Japans Cash for clunkers

[Grumpy]

So they finally went and started their own cash for clunkers over there. Bastards excluded our cars from being included in the program. Its what I said about their cars from our program all along.

WTF our "stimulus money went to germany, japan and lord knows where else is beyond me.

[merrylander]

I have been telling y'all about the things they told my wife when she was teaching over ther, figured no one believed me. We need more tarriffs.

[Grumpy]

I been listening. Problem was the american car companies weren't.

[Sandy G]

Say what you will, the Japanese did/do a much better job of protecting their car industry than we do. They "inspect" their cars every year for safety/pollution/running violations, after about 5 years or so, it is cheaper to buy a new car than pay to have an older one brought up to snuff, thereby ensuring a large demand for new cars every year. They have a strict size "proportioning" system for their cars, so that if a car is so long, it can only be so wide, or pay a huge tariff. Another thing they do is to decrease insurance & licensing fees on cars that get better mileage, so that a car that gets 40 MPG only has to pay, say, a third or half as much for insurance & licensing as one that gets 15-20 MPG...and the more efficient cars also have higher speed limits than the gas-guzzlers. Japan also drives on the right, like the Brits do. We complain that American cars are systematically shut out of Japanese markets, & that is partly true, but THEY studied OUR market, & developed cars to fit it, LHD & all, why couldn't Detroit have done the same thing ? Plus, their government has/had a ministry that is specifically designed to help their mfgers deal w/the problems of trade w/other countries-Can you see the antagonistic Washington establishment ever going for something like that ? Too bad, because that's one of the things that helped Japan dismantle our consumer electronics industry-and pretty much wreck our car industry, too. But it takes government, management & labor working together-Something that is like holy water to Dracula in this country...

[BlueStreak]

What you say is true, Sandy.

But, if our government were to create a "Ministry of Auto Industry Affairs" they would be accused of "meddling" and have half of the country screaming "communism". Everything you've described here, that the Japanese Government does, (And it seems to have worked.), would be considered "Big Government" here. This factor, coupled with the fact that our system is so damned corrupt, is why such things don't happen here. Just look at what happened when President Obama named an "Auto Czar". That move alone probably spawned a hundred more "Tea Parties". It's rediculous.

And please don't ask me to explain anything "Detroit" does. I spent over half of my life in the shadow of the automotive industry. My Dad worked at Chrysler for 22 years, and I worked for Federal-Mogul for 12. Trust me, you'll go insane trying to figure those people out. And it's NOT all the UAWs fault. Management is just as stupid, if not worse. It's an industry that doesn't give a flopping shit about it's customers or the country it's based in.

Maybe at one time Detroit did great things, but that was long, long ago.

Dave

[BlueStreak]

I have been telling y'all about the things they told my wife when she was teaching over ther, figured no one believed me. We need more tarriffs.

I've been listening. But, then, I already knew that. The people here, see Japanese dominance in autos as a result of fair cometition. The folks over there see their success as the spoils of having duped the village idiot. The same people who believe in "free and unfettered" trade, are the ones who are getting screwed because the rest of the world firmly believes in "predatory" trade. There will be no future for the U.S. industry until we get just as ruthless, tradewise, as they are.

Dave

[merrylander]

We could have insisted that the Big Three come up with better iron. Hell I recall the first Honda Civic, the one with the trailing link rear end and an engine that red lined at over 9000 RPM. After one Canadian winter they looked like Swiss cheese. The first Camrys were iron dogs as well. You could not keep fenders on a Datsun (Nissan).

Most of the blame belongs in management's lap, the people on the line built what they were given. But government fell flat on its ass with all the free and open market crap. Then we had all the States giving the Japanese companies tax holidays just so they would build plants here, no State government was giving the big Three any tax breaks.

Then came the constant bad mouthing of the Big Three regardless of what they built, like the recent yada yada about building gas guzzlers - that was exactly what the people were buying, they could not give away the compacts. For example, JD Power downed the Hummer because the people that bought them were not happy with the gas mileage - WTF did they expect?

