Veitnam and teh TET offensive

[JCricket]

Hey Folks, I had to step away for the last week. I have been helping my son with a presentation/history assignment on Vietnam and the TET offensive.

I was wondering if I could get some comments and thoughts from those of you who are old enough to have been there and remember this.

I understand the coordinated attack and how the VC and the North Vietnamese had hope to quickly overthrow the south and thus win the support of the south. Supposedly, as I have read, their hopes were that the South would rise up against us and join the North.

I also understand how this led to the escalation in 1968, despite that we had quelled the attempts of the VC/NV in a matter of hours to within a few weeks of the attacks. Finally, as I have read, the American people and the generals in command, realized that the VC/NV had the ability to carry on a long drawn out war of guerilla tactics, that we would likely never win. This is what is actually being taught, if I understand correctly.

We have also covered the Gulf of Tonken too.

A few things I did not cover yet and was wondering about. What was the "civil war" in Vietnam about? Was it a civil war? Was it an invasion from China and Russia, or did they just happen to support the north? When di this "civil war" or invasion begin? Were there any American influences that caused this war or invasion to happen? Was this related to Korea at all?

I'll dig more and learn more, just thought I would share what I was doing and ask for some first hand opinions if possible.

Thanks in advance,
Mark

[bobabode]

Hi Mark, See the French Indochina war and colonialism in SE Asia in general for the roots of it.

I wasn't old enough to be drafted and I sure as hell wouldn't have volunteered but then I'm a pinko soshulist. ;)

[Tom Joad]

I was in Vietnam later.

From Aug. 1970-Aug 1971.

But as an REMF medic with two stripes on my arm I didn't have a clue what the fuck was going on.

[4-2-7]

I was in Vietnam later.

From Aug. 1970-Aug 1971.

But as an REMF medic with two stripes on my arm I didn't have a clue what the fuck was going on.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj5k6toS7i8

http://www.katzy.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/link.gif

[donquixote99]

No first hand knowledge available. But I can recommend the small book of a man with first hand experience, tremendous intellectual honesty, and, unlike most Lieutenants in the US Army at the time, the ability to speak Vietnamese. Check out "War Comes to Long An" by Jeffrey Rice. If pressed for time, concentrate on chapter 4.

Added note: this relates basically to the "What was the "civil war" in Vietnam about? Was it a civil war? " question.

[Tom Joad]

No first hand knowledge available. But I can recommend the small book of a man with first hand experience, tremendous intellectual honesty, and, unlike most Lieutenants in the US Army at the time, the ability to speak Vietnamese. Check out "War Comes to Long An" by Jeffrey Rice. If pressed for time, concentrate on chapter 4.

"Sand in the Wind" by Robert Roth was pretty good too.

http://www.amazon.com/Sand-Wind-Robert-Roth/dp/0523426011/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

[icenine]

It was actually a tactical defeat for the Viet Cong. However, Americans watching the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese infiltrating Saigon on TV realized there was no light at the end of the tunnel.

This was the beginning of the end. A very long, costly end that cost way too many American lives.

If you want to understand Vietnam read Graham Greene's The Quiet American written 10 years before we arrived in Da Nang. The Best and the Brightest by David Halberstam and Frances Fitzgerald's Fire In The Lake are very good books.

google the term "Mandate of Heaven"

[bobabode]

The most trusted reporter in America, Unca Walter Cronkite's reports from 'Nam during and after put him squarely on Nixon's 'Enemies List'.

'That's the way it is' Walter had every ear in the country back in those days and he was brutal in his own inimitable way about the progress, prospects and ultimate failure of our involvement in Vietnam.

We probably have the largest concentration of Vietnamese immigrants here in Orange county California. That old devil, General Nguyen Cao Ky lived here in Westminster until his death, IIRC.

BTW Mark, I lived in the DC suburbs from '68 to '80. My friends and I were downtown protesting at most every anti war demonstration. May Day 1970 was particularly interesting. We called the D.C. Mounted Park Police 'Cossacks' and the regular cops 'fascist storm troopers', deservedly so.

[Dondilion]

The French were the colonial masters in Viet Nam. There was a rebellion against them led by the Vietnamese communists. The Vietnamese against all odds and with true grit surrounded a French major strong point Dien Bien Phu and forced them to surrender. This was a major humiliation for a western power.

The Americans were pissed, especially the American Secretary of State Foster
Dulles. He believed in the domino theory: that if Viet Nam went communist the rest of neighboring countries would fall.

That is how the Americans got sucked in. They believe that they could do much better than the French and misread the historical anti foreigner nature of the Vietnamese people.

