Oil............

[BlueStreak]

I think the LAST thing we should ever do is tap our own supply.

Can any of you tell me why I think this way?

I'll give you a little hint;

It has nothing to do with moose habitat, or the f***ing environment.

Dave

[Charles]

Hold it in reserve?

Chas

[BlueStreak]

Bingo.

Use up every last drop of theirs before we start drilling our own.

Dave

[hillbilly]

Bingo.

Use up every last drop of theirs before we start drilling our own.

Dave


How will that help us? The damn government'll just put ours on the world market while we watch the rest of the world suck us dry real quiklike. It won't be reserved for ''just us''.


P.S., could we even begin to imagine the BIG war .. if the USA was the only country with oil left under its feet?

[Boreas]

How will that help us? The damn government'll just put ours on the world market while we watch the rest of the world suck us dry real quiklike. It won't be reserved for ''just us''.

It's not the government that would do that. The government doesn't sell oil. It buys it, with the Pentagon being the largest consumer of petroleum in the world. It's the oil companies that sell it, though I grant you with Bush, Cheney and Rice in the White House it was hard to tell the difference between an oil company and the gummint.

John

[Charles]

The government regulates the oil companies. They tax them when they produce it, then they tax us when we buy it.

Chas

[Boreas]

The government regulates the oil companies. They tax them when they produce it, then they tax us when we buy it.

Chas

The government gives the oil companies a virtual free ride with tax breaks and the "Oil Depletion Allowance", allowing them to drill on public land. The most profitable corporations in the history of the world receiving corporate welfare! It's virtually criminal.

John

[BlueStreak]

"How will that help us? The damn government'll just put ours on the world market while we watch the rest of the world suck us dry real quiklike. It won't be reserved for ''just us''."

No. We won't just give it away. That's rediculous. At that point, it becomes a huge bargaining chip. One we can use to get whatever WE want. And make lots of money while we're at it. It puts us in the "catbird seat", as they say, here in the swamp.

"P.S., could we even begin to imagine the BIG war .. if the USA was the only country with oil left under its feet?"

Yes. I can imagine that. As a matter of fact, that's the whole point. If we are sitting on the oil, our enemies run out before we do, and we win. Ask Hitler, tanks aren't much use without fuel. Neither are naval ships, or heavy bombers.

Or, we could do the short sighted, greedy and stupid thing that the oil brokers and that imbecile from Alaska want to do--------"Drill, Baby, Drill!"
That's it, piss it all away as quickly as possible, virtually assuring future dependency on people who will, no doubt, still hate us a hundred years from now.

Dave

[piece-itpete]

... I grant you with Bush, Cheney and Rice in the White House it was hard to tell the difference between an oil company and the gummint.

John

Obama hasn't CHANGED that? ;)

Pete

[doucanoe]

Obama hasn't CHANGED that? ;)

Pete


Not yet, he's still working on "Total transparency in government" thing.

RC

[BlueStreak]

Nope. We should not drill until every oil field on earth, except ours has been emptied.

But, I'm pretty sure that once the political winds start blowing in a more favorable direction for "Big Oil", the gas prices will hit $4-$5 a gallon again and we'll have Republican politicians yelling, "Drill, Baby, Drill!" again. And Rush and his offspring will twist it around to blame it all on the Left.

Oil profits will soar as the rest of struggle to keep our tanks full, and put food on the table.

But, hey, at least then we might be able to keep the queers from getting married, or the slackers from getting healthcare benefits, and everything will be as it should be......Right?

Dumbasses.

Dave

[Boreas]

Not yet, he's still working on "Total transparency in government" thing.

RC

So, he's having secret meetings in the White House with Big Oil? Giving them tax preaks? Letting them drill in ANWAR?

John

[HatchetJack]

Everyone wanted to blaim Bush and Cheney for being evil people but I think
the real reason we invaded Iraq was to keep the american dollar high. Saddam
threatened to sell his oil for euros only and if all of opec were to follow our
country and currency would collapse. Now Iran has gone to euros only and
has russia and several others behind them. We better watch that situation
closely as we all have a stake in our economy. Might not be that bad to be
in debt to China as they are holding the bag now. They go down with us if
not before. I think obama may just be doing as he is told.

