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View Full Version : We are NEVER wrong............................!


BlueStreak
01-01-2010, 05:48 PM
For sometime now there have been people upset because they see our President as being an "apologist". The same ilk were the ones who were whining when Clinton "apologized" for slavery.

Now, to be honest, I am not familiar with every incident in which the Prez alledgedly apologized for this that or the other thing. I'm just curious about the mentality of people who think our leaders should "never apologize for anything", and then get offended when foriegners accuse us of being arrogant. After all, isn't refusing to acknowledge responsibility for a given tragedy the very essence of arrogance?

I know it's hard. In my personal life, I've had to face people and admit I've done them wrong. It really sucks, but I was raised that; "It takes more of a man to admit he was wrong." And I have found that it's true. People will respect you more if you acknowledge your mistakes.

Here's what I think;

A). Pride. Admitting fault is admitting to being imperfect.
Telling the world that some idea or ideology that you, or your predessors
may have been wrong, puts a dent in your self-esteem and is therefore to
avoided at all costs.

B). "If God is with us, then who dare be against us?"
Admitting that slavery, the forced relocation of Native Americans,
"Jim Crow", sweatshops, child labor, lynchings, etc, etc, really happened
after shouting all day that your society "was built on Christian
Principles" makes you look like the ass that even you, deep down
inside , know you really are. So, you try to hide behind the
cross.Then you commence to white-washing the past in a
pathetic attempt to exonerate yourself and your ancestors.:eek::D:p

(Clue-----Everyone knows, including Jesus, so just stop it already.)

C). "It weakens America"
How so? I'll just sit back and let you explain that one. 'Cuz this
assertion makes no sense at all to me.:confused:


Dave

Grumpy
01-02-2010, 07:25 AM
Admitting your wrong and doing something about it is two different things.

merrylander
01-02-2010, 07:26 AM
It is just part of the national psyche, for example the schools teach us how noble a thing was the Boston Tea Party - hogwash. The colonists were intent on stealing the Indians lands and the Indians fought back. So Mother England was asked for troops to fight the Indians. Now King George had enough problems at home so he was not about to ask the people in England to foot the bill for all those troops and the East India Company was having financial problems so to solve both he put a tax on tea. The fact that General Cornwallis was an incompetent blunderer aside, who else should have picked up the tab?

It was sort of like a time in a bar in California years before I came down here. Got into conversation with a nice lady - her husband was busy chasing young chicks. When he stopped by to get another drink she said "George I want you to meet this gentleman from Canada". He looked at me and said "Humpf, you Canadians are screwing us with your oil prices". I looked back at him and said "We figured it should not be like the iron ore business, where you got the ore and we got the shaft."

We need to realize that other folks do not really hate us, but the practices of some of our companies sure did not win many friends.

BlueStreak
01-02-2010, 08:33 AM
Admitting your wrong and doing something about it is two different things.

True, if you admit to being wrong about something and then continue to do it anyways, you go from being an ass to being a colossal ass.......

Dave

Sandy G
01-02-2010, 01:06 PM
The thing about Hoosain Jug Ears is that WHAT did he need to apologise to the Saudis for ? For us having the temerity for paying their usurous prices for oil, when we've pulled their bacon outta the fire, especially over Saddam ? Don't think for one minute Saddam would have stopped w/Kuwait, he was after The Big Enchilada-Saudi Arabia. Everything else, in my estimation about the Gulf War, has been nothing but eyewash. And virtually everybody has missed it-Which is what, I think, The Powers That Be wanted.... I also think The Halfrican looked a little too much like Stepin Fetchit when he bowed to Abdul Abulbul Amir Al-Bundy Saud...or WTFever his name is...

Boreas
01-02-2010, 01:32 PM
The thing about Hoosain Jug Ears is that WHAT did he need to apologise to the Saudis for ?

When did President Obama do that?

John

merrylander
01-02-2010, 02:59 PM
The Kuwaities were slant drilling into Iraq's oil basin so they were not exactly sweet innocents.

Boreas
01-02-2010, 04:00 PM
The Kuwaities were slant drilling into Iraq's oil basin so they were not exactly sweet innocents.

Bingo! And our Ambassador to Iraq, April Glaspie, gave Saddam the go-ahead to invade. Right before the invasion she told Saddam, "We have no opinion on your Arab-Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait. Secretary Baker has directed me to emphasize the instruction, first given to Iraq in the 1960s, that the Kuwait issue is not associated with America."

And that poor little teenage Kuwaiti girl who tearfully told Congress of seeing the Iraqis dumping babies out of incubators so they could be used in Iraqi hospitals? Nothing but lies. She was the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the US and hadn't even been in Kuwait at the time.

John

Charles
01-02-2010, 08:40 PM
The thing about Hoosain Jug Ears is that WHAT did he need to apologise to the Saudis for ? For us having the temerity for paying their usurous prices for oil, when we've pulled their bacon outta the fire, especially over Saddam ? Don't think for one minute Saddam would have stopped w/Kuwait, he was after The Big Enchilada-Saudi Arabia. Everything else, in my estimation about the Gulf War, has been nothing but eyewash. And virtually everybody has missed it-Which is what, I think, The Powers That Be wanted.... I also think The Halfrican looked a little too much like Stepin Fetchit when he bowed to Abdul Abulbul Amir Al-Bundy Saud...or WTFever his name is...

Now Sandy, play nice in the sandbox.

Calling the Bolshevik in Chief "Hoosan Jug Ears" isn't very polite. Besides, I'm sure you realize that the left would have never used such an insult when addressing the Chimpster.

Chas

Sandy G
01-02-2010, 09:21 PM
Uhh, you mean stuff like "Chimpy McHaliburton Bushitler" ?!? And, last time I checked "Hussein" in the Community-Organiser-In-Chief's middle name..."Jug-Ears" is a reasonably apt description, I think its somewhat more respectable than "Alfred E. Neumann-Head", whom Barry also resembles...(grin)

Boreas
01-02-2010, 10:00 PM
Uhh, you mean stuff like "Chimpy McHaliburton Bushitler" ?!? And, last time I checked "Hussein" in the Community-Organiser-In-Chief's middle name..."Jug-Ears" is a reasonably apt description, I think its somewhat more respectable than "Alfred E. Neumann-Head", whom Barry also resembles...(grin)

What do you want, Sandy? You want this board to stay as a pretty civil forum for contrasting political views or do you want to change it into a cage match of infantile insults and name-calling?

Just askin'.

John

Combwork
01-03-2010, 05:41 AM
Admitting your wrong and doing something about it is two different things.

Throughout his childhood, a man who used to work for me was taught by his father "absolutely never apologise, even if you know you were wrong. Only weak people apologise". This was back in the good old 1950's and despite knowing what he'd been taught was wrong, he was never entirely able to put it behind him. I never saw him hit his children, but he could terrify them with his voice.

He was just plain wrong but having said that, maybe we've swung too far the other way. "never stop a child doing anything in case it effects their emotional development and God help you if you if you ever raise a hand to my child", then these same people complain about poor discipline in schools and wonder why countries that take education seriously produce smarter, more hard working adults.

