Hippies and libertarians have become unlikely allies in a war against solar power

[djv8ga]

Cool & correct piece about solar power. - http://qz.com/119215/hippies-and-libertarians-have-become-unlikely-allies-in-a-war-against-solar-power/

[d-ray657]

Interesting article. I heard on the radio the other day that individual producers of solar energy are the next target of an ALEC legislative crusade.

Regards,

D-Ray

[djv8ga]

Interesting article. I heard on the radio the other day that individual producers of solar energy are the next target of an ALEC legislative crusade.

Regards,

D-Ray
You bet. I wonder why the Dems in DC have nothing to say about this? Just kidding, I know why.

[d-ray657]

To be honest with ya, the more corporate ownership of Congress I see, the more appeal some libertarian ideas have. But . . . there has to be some way to check corporate power and I don't see them behaving if we get government out of the picture altogether. One possible way - and the most appealing Idea I ever heard from Ron Paul - is for stringent enforcement of anti-trust laws.

Regards,

D-Ray

[djv8ga]

To be honest with ya, the more corporate ownership of Congress I see, the more appeal some libertarian ideas have. But . . . there has to be some way to check corporate power and I don't see them behaving if we get government out of the picture altogether. One possible way - and the most appealing Idea I ever heard from Ron Paul - is for stringent enforcement of anti-trust laws.

Regards,

D-Ray
I agree.
On this subject, I thought I heard on the radio last night that the NFL is still legally a non-profit and Senator Tom Coburn was going after them...?
Have you heard about this? Are they really a non-profit?

[donquixote99]

Bad headline--they should have said 'allies in war to save solar power."

But interesting article, for sure. I'd heard some murmurs about this before. Needs to be on the radar.

[djv8ga]

Bad headline--they should have said 'allies in war

No kidding. I had to read it twice to make sure I was getting the point.:o

[Charles]

I can see a couple of positives from this.

First, alternative energy is finally becoming affordable, therefore viable.

Second, people, or at least some, are beginning to realize that our current bought and paid for two party system is doing a poor job of addressing their needs.

Chas

[Charles]

I agree.
On this subject, I thought I heard on the radio last night that the NFL is still legally a non-profit and Senator Tom Coburn was going after them...?
Have you heard about this? Are they really a non-profit?

Well, it is a religion for many in America.

Chas

[MikeG22]

Interesting article. I was wondering how the energy companies would survive without any customers if we all switched to solar.

I notice the abundance of advertising now for solar leasing programs. Sounds great, clean renewable energy, I'd love to do it, but what happens to the thousands of ConEd workers and such?

[Dondilion]

Interesting article. I was wondering how the energy companies would survive without any customers if we all switched to solar.

I notice the abundance of advertising now for solar leasing programs. Sounds great, clean renewable energy, I'd love to do it, but what happens to the thousands of ConEd workers and such?

Clean air is of more importance than jobs for thousands of ConEd workers.

[MikeG22]

Clean air is of more importance than jobs for thousands of ConEd workers.

But you cannot have your cake and eat it too. You need the power grid to remain running. Unless your completely off the grid which is a very small percentage of solar setups you need to pull energy from the grid at night and overcast days. You then push energy back in on sunny days.

No workers, no grid. Better get some candles.

[Dondilion]

But you cannot have your cake and eat it too. You need the power grid to remain running. Unless your completely off the grid which is a very small percentage of solar setups you need to pull energy from the grid at night and overcast days. You then push energy back in on sunny days.

No workers, no grid. Better get some candles.

Agreed but your argument of projecting workers in front of a healthy
environment is in the long run not sustainable. As science and
technology advance certain jobs vanish.

Workers in whatever industry will be smart to observe what's coming
and make adjustment.

No job is guaranteed.

[Rajoo]

Utilities will down size as technology and demand changes. Jobs will be created in the solar energy industry to replace jobs lost in the utilities sector. Solar power availability is free so it becomes very difficult to stop this movement.

Utilities are already looking into energy storage technology. If this becomes viable small scale producers will not be dependent on energy companies and now the battery manufacturers will create new jobs.