[BlueStreak]

WHAT?

"doing as he is told." By whom?

Dave

[doucanoe]

So, he's having secret meetings in the White House with Big Oil? Giving them tax preaks? Letting them drill in ANWAR?

John



I like the drilling in ANWAR notion. Maybe he has gotten his head out of the Coppenhagen foolishness and is being productive after all.

RC

[piece-itpete]

So, he's having secret meetings in the White House with Big Oil? Giving them tax preaks? Letting them drill in ANWAR?

John

Nah, he saves his secret meetings for the evil pharmaceuticals.

Pete

[Boreas]

I like the drilling in ANWAR notion.

Optimistic estimates are that we could bring ANWR* online in 5 to 10 years. That, according to the USGS, would allow us access to somewhere between 6 and 16 billion barrels of oil and natural gas. Current US consumption of oil is a little over 7 billion barrels of oil per year.

ANWR isn't about ANWR it's about precedent. If the oil giants can get this done it'll be just that much easier for them to rape the next patch of pristine wilderness that strikes their fancy.

Maybe he has gotten his head out of the Coppenhagen foolishness and is being productive after all.

RC

Fortunately, there's no indication that he's reversed himself on that. I think his accomplishments in Copenhagen, small as they were, prove his commitment to finding solutions to a very real problem.

John

*It's ANWR for Arctic National Wildlife Refuge", not "ANWAR" as I previously wrote.

[doucanoe]

Here you go.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs-0028-01/fs-0028-01.htm

http://www.anwr.org/features/akeval.htm

We get our oil from all over. 10 countries if I am not mistaken and Saudi oil is our third or fourth largest supplier. Wind power, battery cars and perpetual motion machines are interesting but will not eliminate our need, or significantly reduce our need for oil. You mention Natural Gas, that may just be the answer.

RC

[Charles]

Well, we have to get the energy to meet our needs from somewhere. And domestic oil production would help the balance of trade. And create jobs.

But I keep forgetting that the American oil companies are evil. So let's keep enriching the likes of Chavez and ARAMCO.

Chas

[Boreas]

Here you go.

http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs-0028-01/fs-0028-01.htm
Yes, that's where I got my figures on estimated reserves.

http://www.anwr.org/features/akeval.htm

Help me out here. What was in that article that I should know? I didn't see anything about estimated reserves in ANWR or any place else.

I did, however, check out ANWR.org. It's an industry front group. I also went to an article on their site titled "How much oil is in ANWR?". Basically, they ducked the question. They say that there could be a whole lot but the only way to find out is to drill for it.

We get our oil from all over. 10 countries if I am not mistaken and Saudi oil is our third or fourth largest supplier. Wind power, battery cars and perpetual motion machines are interesting but will not eliminate our need, or significantly reduce our need for oil. You mention Natural Gas, that may just be the answer.

RC

One of our main suppliers is Venezuela which may, in fact, have greater reserves than any other country in the world. Gives you reason to wonder why we're demonizing Hugo Chavez like we did Saddam Hussein, doesn't it?

By the way, did you know that we sell North Slope crude to foreign countries? China buys a lot of it.

John

[Boreas]

Well, we have to get the energy to meet our needs from somewhere. And domestic oil production would help the balance of trade. And create jobs.

But I keep forgetting that the American oil companies are evil. So let's keep enriching the likes of Chavez and ARAMCO.

Chas

Chas, that's basically why we have to get off oil.

John

[doucanoe]

Yes, that's where I got my figures on estimated reserves.



Help me out here. What was in that article that I should know? I didn't see anything about estimated reserves in ANWR or any place else.

I did, however, check out ANWR.org. It's an industry front group. I also went to an article on their site titled "How much oil is in ANWR?". Basically, they ducked the question. They say that there could be a whole lot but the only way to find out is to drill for it.