As you Americans would say, "go figure".

noonereal
01-03-2010, 06:47 AM
"never stop a child doing anything in case it effects their emotional development

I have never heard of this. Where is this practiced/advocated?
Seems ridiculous on the surface but I would like to read the theory as to how this is positive.
and God help you if you if you ever raise a hand to my child", .
God would not be able to help you if you raised a hand to one to my kids. I am not a blow hard and I am dead serious.

noonereal
01-03-2010, 06:51 AM
What do you want, Sandy? You want this board to stay as a pretty civil forum for contrasting political views or do you want to change it into a cage match of infantile insults and name-calling?

Just askin'.

John

he doesn't like Obie. :D

Charles
01-03-2010, 08:44 AM
What do you want, Sandy? You want this board to stay as a pretty civil forum for contrasting political views or do you want to change it into a cage match of infantile insults and name-calling?

Just askin'.

John

Careful John, you're gonna bust Sandy's lollypop...besides, he finished his statement with a "grin"!!!

Besides, Obamma yo Mamma hasn't taken nearly the insults that some on the right have had heaped upon them, most noticeable the "tea baggers" and Sarah Palin.

But I can be a troublemaker too, especially when I'm sober!!! In the spirit of "Why can't we all just get along", I promise to holster MY lollypop, so long as everyone else does too.

Is everybody happy?????????

Chas

noonereal
01-03-2010, 08:50 AM
most noticeable the "tea baggers" and Sarah Palin.



ah yes, the lovely Sarah. Does she tea bag? :D



(I ended my post with a grin :p)

Charles
01-03-2010, 08:52 AM
Throughout his childhood, a man who used to work for me was taught by his father "absolutely never apologise, even if you know you were wrong. Only weak people apologise". This was back in the good old 1950's and despite knowing what he'd been taught was wrong, he was never entirely able to put it behind him. I never saw him hit his children, but he could terrify them with his voice.

He was just plain wrong but having said that, maybe we've swung too far the other way. "never stop a child doing anything in case it effects their emotional development and God help you if you if you ever raise a hand to my child", then these same people complain about poor discipline in schools and wonder why countries that take education seriously produce smarter, more hard working adults.

As you Americans would say, "go figure".

A person can apologize too much. But when you do or say something that is wrong, and we all have, an apology is in order.

As far as corporal punishment, a little can go a long way. And every child is different. The rod has it's place, but I would recommend using it sparingly.

Chas

Charles
01-03-2010, 08:55 AM
ah yes, the lovely Sarah. Does she tea bag? :D



(I ended my post with a grin :p)

Everybody likes a little ass, but nobody likes a wise ass.

And that be you, Noon!!!!!

"Grin"!!!!!!

Chas

noonereal
01-03-2010, 08:58 AM
Everybody likes a little ass, but nobody likes a wise ass.

And that be you, Noon!!!!!

"Grin"!!!!!!

Chas

come on Chas, don't you kinda want to attend an "event" with the lovely Sarah?

BlueStreak
01-03-2010, 09:15 AM
I love to insult and belittle the right. And I really don't blame them when they fire back.

"They smote me hip and thigh, and right merrily did I return the blows!"
------John L. Lewis

Charles
01-03-2010, 09:19 AM
I love to insult and belittle the right. And I really don't blame them when they fire back.

"They smote me hip and thigh, and right merrily did I return the blows!"
------John L. Lewis

Troublemaker!!!!!!

Chas

Combwork
01-03-2010, 10:05 AM
First sorry about the mixed up italics; I can't find how to switch part of them off. Suffice to say blue writing is from thee to me; black writing from me to thee...........[B]

I have never heard of this. Where is this practiced/advocated?
Seems ridiculous on the surface but I would like to read the theory as to how this is positive.

Don't know about the 'States but in U.K. in the 60's, there were some 'trendy' schools (mostly in London) where teachers thought if you surrounded them with books children would learn by a kind of osmosis. Didn't work.

God would not be able to help you if you raised a hand to one to my kids. I am not a blow hard and I am dead serious.

You're missing my point. It was never the case where you could smack someone else's child, but again in the 1950's/early 60's it was not unknown for the local 'Bobby' (Policeman) to clip a truant round the ear (not hard, just enough to emphasis that they shouldn't be playing in bombed out buildings, nicking apples off market stalls etc.). The alternative would have been to take them to the Police station, charge them with trespass or theft, drag their parents in to pick them up (believe me; that could earn them a lot more than a clip round the ear), take them to Court, fine them (which their parents would have had to pay) and give them a criminal record.

Quote again.

God would not be able to help you if you raised a hand to one to my kids. I am not a blow hard and I am dead serious.

What do you think of corporal punishment in schools? Now it's outlawed in the U.K. but up to the 1960's a lot of schools used it. Scottish schools were harder than English schools. Luckily I wasn't educated here but a friend of mine was. On his first day at secondary school he and all the other new boys were lined up, told to hold their hands out and given one hard swipe with the Tawse (split ended cane). Then they were told that if they misbehaved they'd get more. It's traditional for blowhards my age to say something like "I got the cane several times when I was at school and it never did me any harm". My reply to that is as they have no base for comparison, how could they possibly know?

Quote again again.

God would not be able to help you if you raised a hand to one to my kids. I am not a blow hard and I am dead serious.[/QUOTE]

What would you do if the local school bully persistently hurt your daughter, and his parents were unwilling (or unable) to control him? If you saw him hurting her again would you haul him off her and when he used foul language and promised to 'get her when your back was turned', maybe lose your temper and hit him?

I was in a position like this. After we moved house my daughter went to a new school with a useless head teacher. He refused to accept the playground was run by a group of bullies; one boy in particular. My daughter was the new kid on the block, the target. After the school did nothing, I managed to get her back to her old school. She was a lot happier until she went to a local dance. The bully was there and gave her a hard time. Evening ruined; no social life (she was 13), back to square one.

I'd had enough so I 'phoned the boys parents, spoke to his mother (his father was out) and told her if her son ever went near my daughter again, I'd bounce him up one side of the school playground and down the other. Half an hour later her husband 'phoned me back and said if I ever touched his son he'd put me in hospital (your attitude?) so I said OK, I'll be round your house in half an hour. My wife tried to stop me but like I said, I'd had enough.

Amazingly, when I got there no blows were exchanged; instead we started to talk. Turns out his son though physically strong, was weak willed and did what his sister told him to do (she was a seriously nasty piece of work). The father was badly beaten by HIS father when he was a child so would not even raise his voice to his son. The mother ruled the roost and thought both her children were 'little angels'. Since I talked to both parents, the boy never touched my daughter again so tell me. What would you have done in my situation?

finnbow
01-03-2010, 11:00 AM
Back to the OP. I think the folks that (over)react to what they see as apologies by Obama have largely fallen victim to the "American exceptionalism" argument. Namely, they see America as inherently better than other nations, with loftier ideals, purer motivations, etc. (they relish the shining city on the hill metaphor). This nationalistic poppycock limits their ability to recognize where and when we screw up in international affairs. This myopia also results in the inability to learn valuable lessons from poorly executed international entanglements.