Do research on
Dien Bien Phu

and John Foster Dulles: He was a very powerful Secretary of State, a staunch anti communists and so was determine to replace the French.

[JCricket]

Lots of EXCELLENT tips and info here. Obviously going to take me some time, but I will give a good look at all of this.

Any opinions on Ho Chi Min? I think he was the guy in the north that started the communist movement in "Indo-China" at the time.

I thought I read he was kind of brutal.

[Pio1980]

The French were the colonial masters in Viet Nam. There was a rebellion against them led by the Vietnamese communists. The Vietnamese against all odds and with true grit surrounded a French major strong point Dien Bien Phu and forced them to surrender. This was a major humiliation for a western power.

The Americans were pissed, especially the American Secretary of State Foster
Dulles. He believed in the domino theory: that if Viet Nam went communist the rest of neighboring countries would fall.

That is how the Americans got sucked in. They believe that they could do much better than the French and misread the historical anti foreigner nature of the Vietnamese people.

Do research on
Dien Bien Phu

and John Foster Dulles: He was a very powerful Secretary of State, a staunch anti communists and so was determine to replace the French.

For some reason this topical throwback came to mind, must be my age.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgTN13_bfXQ

[one1]

Lots of EXCELLENT tips and info here. Obviously going to take me some time, but I will give a good look at all of this.

Any opinions on Ho Chi Min? I think he was the guy in the north that started the communist movement in "Indo-China" at the time.

I thought I read he was kind of brutal.

Ho Chii Minh Wanted a Unified Vietnam,the reason the whole thing got to were it was,French Had made it a colony,Minh wanted forieners out simple just like every other incursion by modern Powers.Humble beginings blown into a majar war.I dont think Colonazation is done any moreexcept by America.

[one1]

There is volumes of Information Just take with a grain of salt,pick through the propaganda both sides have spun over time.

[Pio1980]

The historical purpose of colonization seems to have been for the appropriation of resources to benefit primarily the colonizing nation. Once the natives figure out that their stuff is going away and they aren't getting much other than oppression out of the deal, things go very sour.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[one1]

I have never known Colonies to benefit from the Colonizers.YietNam Was the last test ofthat Idealogy of priniples,America In its generrousity just wanted to set up a Proper goverment for the South vietmese People,WINK<WINK>

[BlueStreak]

I was in Vietnam later.

From Aug. 1970-Aug 1971.

But as an REMF medic with two stripes on my arm I didn't have a clue what the fuck was going on.

Honesty. I like that.

[donquixote99]

Sometimes decisions are made for illogical reasons, eg, Dulles taking up the White Man's Burden after the French dropped it. Sometimes they are made for face-saving reasons, at each juncture where it was either escalate or admit the whole thing was a bad show, the Presidents and Generals went for escalate. And sometimes for money reasons; the MIC didn't actually care if the war made any sense or not, as a war....

[JCricket]

Sometimes decisions are made for illogical reasons, eg, Dulles taking up the White Man's Burden after the French dropped it. Sometimes they are made for face-saving reasons, at each juncture where it was either escalate or admit the whole thing was a bad show, the Presidents and Generals went for escalate. And sometimes for money reasons; the MIC didn't actually care if the war made any sense or not, as a war.........

as long as they were making money on it.

Finished it for you. And yeah, that is the problem with most wars these days.

I did some quick reading. Originally it was indo-china, a French colony. The Germans capturing France in WWII "destabilized" the French colony. This brought in the Japanese as well. Further, it allowed the colonies a little freedom, due to lack of political control by the French.
This is a highly paraphrased condensed version of what I read. I think I am fairly close though.

During this time, the countries of Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, and Thailand became countries. The Vietnamese, in the north had declared there independence and the Soviet Union and China recognized them. This was a communist government. However, I also read it was brutal. Murdering something like 200,000 people for being "land owners". The combination of the red scare and these factors is what led Eisenhower and then ultimately the people of the US to support the south.

Does this sound correct?

[Oerets]

I remember watching it on the news with my Father. Who just returned from from over there. He was on a helicopter carrier full of Marines. He take was the military had their hands tied by politicians. The military knew where they NVA were but for whatever reasons could not take them out. Had to wait to be attacked most of the time. Retired because of the discuss with what he experienced.

When my draft number came up a three on my 18th birthday, he told me to wait for the letter. Not to jump the gun and join up right away. Guess what never got the letter, didn't ask way either.

