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HarmanKardon
06-07-2014, 01:06 AM
90 years ago the barking monster wrote his book "Mein Kampf". It was 1924, nine years before the beginning of his dictatorship. Everybody could read now about his two goals: extinction of the jews and world domination. Sensitive intellecuals like Hermann Hesse, Kurt Tucholsky and many others had a presentment of WWII already then and expressed their warnings in books and newspapers.

1933 the barking monster started his dictatorship and some five years later, around 1938 everybody who wanted to see it could see clearly what would happen pretty soon. 1939 the catastrophe begun by the ambush on Poland. 1940 France was next in line. And so on and on...

My question now: Why didn't intervene nations like the United States or Britain earlier in order to stop the massive insanity, this totally destructive war of conquest?

icenine
06-07-2014, 02:13 AM
In 1924 no one in the rest of the world took him seriously. Why did millions of Germans vote for him in the elections of 1933? His book had been out for 10 years by then.

I would say that the technical answer was that until he started to threaten the stability of Europe and the English dominance (and by proxy our control) of the Northern Atlantic sea lanes no one outside of European continent was too concerned about him.

HarmanKardon
06-07-2014, 03:43 AM
[QUOTE=icenine;223294]In 1924 no one in the rest of the world took him seriously. Why did millions of Germans vote for him in the elections of 1933? His book had been out for 10 years by then.

The barking monster was a brilliant agitator and he promised jobs for milliions of unemployed people, unemploymennt was a huge problem in Germany in the early thirties. The other political parties then were weak and devoid of lacking in ideas. These are some reasons why he was so successful.

Oerets
06-07-2014, 05:04 AM
With the devastation with the aftermath of WWI, then add the economic collapse in the twenties soon there after. Countries were looking inward at their own problems to solve. Add to this the common belief in the good in man, most thought little would come of or could not even think his words had these consequences.

Just like today little action will be undertaken till after the fact. Then the same questions are asked as to why it took so long. This could be as simple as the inability to reach a consensus on a perceived "" what if "".

Or of naysayers who just look at their tax dollars and in not wanting to pay more stop any action! Very easy to do when the populace of the country is across the world and they are in need a better jobs. All problems are local is how it seems to work out most of the time.



Barney

HarmanKardon
06-07-2014, 06:10 AM
But something like the Third Reich + WWII could probably never happen again due to the global exchange of information by the internet in a world we call the Global Village. At least I hope it will never happen again.

merrylander
06-07-2014, 06:11 AM
He was elected partly because Clemanceau had demanded such reparations that it, along with the depression destroyed the German economy. Ask any stamp collector about the German stamps of the period, surcrged with astonomical numbers. You could get your wages in a wheelbarrow and by the time you got to market it would barely buy a loaf of bread. My neighbour back in quebec told me how he and his buddies worked on a farm just for the food.

America was looking inward and in Britain no one wanted war and there were even some who thought the destruction of the Jews was a good thing. And we got war only because Britain (and Near as I recall France) had a pact with Poland.

Because France was on good terms withBelgium the Maginot line ended at the France Belgium border so they simply swept around it.

In those days military intelligence was an oxymoron hence Dieppe and the loss of so many Canadians. It was supposed to be a sandy beach instead theit tanks faced a pebbled beach and a three foot seawall and so they were slaughtered.

All in all it was a bloody mess and we only won by destroying tthe factories Ruhr valley dam and cutting off fuel supplies.

HarmanKardon
06-07-2014, 06:16 AM
Thanks Rob. BTW in fall 1923 you had to pay some millions Reichsmark for an egg and in the end of this development in November even billions.

merrylander
06-07-2014, 06:21 AM
Chris I shoul photocopy one of the pages in my German stamp collectio where you can see a simple stamp surcharged billonen. I have an excellent collection of West Germany thanks to a lady friend Ruthild from Nurnburg, may she rest with the angels, she was killed in an accident on the Autobahn.

HarmanKardon
06-07-2014, 06:22 AM
Good heavens, so the numbers were almost too big for the stamps then... :eek:

merrylander
06-07-2014, 06:36 AM
Good heavens, so the numbers were almost too big for the stamps then... :eek:

Well there would be a figure in front of the word but the mere fact that it would take billonen to mail a letter I suspect few were because those stamps are mostly available mint (unused) and are more or less worthless. But if you can find a used one they are quite valuable to collectors.

HarmanKardon
06-07-2014, 06:50 AM
Two decades ago I found around a dozen bills from fall 1923 in the attic and I threw them away. I would not do that a second time.

merrylander
06-07-2014, 07:15 AM
Here is some of the story

http://www.hobbizine.com/page0014.html

ebacon
06-07-2014, 07:56 AM
I would have to agree with Oerets. If I put myself in the shoes of a 1920s/30s US citizen, I imagine that domestic economic issues would be at the forefront of my concerns. As for the politicians of the era, I don't know their motivations for what they did or did not do. A few things that I have thought about over the years include the newness of genetic and economic sciences at the time. On the genetic front we had comparisons of races as to who could run the fastest, jump the highest, etc. On the economic front we saw a movement away from a gold standard to a more centrally managed economy. Fascinations with those sciences may have led US politicians to sympathize with the barking monster.

A good number of Germans also were behind him. Their economic situation was so dire that they looked up to his strong leadership. When times are bad enough any plan out sounds good. U.S. politicians may have wanted to take a hands off approach and let the Germans fix things how they saw fit.

Having said that, I am no expert on the subject. Just thinking out loud based on my limited reading, TV watching, and tour of a concentration camp museum.

Pio1980
06-07-2014, 07:57 AM
Anti-semitism was fairly common everywhere tho not to the degree of AH and those that attached themselves to him thru their common prejudice. One only has to look at the shameful St Louis debacle to see the lack of sympathy, and even Justice Felix Frankfurter refused to believe the stories about Germany as being too outrageous for a "civilized" Western-oriented society. Henry Ford contributed to the horror with his rabid anti-semitism, adding to AHs propaganda armormentarium with his promotion and (re) publication of the fraudulent screed "The International Jew".

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

ebacon
06-07-2014, 07:58 AM
Two decades ago I found around a dozen bills from fall 1923 in the attic and I threw them away. I would not do that a second time.

I still have some somewhere. I think they are 500,000 Reichsmark scheins. Need to dig them out.

During the 1970s even 5 DM was a lot of money for a kid. 500,000 DM was like being a millionaire. :D

merrylander
06-07-2014, 08:05 AM
There were some stamps issued during the occupation and later by the newly formed government that are quite valuable, I have some but unfortunately not all.