These "apologies" by Obama are nothing more than his acknowledgment of some of these screw-ups to people outside our borders who have long since been keenly aware of them. He's basically showing himself to be realist with some knowledge of history and diplomacy rather than an ideological and antagonistic dolt.

noonereal
01-03-2010, 12:26 PM
What would you do if the local school bully persistently hurt your daughter, and his parents were unwilling (or unable) to control him?

I would do exactly what you did. I though I had made that clear.


If you saw him hurting her again would you haul him off her and when he used foul language and promised to 'get her when your back was turned', maybe lose your temper and hit him?

I sure as hell would.



I'd had enough so I 'phoned the boys parents, spoke to his mother (his father was out) and told her if her son ever went near my daughter again, I'd bounce him up one side of the school playground and down the other. Half an hour later her husband 'phoned me back and said if I ever touched his son he'd put me in hospital (your attitude?)


No. If my kid was the aggressor I would handle it and make amends for his actions.


Amazingly, when I got there no blows were exchanged; instead we started to talk. Turns out his son though physically strong, was weak willed and did what his sister told him to do (she was a seriously nasty piece of work). The father was badly beaten by HIS father when he was a child so would not even raise his voice to his son. The mother ruled the roost and thought both her children were 'little angels'. Since I talked to both parents, the boy never touched my daughter again so tell me. What would you have done in my situation?


I think you make an excellent case for not beating kids.

As to cops or teachers hitting kids, ridiculous and a recipe for abuse.

There is a thread here dealing with schools that still practice this archaic ritual. It seems the same folks who resit all change what to keep smacking 40pound kids. Go figure, not mine.

noonereal
01-03-2010, 12:28 PM
Back to the OP. I think the folks that (over)react to what they see as apologies by Obama have largely fallen victim to the "American exceptionalism" argument. Namely, they see America as inherently better than other nations, with loftier ideals, purer motivations, etc. (they relish the shining city on the hill metaphor). This nationalistic poppycock limits their ability to recognize where and when we screw up in international affairs. This myopia also results in the inability to learn valuable lessons from poorly executed international entanglements.

These "apologies" by Obama are nothing more than his acknowledgment of some of these screw-ups to people outside our borders who have long since been keenly aware of them. He's basically showing himself to be realist with some knowledge of history and diplomacy rather than an ideological and antagonistic dolt.

+1

...

HatchetJack
01-03-2010, 10:02 PM
The Civil War was more about power, money, greed, food and cotton than
about slavery. Cotton was king kinda like oil is now. The power and the money
was in the south so the United States blockaded the ports and invaded.
Sound famaliar? Dont get me wrong, slavery was a terrible thing but not as
bad as it has been portrayed in hollywood. I'm sure there were some bad
plantation owners but mostly they were well treated and cared for. It was
worse to just turn them loose on the inner citys to hustle. Just another
liberation cause to start a war. Slavery would have disolved itself with the
invention of modern machinery anyway. I had family members on both sides
of the war. One, Gen. Albert Sidney Johnston was killed at Shiloh and another
wounded in both arms and crippled for life trying to defend his homeland
against an invading army intent on burning, looting, killing and raping. Will
I apologize for them fighting for a cause they thought was right? HELL NO

BlueStreak
01-03-2010, 10:31 PM
Whatever, Jack. Try telling the next Black person you meet that slavery wasn't as bad as his ancestors told him it was. Geez.

Dave

BlueStreak
01-03-2010, 10:46 PM
Back to the OP. I think the folks that (over)react to what they see as apologies by Obama have largely fallen victim to the "American exceptionalism" argument. Namely, they see America as inherently better than other nations, with loftier ideals, purer motivations, etc. (they relish the shining city on the hill metaphor). This nationalistic poppycock limits their ability to recognize where and when we screw up in international affairs. This myopia also results in the inability to learn valuable lessons from poorly executed international entanglements.

These "apologies" by Obama are nothing more than his acknowledgment of some of these screw-ups to people outside our borders who have long since been keenly aware of them. He's basically showing himself to be realist with some knowledge of history and diplomacy rather than an ideological and antagonistic dolt.


Beautifully put, Finnbow.

This is why I think one of the worst things that came out of WW2 was this absurd notion that if you kick the living piss out of another country, they will become your friends. There are people in this country who honestly buy into this monstrous line of thinking.

Remember GWBs comments on this? "Why, look at Germany and Japan. They were our enemies during the war, and now their our best friends."
I'll bet people all around the globe were thinking; "Man, I wish the Americans would lay waste to my country so we can be friends." :rolleyes:

Dave

Combwork
01-04-2010, 02:51 AM
[QUOTE=noonereal;13483]
Quote=combwork
If you saw him hurting her again would you haul him off her and when he used foul language and promised to 'get her when your back was turned', maybe lose your temper and hit him?
Quote =noonereal
I sure as hell would.
Quote=combwork
What you say makes sense except for the above; goes in direct contradiction to your original post "God would not be able to help you if you raised a hand to my kids"

The point is noonereal, in some circumstances it's not what you do, it's what people think you would do. The boys parents had to believe I would push a lot harder if I had to. It was a risky strategy; the man was a builder and if push had come to shove, chances are it would have been me who was bounced up and down the playground but like I said, having tried everything else I'd kind of run out of options. I couldn't just ignore it

Sandy G
01-04-2010, 05:57 AM
OK, OK, "Hoosain Jug-Ears" & "Alfred E. Neumann" were, perhaps a bit over the top references to The Halfrican, even for a reactionary bastard like me. Do y'all like "Earflaps McSpendy-Pants" any better ? Seems to be a bit more descriptive, anyway... It's also gonna be fun to see what transpires here shortly when the former Guvnor of Illannoys, Rod Blowjobovich, goes on trial, & subpeonas both Barry & his consigliere, Rhambo Emmanuel. HotRod, buddy, I'd watch my backside, if I was you...People have "Met with Accidents" for a helluva lot less....Especially when they've tried to cross some of the Chicago Establishment...Oh, and, y'all here-Lighten Up...This is sposed to be fun...An' pokin' fun at politicos is part of what's so great about Amurrica...

noonereal
01-04-2010, 06:58 AM
[QUOTE=noonereal;13483]
Quote=combwork
If you saw him hurting her again would you haul him off her and when he used foul language and promised to 'get her when your back was turned', maybe lose your temper and hit him?
Quote =noonereal
I sure as hell would.
Quote=combwork
What you say makes sense except for the above; goes in direct contradiction to your original post "God would not be able to help you if you raised a hand to my kids"

The point is noonereal, in some circumstances it's not what you do, it's what people think you would do. The boys parents had to believe I would push a lot harder if I had to. It was a risky strategy; the man was a builder and if push had come to shove, chances are it would have been me who was bounced up and down the playground but like I said, having tried everything else I'd kind of run out of options. I couldn't just ignore it

It absolutely does not. Protecting a child against a violent crime is in no way the same as using violence to discipline a child.
Just because the bully is a minor it does not make it legal for him to assault someone.
I don't understand how you can't see the distinction.
As I said earlier I am not a blow hard and dislike blow hards. I try to be very measured in what I do so as never to appear as such. In this case it would not have been a strategy of mine, it would have been resolve.

