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donquixote99
04-07-2014, 11:37 AM
Ever notice these marks around the 'waterline' on ships? They are called 'Plimsoll Lines," after the too-much-forgotten Samuel Plimsoll, who fought a big hairy political battle, in Britain, to get the first law mandating them passed.


http://passyworldofmathematics.com/Images/pwmImagesEight/ShipsThree550x401JPG.jpg


The lines are large, legible, and are important because they make it clear to anyone who sails on ships whether a ship is overloaded or not. That's crucial information, because overloaded ships sink easily. Lots of sailors used to get killed that way.

But why were the ships overloaded, you may ask. The answer is, 'on purpose.' The men who owned the ships, called 'capitalists,' found that when their ships got old, and became outdated and expensive to maintain, there was an easy solution. Send the ship out way overloaded, and hope it sinks. Then you get rid of the ship you don't want, and get a bunch of insurance money in return. The sailors called such older vessels 'coffin ships,' but that didn't bother the capitalists.

But it did bother Samuel Plimsoll. He noticed all the ships sinking, all the officers and sailors dying. He was the sort of person who gets upset over the big guys throwing away the lives of others, to make money. So as a Liberal member of Parliament, in 1867, he introduced a bill to have lines marked on ships to show if they are unsafely loaded. This would be an early example of regulation of industry by law.

So naturally, such a common-sense, life-saving measure passed immediately, right? Wrong. It turned out that a great many members of Parliament heeded the wishes of the shipowners, who adamantly opposed this regulation. (In fact, it turned out quite a few members of parliament actually were shipowners.)

You might think even capitalists would be ashamed to oppose this regulation, which imposed only nominal costs on honest, decent shipowners, and only threatened those who wished to benefit from insurance fraud, and murder. But they weren't.

Passing this regulation required years and years of struggle, but Samuel Plimsoll never gave up. Five years had passed when, in 1872, Plimsoll published a book, entitled Our Seamen, which mobilized public opinion on the issue. The result was that Plimsoll was able to get a Royal Commission of Inquiry, The Unseaworthy Ships' Commission. Endless argument and delay continued. Finally, in 1875, a government bill that addressed the issue was introduced, and action seemed imminent. But then the Conservative Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli announced the bill's withdrawal. Plimsoll's frustration erupted, he denounced other members of parliament as 'villains' and actually shook his fist in the Prime Minister's face. This breach of parliamentary decorum demanded an apology, but public opinion echoed Plimsoll's passion, and finally, in 1876, law was passed giving stringent shipping inspection powers to the Board of Trade, and mandating the placing of load lines on ships.

The fight had taken nine years, to secure a simple, low cost, life-saving, immensely-popular reform, because capitalists and conservatives had opposed it. The lesson: there is no opportunity for profit that capitalists will willingly relinquish, even if it involves fraud and murder. There is no regulation, however beneficial, that conservatives will not despise and oppose. The belief that the owning class is always right is exposed as a rank delusion. As it was in England in the 1870's, so it is here now. Conservatives and capitalists are what they are.

Our response must be to remember the heroic dedication of Samuel Plimsoll, to keep up our own dedication to unending struggle against the abuses of capital--and to watch out if those lines ever disappear from the sides of ships.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d6/SamuelPlimsoll.jpg
Samuel Plimsoll, 1824-1898



[researched on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Plimsoll) and elsewhere, after initially finding an outline of the story in the novel The Shipping News by E. Annie Prolux.]

Pio1980
04-07-2014, 11:54 AM
Aaaaand nothing has changed, see my avatar.

Boreas
04-07-2014, 12:13 PM
I saw a piece on RT yesterday describing appalling conditions (and high rents) in many London flats and bedsits. It's a truly disgraceful situation with inadequate, disgusting and even unsafe accommodations being leased without fear of consequence. Complain and you're evicted. So, you'd think that regulatory reform and enforcement would be a no-brainer, right? Well, it turns out that a lot of the politicians in London and in the UK Parliament are beholden to the real estate industry and many are themselves landlords.

John

donquixote99
04-07-2014, 12:30 PM
Despite the old saw about those who 'don't remember the past,' I think the past repeats whether you remember it or not. But I believe historical insight can still be very helpful in dealing with this sort of thing.

Tom Joad
04-07-2014, 01:27 PM
Despite the old saw about those who 'don't remember the past,' I think the past repeats whether you remember it or not. But I believe historical insight can still be very helpful in dealing with this sort of thing.


http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2012-04-10/titanic-crew-southampton-england/54134854/1

About 600 of Titanic's 900-strong crew were from Southampton. More than 500 people from the city lost their lives — a third of the total casualties. Most of them were waiters, sailors, stewards, engineers and, like Geer, stokers. Very few bodies were brought back to England.