HarmanKardon
06-07-2014, 08:28 AM
Thanks for the link Rob. I am familiar with the layout of the stamps because I have a lot of letters together with the envelopes from my ancestors from that time, they looked pretty similar for decades.

Today we know that everything influences everything, everything is connected with everything concerning politics and economy. 75 years ago the situation was different but anyway the nations should have realized earlier that the destructive behaviour of the Third Reich was not just its own business but that some time it would threaten the whole world.

merrylander
06-07-2014, 08:42 AM
Thanks for the link Rob. I am familiar with the layout of the stamps because I have a lot of letters together with the envelopes from my ancestors from that time, they looked pretty similar for decades.

Then I would drop in on a reputable stamp dealer and get an idea of their value

Today we know that everything influences everything, everything is connected with everything concerning politics and economy. 75 years ago the situation was different but anyway the nations should have realized earlier that the destructive behaviour of the Third Reich was not just its own business but that some time it would threaten the whole world.

Because it was easier to play osterich and bury their heads in the sand.

Dondilion
06-07-2014, 08:43 AM
90 years ago the barking monster wrote his book "Mein Kampf". It was 1924, nine years before the beginning of his dictatorship. Everybody could read now about his two goals: extinction of the jews and world domination. Sensitive intellecuals like Hermann Hesse, Kurt Tucholsky and many others had a presentment of WWII already then and expressed their warnings in books and newspapers.

1933 the barking monster started his dictatorship and some five years later, around 1938 everybody who wanted to see it could see clearly what would happen pretty soon. 1939 the catastrophe begun by the ambush on Poland. 1940 France was next in line. And so on and on...

My question now: Why didn't intervene nations like the United States or Britain earlier in order to stop the massive insanity, this totally destructive war of conquest?

1 The French were greedy. Yes they had suffered the most but still their
reparation demand was over the top and brought ruination to post WW1
Germany. In such a climate Hitler had a sympathetic population.

2 There was a fear of the Bolsheviks by the ruling class in Germany and
Hitler endeared himself to that class by effectively countering the Bolsheviks in the streets with his Brown Shirts.

3 Anti Jewish rhetoric was always part of the European political and social
scene especially at times of economic hardship. The Jews were easy scapegoats not only because of religion but because of their heavy connection to banking.

4 There was a strong anti war feeling in both Britain and the US. More so in Britain than the US. Britain had lost a good portion of its young bright male
population who the was backbone of it officer corps and had led most of the
the field operations in WW1

Poems of Wilfred Owen give a taste of this anti war ethos.

5 There were influential people both in the US and Britain who were Nazis
or very sympathetic to their credo.
For example Duke of Windsor who had abdicated from the throne of England and who should have been charged as a Nazi spy.

And Charles Lindbergh who was our famous aviator.

merrylander
06-07-2014, 08:50 AM
1 The French were greedy. Yes they had suffered the most but still their
reparation demand was over the top and brought ruination to post WW1
Germany. In such a climate Hitler had a sympathetic population.

2 There was a fear of the Bolsheviks by the ruling class in Germany and
Hitler endeared himself to that class by effectively countering the Bolsheviks in the streets with his Brown Shirts.

3 Anti Jewish rhetoric was always part of the European political and social
scene especially at times of economic hardship. The Jews were easy scapegoats not only because of religion but because of their heavy connection to banking.

4 There was a strong anti war feeling in both Britain and the US. More so in Britain than the US. Britain had lost a good portion of its young bright male
population who the was backbone of it officer corps and had led most of the
the field operations in WW1

Poems of Wilfred Owens give a taste of this anti war ethos.

There were influential people both in the US and Britain who were Nazis
or very sympathetic to their credo.
For example Duke of Windsor who had abdicated from the throne of England and who should have been charged as a Nazi spy.

And Charles Lindbergh who was our famous aviator.

I believe Henry Ford was in that camp as well.

One thing WW I did to Britain was break the thrall of the nobility, the recent TV series Downton Abbey shows some of this rebellion even by the sons and daughters of the upper class.

donquixote99
06-07-2014, 10:00 AM
[QUOTE=icenine;223294]In 1924 no one in the rest of the world took him seriously. Why did millions of Germans vote for him in the elections of 1933? His book had been out for 10 years by then.

The barking monster was a brilliant agitator and he promised jobs for milliions of unemployed people, unemploymennt was a huge problem in Germany in the early thirties. The other political parties then were weak and devoid of lacking in ideas. These are some reasons why he was so successful.

The rest was that he ran his party as a criminal enterprise that effectively used intimidation, blackmail, and murder to vitiate all opposition, and he rendered the Reichstag non-functional through a strategy of disciplined disruption and trolling by the Nazi delegation. This being in addition, as you note, to being 'fortunate' in the quality of other actors of crucial influence, eg Hindenburg and von Papen.

merrylander
06-07-2014, 10:39 AM
Poems of Wilfred Owen give a taste of this anti war ethos.



Speaking of poems every Canadian school child at one time or another had to learn;

"In Flanders Fields" by Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae

I fact even after all these year it is still there in my mind. And at least one of the class would recite it after the minute of silence at 11:00 AM on the 11th day of the 11th month - November.

icenine
06-07-2014, 10:43 AM
[QUOTE=HarmanKardon;223295]

The rest was that he ran his oarty as a criminal enterprise that effectively used intimidation, blackmail, and murder to vitiate all opposition, and he rendered the Reichstag non-functional through a strategy of disciplined disruption and trolling by the Nazi delegation. This being in addition, as you note, to being 'fortunate' in the quality of other actors of crucial influence, eg Hindenburg and von Papen.

However people still voted for him. Millions did.

donquixote99
06-07-2014, 11:28 AM
But something like the Third Reich + WWII could probably never happen again due to the global exchange of information by the internet in a world we call the Global Village. At least I hope it will never happen again.

Never say never.

If I had to bet on what large nation might go fascist and plunge everyone into hell, I'd say the U.S. Not that I'd call it real likely at thins point. But I guess a 10% chance in the next 20 years would not be an out-there estimate....

donquixote99
06-07-2014, 11:34 AM
He was elected partly because Clemanceau had demanded such reparations that it, along with the depression destroyed the German economy. Ask any stamp collector about the German stamps of the period, surcrged with astonomical numbers. You could get your wages in a wheelbarrow and by the time you got to market it would barely buy a loaf of bread. My neighbour back in quebec told me how he and his buddies worked on a farm just for the food.