We had an incident up this way recently where a girl hit another girl during after a soccer match instead of shaking her hand after the match. It made national news. This was a criminal act. Just because kids go to the same school or compete with another school does not lessen an assault. An assault is an assault and requires a different set of responses than does a mischievous or disorderly youthful event.
Seems the excuse offered in court was that the girl who stuck out struck out because she lost was always hit by her parents so it is understandable that she also became a monster.
When you hit kids you teach them to hit.
It is that simple.
This has nothing to do with protecting oneself from violence.

BlueStreak
01-04-2010, 08:01 AM
If you want to discuss corporal punishment vs child abuse, start another thread. PLEASE.

(And this comes from a kid who was once whipped with an extension cord for refusing to go to church.)

Dave

noonereal
01-04-2010, 09:41 AM
If you want to discuss corporal punishment vs child abuse, start another thread. PLEASE.

(And this comes from a kid who was once whipped with an extension cord for refusing to go to church.)

Dave

Well if you say so Dave. :cool:

Combwork
01-04-2010, 11:24 AM
Well if you say so Dave. :cool:

Absolutely (hangs head in shame) but it's an interesting thing that although face to face political debates start at a common point, chances are in half an hour the original question will be long forgotten...........

noonereal
01-04-2010, 01:02 PM
you would be hard pressed to find a thread that does not veer off but Dave is dutiful to trying to keep them on target.
There is a thread (a very interesting thread) on corporal punishment somewhere here. I looked to revive it but I did not find it. :(

piece-itpete
01-04-2010, 01:25 PM
The thing about Hoosain Jug Ears is that WHAT did he need to apologise to the Saudis for ? For us having the temerity for paying their usurous prices for oil, when we've pulled their bacon outta the fire, especially over Saddam ? Don't think for one minute Saddam would have stopped w/Kuwait, he was after The Big Enchilada-Saudi Arabia. Everything else, in my estimation about the Gulf War, has been nothing but eyewash. And virtually everybody has missed it-Which is what, I think, The Powers That Be wanted.... I also think The Halfrican looked a little too much like Stepin Fetchit when he bowed to Abdul Abulbul Amir Al-Bundy Saud...or WTFever his name is...

Ever notice there was very little 'official' condemnation from Saddams immediate neighbors. He was a regional threat.

And folks forget about root causes. At first Osama never mentioned say the Palestinians, but he did talk about foreign troops in the holy land (US soldiers in Saudi Arabia).

Obama is bending over forward to foriegn officals because he's bending over backward to his base :)

I can't talk about spanking my friends sons girlfriends' kid? Darn.

Pete

noonereal
01-04-2010, 02:46 PM
I can't talk about spanking my friends sons girlfriends' kid?



:confused: The mom though tht was cool?

But no we cannot address it. :D

piece-itpete
01-04-2010, 03:21 PM
But no we cannot address it. :D

Damn.

:D

Pete

noonereal
01-04-2010, 04:46 PM
Damn.

:D

Pete

lol ;) ,

Sandy G
01-05-2010, 02:55 PM
I just kinda miss the days when we Americans ALL considered the USA the best place to live in the whole world, & a US president didn't feel the need to apologise to ANY gawdam body about ANY gawdam thing...Now, we've got a bunch of smart-ass sophomores trying to run the show...

Boreas
01-05-2010, 03:20 PM
I just kinda miss the days when we Americans ALL considered the USA the best place to live in the whole world, & a US president didn't feel the need to apologise to ANY gawdam body about ANY gawdam thing...Now, we've got a bunch of smart-ass sophomores trying to run the show...

Point taken but I doubt there was ever a time when everyone here thought the US was the best place on earth. Folks just ain't built that way. As for apologizing, apart from the fact that Obama hasn't actually done that yet, no country is ever perfect and it's only grown up to admit your mistakes and wise to acknowledge the importance of international goodwill.

John

merrylander
01-05-2010, 03:34 PM
Try living in a different country that has American Corporations operating within its borders, you might change your mind about apologies.

Boreas
01-05-2010, 03:48 PM
The only time recently that I can recall an American president actually apologizing for something it was when Clinton apologized for not intervening in the Rwandan genocide. That apology was entirely justified, IMO.

John

Sandy G
01-05-2010, 04:57 PM
Go read the rant on the US Navy on "Grouchy Old Cripple in Atlanta"...That's where I cribbed that last one.

piece-itpete
01-06-2010, 07:39 AM
I just kinda miss the days when we Americans ALL considered the USA the best place to live in the whole world, & a US president didn't feel the need to apologise to ANY gawdam body about ANY gawdam thing...Now, we've got a bunch of smart-ass sophomores trying to run the show...

Loving your nation-state is wrong and leads to the exploitation of the proletariat by the capitalists, Sandy. Get with the program!

Pick up a modern high school American history textbook, you can see everything we did wrong, and that everything we did was/is wrong.


Try living in a different country that has American Corporations operating within its borders, you might change your mind about apologies.

I noticed that in England, apparently we're somewhat feared business-wise :)

Pete

merrylander
01-06-2010, 08:07 AM
I noticed that in England, apparently we're somewhat feared business-wise :)

Pete

Feared? I think the word you were looking for is loathed.:rolleyes:

Combwork
01-06-2010, 08:11 AM
I noticed that in England, apparently we're somewhat feared business-wise :)

Pete

Maybe at one time with the likes of FORD and VAUXHALL employing British workers but owned by their parent companies in the U.S.A. but now with British engineering largely a thing of the past, our main income seems to have been international banking. I suspect the Bejing and Tokyo stock markets are seen as more of a threat than Wall Street. "Seems to have been" is what interests me. With EFT nothing was actually manufactured, not even paper. It was nothing more than pyramid selling, and now it's fallen over.

Are the rats leaving the sinking ship in the USA? Our bankers having grabbed their obscene bonusus have largly hightailed it out of the U.K.

merrylander
01-06-2010, 08:41 AM
Are the rats leaving the sinking ship in the USA? Our bankers having grabbed their obscene bonusus have largly hightailed it out of the U.K.

Yeah some of the bunkers (oops bankers) in the propped up companies are skipping out because the poor dears are not getting those obscene bonuses.

Great article in the Post OpEd page by a clergyman. He said if they are to big to fail then make them smaller. He took all the parish accounts, and his own account, out of Bank of America and encouraged his parishoners to do the same. He now does all his banking with a small local bank.:D

piece-itpete
01-06-2010, 09:18 AM
He said if they are to big to fail then make them smaller.

Excellent!