"When Titanic went down, the shipping company the White Star Line stopped the crew's pay but charged families the freight costs of shipping the bodies back," says Valerie Ferguson, who volunteers at the cemetery along with Dunkason. "Most couldn't afford it, which is why we have so many memorials rather than graves."

merrylander
04-07-2014, 01:35 PM
People who complain about regulations are usually wealthyand 99% of wealthy people only want one thing - more wealth (and usually are not at all fussy about how they acquire it.)

BlueStreak
04-07-2014, 01:57 PM
'That's nonsense, Plimsoll! I know I can pack more cargo on that ship! You're just trying to bankrupt me, you COMMUNIST!!!!' :rolleyes:

donquixote99
04-08-2014, 07:36 AM
'That's nonsense, Plimsoll! I know I can pack more cargo on that ship! You're just trying to bankrupt me, you COMMUNIST!!!!' :rolleyes:

You think you're joking?

I find it interesting that everyone on my ignore list is ignoring this thread. Not that their comments would be worth anything, of course, but this suggests a certain tactical savvy and discipline to me. This thread is marked for death.

BlueStreak
04-08-2014, 09:44 AM
I'm making fun of the people he rightfully opposed, Don.

Dave

Dondilion
04-08-2014, 10:15 AM
Thanks for the information; I will remember Plimsoll.

donquixote99
04-08-2014, 10:15 AM
I'm making fun of the people he rightfully opposed, Don.

Dave

Oh I know, and nicely done too. :)

Needed a glyph of irony that time i guess....

noonereal
04-08-2014, 10:26 AM
We can have democracy in this country, or we can have great wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both. - Justice Louis D. Brandeis

donquixote99
04-08-2014, 10:29 AM
I note with sadness that they seem to have gotten to Kathleen Parker, often a rational voice on the right. Today's column is a big puff piece on the Koch's.

Tom Joad
04-08-2014, 11:24 AM
I find it interesting that everyone on my ignore list is ignoring this thread. Not that their comments would be worth anything, of course, but this suggests a certain tactical savvy and discipline to me. This thread is marked for death.

I've noticed that behavior pattern myself.

Not just on this thread either, but on others like it too.

MrPots
04-08-2014, 11:27 AM
You think you're joking?

I find it interesting that everyone on my ignore list is ignoring this thread. Not that their comments would be worth anything, of course, but this suggests a certain tactical savvy and discipline to me. This thread is marked for death.

Your un-erring insight and power to the truth is indeed daunting.

Pio1980
04-08-2014, 02:54 PM
De-regulation will lead to environmental responsibility, fairly-compensated safe gratifying full-employment, and safe products, medication, and food for all, universal sustainable prosperity!!! How could we have possibly missed the obvious, just turn your trust over to them.
I've got it, let's all be compliant uncomplaining job-zombies in the new-old Koch-topian feudalistic industrial State and live the dream!!!

merrylander
04-08-2014, 04:20 PM
I note with sadness that they seem to have gotten to Kathleen Parker, often a rational voice on the right. Today's column is a big puff piece on the Koch's.

She has been getting a little shrill of late, this is not the first.

donquixote99
04-08-2014, 04:27 PM
She has been getting a little shrill of late, this is not the first.

Yes, I'd noticed. Somethings going on with her.

BlueStreak
04-08-2014, 05:29 PM
De-regulation will lead to environmental responsibility, fairly-compensated safe gratifying full-employment, and safe products, medication, and food for all, universal sustainable prosperity!!! How could we have possibly missed the obvious, just turn your trust over to them.
I've got it, let's all be compliant uncomplaining job-zombies in the new-old Koch-topian feudalistic industrial State and live the dream!!!

Exactly. I love it when these people express incredulity with a "liberal" placing too much trust in government, then they espouse the idea of turning a blind eye to the shenanigans of the business world.

1). Do they not see that power is power and prone to abuse regardless of who holds it?

2). Do they not see the link between the public and private sector power in this country that grows stronger and more obvious by the day?

Dave

bobabode
04-08-2014, 06:19 PM
I note with sadness that they seem to have gotten to Kathleen Parker, often a rational voice on the right. Today's column is a big puff piece on the Koch's.

She has been getting a little shrill of late, this is not the first.

Jenghazi Rubin is always good for chuckle, particularly the comments section, when she stops bloviating about the black dude in the White House. :rolleyes:

Tom Joad
04-08-2014, 10:39 PM
De-regulation will lead to environmental responsibility, fairly-compensated safe gratifying full-employment, and safe products, medication, and food for all, universal sustainable prosperity!!!

There are people that actually believe that shit.

A disturbingly large number of them.

donquixote99
04-09-2014, 12:29 AM
There are people that actually believe that shit.

A disturbingly large number of them.