America was looking inward and in Britain no one wanted war and there were even some who thought the destruction of the Jews was a good thing. And we got war only because Britain (and Near as I recall France) had a pact with Poland.

Because France was on good terms withBelgium the Maginot line ended at the France Belgium border so they simply swept around it.

In those days military intelligence was an oxymoron hence Dieppe and the loss of so many Canadians. It was supposed to be a sandy beach instead theit tanks faced a pebbled beach and a three foot seawall and so they were slaughtered.

All in all it was a bloody mess and we only won by destroying tthe factories Ruhr valley dam and cutting off fuel supplies.

I continue to argue it accords him unwarranted legitimacy to say he was 'elected.' The Nazi's popularity had peaked and they lost seats in the last Reichstag election before Hitler was appointed Chancellor. Hitler was in despair over his fading prospects before von Papen handed him power.

I would call the passage of the Enabling Act, that gave the Chancellor dictatorial powers, a virtual coup, with the Reichstag lined with stormtroopers and the Nazis howling for blood if the act failed.

Oerets
06-07-2014, 11:46 AM
No one can say that similar atrocities are not happening still today. North Korea for one and the Rwandan Genocide even thou confined inside their borders. Given our technological expertise and advanced weapons the potential for widespread devastation will always exists, sad to say.

On the way Germany was treated after WWI, yes the stern belief in to the victor goes the spoils came back ten fold. The second time around a much better attempt was made to bring wayward countries back into the fold.


Barney

Dondilion
06-07-2014, 11:52 AM
[QUOTE=donquixote99;223325]

However people still voted for him. Millions did.

Hitler had a very effective propaganda machine headed by Goebbels.

For instance he made great use of the government connection to the construction of the Bundesautobahn and Hitlers personal connection to Volkswagen car - Hitler designed the "Peoples' car".

donquixote99
06-07-2014, 12:00 PM
Propaganda works.

This is a fact with big implications.

Dondilion
06-07-2014, 12:00 PM
I continue to argue it accords him unwarranted legitimacy to say he was 'elected.' The Nazi's popularity had peaked and they lost seats in the last Reichstag election before Hitler was appointed Chancellor. Hitler was in despair over his fading prospects before von Papen handed him power.

I would call the passage of the Enabling Act, that gave the Chancellor dictatorial powers, a virtual coup, with the Reichstag lined with stormtroopers and the Nazis howling for blood if the act failed.

The leaders of the army were complicit too. Although they loathe Hitler, he successfully played his anti Bolshevik street credential card to overcome the army's reservation.

BlueStreak
06-07-2014, 12:14 PM
[QUOTE=icenine;223294]
The barking monster was a brilliant agitator and he promised jobs for milliions of unemployed people, unemploymennt was a huge problem in Germany in the early thirties. The other political parties then were weak and devoid of lacking in ideas. These are some reasons why he was so successful.

And there's our answer. In less prosperous countries, such as the African nations, warlords gain control of the food & water supply and use it to control the masses. If you don't submit, you don't eat. In the "industrialized" nations such as Germany and the United States.....it's employment that is used in this fashion.

"They who do not work, shall not eat."

Where have we heard THAT from recently?

Have a nice day.

Dave

HarmanKardon
06-07-2014, 12:17 PM
[QUOTE=icenine;223327]

Hitler had a very effective propaganda machine headed by Goebbels.

For instance he made great use of the government connection to the construction of the Bundesautobahn and Hitlers personal connection to Volkswagen car - Hitler designed the "Peoples' car".

Two little mistakes in your post. The "Bundesautobahn" is the term for the current highways. The name of the barking monster's invention was "Reichsautobahn".

"Peoples' Car" - which is our well known "Volkswagen" was a term that did not exist in the beginning. The name of Ferdinand Porsche's project was "KDF Wagen". The acronym KDF means "Kraft durch Freude", which means "Strength by joy". Porsche designed the car.

I love this expression. Strength by joy. Beautiful. But stigmatized forever by the fucking Nazis nobody use it anymore.

Dondilion
06-07-2014, 12:20 PM
Donquixote the Enabling Act needs some context.

Hitlers gang burned down the Reichstag and blamed it on the communists.

He then eliminated them and others from parliament based on this accusation thus aiding him in obtaining a majority vote to pass the act.

It is interesting to view the main provisions of the Act.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933

BlueStreak
06-07-2014, 12:22 PM
The leaders of the army was complicit too. Although they loathe Hitler, he successfully played his anti Bolshevik street credential card to overcome the army's reservation.

Correct. The fear of Bolshevism, ("far leftist ideology"), was also used as a catalyst. As was the influx of immigrants of so-called "parasitic races", up until the Nazi regime.

Make of that what you will.

Dave

BlueStreak
06-07-2014, 12:24 PM
[QUOTE=HarmanKardon;223295]

And there's our answer. In less prosperous countries, such as the African nations, warlords gain control of the food & water supply and use it to control the masses. If you don't submit, you don't eat. In the "industrialized" nations such as Germany and the United States.....it's employment that is used in this fashion.

"They who do not work, shall not eat."

Where have we heard THAT from recently?

Have a nice day.

Dave

Correct. The fear of Bolshevism, ("far leftist ideology"), was also used as a catalyst. As was the influx of immigrants of so-called "parasitic races", up until the Nazi regime.

Make of that what you will.

Dave

Feel free to comment when the parallels become evident.

Dave

HarmanKardon
06-07-2014, 12:24 PM
Prototype by Porsche 1936

A propaganda project. Hundred thousands had aready a contract of sale and saved 5 Reichsmark a week until they achieved the 990 Reichsmark. But the car had never been delivered. Another plain fraud on the people.

BlueStreak
06-07-2014, 12:27 PM
No back window or rear view mirrors? Ummmmmm........ Not good.;)

Dave

HarmanKardon
06-07-2014, 12:36 PM
No back window or rear view mirrors? Ummmmmm........ Not good.;)

Dave

Right!

Modified version some months later:

Dondilion
06-07-2014, 12:55 PM
Speaking of poems every Canadian school child at one time or another had to learn;

"In Flanders Fields" by Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae

I fact even after all these year it is still there in my mind. And at least one of the class would recite it after the minute of silence at 11:00 AM on the 11th day of the 11th month - November.

here are the first three lines of Wilfred Owen's poem of deep loss, Anthem For Doomed Youth.

What passing bells for those who die as cattle?

Only the monstrous anger of the guns.

Only the stuttering rifles' rapid fire

BlueStreak
06-07-2014, 12:56 PM
How could an automotive genius like Herr Porsche miss that? Bizarre.