But of course as always, there will be political drama and lobbyists fighting hard for the energy and utility companies. We already have the technology to make every new home energy self sufficient. Not solar panels but solar roofs that are already being installed in upscale new homes in our area. Very difficult to stop this movement in the US. Cost of panels was a major detriment but now thanks to our good friend China, panels are now Walmart priced.

[Wasillaguy]

I read a story recently that insurance companies are raising rates or refusing to cover fire for structures with rooftop solar. The firemen can't open up the roof as is often needed, not to mention they can't easily move around on the roof, and have to worry about live power they can't easily shut off (many modern installs have micro-inverters on each panel, so you're dealing with A/C, not dc)

[MikeG22]

Agreed but your argument of projecting workers in front of a healthy
environment is in the long run not sustainable. As science and
technology advance certain jobs vanish.

Workers in whatever industry will be smart to observe what's coming
and make adjustment.

No job is guaranteed.

Correction : ConEd is a bad example because they both produce and deliver. Many suburban utility companies however are solely based on delivery not production.

Its not a matter of a job being guaranteed or not. You still need grid power at night. When a storm happens and poles go down who is going to fix them. You still need the workers despite your fancy green system.

The panels are not being advertised as "green" as much as F the money hungry power company. There needs to be a symbiotic sort of relationship between the energy deliverers and the solar producing consumer. Companies like ConEd do not make energy, they are not a supplier, they are an energy delivery company. Whether the power comes from your house or a coal burning plant they do not care as long as they can bill you for delivering the energy. But someone needs to pay for the grid, and your meter spinning backwards all day isn't going to do it.

The problem is solar energy is currently like stealing cable because your utilizing the services of an energy delivery company without paying for it.

[MikeG22]

http://grist.org/climate-energy/solar-panels-could-destroy-u-s-utilities-according-to-u-s-utilities/

Trust me I'd like to give the middle finger to my local utility company as well and keep my air cleaner by not burning coal or catalyzing plutonium. But I also don't want to be in the dark at night because I bite off my nose to spite my face.

[merrylander]

What burns my arse is that the PUC lets BG&E charge by the kilowatt for delivery, why"?

[piece-itpete]

They have to maintain the special tankers that deliver it.

Pete

[donquixote99]

The problem is solar energy is currently like stealing cable because your utilizing the services of an energy delivery company without paying for it.

The necessity of grid power at night is expected to go away, remember, as storage technology marches on. Must everyone nonetheless contribute to maintaining the grid forever and ever?

If you call persons who take offered subsidies and rates 'freeloaders,' what bad name do you call companies that want to force you to pay for their operations whether you use them or not?

[MikeG22]

If you call persons who take offered subsidies and rates 'freeloaders,' what bad name do you call companies that want to force you to pay for their operations whether you use them or not?

Your missing the point, you are using it just not during the day. So yes, at night, you are freeloading.

[MikeG22]

They have to maintain the special capacitors that deliver it.

Pete

Fixed that for ya ;)

[bobabode]

There certainly a middle way of solving our problems in this regard. The details will have be worked out. Fracking for natural gas has only delayed the urgency of kicking the fossil fuel addiction.

There are a few pilot plants out west who are utilizing molten salt to store the heat needed to run turbines after dark.

Peace, Bob

[Dondilion]

There certainly a middle way of solving our problems in this regard. The details will have be worked out. Fracking for natural gas has only delayed the urgency of kicking the fossil fuel addiction.

There are a few pilot plants out west who are utilizing molten salt to store the heat needed to run turbines after dark.

Peace, Bob

Those who are about to fight for the North Pole and the China Seas do
not believe that the fossil is going away anytime soon. :D

As to fracking: God bless our NY Governor. He is holding out against
powerful forces.

No one has a clue what the F these companies are injecting in the
ground.

[donquixote99]

Your missing the point, you are using it just not during the day. So yes, at night, you are freeloading.

I'm fine with people paying who use the grid.

But you missed my point. What about in the near future, when storage technology allows people to store their own energy, and cover the nighttime usage? Are you arguing for these proposals that fine people for disconnecting from the grid altogether?

[Rajoo]

If the utility company can buy the excess power generated at a discounted rate, that would subsidize the grid and it's maintenance. Right now it's an even swap at least here in CA.