Nothing, other than referencing oil reserves off the west coast from California upward.



One of our main suppliers is Venezuela which may, in fact, have greater reserves than any other country in the world. Gives you reason to wonder why we're demonizing Hugo Chavez like we did Saddam Hussein, doesn't it?

Chavez, is an Autocrat who reaps the harvest of his countries riches while the majority of his people live in abject poverty. A wonderful "social" program they have there.

By the way, did you know that we sell North Slope crude to foreign countries? China buys a lot of it.

John


Yes.

RC

[Boreas]

Nothing, other than referencing oil reserves off the west coast from California upward.

I live in California.

Chavez, is an Autocrat who reaps the harvest of his countries riches while the majority of his people live in abject poverty. A wonderful "social" program they have there.

Chavez is a popularly elected borderline autocrat who has used his country's oil wealth to raise the standard of living for the people of his country significantly over what the previous autocrats had imposed.

There are people living in abject poverty in this country too. I'm not holding Chavez up as a model of ideal leadership. I'm only pointing out that we have pretty transparent motives in not only demonizing him but arranging a coup d'etat to remove him.

I find it interesting that the coup failed when the people rose up and demanded his reinstatement and the military rank & file refused to suppress the demonstrators when so ordered. Maybe you don't like Chavez but his people do. Not only did they thwart the US-organized coup but they've re-elected him since then.

Add to that the fact that, after one near miss (49% - 51%), Chavez succeeded in having term limits removed by popular referendum, thus allowing him to run for office again. Of course, the Right Wing/Oil Oligarchs here claimed he was trying to make himself "President for Life", totally ignoring the fact that he still has to be re-elected.

John

[doucanoe]

Of course, the Right Wing/Oil Oligarchs here claimed he was trying to make himself "President for Life", totally ignoring the fact that he still has to be re-elected.

John

Thats going to be quite an election I would imagine :D

RC

[piece-itpete]

...There are people living in abject poverty in this country too. ...

Like Brazil?

Pete

[Boreas]

Thats going to be quite an election I would imagine :D

RC

Why? Do you have inside information that we're going to screw around with it?

The previous election in 2006 was certified by the OAS and the Carter Center. Face it, the Venezuelan people love the guy even if we don't.

John

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by Boreas
...There are people living in abject poverty in this country too. ...

Like Brazil?

Pete

Like most any place you care to mention.

John

[Boreas]

Not yet, he's still working on "Total transparency in government" thing.

RC

You bet your ass he is!

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/30/us/politics/30secrets.html?_r=1

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-classified-national-security-information

John

[doucanoe]

You bet your ass he is!

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/30/us/politics/30secrets.html?_r=1

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/executive-order-classified-national-security-information

John


Isn't Nation Security Information something that should remain classified? Next thing you know, we will be trying terrorists outside of military courts. Oh thats right...

By the way, when a politician does something "in an effort to", it rings hollow with me.

How about he start with the Stimulus Bill and Health Care same. Not much disclosure or transparency in trying to ram stuff through without even his own congress not knowing their complete contents let alone the people. The only reason there was a modicum of transparency there was because of many concerned about it. The "many" certianly was not him or his people.

RC

[Boreas]

Isn't Nation Security Information something that should remain classified?

There are often cases where the reasons for keeping something classified no longer apply. There are also occasions when a document is classified solely to conceal wrongdoing on the part of those in power. In those cases the "people's right to know" should dictate that the information be declassified.

Next thing you know, we will be trying terrorists outside of military courts. Oh thats right...

Where was Richard Reid tried? How about Zacarias Moussaoui? Jose Padilla? Who was president then?

How about he start with the Stimulus Bill and Health Care same. Not much disclosure or transparency in trying to ram stuff through without even his own congress not knowing their complete contents let alone the people.

Congress wrote both the Stimulus and the Health Care bills. How can you possibly maintain that they were kept in the dark?