HarmanKardon
06-07-2014, 12:57 PM
How could an automotive genius like Herr Porsche miss that? Bizarre.

This prototype was a strange study, indeed.

Tom Joad
06-07-2014, 01:02 PM
Why did millions of Germans vote for him in the elections of 1933?

Same shit, different day.

http://i843.photobucket.com/albums/zz359/Dog_of_the_Earth/newspaper81.png (http://s843.photobucket.com/user/Dog_of_the_Earth/media/newspaper81.png.html)

HarmanKardon
06-07-2014, 01:14 PM
Well - okay - in a way - but:

Any comparison with the barking monster is at last an inappropriate comparison, in my opinion.

donquixote99
06-07-2014, 01:34 PM
Donquixote the Enabling Act needs some context.

Hitlers gang burned down the Reichstag and blamed it on the communists.

He then eliminated them and others from parliament based on this accusation thus aiding him in obtaining a majority vote to pass the act.

It is interesting to view the main provisions of the Act.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933

All of a piece with my theme. The arson of a national symbol, followed by hot and lurid accusation of enormous falseness, along with extra-legal arrests and purges, may not be numbered among the means of public men of even ordinarily indifferent scruple. The form of democracy, in that place and time, was vulnerable to subversion, by men of a liver to do it.

donquixote99
06-07-2014, 01:50 PM
Right!

Modified version some months later:

Yes, but the first design, with that great uninterrupted curve from the top of the windshield to the back end (almost said back bumper, but that too is among the missing), just glistens with 'elegance,' in the drawing paper sense.

I'll bet ol' FP had a sour stomach indeed when he had to sign off on the back window. Genius hates to compromise!

http://www.politicalchat.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2280&d=1402161884

donquixote99
06-07-2014, 02:04 PM
Well - okay - in a way - but:

Any comparison with the barking monster is at last an inappropriate comparison, in my opinion.

At root of that sentiment is denial that a repeat of Hitler is possible. But that is exactly similar with the belief that the first one was not possible, which contributed much, I am sure, to the inaction you ask about in the OP.

The insistence that Hitler was unique, and incomparable, is to my mind dangerous. It tells us 'it can't happen again.' But it most definitely can, and the fact that it happened the first time is the undeniable proof.

Pio1980
06-07-2014, 07:31 PM
[QUOTE=Dondilion;223340]

Two little mistakes in your post. The "Bundesautobahn" is the term for the current highways. The name of the barking monster's invention was "Reichsautobahn".

"Peoples' Car" - which is our well known "Volkswagen" was a term that did not exist in the beginning. The name of Ferdinand Porsche's project was "KDF Wagen". The acronym KDF means "Kraft durch Freude", which means "Strength by joy". Porsche designed the car.

I love this expression. Strength by joy. Beautiful. But stigmatized forever by the fucking Nazis nobody use it anymore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatra_%28company%29#Tatra_and_the_conception_of_th e_Volkswagen_Beetle

HarmanKardon
06-08-2014, 01:54 AM
At root of that sentiment is denial that a repeat of Hitler is possible. But that is exactly similar with the belief that the first one was not possible, which contributed much, I am sure, to the inaction you ask about in the OP.

The insistence that Hitler was unique, and incomparable, is to my mind dangerous. It tells us 'it can't happen again.' But it most definitely can, and the fact that it happened the first time is the undeniable proof.

Please do not misunderstand my remark Don. What I tried to express is that the quality of the barking monster's maliciousness and insanity was unique. I am convinced that the Global Community will not allow to happen again the rise and triumph of such a dictator. Call me naive, but I am convinced that this will never happen again.

icenine
06-08-2014, 02:08 AM
The world is tolerating North Korea.

HarmanKardon
06-08-2014, 02:20 AM
The world is tolerating North Korea.

Every damned fart of this fucking little Fatty is under observation of the United States.

Pio1980
06-08-2014, 05:59 AM
At least Clinton saw it coming in Bosnia and stepped up. That intervention I have no problem.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

HarmanKardon
06-08-2014, 07:30 AM
[QUOTE=HarmanKardon;223344]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatra_%28company%29#Tatra_and_the_conception_of_th e_Volkswagen_Beetle

Interesting detail Pio, I didn't know that before.

Pio1980
06-08-2014, 09:29 AM
[QUOTE=Pio1980;223395]

Interesting detail Pio, I didn't know that before.

One of the followup articles states that so many Wehrmacht officers were killed driving Tatras at excessive speed that they were eventually forbidden to have them. The Czech secret weapon?

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

finnbow
06-08-2014, 10:38 AM
Well there would be a figure in front of the word but the mere fact that it would take billonen to mail a letter I suspect few were because those stamps are mostly available mint (unused) and are more or less worthless. But if you can find a used one they are quite valuable to collectors.

I have hundreds, if not thousands, of stamps from the Nazi era. A lot of them are "overprints" where they would print the new value on top of the old value. Also, when I was a kid living in Mannheim, there were still many bombed out buildings. A number of them had wallpaper made from postage stamps, as the stamps were worth less than the adhesive paper they were printed on.

merrylander
06-08-2014, 11:21 AM
I have hundreds, if not thousands, of stamps from the Nazi era. A lot of them are "overprints" where they would print the new value on top of the old value. Also, when I was a kid living in Mannheim, there were still many bombed out buildings. A number of them had wallpaper made from postage stamps, as the stamps were worth less than the adhesive paper they were printed on.

Some of those overprints were for use in the conquered countries if there was a name rather than a value.

mpholland
06-08-2014, 11:55 AM
Yes, but the first design, with that great uninterrupted curve from the top of the windshield to the back end (almost said back bumper, but that too is among the missing), just glistens with 'elegance,' in the drawing paper sense.

I'll bet ol' FP had a sour stomach indeed when he had to sign off on the back window. Genius hates to compromise!

http://www.politicalchat.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2280&d=1402161884

Looks like the car that would spawn the bug and, at a much later date, the Porsche 356.

donquixote99
06-08-2014, 12:23 PM
Please do not misunderstand my remark Don. What I tried to express is that the quality of the barking monster's maliciousness and insanity was unique. I am convinced that the Global Community will not allow to happen again the rise and triumph of such a dictator. Call me naive, but I am convinced that this will never happen again.

Again, I doubt the uniqueness of the malice and insanity. The only unique thing was Hitler's 'success.' I hope that you're right about the opposition a new 'Hitler' would face, but I'm not nearly as certain as you seem to be. That is, if the leader of a regional power seemed to be going too far, what is the world supposed to do about it? And will they actually do it?