H.L Mencken was right.

[Boreas]

Then we had all the States giving the Japanese companies tax holidays just so they would build plants here, no State government was giving the big Three any tax breaks.

What's worse is what went on during the debate over the loans to American car companies. The senators and congressmen, all Republican by the way, from those states were the ones arguing the loudest to "let free market forces work" and allow the industry to die. Of course, it couldn't have had the slightest thing to do with those foreign car companies who built in their states.

John

[BlueStreak]

What's worse is what went on during the debate over the loans to American car companies. The senators and congressmen, all Republican by the way, from those states were the ones arguing the loudest to "let free market forces work" and allow the industry to die. Of course, it couldn't have had the slightest thing to do with those foreign car companies who built in their states.

John


As an aside, one of the states doing some arguing was Ohio. Ohio has both domestic (GM and Chrysler) and Japanese (Honda and Nissan) plants. I guess they've decided the future lies with the Japanese and couldn't give a rats ass about the part of their economy that's dependent on the domestic end of the industry?

Maybe it's just me, but I don't understand the whole "let the industry die" mentality. We heard it about the auto industry, the banking industry, the economy in general, "Let it fail, let it die, let it hit bottom" seems to be the mantra with so many people. To me that is just so defeatist, fatalistic and "narrow of vision".

Especially when it comes to the general economy. Do these idiots have any idea what they are asking for? Maybe with a specific industry, the impact is only so bad, but the national economy? I guess if you have the mentality that it's only "somebody else" and not yourself that's going to do all of the suffering, -------then you don't care? But, just how in the hell do you build a strong nation with that sort of model-----"So long as I'm okay, I don't give a shit about you. Drop dead, asshole."?

Call me naive, but I don't see how this line of thinking could ever
build a strong nation.:confused:

"United we stand, divided we fall." makes much more sense to me.:)

Dave

[Sandy G]

See, I think this is the problem. The unions, the companies, & the gov't oughta be sitting down, & trying to work thru their problems, instead of playing "Who Shot John ?" w/each other. There's PLENTY of blame to go around-Ain't no "Babes in Toyland" here. You've got a leaky boat w/a blazing fire on the other end-And these jokers wanna argue who's gonna man the bucket...

[merrylander]

Dave what I have been saying for years, we run on the Jack System, as in "Screw you Jack, I've got mine".

I have commented on how our mortgage system was designed by thieves for thieves. Now I know there are many honest people in the business, but the system tempts people to cheat. Suppose I am a mortgage broker, my kid needs college tuition and I have this client who wants to buy an $750,000 home. I know his income won't meet the mortgage after the first year, but I get one point from the $700,000 mortgage and run no risk, so I refer him. The bank knows that it will securitize his mortgage along with others and sell it so they take their two points and sell the bundle. If this is not what Wall Street calls Moral Hazard they bloody well should have.

Sure there is greed in abundance out there but the system only encourages it, to the point where honest folk are thought to be fools.

[piece-itpete]

We could have insisted that the Big Three come up with better iron.

WAAAAY to hard for the big 3 to understand, they were arrogant.

Folks, we start a trade war and this recession will look like a quaint little problem.

Why can the Japs make money building cars here, but we can't? What is different?

Pete

[BlueStreak]

WAAAAY to hard for the big 3 to understand, they were arrogant.

Folks, we start a trade war and this recession will look like a quaint little problem.

Why can the Japs make money building cars here, but we can't? What is different?

Pete


The Japanese plants are largely, but not entirely, non-union.
This is a problem that can, and should be resolved.
I agree, Pete. The playing field needs to be levelled.
The Japanese managers have had it entirely too easy for entirely too long.:D

Dave

Dave

[merrylander]

WAAAAY to hard for the big 3 to understand, they were arrogant.

Folks, we start a trade war and this recession will look like a quaint little problem.