The only reason there was a modicum of transparency there was because of many concerned about it. The "many" certianly was not him or his people.

RC

I think you need a rest, my friend. You're getting a bit shrill here.

John

[doucanoe]

There are often cases where the reasons for keeping something classified no longer apply. There are also occasions when a document is classified solely to conceal wrongdoing on the part of those in power. In those cases the "people's right to know" should dictate that the information be declassified.

Once again, "in an effort" is not very substantive. Sounds good though. Beyond that, I'm not sure thats a door you want to open.



Where was Richard Reid tried? How about Zacarias Moussaoui? Jose Padilla? Who was president then?

Bush. My comment was more to the fact that these trials are going to be held in a Civilian court, in New York City. This upcoming trial is going to be far different than the above listed





Congress wrote both the Stimulus and the Health Care bills. How can you possibly maintain that they were kept in the dark

You must be joking. Have you forgotten congress being asked to push though the Stimulus bill without time to read it because N.P. had to jet off to Europe. The same with the initial Health Care bills presented. How could the people know what was contained in them if congress had no clue. Thats a far cry from transparency.





I think you need a rest, my friend. You're getting a bit shrill here.

John

Shrill?
Once again, surely your joking.

RC

[Boreas]

Once again, "in an effort" is not very substantive. Sounds good though.

I've checked, using the Firefox "Find" text tool and I don't see those words in the Executive Order. For that matter they don't come up in the NY Times article or the Presidential Memorandum. Frankly, unless they're in the actual order, it isn't of the slightest importance.

Beyond that, I'm not sure thats a door you want to open.

Why not? As something of a Libertarian, I'd suppose your suspicions of government would require that sort of openness.

But I'm pretty sure it's a door Cheney doesn't want to see opened.

Bush. My comment was more to the fact that these trials are going to be held in a Civilian court, in New York City. This upcoming trial is going to be far different than the above listed.

No, sorry. They'll all be held in Federal Court.

You must be joking. Have you forgotten congress being asked to push though the Stimulus bill without time to read it because N.P. had to jet off to Europe. The same with the initial Health Care bills presented. How could the people know what was contained in them if congress had no clue. Thats a far cry from transparency.

Nope! I don't. Anyway, the House Bill wasn't the final bill. You're just parroting Republican whining.

As to the Health Care bill, you do know that the House and Senate wrote their respective bills, don't you? So, they don't know what they wrote? I'm sure that few if any Republicans wasted a second reading them, however, since they never intended to vote for any kind of health care bill - or for that matter any kind of Democratic bill.

Shrill?
Once again, surely your joking.

No, and stop calling me Surely.

John

[doucanoe]

John,

I do have a healthy suspicion of government and our current administration isn't doing much to alleviate that. In fact, I believe that there is possibly more to be concerned about today than during the Bush administration.

Cheney... You could certainly add many more to that list including your own bobo's. Nah, It ain't gonna happen my friend. Thats all posturing or parroting democrat whining using your own phraseology. When the rubber meets the road, the only disclosure you are going to have is going to be all about nothing. None of these guys are going hang themselves in the process of trying to hang another. Now that I think about it, it might be for the good of all if they went that route.

You like the New York Times, right?
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/14/us/14terror.html

Accused 9/11 Mastermind to Face Civilian Trial in N.Y.
By CHARLIE SAVAGE
Published: November 13, 2009

Help me out here. What am I missing?


"As to the Health Care bill, you do know that the House and Senate wrote their respective bills, don't you? So, they don't know what they wrote?"


In the end I certainly would like to believe thats the case. Prior to that, no. The Republican offering was never given any time by the Dem's initially and you know that. Later, concession had to be made for Obama to get his watered down version accepted more or less with limited Rep. input. Initially, it was a speedy rush to vote and many on both sides if the fence (admittedly so) had not clue as to what was in even half of it. You seem to have a very short and selective memory.