HarmanKardon
06-08-2014, 12:38 PM
Again, I doubt the uniqueness of the malice and insanity. The only unique thing was Hitler's 'success.' I hope that you're right about the opposition a new 'Hitler' would face, but I'm not nearly as certain as you seem to be. That is, if the leader of a regional power seemed to be going too far, what is the world supposed to do about it? And will they actually do it?

What would happen if our ambitous Fatty from North Korea would try to make history in becoming as successful as the barking monster? The world would react Don, the United States and their allies would brake Fatty's fat neck. You may count on that. Even China would stop him.

mpholland
06-08-2014, 12:42 PM
What would happen if our ambitous Fatty from North Korea would try to make history in becoming as successful as the barking monster? The world would react Don, the United States and their allies would brake Fatty's fat neck. You may count on that.

That might depend on what China and possibly Russia would have to say in the matter. I am not sure China would do much as long as he kept it to Korea. He obviously isn't much of a threat to them.

merrylander
06-08-2014, 02:57 PM
Quite apart from his malice and insanity he was said to be able to charm people such that they would go along with him.

BlueStreak
06-08-2014, 03:16 PM
Quite apart from his malice and insanity he was said to be able to charm people such that they would go along with him.

That's usually the case with tyrants. I've read the same about Stalin, that the bastard was actually a blast to party with.

Just don't get on his bad side.:eek:

Dave

merrylander
06-09-2014, 05:40 AM
Of course there is always Vladimir Putin

donquixote99
06-09-2014, 11:26 AM
Quite apart from his malice and insanity he was said to be able to charm people such that they would go along with him.

Hitler was a very persuasive fellow. Had lots of tools in the kit: charm, bribery, fraud, reasoned persuasion, browbeating, intimidation, blackmail, etc, etc. Used all of them. In his prime he could get just about anyone on board, one way or another.

donquixote99
06-09-2014, 11:27 AM
Of course there is always Vladimir Putin

There certainly is....

Dondilion
06-09-2014, 12:06 PM
Putin has not espoused any ethnic superiority doctrine.

To the contrary he has strive to included people of all ethnicity in
Russia and formulate laws to stamp out anti ethnic propaganda.

HarmanKardon
06-10-2014, 02:05 AM
Of course there is always Vladimir Putin

Putin is a very intelligent asshole. But I doubt that he could ever become a threat to (on? for?) the world community like the barking monster did.

Pio1980
06-10-2014, 02:04 PM
Putin is a very intelligent asshole. But I doubt that he could ever become a threat to (on? for?) the world community like the barking monster did.

Never underestimate the power of rampant nationalism, an inestimably costly lesson from the barking monster himself and his circle.

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JJIII
06-10-2014, 05:20 PM
Putin is a very intelligent asshole. But I doubt that he could ever become a threat to (on? for?) the world community like the barking monster did.

:)

(That's my opinion.)

HarmanKardon
06-11-2014, 12:06 AM
Some more correct English - my last sentence actually should have ended with "was" instead of "did"? Right?

bobabode
06-11-2014, 12:16 AM
Some more correct English - my last sentence actually should have ended with "was" instead of "did"? Right?

"Was" is correct, I think, maybe...:o

HarmanKardon
06-11-2014, 01:05 AM
I think if I refer to "become" it must be "was".

piece-itpete
06-11-2014, 12:36 PM
90 years ago the barking monster wrote his book "Mein Kampf". It was 1924, nine years before the beginning of his dictatorship. Everybody could read now about his two goals: extinction of the jews and world domination. Sensitive intellecuals like Hermann Hesse, Kurt Tucholsky and many others had a presentment of WWII already then and expressed their warnings in books and newspapers.

1933 the barking monster started his dictatorship and some five years later, around 1938 everybody who wanted to see it could see clearly what would happen pretty soon. 1939 the catastrophe begun by the ambush on Poland. 1940 France was next in line. And so on and on...

My question now: Why didn't intervene nations like the United States or Britain earlier in order to stop the massive insanity, this totally destructive war of conquest?

I don't have time to read the comments sadly, but I'll throw in my $.02.

Long and short, there was absolutely no will among the developed nation's populace, and the ruling powers that be stuck their heads in the sand.

Interestingly the only great power that saw the danger clearly and actively worked to contain it was the USSR. After repeated attempts to engage the US and the balance of Europe they gave up and signed their infamous treaty, but they were only trying to protect their interests and hey, might as well pick up territory while they're at it. No one took them seriously and/or would work with the communists.

Pete

finnbow
06-11-2014, 12:45 PM
My question now: Why didn't intervene nations like the United States or Britain earlier in order to stop the massive insanity, this totally destructive war of conquest?

Because at the time, bloody wars between European rivals seemed to be the rule and not the exception and we felt pretty comfortable thousands of miles away across the ocean. I suppose the more pertinent question is why an educated country such as Germany allowed themselves to be hoodwinked by a madman and dragged into another costly war.

HarmanKardon
06-12-2014, 02:17 AM
Because at the time, bloody wars between European rivals seemed to be the rule and not the exception and we felt pretty comfortable thousands of miles away across the ocean. I suppose the more pertinent question is why an educated country such as Germany allowed themselves to be hoodwinked by a madman and dragged into another costly war.

The question has been answered in some of the previous posts.

nailer
07-15-2014, 05:22 PM
Winston Churchill gave it his best to warn the British of Hitler's true intentions.

BlueStreak
07-15-2014, 05:47 PM
Winston Churchill gave it his best to warn the British of Hitler's true intentions.

Yes, he did. But, really, Hitler himself made little effort to conceal his intentions. His speeches became very rabid well before the invasion of Poland. "Lebensraum", anyone?

The thing is, most people, especially in Europe less than 20 years after WW1, don't actually like war. Well, all except for violence loving crazies and silly ass armchair warrior Americans who've never had it happen to them.:rolleyes:

Dave

bobabode
07-15-2014, 05:56 PM
Add an unprecedented world wide economic meltdown in the '30s to the war weariness experienced by the 'Lost Generation' and no one wanted to listen to the grumblings. Empty bellies have little room for more belt tightening that military expenditures require.

BlueStreak
07-15-2014, 05:57 PM
Because at the time, bloody wars between European rivals seemed to be the rule and not the exception and we felt pretty comfortable thousands of miles away across the ocean. I suppose the more pertinent question is why an educated country such as Germany allowed themselves to be hoodwinked by a madman and dragged into another costly war.

Because Hitler fervently believed Germany was "exceptional", endowed by supernatural forces to gain military and political "superiority" on the world stage in order to spread ideology on to other nations whether they want it or not?