Why can the Japs make money building cars here, but we can't? What is different?

Pete

So we should sit back and be raped?

Because the states where they located gave them big tax breaks and even paid them to locate where they are. They are non-union and pay scab wages. Their home governments subsidise them, part of Japanese trade policy, subsidise their manufacturers until they have eliminated the competition, then watch out.

[piece-itpete]

They pay well Rob, and around here anyway the state gives big money to the 'medium two' ( :) ) to stay put and expand.

It's the crazy bennies. Last contract, one concession was they gave up the day after Easter as a holiday.

I didn't know some folks got that day. I've never even heard of it.

I agree, Japan is no slouch and we should be very careful. I vote for full reciprocity regarding trade.

Pete

[Boreas]

They pay well Rob, and around here anyway the state gives big money to the 'medium two' ( :) ) to stay put and expand.

There are a lot of hidden percs the southern states like Alabama, South Carolina and Kentucky have given the foreign manufacturers for locating in their states, everything from giving them free tax-free land to building the highways that run past it.

It's the crazy bennies. Last contract, one concession was they gave up the day after Easter as a holiday.

Well, they've cut their wages and benefits to the point where they can't getaway with more. All they have left is to nickel and dime the workers around the edges by taking away little things like paid days off.

I didn't know some folks got that day. I've never even heard of it.

And you never will again.

I agree, Japan is no slouch and we should be very careful. I vote for full reciprocity regarding trade.

Pete

If you're talking about tariff and such it's kinda too late for the car companies. How do you put an import tariff on something built here by a foreign company?

John

[piece-itpete]

Gosh we love to argue don't we? :)

There are a lot of hidden percs the southern states like Alabama, South Carolina and Kentucky have given the foreign manufacturers for locating in their states, everything from giving them free tax-free land to building the highways that run past it.

Ohio does the same thing for both foriegn and domestics.

Well, they've cut their wages and benefits to the point where they can't getaway with more. All they have left is to nickel and dime the workers around the edges by taking away little things like paid days off.

Do you have any idea what benefits we're talking about here? T'ain't 5 and 10.

And you never will again.

I'll be happy with another week :)

If you're talking about tariff and such it's kinda too late for the car companies. How do you put an import tariff on something built here by a foreign company?

John

Use the exact same thing they do. Are we allowed to build cars there? Then guess what. Start taking apart every car that comes in from Japan and the big 2 will be booming again toot sweet :)

Pete

[merrylander]

Not only that they are assembled here, many of the parts are imported.

[Boreas]

Gosh we love to argue don't we? :)

Is that what this is? ;)

Ohio does the same thing for both foriegn and domestics.

I don't think that's true. When was the last time Detroit built a plant in Ohio or anywhere else? They've been closing them and/or selling them to foreign manufacturers. Of course, that would also mean no new roads to non-existent new domestic plants.

Do you have any idea what benefits we're talking about here? T'ain't 5 and 10.

So, the UAW hasn't negotiated away any of their wages and benefits lately?

Use the exact same thing they do. Are we allowed to build cars there? Then guess what. Start taking apart every car that comes in from Japan and the big 2 will be booming again toot sweet :)

Pete

Again, they're all building cars here. How do you impose a tariff on them? Do you propose forcing them to shut down their US plants?

John

[merrylander]

Maybe we can get South Carolina to seceed.:rolleyes:

[BlueStreak]

"So we should sit back and be raped?"

That's the plan, Rob.

You see;

It's our Patriotic duty to see that the wealthy are very well taken care of, their every whim and desire catered to and their assholes properly licked clean. American workers compensation should be brought in line with the average Guatemalan, so that the "playing field" will at long last be level.

And we will do this voluntarily, because we're "Great Americans" who realize it's just the natural order of things for the rich to shit on the rest of us.
They should have a totally free hand to decide totally on their own how much of their table scraps each one of us is worth. Without any pesky annoyances to get in the way, like the minimum wages, collective bargaining and all of that nonsense.