I remember one story of them getting the wounded out of a valley. He said there were hundreds of dead VC armed with crossbows spears and knifes. The plan was to get weapons from our guys. Had no idea of what air power and automatic weapons were capable of. Wrapped themselves up like mummies and carried ladders into battle also. He also said they were HOPPED UP on DRUGS!



Barney

[Dondilion]

as long as they were making money on it.

Finished it for you. And yeah, that is the problem with most wars these days.

I did some quick reading. Originally it was indo-china, a French colony. The Germans capturing France in WWII "destabilized" the French colony. This brought in the Japanese as well. Further, it allowed the colonies a little freedom, due to lack of political control by the French.
This is a highly paraphrased condensed version of what I read. I think I am fairly close though.

During this time, the countries of Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, and Thailand became countries. The Vietnamese, in the north had declared there independence and the Soviet Union and China recognized them. This was a communist government. However, I also read it was brutal. Murdering something like 200,000 people for being "land owners". The combination of the red scare and these factors is what led Eisenhower and then ultimately the people of the US to support the south.

Does this sound correct?

Dulles was the power house not Eisenhower. He was determine to go in whether communists were benign or brutal. He was a firm believer in the
Domino Theory.

Here is a short speech by Dulles at the fall of Dien Bien Phu.
It is indicative of his determination.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1DMMZzYADc

[Tom Joad]

the MIC didn't actually care if the war made any sense or not, as a war....


There it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDXIB6lrB30

[piece-itpete]

From all I have read, our leaders at the time believed in the domino theory right or wrong.

Pete

[Pio1980]

From all I have read, our leaders at the time believed in the domino theory right or wrong.

Pete

As do our adversaries re NATO and Eastern Europe. Nobody wins a fantasy strategy either way.

Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

[Tom Joad]

From all I have read, our leaders at the time believed in the domino theory right or wrong.

Pete

Well there you go then!

That makes it all worth while doesn't it?

http://i843.photobucket.com/albums/zz359/Dog_of_the_Earth/Thanksgiving-in-Potomac-2009-111-R1.jpg (http://s843.photobucket.com/user/Dog_of_the_Earth/media/Thanksgiving-in-Potomac-2009-111-R1.jpg.html)

[piece-itpete]

I did say right or wrong. The communist threat was real, but was Vietnam right? You'd have to ask LBJ. If there were dominos it certainly stopped them though.

Pete

[Tom Joad]

I did say right or wrong. The communist threat was real, but was Vietnam right? You'd have to ask LBJ. If there were dominos it certainly stopped them though.

Pete

I guess you won't be throwing away your medals then huh Pete?

[piece-itpete]

I'd have to consult with Kerry on that one :o Though I wouldn't put my old Indian Guide medallion on the same level.

Pete

[JCricket]

From what I have read, Vietnam resulted as a country, and then later as a conflict, as a direct result of WWII. Originally a colony of France referred to Indochina. Germany captures France, Indochina becomes destabilized, the Japanese come in, France regains control, Indochina has broken down into four countries. Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, Thailand. Vietnam has declared their independence and has been recognized as a sovereign nation by both China and the Soviet union. The leader of Vietnam declares land owners as criminals and executes approximately 200,000(IIRC). Thus causing a civil war. We fear the red scare, the dominoe theory, and also want to help the people being execute.

Here is the problem. how do we help without declaring war on the Soviet union and China?

What a mess it turned out to be. I do believe the leaders(mostly anyway) at the time, Eisenhower, congress and the American people, had good intentions. Then the gulf of Tonken, LBJ, and the MIC got there teeth in it.

That is a very high level paraphrase, and I am not sure my details are accurate. As stated earlier, there are VOLUMES of material on this subject. Trying to sift through it and makes sense of it and to be sure it is accurate takes a lot of time, I think this is the jist of it though.

[Pio1980]

From what I have read, Vietnam resulted as a country, and then later as a conflict, as a direct result of WWII. Originally a colony of France referred to Indochina. Germany captures France, Indochina becomes destabilized, the Japanese come in, France regains control, Indochina has broken down into four countries. Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, Thailand. Vietnam has declared their independence and has been recognized as a sovereign nation by both China and the Soviet union. The leader of Vietnam declares land owners as criminals and executes approximately 200,000(IIRC). Thus causing a civil war. We fear the red scare, the dominoe theory, and also want to help the people being execute.

Here is the problem. how do we help without declaring war on the Soviet union and China?

What a mess it turned out to be. I do believe the leaders(mostly anyway) at the time, Eisenhower, congress and the American people, had good intentions. Then the gulf of Tonken, LBJ, and the MIC got there teeth in it.