Sounds familiar.:rolleyes:

Dave

BlueStreak
07-15-2014, 06:03 PM
Add an unprecedented world wide economic meltdown in the '30s to the war weariness experienced by the 'Lost Generation' and no one wanted to listen to the grumblings. Empty bellies have little room for more belt tightening that military expenditures require.

Yeah. A runaway MIC during hard times is not good. Like nations with declining economies blowing hundreds of billions on flaming, malfunctioning fighter jets that seem perpetually grounded.

What sort of idiots do shit like that?

Dave

finnbow
07-15-2014, 06:04 PM
Because Hitler fervently believed Germany was "exceptional", endowed by supernatural forces to gain military and political "superiority" on the world stage in order to spread ideology on to other nations whether they want it or not?

Sounds familiar.:rolleyes:

Dave

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/002124085/3923678090_Cheney_drevil_answer_5_xlarge.jpeg

bobabode
07-15-2014, 06:24 PM
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQGLcpHOvHb89QyZv_KrVzvLcdv4uoDQ XjtCRPRiFfMG5JjnZT9

Pio1980
07-15-2014, 09:14 PM
https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQGLcpHOvHb89QyZv_KrVzvLcdv4uoDQ XjtCRPRiFfMG5JjnZT9

Daddy Warbucks, an alternative to FDR. No thanx!

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piece-itpete
07-16-2014, 10:19 AM
Because at the time, bloody wars between European rivals seemed to be the rule and not the exception and we felt pretty comfortable thousands of miles away across the ocean. I suppose the more pertinent question is why an educated country such as Germany allowed themselves to be hoodwinked by a madman and dragged into another costly war.

I've always thought, if it could happen to the seemingly amazingly civilized 30s Germany it can happen to anyone.

Pete

bobabode
07-16-2014, 11:05 AM
I've always thought, if it could happen to the seemingly amazingly civilized 30s Germany it can happen to anyone.

Pete

Might it have something to do with wealth disparity? When the middle class suffers downward pressure towards poverty, people get desperate.

JJIII
07-16-2014, 11:11 AM
Might it have something to do with wealth disparity? When the middle class suffers downward pressure towards poverty, people get desperate and pissed.

Fixed that for ya!;)

bobabode
07-16-2014, 11:22 AM
Fixed that for ya!;)

Yessir. Uberly.

Coming soon here in the good ol' US of A. The fearmongering propagandists on the right seem to be finding fertile ground. :(

donquixote99
07-16-2014, 12:06 PM
Nazism eventually made inroads into the bourgeoisie, but it's not where they started, or were were naturally big. Think German rednecks--whose class resentment of the bourgeoisie was exploited.

Resemblance to a currently-troublesome RW faction left as an exercise....

piece-itpete
07-16-2014, 12:09 PM
William L. Shirer calls the Nazis 'armed intellectuals'.

Pete

donquixote99
07-16-2014, 12:13 PM
I don't think I buy that Shirerism at all. They just pretended to be intellectuals. Hitler could turn a phrase and sound real smart....

He also pretended to be a lederhosen-wearing good Christian Bavarian country boy, and lots of other stuff too.

But Shirer was right about one thing--they were armed. And dangerous.

donquixote99
07-16-2014, 12:22 PM
The Nazis were intellectuals the way Glen Beck is an intellectual.

bobabode
07-16-2014, 12:23 PM
William L. Shirer calls the Nazis 'armed intellectuals'.

Pete

"Shirer smuggled his diaries and notes out of Germany and used them for his Berlin Diary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Diary), a firsthand, day-by-day account of events inside the Third Reich during five years of peace and one year of war. It was published in 1941. Historians comparing the original manuscript with the published text discovered that Shirer made many changes, such as covering up his favourable early impressions of Hitler. Much of the text about the pre-1934–38 period was first written long after the war began." Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_L._Shirer

finnbow
07-16-2014, 12:30 PM
William L. Shirer calls the Nazis 'armed intellectuals'.

Pete

They rounded up and killed intellectuals, Pete.

piece-itpete
07-16-2014, 12:44 PM
That disagreed with them! Of course they did that to anyone.

Interesting Bob. Not too surprising though. Try one of his books on them though, he's pretty good.

Pete

nailer
07-16-2014, 12:51 PM
William L. Shirer calls the Nazis 'armed intellectuals'.

Pete

He also referred to them as gangsters.

nailer
07-16-2014, 12:54 PM
They rounded up and killed intellectuals, Pete.

In Good, Viggo Mortensen plays an intellectual who became a Nazi.

piece-itpete
07-16-2014, 12:56 PM
I can think of many appropriate things to call them, for sure.

Pete

bobabode
07-16-2014, 01:13 PM
That disagreed with them! Of course they did that to anyone.

Interesting Bob. Not too surprising though. Try one of his books on them though, he's pretty good.

Pete

I read 'The Rise and Fall..." decades ago. No argument that he's a good writer bro. His "I went from bad to Hearst' quote had me chuckling. Fuckin' Hearst was a despicable sumbitch, so much so that when we drove past his castle
on the California coast recently, I had to give him the obligatory 'one finger salute'. :rolleyes:

finnbow
07-16-2014, 01:22 PM
That disagreed with them! Of course they did that to anyone.

They focused on exterminating minorities, gays and intellectuals. I guess the target of the Far Right's animus hasn't changed much in the past 75 years.

piece-itpete
07-16-2014, 01:43 PM
Well that escalated quickly ;)

And a rare mistake on my part :o It WASN"T Shirer, it was Konrad Heiden. Feel free to beat me brutally. As I have only read one of his books it MUST be at least mentioned in: 'Der Führer – Hitler's Rise to Power'.

But he said it elsewhere apparently, here's a quote: "... thousands of youthful, ex-Army officers were streaming back from defeat to poverty and unemployment in the Weimar Republic. They were "armed intellectuals," war-hardened products of Germany's prewar universities. They became an army of the armed bohemians, of heroes and murderers by conviction. ..."

http://harpercrusade.blogspot.com/2010/04/chapter-nine-continued-armed.html

Pete

donquixote99
07-16-2014, 02:39 PM
In Good, Viggo Mortensen plays an intellectual who became a Nazi.

I would say that Mortensen plays an intellectual who was targeted and co-opted by the Nazis. They gave him rank and privileges in return for his help with the pretense that Nazism had intellectual support.