Pete

Sandy G
01-06-2010, 09:39 AM
Oh, yeah, I got pumped full of "The Party Line" when I was in grade skule, hiskule, 'n' college...American capitalists were ALL Evil, ipso facto, the South was full of Evil white slaveowners who beat their poor slaves every nite at 7 on the dot, Roosevelt was The Great White Father on High, who rescued a starving nation from rack 'n' ruin, & then courageously single-handedly beat the dirty Boesch & Yellow Peril hisself, blah, blah, blah....Oh, yeah, & no real progress was made at all in this country until we gave Women the right to vote....An' if it wasn't for Our Gov't so magnamaniously telling us what to do, & modestly only accepting a mere pittance of 33% for guiding us, we would all be wandering around, looking for Flat Rocks to jack off onto....

noonereal
01-06-2010, 09:51 AM
Oh, yeah, I got pumped full of "The Party Line" when I was in grade skule, hiskule, 'n' college...American capitalists were ALL Evil, ipso facto, the South was full of Evil white slaveowners who beat their poor slaves every nite at 7 on the dot, Roosevelt was The Great White Father on High, who rescued a starving nation from rack 'n' ruin, & then courageously single-handedly beat the dirty Boesch & Yellow Peril hisself, blah, blah, blah....Oh, yeah, & no real progress was made at all in this country until we gave Women the right to vote....An' if it wasn't for Our Gov't so magnamaniously telling us what to do, & modestly only accepting a mere pittance of 33% for guiding us, we would all be wandering around, looking for Flat Rocks to jack off onto....

all good stuff! :D

merrylander
01-06-2010, 10:13 AM
Not all businessmen are evil, but by the same token no one died and made them God either.

Charles
01-06-2010, 05:01 PM
Oh, yeah, I got pumped full of "The Party Line" when I was in grade skule, hiskule, 'n' college...American capitalists were ALL Evil, ipso facto, the South was full of Evil white slaveowners who beat their poor slaves every nite at 7 on the dot, Roosevelt was The Great White Father on High, who rescued a starving nation from rack 'n' ruin, & then courageously single-handedly beat the dirty Boesch & Yellow Peril hisself, blah, blah, blah....Oh, yeah, & no real progress was made at all in this country until we gave Women the right to vote....An' if it wasn't for Our Gov't so magnamaniously telling us what to do, & modestly only accepting a mere pittance of 33% for guiding us, we would all be wandering around, looking for Flat Rocks to jack off onto....

I always looked for a curvy tree with a knothole. Just watch out for bees.

Chas

noonereal
01-06-2010, 08:30 PM
Not all businessmen are evil,

I think evil tends to set in at the corporate level rather than the entrepreneurial level.

Sandy G
01-07-2010, 10:36 AM
I think evil tends to set in at the corporate level rather than the entrepreneurial level.

Bingo, Buddy !!

noonereal
01-07-2010, 10:39 AM
Bingo, Buddy !!

nothing being absolute of course

rickr15
01-07-2010, 11:02 AM
I think evil tends to set in at the corporate level rather than the entrepreneurial level.

Agreed for the most part.
Its a lot easier to steal a car than it is to build one if you will.

BlueStreak
01-07-2010, 11:14 AM
I just kinda miss the days when we Americans ALL considered the USA the best place to live in the whole world, & a US president didn't feel the need to apologise to ANY gawdam body about ANY gawdam thing...Now, we've got a bunch of smart-ass sophomores trying to run the show...


I kinda miss the days when Americas industry was alive and well. You know, back before our government decided "consumers deserve more choices" and opened the flood gates for foreign goods? I was very young, but I remember a time when we prided ourselves on the fact that America was a place where a young man just out of highschool could go "down to the mills" and make a decent enough wage to support himself and his family. We didn't have as much problem with welfare and such, because there was little need. We made sure there was plenty of work without beating up on our workers.
But now all we have is this "American workers are lazy and overcompensated!", "You make $20 an hour? That's bullshit!", "American wages need to come in line with foreign competition.", "What makes you think your employer owes you anything?", "If they can get it done cheaper elsewhere and get really rich, good for them! Fuck those (American workers) people!"

Sickening. Just absolutely sickening.

When are you people gonna be happy? When the top .000001% of the population controls 99.999999% of the wealth? And the rest of us are working-----but have absolutely NOTHING to show for it? "Yazzaboss, you 'zactly right, you is da masta uddah universe, and I aint shit..............."

BTW, I still think America is the greatest place on earth.........But not for much longer.

Dave

rickr15
01-07-2010, 12:46 PM
I kinda miss the days when Americas industry was alive and well. You know, back before our government decided "consumers deserve more choices" and opened the flood gates for foreign goods? I was very young, but I remember a time when we prided ourselves on the fact that America was a place where a young man just out of highschool could go "down to the mills" and make a decent enough wage to support himself and his family. We didn't have as much problem with welfare and such, because there was little need. We made sure there was plenty of work without beating up on our workers.
But now all we have is this "American workers are lazy and overcompensated!", "You make $20 an hour? That's bullshit!", "American wages need to come in line with foreign competition.", "What makes you think your employer owes you anything?", "If they can get it done cheaper elsewhere and get really rich, good for them! Fuck those (American workers) people!"

Sickening. Just absolutely sickening.

When are you people gonna be happy? When the top .000001% of the population controls 99.999999% of the wealth? And the rest of us are working-----but have absolutely NOTHING to show for it? "Yazzaboss, you 'zactly right, you is da masta uddah universe, and I aint shit..............."

BTW, I still think America is the greatest place on earth.........But not for much longer.

Dave

Thats pretty well stated.

Sandy G
01-09-2010, 09:57 AM
One thing my granfather was ALWAYS proud of when he looked out the window of his office, over the parking lot of his printing plant was the preponderance of Pickup Trucks. I asked him why once & he said that meant he paid well. Mama likely had a car, Daddy had his pickup, & prolly Buddy & Sis had a car, too... Times changed & we eventually shut that plant down...I walked thru it about a week before we moved up to a new plant, & it was all I could do to keep from bawlin' like a baby...I thought of all the good times we had in that plant, the bad ones, too, but mostly the good ones. I thought of all the times our guys "Got it done" when nobody else in the industry could-Philip Morris was famous-Infamous, actually, for calling in on a Friday at 3 in the afternoon, & absolutely, positively HAD to have 3 million labels in Richmond bright & early Monday morning...And how we'd aLWAYS do it. I thought of all the houses that plant built, the cars it bought, the babies it saw born, & the college educations it financed. The little farms it bought, where Joe & Myrna had a nice little garden, raised a steer or 2 down thru the years, & built themselves that little get-away cabin...And its all gone now. Helluva shame. We had 3,4 generations of families to work at the plant, now the jackasses that own it have a "No family at all" rule. They let me go on the flimsiest of pretexts, I sure do miss the dwindling "Old guard", but as far as the new bunch is concerned ? Feck 'em. Hope they go broke...

BlueStreak
01-09-2010, 12:15 PM
I had an "old-timer"* tell me once; "Lots of big, stable companies providing jobs, strong unions to keep the wages up, and you kids gettin' a better education than my generation ever could have dreamed of. Even put a man on the moon. I'd say we done pretty damn good. What an amazing country."

That was almost fourty years ago.

My, how the times have changed!

Dave

*"old timer" at that time would have been a retired steelman who'd worked the mills his entire life, and had seen America change ---for the better---in his lifetime.

Boreas
01-09-2010, 12:29 PM
...And its all gone now. Helluva shame. We had 3,4 generations of families to work at the plant, now the jackasses that own it have a "No family at all" rule. They let me go on the flimsiest of pretexts, I sure do miss the dwindling "Old guard", but as far as the new bunch is concerned ? Feck 'em. Hope they go broke...