Well, if you don't enjoy a wonderful life, it's your own fault for not being competitive enough in the labor market. And if the market doesn't want you, you're worthless, so your fate doesn't matter.

For the market is the measure of all things.

Pio1980
04-09-2014, 07:07 AM
Well, if you don't enjoy a wonderful life, it's your own fault for not being competitive enough in the labor market. And if the market doesn't want you, you're worthless, so your fate doesn't matter.

For the market is the measure of all things.

Channeling Ayn Rand, are we?

donquixote99
04-09-2014, 07:29 AM
Channeling Ayn Rand, are we?

Uh-huh. They deny market-worship, saying 'human thriving' is the ultimate value, but actually only those who 'deserve' to get to thrive, and the 'market,' supposedly, determines what you deserve.

Tom Joad
04-09-2014, 11:45 AM
Channeling Ayn Rand, are we?

It really is easy to get into right wing character.

You just turn off the thinking part of your brain and let those raw animal instincts flow.

Pio1980
04-09-2014, 04:08 PM
It really is easy to get into right wing character.

You just turn off the thinking part of your brain and let those raw animal instincts flow.

Like Paul Ryan (speaking of channeling Ayn Rand)?

Tom Joad
04-09-2014, 05:35 PM
Like Paul Ryan (speaking of channeling Ayn Rand)?

He's channeling a little Richard Widmark too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oesSyvh76g

nailer
07-15-2014, 05:35 PM
Well, if you don't enjoy a wonderful life, it's your own fault for not being competitive enough in the labor market. And if the market doesn't want you, you're worthless, so your fate doesn't matter.

For the market is the measure of all things.

Sadly this is the view of many Americans and per them it's unpatriotic to think otherwise.

BlueStreak
07-15-2014, 06:14 PM
I love the ones who staunchly defend this crap..........even though they are the ones that are losing.

Personally, I like the idea that it's a form of Stockholm Syndrome. They know they're being screwed, but feel they must show the boss love and appease him with every new humiliation.....or it'll get even worse...............

Beyond that, all I can figure is that too many of us really are dumb enough to think that appeasing unbridled greed actually leads to prosperity for us proles.

Dave

merrylander
07-16-2014, 07:16 AM
The one thing the righties do that truly amuses me is when they accuse liberals of being softies and emotional when they are the emotional ones. They are easily triggered by certain code words. Say 'amnesty' and the froth at the mouth. Say 'welfare queen' and you can't shut them up for four hours. Say 'liberal media' and they scream Washington Post, yet take a good look at the OpEd page - Charles Krauthammer, Michael Gerson, Charles Lane, George Will, Kathleen Parker, Ruth Marcus oh yes the token Liberal E.J. Dionne.:rolleyes:

donquixote99
08-03-2020, 10:53 PM
It worth recalling this story as 45's minions rush to cancel all the regulations they can.

donquixote99
08-28-2020, 12:01 PM
People with too much unchecked power always use it corruptly. This means they act selfishly, and pay no heed if their actions are destructive to others. This applies to capitalists, who wield tremendous and generally decisive power in our society. Capitalists control government through their power to invest or to not invest, to open or close workplaces, to expand economic activity or contract it. They in general get the laws they want and veto the ones they don't. It takes exceptional public pressure or necessity to overcome the structural power of capitalists. You weren't taught this in civics class, were you?

The problem is that other institutions with too much unchecked power likewise tend to behave badly. The police are a current example but government in general can go this route. The historic problem has been that a government with enough power to break the grip of the capitalists has become totalitarian and oppressive itself. The need is to balance the powers so each can check the other, so none becomes corrupt.

nailer
08-28-2020, 12:41 PM
What you're basically describing has been part of the human condition since the beginning.

donquixote99
08-28-2020, 12:47 PM
What you're basically describing has been part of the human condition since the beginning.

In a sense. But 'the human condition' in practice hasn't been all one thing. Some conditions have been a lot better than others. So it's useful to try to figure out what can better the lot of the most people.

nailer
08-28-2020, 01:49 PM
Liberal Western Democracy has generated our best condition to date and capitalism is a prime component.

donquixote99
08-28-2020, 03:57 PM
Liberal Western Democracy has generated our best condition to date and capitalism is a prime component.

Would never say different. Recall that I am arguing for checks on capitalism, not for its abolition.* but I'd say you are again using a big abstract term to paper over the real issues. "Liberal Western democracy" varies lot at different places and times. These days the US is coming in about last among the liberal Western democracies, in a lot of measures. I think our system needs a major refurb and repair job.

* this, BTW, means I'm not a soci alist.

donquixote99
08-28-2020, 04:55 PM
About last: saw a thing today rating countries on some combination of things adding up to 'best place to raise a kid.' US came in at #34.