RC

[Boreas]

You like the New York Times, right?
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/14/us/14terror.html

Accused 9/11 Mastermind to Face Civilian Trial in N.Y.
By CHARLIE SAVAGE
Published: November 13, 2009

Civilian as in not military but it's in Federal District Court. Eric Holder can't order anything else.

In the end I certainly would like to believe thats the case. Prior to that, no. The Republican offering was never given any time by the Dem's initially and you know that.

You seem to know more about what I know than I know I know. What was the Republican offering?

Later, concession had to be made for Obama to get his watered down version accepted more or less with limited Rep. input.

I thought the Republicans weren't able to have any input.

Where do you get the idea that the watered down bill was Obama's work? Don't you think it was more the result of Republican and Blue Dog influence, to say nothing of Lieberman's? That's what I think.

John

[BlueStreak]

Leave it in the f**kin' ground.

Dave

[BlueStreak]

"I thought the Republicans weren't able to have any input."

The Republicans are always the big, tough, gunslinging cowboys who can't get anything done because those pussy ass pinko fags across the isle keep muscling them out of the dialog. Don't you know anything, John?:D

Now, get back on topic, Dudes. I fuckin' hate it when people hijack my threads. It's rude.

Dave

[doucanoe]

Here ya go.

http://www.gop.gov/solutions/healthcare


And another viewpoint heard. For fairness of course.


http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/11/congressional_budget_office_th.html

RC

[doucanoe]

"I thought the Republicans weren't able to have any input."

The Republicans are always the big, tough, gunslinging cowboys who can't get anything done because those pussy ass pinko fags across the isle keep muscling them out of the dialog. Don't you know anything, John?:D

Now, get back on topic, Dudes. I fuckin' hate it when people hijack my threads. It's rude.

Dave


Sorry Dave,

I'm out.

RC

[Boreas]

Now, get back on topic, Dudes. I fuckin' hate it when people hijack my threads. It's rude.

Dave

You're right. Sorry. I'm all done.

John

[Charles]

I, for one, have stayed on topic...for a change.

Now the REAL reason that we don't drill for our own oil is because those Commie Pinko Faggot Donks are saving the world. Pelosi Galore said so herself, even repeated herself.

Saving the world, that's even a better excuse than "If it saves one child"!!!!!

Chas

[BlueStreak]

I know that's the reason. So what? Too many Americans are short-sighted and pig-headed.
It's obvious that reasoning with them does not work. The next time the industry
artificially jacks up the price, or fakes another "shortage" to force the damned sheep
into the corporate slaughterhouse, (Most likely to occur during the next Republican
regime.), just remember it has NOTHING to do with what's good for the country or
the future generations.

Any excuse that keeps them from squandering this resource is fine with me.

And, yes, that's right. I am a hypocrite. Both of my vehicles are gas hogs.
I am to some degree, a product of my environment. So there!:p

Dave

[Charles]

The Republicans? The best I remember, once Shrub said he was going to open up ANWAR and offshore drilling, the oil bubble burst.

I realize that this is a simplistic view of a complicated situation. That said, can I be a Democrat now????????

Chas

[HatchetJack]

Better to be the wolf than the sheep. Well it was until all the leaches showed
up and bled out the wolf. Guess who's next?

[HatchetJack]

Bush had the sheiks bluffed for a while till Big Al's army cryed foul. Bunch of
bozo's:mad:

[Charles]

Better to be the wolf than the sheep. Well it was until all the leaches showed
up and bled out the wolf. Guess who's next?

Quite simple, my man.

The rich run things to their benefit. The poor have nothing to steal. So the middle class will be robbed.

But if it saves ONE child, who am I to complain.

Chas

[noonereal]

Bingo.

Use up every last drop of theirs before we start drilling our own.

Dave

Dave, I don't think that would do much.

We are all interdependent.