It's an illustration of the lengths the Nazis went to, and their success at, corrupting German society in general. In general, evil people feel the very existence of good people to be a rebuke, and they try to make them evil too. They then can sooth themselves with the thought that those who think themselves morally superior actually are not.

donquixote99
07-16-2014, 02:58 PM
Well that escalated quickly ;)

And a rare mistake on my part :o It WASN"T Shirer, it was Konrad Heiden. Feel free to beat me brutally. As I have only read one of his books it MUST be at least mentioned in: 'Der Führer – Hitler's Rise to Power'.

But he said it elsewhere apparently, here's a quote: "... thousands of youthful, ex-Army officers were streaming back from defeat to poverty and unemployment in the Weimar Republic. They were "armed intellectuals," war-hardened products of Germany's prewar universities. They became an army of the armed bohemians, of heroes and murderers by conviction. ..."

http://harpercrusade.blogspot.com/2010/04/chapter-nine-continued-armed.html

Pete

Sounds like a description of some members of the 'freikorps' militia-type units that were active immediately after WWI. They provided models for the SA. Some we rightwing, some were leftwing. None were Nazi, as the nazis didn't exist yet.

piece-itpete
07-16-2014, 03:01 PM
Read more of it.

In many ways Nazis were progressive run amok. They enforced a few theories well liked at the time.

Pete

bobabode
07-16-2014, 03:55 PM
Read more of it.

In many ways Nazis were progressive run amok. They enforced a few theories well liked at the time.

Pete

:mad:Now you've done it...You leave Teddy Roosevelt out of it.!:rolleyes:

finnbow
07-16-2014, 04:01 PM
Read more of it.

In many ways Nazis were progressive run amok. They enforced a few theories well liked at the time.

Pete

The Nazis were the Teabaggers of the day, only better dressed.;) They were successful at the time because of economic desperation and a culture that respects authority far more than ours. They bought into the same sort of demagoguery as is spewed daily on talk radio and Faux.

nailer
07-16-2014, 04:16 PM
The Nazis were far more than our poor abused Baggers. Such a comparison diminishes what the Nazis did while demonizing the Baggers.

donquixote99
07-16-2014, 06:42 PM
The Nazis were far more than our poor abused Baggers. Such a comparison diminishes what the Nazis did while demonizing the Baggers.

Basically true. But the Baggers got potential.

finnbow
07-16-2014, 08:28 PM
The Nazis were far more than our poor abused Baggers. Such a comparison diminishes what the Nazis did while demonizing the Baggers.

It ain't for a lack of trying.

Oerets
07-16-2014, 09:21 PM
The Nazis were far more than our poor abused Baggers. Such a comparison diminishes what the Nazis did while demonizing the Baggers.

Give them time dude! Remember the Nazis took time to build up steam ya know.



Barney

nailer
07-16-2014, 11:00 PM
Sounds like a description of some members of the 'freikorps' militia-type units that were active immediately after WWI. They provided models for the SA. Some we rightwing, some were leftwing. None were Nazi, as the nazis didn't exist yet.

Max touches on this.

Dondilion
07-16-2014, 11:20 PM
removed

Dondilion
07-16-2014, 11:22 PM
Read more of it.

In many ways Nazis were progressive run amok. They enforced a few theories well liked at the time.

Pete

Kindly expand and distill.

piece-itpete
07-17-2014, 08:11 AM
Not Teddy, or perhaps not only Teddy (I don't know enough about him), but Wilson and FDR as big examples.

Government control over the economy (big business mainly), eugenics off the cuff.

Pete

Pio1980
07-17-2014, 12:13 PM
Eugenics and the Nazi approach aside, unregulated free market commerce has yet to demonstrate itself trustworthy, competent, and/or beneficial to its host society.

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VanishingPoi
07-20-2014, 01:11 PM
http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/images/henryFORD_hitlersINSPIRATION.jpg
Ford had quite a history of involvement with ultra-conservative and fascist causes.

VanishingPoi
07-20-2014, 01:13 PM
People like Henry Ford and Charles Lindbergh are a couple more reason we did not get involved. Vicious anti-semites.

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-Dearborn_Indy01b.png

(Henry Ford was very upset about "the commercialization of baseball". Some star baseball players were beginning to receive what Ford considered to be very large salaries ($125,000 for Babe Ruth's contract was mentioned), and Ford blamed the Jews for all of it. It is funny that the fabulously wealthy multi-millionaire Ford felt that Babe Ruth should work for peanuts, but that he, Henry Ford, should not). Sound familiar?

Bigerik
07-20-2014, 01:41 PM
Be careful when referring to Hitler as a monster. It dehumanizes him, and sets him apart from from us. He was a man, who did monstrous things. As such, his like have the possibility of rising again.

Pio1980
07-20-2014, 02:06 PM
Putins motivation is similar but gay folk are his Jews. What's happening in Africa with the American Jesus weasels stirring things up there is also appalling.


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Dondilion
07-20-2014, 02:32 PM
Lot of what is observed in the article is true. However a good portion of it was
forced on the Jews early. The gentiles view banking with disdain, as something fundamentally evil and reserved it for the Jews.

Over time the Jews developed extraordinary financial expertise that they
became dominant in the monetary world: monarchs were beholden to them.
A famous Jewish family is Rothschild.

VanishingPoi
07-20-2014, 02:38 PM
Be careful when referring to Hitler as a monster. It dehumanizes him, and sets him apart from from us. He was a man, who did monstrous things. As such, his like have the possibility of rising again.
I see it happening in the United States as we speak. With the likes of Toad Akin, Sarah Paleo, etc.. Those could be our next leaders. Think about that for a moment. I am joking a bit but there is a real possibility of someone like them coming into power. SCOUTS is already tearing us apart.

VanishingPoi
07-20-2014, 02:39 PM
Putins motivation is similar but gay folk are his Jews. What's happening in Africa with the American Jesus weasels stirring things up there is also appalling.


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Yes, it is appalling.

Dondilion
07-20-2014, 02:39 PM
Putins motivation is similar but gay folk are his Jews.


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Geeze!

I wonder what are gay folks in Saudi Arabia.

Pio1980
07-20-2014, 03:06 PM
Geeze!

I wonder what are gay folks in Saudi Arabia.

Surely you are not defending his progrom of persecution against gays.
I mentioned in a previous posting Putins self appointed role as the Russian Messiah, much as AH was the self-appointed Teutonic/Aryan Messiah of Germany. AH had the Jews as his scapegoat and VP has gone after gays as his tho Jews have always filled that role for Eastern bloc nationalists as well.
Regarding Muslim fundies, either one is one or is not, they are as much a RPITA anywhere as are the Jesus weasels here and elsewhere.