[MikeG22]

I'm fine with people paying who use the grid.

But you missed my point. What about in the near future, when storage technology allows people to store their own energy, and cover the nighttime usage? Are you arguing for these proposals that fine people for disconnecting from the grid altogether?

There are very few areas of the US that you can run an off grid system. Maybe in the distant future storage of energy will get better but as of now the only way you can is with backup power generation which take a guess what that runs on. Two days overcast and the generator is running.

If people want to disconnect knock themselves out, seems no different then my well for water. I don't get fined for not buying water from a public water system. However, if I lived in an area of town that had municipal water I would be fined for drilling a well due to municipal laws. So why should it be any different for electricity?

I'm curious what happens when I throw solar panels on my house and buy an electric car. Now I don't pay a utility bill or the tax on the fuel for my car.

[merrylander]

One simple question, why does electricity here cost double what I used to pay in Canada?

[donquixote99]

Wellm not so much much hydropower is made in Maryland, AFAIK. And do you have a big export market for power in Maryland to fund your infrastructure?

[merrylander]

Wellm not so much much hydropower is made in Maryland, AFAIK. And do you have a big export market for power in Maryland to fund your infrastructure?

Hydro is passe in Ontario, it is now mainly CANDU reactors on the Bruce peninsula. Quebec did complete a big hydro installation on the James bay before I left 30 years ago. The biggest difference is that power generation there is provincially owned, hence no shareholders and the need for profits.

Meanwhile back here in Baghdad on the Potomac. . . .:rolleyes: The last CEO of the electric company was an investment banker, not an engineer, and he was not even a good investment banker as he lost a ton of profits.

[piece-itpete]

A number of years ago an old mine in northern Ohio was converted into a compressed air 'tank', run the compressor during off peak hours and use the air to run generators during peak, I can't find anything on it, I'd love to know how it turned out.

Pete

[MikeG22]

Oh if only Tesla was still around, or Edison for the text book believers :D

[donquixote99]

There are very few areas of the US that you can run an off grid system.

Can you expand on why you say this? I'm sure high sunlight availability and low heating/cooling demand are ideal, but is it fair to say you 'can't' be off-grid elsewhere? Just takes more auxiliary generation or heating-fuel use, I would think. There mey be a 'don't want to' based on cost and stuff, but there isn't a 'can't.'

[MikeG22]

In most of the US the only way you can truly go off grid is to have a backup generator for the times your stored energy runs low. Few days of overcast or running AC in the summer and your burning fuels because you've exceeded your supply.

Creating your own energy using home generators is extremely inefficient. It's the same argument that electric cars make sense despite their use of energy. Power plants are 3-4 times more efficient at creating a kW from the same amount of fuel and create less pollution.

[Wasillaguy]

In most of the US the only way you can truly go off grid is to have a backup generator for the times your stored energy runs low. Few days of overcast or running AC in the summer and your burning fuels because you've exceeded your supply.

Creating your own energy using home generators is extremely inefficient. It's the same argument that electric cars make sense despite their use of energy. Power plants are 3-4 times more efficient at creating a kW from the same amount of fuel and create less pollution.

Not to mention laws and regulations in many urban/suburban areas make if very difficult if not impossible to run a generator, or a wind turbine.
Same goes for digging your own well. In most places where municipal water is available, digging your own well is near impossible to do legally.
Once again, the big money has you hog tied via the wonderful government.

SOFC technology is coming along rapidly, and I have hope it will some day kill the electrical grid entirely.

[piece-itpete]

Saw a doc on Netflix (can't remember the name!) about solar in a small upstate NY town, they fought it and won. A very hippy-ish group was behind stopping it. Apparently they are very noisy among other issues, and they explode bats.

Pete

[MikeG22]

Apparently they are very noisy among other issues, and they explode bats.

Awesome!

[merrylander]

In most of the US the only way you can truly go off grid is to have a backup generator for the times your stored energy runs low. Few days of overcast or running AC in the summer and your burning fuels because you've exceeded your supply.

Creating your own energy using home generators is extremely inefficient. It's the same argument that electric cars make sense despite their use of energy. Power plants are 3-4 times more efficient at creating a kW from the same amount of fuel and create less pollution.