How dare us, the bad, evil, naughty and lackadaisical American workers, how dare we expect to have a voice and a way to stand up for ourselves? They never do anything sneaky or underhanded. They can't, because everybody knows the bosses are angelic beings, sent by the Almighty himself to bestow providence upon us! They do it out of love, caring and divine inspiration, Rob. And we should be proud to serve them humbly and, of course, as cheaply as possible.

And Hey, who knows? If you're a really good dog, fetch his slippers, and refrain from soiling his Persian rugs with your bodily excretions, the bastard might even buy you a beer with the money he's made off of your labor..............:D

Dave

[merrylander]

Its really funny Dave, Pete talks about bennies as if American workers get excessive holidays. For the last three or four years before I left Bell I was getting 6 weeks paid vacation each year and was able to bank what I could not use. When I retired I was actually on vacation for two and a half months before my pension kicked in.

Here you are lucky to get two weeks and are expected to tug the forelock and say thankee master. Americans have got to have the worst labour practices of any industrialized nation, and even with such lousy deals the masters still ship the jobs off-shore because they say the workers want too much. Sure, but it is OK to pay the CEO $20,000,000 a year - for what?

One of the things that really impressed me about all the companies I worked for down here was just how effing stupid the inhabitants of Mahogany Row could be. Maybe it is the quarterly reporting thing, but their view of the future barely sees as far as the end of next week.

[piece-itpete]

I wonder why the big 3 are the medium 2.

[BlueStreak]

You're absolutely right, Pete. We Americans at the bottom need to make more sacrifices so the handfull at the top can finally find happiness. As if such a thing is even possible.:confused:

The only thing I see in your chart is that the others are undercompensated.

One little project for ya. Compare the compensation of top execs at GM, Ford, and Chrysler compared to those at the foreign companies. But, I'm sure THAT'S completely justified.:rolleyes:

Dave

[piece-itpete]

I understand, but it's a bit like foreign policy - we can't just do what we want or expect everyone else to do what we think.

If we raise everyone from $26 to $75 an hour we might as well shoot ourselves. I think we should place more emphasis on the trades, teach kids how to make/fix stuff again, maybe our brains will stop leaking out our ears :)

Pete

[Boreas]

I wonder why the big 3 are the medium 2.

That $70.00 per hour myth has been completely debunked.

http://www.uaw.org/auto/11_25_08auto2.cfm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/24/opinion/main4630103.shtml

John

[piece-itpete]

That is the COST OF LABOR, very simple - Cost of workers divided by number of workers.

No debunking, just lack of business understanding. It's the reality that the folks who run those companies have to deal with.

Pete

[merrylander]

That is the COST OF LABOR, very simple - Cost of workers divided by number of workers.

No debunking, just lack of business understanding. It's the reality that the folks who run those companies have to deal with.

Pete


Perhaps you can tell us why the 'cost' for the big three is always compared to the 'hourly rate' for the Japanese? Can you say apples and oranges?:rolleyes:

[piece-itpete]

It's not Rob, look at the chart.

Btw, I forget, I've argued online before and I assume (yeah, I know :) ) that I've said things here too.

That last contract was the UAWs last hurrah. I've got two friends with the UAW, well one now since Chryslers' hit the skids, have many other friends (and family!) that supply the auto industry, and I buy UAW (or our brother CAW ;) ) built cars.

So I guess you could say I'm really arguing about how the big 3 got here. Every day that passes the 2 are in better shape and Toyota et al must know it.

I believe the American worker can take on any other head to head. It's all about productivity. We'll survive :)

Pete

[Boreas]

That is the COST OF LABOR, very simple - Cost of workers divided by number of workers.

No debunking, just lack of business understanding. It's the reality that the folks who run those companies have to deal with.