[HatchetJack]

We probably have more oil in Alabama than some of those hotbeds in the
middle east. I think it's safe for now. The bigger issue is fighting to keep the
American dollar high. Our enemies want to sell for euros not dollars. That is
why we are over there. If it was for American oil company profit, obama
would have pulled out by now. He can't pull out because our economy, whats
left of it, needs the dollar to be strong and oil needs to be high so that the
government can continue to feed itself off the oil revenues. With corporate
profits in the toilet, there's not much left. When we trade oil in Dollars, other
countries funnel money through our banks and we all get fat. Bush really
had the best interest of our country by ousting Saddam. But in reality it was
just delaying the total collapse of our dollar and country. We keep printing
money with nothing to back it up and soon we can just wipe our ass with it.

[noonereal]

[QUOTE=HatchetJack;13377]Bush really
had the best interest of our country by ousting Saddam. QUOTE]

How does/did ousting Saddam work toward the best interest of our country?

[HatchetJack]

He threatened to sell his oil for euros. If all of opec were to follow suit, our
outlook is very bleak. We dont have much to offer the rest of the world.
Some are keeping us propped up because of the consumers that we are and
others just keep us around to be the world's police. Iran has now gone to
all euros and the dollar keeps losing ground to it. We are in big trouble.

[BlueStreak]

Dave, I don't think that would do much.

We are all interdependent.

Really? What else to we need the Arabs for?
I know how that sounds, but really?

Dave

[BlueStreak]

He threatened to sell his oil for euros. If all of opec were to follow suit, our
outlook is very bleak. We dont have much to offer the rest of the world.
Some are keeping us propped up because of the consumers that we are and
others just keep us around to be the world's police. Iran has now gone to
all euros and the dollar keeps losing ground to it. We are in big trouble.

When Europeans buy oil, what do you think they pay for it with? My guess would be Euros. Wouldn't it?

Dave

[HatchetJack]

Well yes and no, it's complicated. The oil had to be purchased with dollars so
it has to be exchanged. For years countries had to keep reserves in our
banks so it allowed us to operate at their expense. The dollar was no longer
backed by gold but oil. We essentially taxed the world. Saddam saw this and
started selling his oil for euros, cashed out his oil for food dollars into euros
and really pissed us off. The dollar started to plummet and we took him out
using liberation and wmd as excuses. Iran has now started to sell only for
euros and Russia and our other enemies sit back and chuckle. It's the
ultimate nuclear weapon to bring us down. Boom!! Guess who's next on
our hit list?

[BlueStreak]

Makes sense, I guess.

[BlueStreak]

Rant on,

You know, it just occured to me----------Why the lies?

Ya might say that if GWB had simply told us it was about oil then the war wouldn't have had any support from the git-go. But, I don't know about that. Some of us knew that's what the whole Iraq thing was from the start. And we were accused of being idiots, unpatriotic---whatever. Once we figured out that the WMDs were bogus, and the whole "liberation" thing was hooey, the administration was pretty much caught. No one can deny, or at least shouldn't try to deny, the damage this did to the GOP.

"This is about exchange rates and keeping energy costs under control, but I'm sending in the troops anyway. By the time you break out you picket signs, it will be too late."

Okay, some folks will be upset about that, but at least we know what's up.

You see. This is what makes me crazy. Just tell me what you're up to. I'm not stupid, (Some of you may disagree.), explain to me what's really going on, even if I disagree, I will respect the honesty. If you Lie to me, and I have to figure it out on my own, I may hate you forever. Now, before you get started, I don't mean this to be a partisan thing. I see that the lying is all around.
That's whay I'm so mad/disappointed with Obama and the Dems. If your ultimate goal a "single payer" system, then explain in clear, unambiguous language exactly what that is, draw up the bill and hunker down for the fight. Don't tell everyone that that's not really what your after, when everyone knows goddamn well it is. THAT'S when they stop listening and start shouting. Geez!!!

"We're proposing a single payer system. Many of you will not like the idea, and you will fight us. That's okay, you have a right to speak your mind. See you in the arena."

Wouldn't you like to hear a leader gather up the stones to say something like that just once?
We've had them in the past, but that was long ago, and I see no one out there now who
fits the description.

Rant over.

Dave