We have an emergency generator for the times when the local flicker and flash goes out.:)

[Dondilion]

Mikeg22, I certainly appreciate your knowledgeable input.

Did not know that about solar re noise and bats.

[piece-itpete]

D'oh! I'm an idiot. It was about WIND power.

Pete

[Dondilion]

D'oh! I'm an idiot. It was about WIND power.

Pete

Certainly not!

For me wind farms are just ugly.

[MikeG22]

D'oh! I'm an idiot. It was about WIND power.

Pete

Even better!!! I guess they get hacked up by the mills

[MikeG22]

Mikeg22, I certainly appreciate your knowledgeable input.

I'm happy to share what I know. I have to deal with pumping facilities which consume enormous amounts of energy. We are constantly trying to improve efficiency by upgrading / aligning pumps, and contemplate alternative sources. We use soft start VFD mechanisms to start motors, preventing the harsh power spikes on startup.

We have had companies approach us about decking out our stations with solar panels and its exciting to see cleaner solutions are becoming reality. Solar panels are not in infancy anymore but they are far from teenagers. They work in the home energy environment but for industry the consumption is too violent for them. A 100hp motor kicking on using three phase 600v will burn up a solar inverter even using soft start. The future will be a cleaner one.

[Dondilion]

The future will be a cleaner one.

Thats a positive note.

[piece-itpete]

Even better!!! I guess they get hacked up by the mills

From what I understand the pressure differential near the 6 ton blades (which can be going 178 mph at the tip) explodes them.

Pete

[MikeG22]

So wind power inadvertently increases the mosquito population by killing bats. Lol don't let the oil mongers hear that it'll be their trademark.

[piece-itpete]

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=wind-turbines-kill-bats

Pete

[JJIII]

I wonder if any of these designs will work out any better?

https://www.google.com/search?q=vertical+wind+turbine&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=_K-5UrrZC6mgsASxzoCwCw&sqi=2&ved=0CEEQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=631

[MikeG22]

Cool stuff!

[bobabode]

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=wind-turbines-kill-bats

Pete

Screw the bats and those white headed dumpster diving chickenhawks, too.

[djv8ga]

Same goes for digging your own well. In most places where municipal water is available, digging your own well is near impossible to do legally.
Once again, the big money has you hog tied via the wonderful government.

SOFC technology is coming along rapidly, and I have hope it will some day kill the electrical grid entirely.

What really sucks is when you drill a well and the county decides to meter ALL wells regardless if Muni water is available or not. We have been fighting this in Cochise county.

I'm just about finished with my solar powered well. After drilling & casing a 340' x 6" bore hole, buying & mounting 6 Schott Poly-240 panels, sinking a Groundfos AC/DC pump ($$$), and just all the labor, I'm scared to death the benefits are going to be blown to bits by them slapping a meter on the thing.

I plan on using propane for backup. I see lots of guys grabbing the Onan generators out of old RVs as a cheap & quiet solution.

As a side note, I would never install panels on a roof if at all possible.

I've really enjoyed reading the thoughts that all of you have posted. With all of the technology & watt-cost dropping like a rock, solar is fascinating to play with IMO. I hope it all doesn't get derailed by the powers that be.:mad:

[merrylander]

Not only are there no regulations concerning generators here the local flicker and flash even sells them, shows you how much faith they have in their own system.

[Dondilion]

Cochise county



Flashback to my comic literature: Sitting Bull, Geronimo, Lone Ranger and Tonto, Buffalo Bill.

[djv8ga]

Cochise was an amazing man. His writings of fighting the Mexicans & Americans at the same time are gut-wrenching.

[bobabode]

Cochise was an amazing man. His writings of fighting the Mexicans & Americans at the same time are gut-wrenching.

That he was. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochise Interesting read.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Cochise_sculpture_%28Cie%C5%84%29.jpg

[Dondilion]

That he was. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochise Interesting read.



Interesting indeed!

Now I remember "BROKEN ARROW".

[djv8ga]

This hits home with me - http://www.chiricahuaapache.org/Chiricahua_Apache.htm