Pete

Did you read any of the links? The figure comes from compensation and benefits paid to all current wage earners plus pension and medical benefits paid to all retirees and their heirs. Then they divide the total by the number of current wage earners, leaving out the retirees.

There's only a couple of bucks difference between the wages and benefits of Big Three workers and those at the non-union foreign manufacturers. The big difference in the numbers comes from the fact that the foreign companies haven't been operating here very long so they don't have nearly as many retirees on their books.

John

[BlueStreak]

Did you read any of the links? The figure comes from compensation and benefits paid to all current wage earners plus pension and medical benefits paid to all retirees and their heirs. Then they divide the total by the number of current wage earners, leaving out the retirees.

There's only a couple of bucks difference between the wages and benefits of Big Three workers and those at the non-union foreign manufacturers. The big difference in the numbers comes from the fact that the foreign companies haven't been operating here very long so they don't have nearly as many retirees on their books.

John

Makes sense to me.

I recently read an article about USSteel. (It may have come from their corporate website.) You may not be aware, but USS has been rebounding in the last decade or so. The reason given was "the rapidly declining retiree base". It would seem the largest demographic in the "Big Steel" retirement base is the WW2 generation. As these guys die off, the companies retirement obligations decline, freeing up capital for other things. I know, USS has fallen very far from it's heyday. And so have the automakers. But, maybe.............

Dave

[piece-itpete]

It doesn't matter where the costs come from - it's a COST and the company has to pay it. Once again, total cost of labor divided by workers = cost per worker.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no lacky for the wealthy. But I'm not going to slam folks just because they do better than me.

I WANT my owner to drive a Rolls.

Pete

[Boreas]

It doesn't matter where the costs come from - it's a COST and the company has to pay it. Once again, total cost of labor divided by workers = cost per worker.

But that's not what they did. They added the cost of current workers to the cost of the retirees but then they divided by just the number of current workers, making it appear that all the money was going to them.

John

[piece-itpete]

That is the cost of labor.

Pete

[BlueStreak]

It doesn't matter where the costs come from - it's a COST and the company has to pay it. Once again, total cost of labor divided by workers = cost per worker.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no lacky for the wealthy. But I'm not going to slam folks just because they do better than me.

I WANT my owner to drive a Rolls.

Pete

Yes, you do. You just don't slam the folks who do WAAAAAY better than you.

And if you want your boss to drive a Rolls, fine. But, two, three, four Rolls, then a mansion in Ohio, then one in California and one in France, then another in Tahiti, and a private Gulfstream to jet back and forth? Then Pete and his coworkers gets laid off and their jobs get sent to Bolivia so the (former) boss can afford to buy a personal Ski Chalet in Switzerland?

The question isn't whether or not the successful deserve to live well, Pete.
I believe they do.

But,

The question is where do you draw the line? At what point does it get rediculous and destructive? When does it reach the point where folks like us are being forced into hardship so a handfull of people can live like Gods?:rolleyes:

I for one, would like to draw that line now, before it's too late, and future generations have to fight to get it back.

Funny, how so many are only concerned about greed, when it comes to wage earners, but not when it comes to wage payers.

Dave

[Boreas]

That is the cost of labor.

Pete

At one level we are in agreement. It is the cost of labor but to present that $70 per hour figure the way it was in the right wing media, as what the average auto worker actually earns, is blatantly dishonest.

I confess I'm a little disappointed at the way you presented that data too.

John

[piece-itpete]

The only reason I'm talking about the union guys is, they took a temporary thing and tried to make it permanent, and along with pig-headed management killed the golden goose. It was all their faults, not one or the other.

There has always been very rich. They pay a lot of taxes.

Pete

[Boreas]

The question is where do you draw the line? At what point does it get rediculous and destructive? When does it reach the point where folks like us are being forced into hardship so a handfull of people can live like Gods?:rolleyes:

How about now?

John

[BlueStreak]

As I said; "I for one, would like to draw that line now....."

Dave

[BlueStreak]

"There has always been very rich. They pay a lot of taxes.