That's a sad tale indeed but not unusual. I know why you feel they ought to go bust but if they do it'll probably mean the jobs will disappear across the Pacific or into Mexico. At least as it is now some Americans have jobs there. Hopefully the owners are American too or all the profits end up leaving the country.

The "no families rule" sucks big time and the reasons for it are pretty transparent. It makes the work force a loose collection of individuals instead of a more or less unified group. Think about it. If you think you're doing okay it's harder for you to muster up a little concern or outrage when "what's his name" at the other end of the line gets fucked over. On the other hand, if it's Cousin Mary's boy, suddenly it becomes your fight too.

And that's what unions are all about.

John

Boreas
01-09-2010, 12:36 PM
I had an "old-timer"* tell me once; "Lots of big, stable companies providing jobs, strong unions to keep the wages up, and you kids gettin' a better education than my generation ever could have dreamed of. Even put a man on the moon. I'd say we done pretty damn good. What an amazing country."

That was almost fourty years ago.

My, how the times have changed!

Dave

*"old timer" at that time would have been a retired steelman who'd worked the mills his entire life, and had seen America change ---for the better---in his lifetime.

His son will have seen them change for the worse. Probably doesn't work in that mill because it's gone.

We are now at a point in our history where for the first time the upcoming generation can't expect to have a better quality of life than their parents have. Hell, they can't really expect to have it as good. We have every president after Carter to thank for that, (yes, including Clinton), with an able assist from the Congress.

John

BlueStreak
01-09-2010, 11:59 PM
His son will have seen them change for the worse. Probably doesn't work in that mill because it's gone.

We are now at a point in our history where for the first time the upcoming generation can't expect to have a better quality of life than their parents have. Hell, they can't really expect to have it as good. We have every president after Carter to thank for that, (yes, including Clinton), with an able assist from the Congress.

John

That's exactly right. And with the mantra of press and pundit alike being "American workers are lazy and expensive!" being shouted out, incessantly, for all the world to hear. And our own workers turned against each other, conditioned to bitch about the others being overpaid. I shudder to think of what the future holds.

And what's worse is that I, for one don't believe that ANY of this is an accident, or a "natural function of the marketplace". Bullshit.
Someone saw the workerbees getting too empowered and affluent and decided it was time to kick the stool from underneath them. Turn them back into obedient serfs. And I wonder who would benefit the most from such a thing? Hmmmmm? I know, it's the unions. Nah, how does losing members benefit them? That makes no sense. Ah Ha! It's the queers! Naw, nope, that is just rediculous.

Could it be......the...corporat............Oooo, Ooooo, noooo!:eek: Banish the thought, Oooo, not good, no definately not good.:eek: Can't blame the businessman, no, not good.:eek: It'll make them angry.:eek: Angry businessmen not good, no. Definately not good!

Dave

Charles
01-10-2010, 12:21 AM
Let's look at this from a different approach.

You're the CEO of a multinational. Your duty is to the stockholders, who pay your salary.
If government regulations, or economic realities determine that you should move your operations overseas, wouldn't you be negilient in your duties by not doing so?

Believe it or not, multinationals ain't in the nice guy business, they're in the money making business. And if you have stocks, or a 401, or an IRA, you don't want some dumb assed "nice guy" looking after your money.

I, for one, am growing weary about people bitching about the "greedy businessman". Let's take a closer look at the parameters they are forced to operate under.

Chas

Boreas
01-10-2010, 12:38 AM
Let's look at this from a different approach.

You're the CEO of a multinational. Your duty is to the stockholders, who pay your salary.
If government regulations, or economic realities determine that you should move your operations overseas, wouldn't you be negilient in your duties by not doing so?

Believe it or not, multinationals ain't in the nice guy business, they're in the money making business. And if you have stocks, or a 401, or an IRA, you don't want some dumb assed "nice guy" looking after your money.

I, for one, am growing weary about people bitching about the "greedy businessman". Let's take a closer look at the parameters they are forced to operate under.

Chas

Living in Tidewater, Dave can tell you a lot more about Smithfield than I can but as far as I'm concerned they're the perfect example of the problem. Their hog operations were causing serious pollution problems in Virginia and North Carolina - serious problems - so when the EPA told them to clean up their act they moved the operation to Mexico, cheap labor, lenient safety and environmental regulations and lax enforcement.

Guess where the new strain of H1N1 came from!

John

Writewing
01-10-2010, 01:15 AM
Uhh, you mean stuff like "Chimpy McHaliburton Bushitler" ?!? And, last time I checked "Hussein" in the Community-Organiser-In-Chief's middle name..."Jug-Ears" is a reasonably apt description, I think its somewhat more respectable than "Alfred E. Neumann-Head", whom Barry also resembles...(grin)

With ears that big you would think he could hear his own bullshit, or his preachers racial rants:D

noonereal
01-10-2010, 06:46 AM
I, for one, am growing weary about people bitching about the "greedy businessman". Let's take a closer look at the parameters they are forced to operate under.




This is where I believe we disagree most.

or yeah and that Iraq war.

merrylander
01-10-2010, 07:35 AM
Let's look at this from a different approach.

You're the CEO of a multinational. Your duty is to the stockholders, who pay your salary.
If government regulations, or economic realities determine that you should move your operations overseas, wouldn't you be negilient in your duties by not doing so?

Believe it or not, multinationals ain't in the nice guy business, they're in the money making business. And if you have stocks, or a 401, or an IRA, you don't want some dumb assed "nice guy" looking after your money.

I, for one, am growing weary about people bitching about the "greedy businessman". Let's take a closer look at the parameters they are forced to operate under.

Chas

Interesting, so we admittedly are (or were) a consumer driven economy. Right, so let's beggar the consumer by putting him in the unemployment line. Even with your cheap Chinese product no one is buying, so you go bankrupt. Real big favor that you did for the shareholders.

As long as we use quarterly reporting and allow the Wall Street speculators to keep business "leader's" eyes on the end of the next quarter and not on the future of the business we are doing nothing more than having a race to the bottom. Sad but true.

merrylander
01-10-2010, 07:37 AM
With ears that big you would think he could hear his own bullshit, or his preachers racial rants:D

Typical republican, no ideas to offer, nothing constructive to propose, so lets resort to name calling.

Sandy G
01-10-2010, 08:09 AM
When my granfather ran things we kinda TRIED to get family members in there-Figuring there would be a collective knowlege base of printing, & of pride in their jobs & a stable workforce...And it was another source of pride w/HIM to see 2 or 3 generations of the same family working-And PROSPERING-in his plant. Our plant was kinda "started by the Union"-Long story- & while we had endless squabbles back & forth, in the end, everybody pretty much understood we all had to do what we had to do to get the work out, satisfy the CUSTOMER, & we DID it. Over & over, & we had a virtually unassailable reputation in our industry because of it. My granfather & the other owners of the business-There were only 5 or 6, IIRC-all understood, too, of the need to "Take care of business", they paid their people well for the day, but most of the money they made, they plowed back into the business, investing in ever-newer equipment. Over a roughly 10-year period, starting in '62, they bought a new gravure press every 18 months/2 years, & replaced their old obsolete, worn-out letterpresses that dated back to the late '30s & '40s, along w/bindery equipment, & the latest photomechanical cylinder making machinery. My granfather & his other owners certainly were not paupers, but OTOH, they would have been embarrassed by what some CEOs try to pay themselves nowadays. And I don't remember my Papaw EVER taking a "vacation"-He was "On duty" 24/7 for 50 years...His plant was his life. I also never heard a bad word ever spoken about him by anyone who worked for him-"Fritz" ALWAYS had time to sit & talk w/his "guys" about farming, work, whatever. He knew his guys, he knew their parents, their wives, their wives' people, their kids...In many cases, they all worked at the plant. Contrast that w/today, where the CEO prolly knows few, if any, of the people who work for him, & these pointy-headed "Management gurus" seem to think that's the way it oughta be....Shocking.