That is a very high level paraphrase, and I am not sure my details are accurate. As stated earlier, there are VOLUMES of material on this subject. Trying to sift through it and makes sense of it and to be sure it is accurate takes a lot of time, I think this is the jist of it though.

Road to hell and all that.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Dondilion]

From what I have read, Vietnam resulted as a country, and then later as a conflict, as a direct result of WWII. Originally a colony of France referred to Indochina. Germany captures France, Indochina becomes destabilized, the Japanese come in, France regains control, Indochina has broken down into four countries. Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam, Thailand. Vietnam has declared their independence and has been recognized as a sovereign nation by both China and the Soviet union. The leader of Vietnam declares land owners as criminals and executes approximately 200,000(IIRC). Thus causing a civil war. We fear the red scare, the dominoe theory, and also want to help the people being execute.

Here is the problem. how do we help without declaring war on the Soviet union and China?

What a mess it turned out to be. I do believe the leaders(mostly anyway) at the time, Eisenhower, congress and the American people, had good intentions. Then the gulf of Tonken, LBJ, and the MIC got there teeth in it.

That is a very high level paraphrase, and I am not sure my details are accurate. As stated earlier, there are VOLUMES of material on this subject. Trying to sift through it and makes sense of it and to be sure it is accurate takes a lot of time, I think this is the jist of it though.

In all of this I believe we woefully underestimated the grit of Vietnamese people to rid themselves of foreign occupiers.

We looked and saw a thin, small guy in sandals and straw hat and said this
should be easy.

[icenine]

In all of this I believe we woefully underestimated the grit of Vietnamese people to rid themselves of foreign occupiers.

We looked and saw a thin, small guy in sandals and straw hat and said this
should be easy.

The mistake we made was trying to be like the French under Napoleon, who tried to export the French Revolution across Europe. We were trying to bring the New Deal and Sears to a country that wanted to rid itself of all foreign colonial powers. Ho Chi Minh was Communist but more importantly a nationalist.

I am sure the Vietminh under Ho killed many thousands of Vietnamese political opponents. But so did we.

[donquixote99]

In all of this I believe we woefully underestimated the grit of Vietnamese people to rid themselves of foreign occupiers.

We looked and saw a thin, small guy in sandals and straw hat and said this
should be easy.

See the epilogue to the movie 'We Were Soldiers,' where Mel Gibson as Lt. Col Hal Moore figures that out. Having studied the diary of a Vietnamese soldier he himself killed (in the movie at least), Gibson's character makes the pithy observation, "He had a life worth living, and he threw it away in an instant." The Colonel thus realizes that they were indeed up against the committed nationalism you mention, and that the US was committing itself to a war that could not be won.

But whether the real Hal Moore reached that thought at that time or not, it certainly made no difference.

[Dondilion]

The mistake we made was trying to be like the French under Napoleon, who tried to export the French Revolution across Europe. We were trying to bring the New Deal and Sears to a country that wanted to rid itself of all foreign colonial powers. Ho Chi Minh was Communist but more importantly a nationalist.

I am sure the Vietminh under Ho killed many thousands of Vietnamese political opponents. But so did we.

"so did we" re political opponents, is usually buried in our history books.

Of special note: the president of South Viet Nam, Diem, after he fell out of favor with US, was assassinated as a result of a President Kennedy backed coup.

[donquixote99]

The mistake we made was trying to be like the French under Napoleon, who tried to export the French Revolution across Europe. We were trying to bring the New Deal and Sears to a country that wanted to rid itself of all foreign colonial powers. Ho Chi Minh was Communist but more importantly a nationalist.

I am sure the Vietminh under Ho killed many thousands of Vietnamese political opponents. But so did we.

Our motives were not so idealistic. Just our rationalizations were.

In that, at least, we were indeed quite like Napoleon.

[icenine]

Our motives were not so idealistic. Just our rationalizations were.

In that, at least, we were indeed quite like Napoleon.

Yes

I remember when I was kid most of the people in my church were subscribers to the domino theory...we meant well. But the consequences were terrible.


Is LBJ guilty? Yes...but the vast majority of Americans did not really oppose the war. I believe Kennedy and Nixon on either ends were operating in the same cold war paradigm. When the nation began to realize the quagmire it was we already had a 500,000 troops there. I have not googled it but I think the number of dead on the Vietnamese side for the 10 years we where there was about a million.

Tonkin and the insertion of thousands of troops without really telling America about it was probably the worst thing LBJ did.


anyone here remember the Johnson Administration and the build up of the war?

were Americans aware of Da Nang in 65?

Boreas you there?