Pete"

That's funny. Last night our plant "wing-nut" told me, "Raising taxes on the rich makes no sense, 'cuz the rich don't pay taxes anyways." Shortly thereafter he told me, "If you keep raising their taxes they'll all just leave anyways, and mo**er fu**ers like us just end up unemployed."

So, which is it?:confused:

And as an aside, I can't recall ever having told this moron I support raising taxes on anyone anyways.

These people make me nuts.

Dave

[Boreas]

The only reason I'm talking about the union guys is, they took a temporary thing and tried to make it permanent.......

What would that be?

John

[Boreas]

And as an aside, I can't recall ever having told this moron I support raising taxes on anyone anyways.

These people make me nuts.

Dave

Well, ya know, all us libruls is always tryin' ta raise everone's taxes.

John

[piece-itpete]

"There has always been very rich. They pay a lot of taxes.

Pete"

That's funny. Last night our plant "wing-nut" told me, "Raising taxes on the rich makes no sense, 'cuz the rich don't pay taxes anyways." Shortly thereafter he told me, "If you keep raising their taxes they'll all just leave anyways, and mo**er fu**ers like us just end up unemployed."

So, which is it?:confused:

And as an aside, I can't recall ever having told this moron I support raising taxes on anyone anyways.

These people make me nuts.

Dave

I would say PEOPLE make me nuts :)

I don't have time but you should see the amount of taxes the very wealth DO pay. They help make it possible for us to not levy taxes on the poor and often actually give them money back.

And realistically, if one supports increased spending one supports increased taxation, there just ain't no other way.

What would that be?

John

$75 per hour labor costs.

Pete

[BlueStreak]

[QUOTE=piece-itpete;13183]The only reason I'm talking about the union guys is, they took a temporary thing and tried to make it permanent....... /QUOTE]

What would that be?

John


The labor movement, I guess. I've heard this before.

Problem is, nothing stays static. When you let your guard down, the other side will immediately, albeit slowly, begin chipping away at that which has been accrued. In time, a future generation will find itself having to stand and fight all over again. We have the means to prevent this, but we won't. Mainly because so many have been convinced that it "immoral", anti-American" or "unpatriotic" to force the boss to do anything he doesn't want to do. They don't seem to get that it will always be the natural tendency of managers to cut costs. One way or another they will continue to slowly chisel away at us until they encounter resistance. This is their job, it's what they get paid to do. And they will do it regardless of how hard you work or how much boot you lick.

This is the deception, the "Grand Illusion" if you will. That so long as you're a good dog, you will always get a juicy bone. We're getting a bone alright, although it's going in the out door. And the "Good Dog" is just getting told, "You will continue to be a good dog, or I'll starve you into submission."

And if anyone, especially the government or the unions, tries to fuck with their grip on the leash of dependency..........Well, I'm sure you've observed what happens.:eek:

Dave

[BlueStreak]

Speaking of the "Wheels of Capitalism", it's that crazy time again. I must trudge off to the coffee plant for another bizarre episode of "Whose fault is it?"

Dave

[Boreas]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boreas
What would that be?

$75 per hour labor costs.

Pete

Could you keep going with this? How was this supposed to be temporary?

[piece-itpete]

It's a looooong story involving ww2, the rest of the developed worlds' manufacturing capacity being destroyed, and ours being goosed among other things :)

I don't blame folks for trying: it is always thus with humans.

Have fun Dave :) When you're talking to the Rush fans always blame Palin and McCain :D

Pete

[Boreas]

It's a looooong story......

I've got time. ;)

John

[merrylander]

The only reason I'm talking about the union guys is, they took a temporary thing and tried to make it permanent, and along with pig-headed management killed the golden goose. It was all their faults, not one or the other.

There has always been very rich. They pay a lot of taxes.