HatchetJack
01-10-2010, 08:28 AM
Good story Sandy. We need only look to our past to see the future.

merrylander
01-10-2010, 09:21 AM
Dave offered some insight into what is happening, the powers that be with their media goons started the civil war all over again, pitting the non-union south against union north. The media keps them so riled up that they can't see that they are shooting themselves in the foot.

BlueStreak
01-10-2010, 09:56 AM
When my granfather ran things we kinda TRIED to get family members in there-Figuring there would be a collective knowlege base of printing, & of pride in their jobs & a stable workforce...And it was another source of pride w/HIM to see 2 or 3 generations of the same family working-And PROSPERING-in his plant. Our plant was kinda "started by the Union"-Long story- & while we had endless squabbles back & forth, in the end, everybody pretty much understood we all had to do what we had to do to get the work out, satisfy the CUSTOMER, & we DID it. Over & over, & we had a virtually unassailable reputation in our industry because of it. My granfather & the other owners of the business-There were only 5 or 6, IIRC-all understood, too, of the need to "Take care of business", they paid their people well for the day, but most of the money they made, they plowed back into the business, investing in ever-newer equipment. Over a roughly 10-year period, starting in '62, they bought a new gravure press every 18 months/2 years, & replaced their old obsolete, worn-out letterpresses that dated back to the late '30s & '40s, along w/bindery equipment, & the latest photomechanical cylinder making machinery. My granfather & his other owners certainly were not paupers, but OTOH, they would have been embarrassed by what some CEOs try to pay themselves nowadays. And I don't remember my Papaw EVER taking a "vacation"-He was "On duty" 24/7 for 50 years...His plant was his life. I also never heard a bad word ever spoken about him by anyone who worked for him-"Fritz" ALWAYS had time to sit & talk w/his "guys" about farming, work, whatever. He knew his guys, he knew their parents, their wives, their wives' people, their kids...In many cases, they all worked at the plant. Contrast that w/today, where the CEO prolly knows few, if any, of the people who work for him, & these pointy-headed "Management gurus" seem to think that's the way it oughta be....Shocking.


Beautiful! And THAT'S how it should be, Sandy. That's what made American manufacturing what it once was, (And not really all that long ago.), sounds like your "Pawpaw" was a wonderful man. Imagine what we would have if our industry was still run by men such as this?

But, that's not what we have anymore. When I see my plant manager, he calls me "Buddy", he calls everyone "Buddy", it's not that there is anything offensive about the word, it's that he doesn't bother to remember anyones name. The man who owns our company, comes over from Italy once, maybe twice a year. And he ONLY meets with top level managers. The only reason I know what he looks like is because there's a picture in the lobby. I've never seen the man in person. The limosine arrives, the entourage goes upstairs, the entourage goes back out to the limo, the limo leaves.
When new rules are made they're made on the fly, and sometimes there isn't even any notice. You don't know you've broken a rule until they have you in the office. We haven't had a company party, picnic, or any such function in the last four years. The only time you hear from management, is when they are "disappointed", which is getting to be more and more frequent, unfortunately.

So, tell me; How is there supposed to be any "esprit de corps", any true loyalty?

Now, don't get me wrong, I like my job. To be fair, they do pay us well, good benefits, etc., and the work is challenging.

But I am old enough, as most of us here are, to remember the industrial behemoth our country once was.

The disagreement that we might have is in who is to blame. I see that the left may have gone to far. But I don't think it is right to heap ALL of the blame on them. I think there is more to it. I think that once our elected leaders started telling our corporate leaders it okay to be a greedy, selfish prick, we started down a very destructive path. And now that they've had a taste of the riches it brings........they will do and say anything to keep us in the corral.

Like I tell people; "If you think we're all overpaid, fine. You be the first to work harder and cheaper than a Chinaman. Go ahead Skippy, show us the way." This is usually met with a blank stare.

Dave

HatchetJack
01-10-2010, 11:00 AM
I still say we should blockade the ports and send their cheap ass shit back to
China. The only way we create a demand for jobs is through shortages.
We should give huge incentives for small businesses and put them in a
position to be successful. Things will cost more sure but we will be better off
for it. How much crap do we really need.

noonereal
01-10-2010, 12:31 PM
.
We should give huge incentives for small businesses and put them in a
position to be successful. .

Like that would ever happen.

Writewing
01-10-2010, 12:58 PM
When my granfather ran things we kinda TRIED to get family members in there-Figuring there would be a collective knowlege base of printing, & of pride in their jobs & a stable workforce...And it was another source of pride w/HIM to see 2 or 3 generations of the same family working-And PROSPERING-in his plant. Our plant was kinda "started by the Union"-Long story- & while we had endless squabbles back & forth, in the end, everybody pretty much understood we all had to do what we had to do to get the work out, satisfy the CUSTOMER, & we DID it. Over & over, & we had a virtually unassailable reputation in our industry because of it. My granfather & the other owners of the business-There were only 5 or 6, IIRC-all understood, too, of the need to "Take care of business", they paid their people well for the day, but most of the money they made, they plowed back into the business, investing in ever-newer equipment. Over a roughly 10-year period, starting in '62, they bought a new gravure press every 18 months/2 years, & replaced their old obsolete, worn-out letterpresses that dated back to the late '30s & '40s, along w/bindery equipment, & the latest photomechanical cylinder making machinery. My granfather & his other owners certainly were not paupers, but OTOH, they would have been embarrassed by what some CEOs try to pay themselves nowadays. And I don't remember my Papaw EVER taking a "vacation"-He was "On duty" 24/7 for 50 years...His plant was his life. I also never heard a bad word ever spoken about him by anyone who worked for him-"Fritz" ALWAYS had time to sit & talk w/his "guys" about farming, work, whatever. He knew his guys, he knew their parents, their wives, their wives' people, their kids...In many cases, they all worked at the plant. Contrast that w/today, where the CEO prolly knows few, if any, of the people who work for him, & these pointy-headed "Management gurus" seem to think that's the way it oughta be....Shocking.

