouldn't be someone talking about Chavez loving lefties or teabagging righties? :D

Pete

merrylander
12-23-2009, 01:41 PM
Chavez? Isn't she a Republican?

Kamakiri
12-28-2009, 10:17 AM
This thread is getting waaaaay too nice. Shouldn't be someone talking about Chavez loving lefties or teabagging righties? :D

Pete

The whole reason is that while we differ in our opinions, we all agree that they count for nothing :eek:

Boreas
12-28-2009, 10:40 AM
The whole reason is that while we differ in our opinions, we all agree that they count for nothing :eek:

Maybe yours do but mine don't. ;)

John

piece-itpete
12-28-2009, 10:50 AM
Lmao!!

Pete

Boreas
12-28-2009, 10:52 AM
Lmao!!

Pete

Fixed it.:confused:

John

Kamakiri
12-29-2009, 07:27 AM
Maybe yours do but mine don't. ;)

John

I hadn't realized that your last name was McCain. It was a valiant try, sir.

Boreas
12-29-2009, 08:46 AM
I hadn't realized that your last name was McCain. It was a valiant try, sir.

I wish I knew what you meant here. I'm sure I'd enjoy the joke.

John