Pete

Bullshit! The very rich have tax lawyers and tax havens and generally pay less than the average worker percentage wise, like hedge fund managers taxed at a 15% rate. The very wealthy would like us all to believe they are the backbone of the nation but what they meant to say is they are living off the backs of the workers.

Funny how everyone gets their knickers in a twist about autoworkers unions and blame them for everything. I have news for you, the union and the workers did not design the cars, they just get to build them.

[piece-itpete]

Heck Rob, I'm not only blaming the workers. It was a gravy train and everyone got a ticket. I also recognise the contributions the unions of old have done to my own life.

Interestingly, the poor paid less taxes under Bush than at least the last two years of Clinton:

http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6

Pete

[merrylander]

I once had an interesting chat with a trade representative from Japan over a couple of beers in the San Francisco airport while waiting for my flight to Vancouver. He was quite frank in admitting to all the tricks and gimmicks they used. Instead of blaming workers finally getting a couple of rungs up the ladder you might blame the business leaders and government who turned a blind eye to what was going on.

[piece-itpete]

I'm not blaming the workers - solely.

But how can you expect to be competitive when a floor sweeper makes $25/hr?

That aside, the union political agenda has brought Cleveland (and other cities) to ruin.

Pete

[piece-itpete]

Btw, if there's any rich guys reading this you should be sending me money.

Lolol.

Pete

[Boreas]

... the union political agenda has brought Cleveland (and other cities) to ruin.

Pete

How?

John

[piece-itpete]

Cleveland was one of the richest cities in the country. When the depression hit, they passed what was called a 'Rockefeller tax' - a tax on the rich.

Guess what happened? Hint: all the incredible mansions on Euclid Ave are long gone.

And the cronyism that goes on in the unions! My beautiful progressive city, turned into a big patronage/mob machine.

Pete

[merrylander]

I'm not blaming the workers - solely.

But how can you expect to be competitive when a floor sweeper makes $25/hr?

That aside, the union political agenda has brought Cleveland (and other cities) to ruin.

Pete


You tarriff any products coming in whose emplyees do not make comparable wages.

BTW I would love to know who got $25 an hour for sweeping floors. Bet I ever got consulting was $100.

[merrylander]

Cleveland beautiful? Last time I was there the area out near Case Western looked like one of the WW II Europen cities after a 1000 bomber raid.

[piece-itpete]

It's something my UAW buddy keeps saying.

Pete

[Boreas]

Cleveland was one of the richest cities in the country. When the depression hit, they passed what was called a 'Rockefeller tax' - a tax on the rich.

Guess what happened? Hint: all the incredible mansions on Euclid Ave are long gone.

And the cronyism that goes on in the unions! My beautiful progressive city, turned into a big patronage/mob machine.

Pete

Pete, you could be talking about a lot of cities. My home town of Baltimore is almost as bad and my birthplace of Detroit is far worse. I don't think it's fair to single out unions, however. There are a thousand other reasons for the plight of our old industrial cities. Most of them fall into two categories. The first is disastrous governmental policies like doing away with import tariffs. The other is corporate greed in neglecting employees and infrastructure by off-shoring everything except their compensation packages.

Oh, and those mansions on Euclid Avenue? They're empty because none of the fat cats would be caught dead living in the city they created. They all live in the 'burbs now.

John

[piece-itpete]

Torn down, they all moved out when the city tried to soak'em.

It seems unions graft cronyism and the mob goes hand in hand.

Pete

[Grumpy]

Pete, you could be talking about a lot of cities. My home town of Baltimore is almost as bad and my birthplace of Detroit is far worse. I don't think it's fair to single out unions, however. There are a thousand other reasons for the plight of our old industrial cities. Most of them fall into two categories. The first is disastrous governmental policies like doing away with import tariffs. The other is corporate greed in neglecting employees and infrastructure by off-shoring everything except their compensation packages.

Oh, and those mansions on Euclid Avenue? They're empty because none of the fat cats would be caught dead living in the city they created. They all live in the 'burbs now.