Hmm, up till disablility took over I ran 6 color Heidelberg 40in oress then moved into mgmt when I was no longer able to get around so good. I made it up to a 3 state region mgr for a printing franchise. My father owned 7 small newspapers in my youthn aswell so I can relate!

merrylander
01-10-2010, 01:24 PM
When my granfather ran things we kinda TRIED to get family members in there-Figuring there would be a collective knowlege base of printing, & of pride in their jobs & a stable workforce...And it was another source of pride w/HIM to see 2 or 3 generations of the same family working-And PROSPERING-in his plant. Our plant was kinda "started by the Union"-Long story- & while we had endless squabbles back & forth, in the end, everybody pretty much understood we all had to do what we had to do to get the work out, satisfy the CUSTOMER, & we DID it. Over & over, & we had a virtually unassailable reputation in our industry because of it. My granfather & the other owners of the business-There were only 5 or 6, IIRC-all understood, too, of the need to "Take care of business", they paid their people well for the day, but most of the money they made, they plowed back into the business, investing in ever-newer equipment. Over a roughly 10-year period, starting in '62, they bought a new gravure press every 18 months/2 years, & replaced their old obsolete, worn-out letterpresses that dated back to the late '30s & '40s, along w/bindery equipment, & the latest photomechanical cylinder making machinery. My granfather & his other owners certainly were not paupers, but OTOH, they would have been embarrassed by what some CEOs try to pay themselves nowadays. And I don't remember my Papaw EVER taking a "vacation"-He was "On duty" 24/7 for 50 years...His plant was his life. I also never heard a bad word ever spoken about him by anyone who worked for him-"Fritz" ALWAYS had time to sit & talk w/his "guys" about farming, work, whatever. He knew his guys, he knew their parents, their wives, their wives' people, their kids...In many cases, they all worked at the plant. Contrast that w/today, where the CEO prolly knows few, if any, of the people who work for him, & these pointy-headed "Management gurus" seem to think that's the way it oughta be....Shocking.

When I joined Bell Canada in 1950 the first job I was offered was on the road with an installation crew. Now before I shrank to 5'-7" I was 5'-8" and about 145 pounds wringing wet. As a result of a breech birth I have never had full use of my left arm (although I hid that pretty well) so when the third level Wire Chief offered me a chance to have an interview with the manager of the Montreal Toll Office, George Bradley, I jumped at it.

He and I had quite a conversation and he finally picked the phone, called the Wire Chief and said "We can use him". so I was hired on the spot. Several months later as I was working on one of the boards when Mr. Bradley walked by and said "Hello Bob" and resumed the conversation where we had left it off. You won't see to damn much of that today. He was one real gentleman.

Boreas
01-10-2010, 01:26 PM
Hmm, up till disablility took over I ran 6 color Heidelberg 40in oress then moved into mgmt when I was no longer able to get around so good. I made it up to a 3 state region mgr for a printing franchise. My father owned 7 small newspapers in my youthn aswell so I can relate!

I hope you had a really good proof reader.

John

BlueStreak
01-10-2010, 05:16 PM
I still say we should blockade the ports and send their cheap ass shit back to
China. The only way we create a demand for jobs is through shortages.
We should give huge incentives for small businesses and put them in a
position to be successful. Things will cost more sure but we will be better off
for it. How much crap do we really need.


And you would find yourself battling your own party over this. They would decry it as "protectionist", which is often perceived as a Democratic principle.

Congratulations, Jack. Glenn Beck has just declared you a Liberal, and turned the ire of legions of wing-nuts against you.:D

Dave

Charles
01-10-2010, 06:28 PM
I hope you had a really good proof reader.

John

Did someone open the window?

Chas

HatchetJack
01-10-2010, 06:41 PM
I never claimed allegiance for either side. I'm an American and would like to
see things back like they were or head in a better direction. I lean right
because I believe people should work for a living and not be given a free ride
through life. We have to take care of the ones that need assistance but there
are far too many freeloaders in the system. As much as you libs would like
to loop me in with big oil and walmart, I aint on their side. I have always
pulled for the average american to have success. But they cant because
there are not enough people willing to work hard and too many nogooders
waiting for their check if they do. And on the other side our politicians have
greased their pockets with chinese money to keep us down. If that makes
me a wingnut and all the other names you guys would like to call me then
go ahead, whatever DAVE.

BlueStreak
01-10-2010, 07:09 PM
You know any "freeloaders" personally? I don't. All of my friends/family work. Some are in the military, some retired, but all have carried their own weight their entire adult lives.

Dave

HatchetJack
01-10-2010, 09:02 PM
Yeah DAVE I know a bunch of them. If you knew what I do, you would feel
differently.

Charles
01-10-2010, 09:40 PM
I really can't knock big oil. They provide us with a product we need, and provide quite a few good paying jobs. And they pay a lot of taxes. I'm sure they manipulate the market, but the market also manipulates them.

Walmart, well, they provide a lot of jobs, and I don't see them as evil. But they pretty much have become a monopoly. And they've killed off a lot of mom and pops.

I prefer to patronize K-mart, less crowded...and they sell all of that kewl Martha Fuckinstewart crap. Don't reckon Sandy shops there anymore.

Personally, I don't think the country will turn around. The politicians have bought into this free trade and sustainable living crapola, and the middle class is standing in their way. Besides, we don't need people anymore, we've got machines building machines.

We're being led down the prim rose path, and we're all too busy blaming the other guy to see where we're going.

Chas

BlueStreak
01-10-2010, 09:52 PM
Yeah DAVE I know a bunch of them. If you knew what I do, you would feel
differently.


Ah! A new thread!

Dave

merrylander
01-11-2010, 07:06 AM
I only ever knew one freeloader but I think after Clinton changed welfare she probably had to work. Saw one item in the news about some woman suing the hospital saying she had bee sterilized against her wishes. She had nine kids and wanted a tenth, and she was on welfare. Now each kid costs about $200,000 over 0 to 18 or 20 and welfare does not pay that kind of money. I guess she stood out because she was rare.

piece-itpete
01-11-2010, 08:24 AM
As we harken back to the days of yore :) consider that we all make more money (overall) even if it doesn't feel like it.

All these charts statistics etc don't tell the story. I like looking at the average size of new houses. (but darn it, can't find the $%*& thing). But you know what it'll show.

People tell me I (and others) are worse off. The I look around and see a society where their are more registered cars than drivers, 3-5 tvs in every house (along with cable - and high speed internet!), ...

You previous union guys - could you keep your machine running? Now, you can't, you have to wait for maintenance to turn a screw to get your output back in spec. If I worked at GM while I was sitting on a chair waiting for said maintenance while reading the newspaper, to do a task it would've taken me maybe 15 seconds to complete, I'd be commenting to my coworker that we'd better be getting our resumes in order.

Is that unionbashing? I have nothing against unions, only greedy ones. I enjoyed my short time with the Carpenter Brotherhood.

And I see a direct link between executives and unions - both would love to have a greater monopoly, so they could jack up prices.

I don't mean to offend everyone (which I think I'm doing) but quasi-communism didn't work, for the workers (try negotiating with the government as your boss! Good luck) and owners (who had everything they owned taken and then ruined), and protectionism was very likely the reason the Great Depression lasted until WW2.

Pete

Writewing
01-11-2010, 04:58 PM
I hope you had a really good proof reader.

John

You do understand that operating a press or mgnt has nothing to do with page setting or spell check correct?..... but follow me to another thread and contimue to insult me there aswell. HERE BOY.......HERE BOY........good dog!