John

Nothing wrong with the burbs. Least you wont get mugged as much, wait the gooberment took over that job !

[Boreas]

Nothing wrong with the burbs. Least you wont get mugged as much, wait the gooberment took over that job !

LOL! Yeah, they sure did. Grumpy, you made my point. The reason the mansions in the city have either been torn down or turned into tenements, a la Patterson, NJ, is because the suburbs are a more congenial place to live these days.

John

[piece-itpete]

You're talking about NOW. Then, tax the rich, they just left.

And tossing the current batch of rich masters, they'll just be another batch (that probably used the proletariat to take the money from the current bunch).

Pete

[Boreas]

You're talking about NOW. Then, tax the rich, they just left.

And tossing the current batch of rich masters, they'll just be another batch (that probably used the proletariat to take the money from the current bunch).

Pete

Cities are mostly broke. This is largely due to the industrial and mercantile bases leaving. They've been forced to raise residential property tax to make up the shortfall. It's a bad situation.

John

[ehoove]

Cities are mostly broke. This is largely due to the industrial and mercantile bases leaving. They've been forced to raise residential property tax to make up the shortfall. It's a bad situation.

John

It is a sign of an industrial power decaying, with rising costs forcing them to become less competitive. They had to find cheaper ways to operate, in many cases tax free offers set up to entice them to move.
My gripe with the union is that they spent their lobby money on themsevles and not to improve the lot of the average worker who was making 20% what they were. Their demands drove companies to raise prices which inflicted an even high cost of living on the average worker forcing them to turn to cheaper goods. Can you spell Chinese and Japanese? I'm sorry but my attitude towards the unions and their collusion with upper management in our industrial base is one of disgust. To me this was one of the major cancers to our industrial base. The union leaders and company leaders got rich at the expense of us all. The legacy costs of GM are part of their labor costs, and the architects of this disaster are long gone, and enjoyed a wonderful life, I personally hope their after life is a bit less comfortable.
Regards,
Jim

[HatchetJack]

The unions were bad for the country and one of the reasons most of the
big companies sailed. Perfect example of why workers should not be able to
dictate their own pay and retirement plans regardless of performance.

[Boreas]

The unions were bad for the country and one of the reasons most of the
big companies sailed. Perfect example of why workers should not be able to
dictate their own pay and retirement plans regardless of performance.

Jack, they don't dictate their compensation. They negotiate it through collective bargaining with management.

John

[noonereal]

The unions were bad for the country

OMG, that boarders on insane.
(Can I say that?:confused:)


and one of the reasons most of the
big companies sailed.

You want to explain this?


Perfect example of why workers should not be able to
dictate their own pay and retirement plans regardless of performance.

I must have worked in the wrong places. :rolleyes:
Everytime I made a demand I was ignored.

[piece-itpete]

It is a sign of an industrial power decaying, with rising costs forcing them to become less competitive. They had to find cheaper ways to operate, in many cases tax free offers set up to entice them to move.
My gripe with the union is that they spent their lobby money on themsevles and not to improve the lot of the average worker who was making 20% what they were. Their demands drove companies to raise prices which inflicted an even high cost of living on the average worker forcing them to turn to cheaper goods. Can you spell Chinese and Japanese? I'm sorry but my attitude towards the unions and their collusion with upper management in our industrial base is one of disgust. To me this was one of the major cancers to our industrial base. The union leaders and company leaders got rich at the expense of us all. The legacy costs of GM are part of their labor costs, and the architects of this disaster are long gone, and enjoyed a wonderful life, I personally hope their after life is a bit less comfortable.
Regards,
Jim

We are in very close agreement, except I don't mind if their afterlife is OK :)

Pete

[merrylander]

There was a time when the UAW under Reuther did a great many good things, guess the change came about just like many other changes in our societry as we gradually moved to the Jack System.

[Grumpy]

If Ruethers so great then how come its the worse expressway in the greater Detroit area. Wait I think I answered my own question..