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Pio1980
07-20-2014, 03:10 PM
Lot of what is observed in the article is true. However a good portion of it was
forced on the Jews early. The gentiles view banking with disdain, as something fundamentally evil and reserved it for the Jews.

Over time the Jews developed extraordinary financial expertise that they
became dominant in the monetary world: monarchs were beholden to them.
A famous Jewish family is Rothschild.

Quite right as with other 'tainted' activities like entertaining and recycling/reclaimation.

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donquixote99
07-20-2014, 03:23 PM
"...our imagination may picture the United States fifty or a hundred years hence as a land occupied only by Slavs, Negros, and Jews..."

The prediction was offered in 1920. Seems I (and the progeny) have six years to die or get out.

Unless the prediction was racist bullshit. To compare to current scares, substitute "Hispanic" for "Slav." Slavs are OK now, of course.

Dondilion
07-20-2014, 03:24 PM
Surely you are not defending his progrom of persecution against gays.
I mentioned in a previous posting Putins self appointed role as the Russian Messiah, much as AH was the self-appointed Teutonic/Aryan Messiah of Germany. AH had the Jews as his scapegoat and VP has gone after gays as his tho Jews have always filled that role for Eastern bloc nationalists as well.
Regarding Muslim fundies, either one is one or is not, they are as much a RPITA anywhere as are the Jesus weasels here and elsewhere.

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What program of persecution?

Homosexuality is not illegal in Russia. It is illegal in one of the largest democracy in the world..India.

finnbow
07-20-2014, 04:04 PM
What program of persecution?

Homosexuality is not illegal in Russia. It is illegal in one of the largest democracy in the world..India.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/11/russia-law-banning-gay-propaganda

Whether it's persecution or not depends on its implementation (and of course your opinion, which seems clear with respect to all things Russian).

bobabode
07-20-2014, 04:12 PM
What program of persecution?

Homosexuality is not illegal in Russia. It is illegal in one of the largest democracy in the world..India.

Outward displays of homosexuality and support for the LGBT community are indeed unlawful in Russia. :confused:

BlueStreak
07-20-2014, 04:20 PM
"...our imagination may picture the United States fifty or a hundred years hence as a land occupied only by Slavs, Negros, and Jews..."

The prediction was offered in 1920. Seems I (and the progeny) have six years to die or get out.

Unless the prediction was racist bullshit. To compare to current scares, substitute "Hispanic" for "Slav." Slavs are OK now, of course.

Henry Ford? :rolleyes:

Dave

Dondilion
07-20-2014, 04:22 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/11/russia-law-banning-gay-propaganda

Whether it's persecution or not depends on its implementation (and of course your opinion, which seems clear with respect to all things Russian).

In other words have much gay sex as you want but do not push it on the children.

To equate that with the treatment of Jews in Nazi land is over the top...especially when our western leaders are so silent on the egregious
example of Saudi Arabia.

Dondilion
07-20-2014, 04:28 PM
Outward displays of homosexuality and support for the LGBT community are indeed unlawful in Russia. :confused:

Homosexual sex is legal in Russia. Buggery is still on the books in India.

bobabode
07-20-2014, 04:40 PM
Homosexual sex is legal in Russia. Buggery is still on the books in India.

So what does that have to do with what I wrote? :confused:

As I said before, it is illegal to show any outward support for the LGBT community in Russia. Try carrying a rainbow flag in Moscow and you'll find ass in a gulag, no question. That is despicable persecution for exercising free speech and has nothing to do with recruiting kids. You're in denial tovarich.

Pio1980
07-20-2014, 05:23 PM
In other words have much gay sex as you want but do not push it on the children.

To equate that with the treatment of Jews in Nazi land is over the top...especially when our western leaders are so silent on the egregious
example of Saudi Arabia.

This is somewhat similar to the religiously centered anti gay campaign against homosexuality in the US during the Anita Bryant era which was supposedly about "protecting children" but had a far broader agenda. I began coming to terms with my own identity that year and what is going on in Russia looks pretty much the same with VP and the Orthodox Church. The potential parallel to Nazi Germany is cautionary forcasting, I'm as aware as anyone to what went on and why having read up on it years ago and don't throw this out lightly. Jews were attacked and persecuted by gangs of unofficially sponsored thugs with no response from police, just as in Russia, the State sponsored sanctions and progroms came after as expected and predicted. The same will happen there if it suits Putins agenda.

Saudi Arabia is a medevial religious tyranny we tolerate in our hypocracy as a price for our petroleum dependency, they don't care what anyone thinks of them as long as the money flows in and the populace excluded from the benefits stay reasonably docile and remains unaware of their own ruling classes religious hypocracy.

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Dondilion
07-21-2014, 10:28 AM
Dupe, NT

Yeah very selective outrage!

Pio1980
07-21-2014, 10:37 AM
Yeah very selective outrage!

If we were as dependent on Russian petroleum as our European colleagues our commercial and strategic interests would moderate our relationship with them regardless of human rights or other ethical behavior considerations,9 as with our Middle Eastern suppliers. Realpolitik and all that, looking like hypocracy.
Otherwise I don't trust Putin other than for him to be consistent to follow his own muse regardless of other considerations he considers of little Nationalist interest.


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HarmanKardon
07-28-2014, 01:41 AM
If we were as dependent on Russian petroleum as our European colleagues our commercial and strategic interests would moderate our relationship with them regardless of human rights or other ethical behavior considerations,9 as with our Middle Eastern suppliers. Realpolitik and all that, looking like hypocracy.
Otherwise I don't trust Putin other than for him to be consistent to follow his own muse regardless of other considerations he considers of little Nationalist interest.


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Dependencies are the distinguishing characteristic of the 21st century. We are living in a global village and none of the bigger nations will ever be autarkic again. This fact makes Realpolitik necessary. Do not care about the negative "virtue" hypocracy. It is a part of the naturally dirty game.

finnbow
07-28-2014, 07:06 AM
Dependencies are the distinguishing characteristic of the 21st century. We are living in a global village and none of the bigger nations will ever be autarkic again. This fact makes Realpolitik necessary. Do not care about the negative "virtue" hypocracy. It is a part of the naturally dirty game.

I suppose it boils down to how far Germany and the Europe are willing to let Putin go. With that attitude towards Russian aggression towards its European neighbors, I suppose spying against Germany remains the right thing for us to do.:cool:

nailer
07-28-2014, 08:59 AM
We've been spying on Germany since before I was born. :rolleyes:

Without the USA, is Germany willing/able to lead a European coalition that can effectively counter Russian expansion?

HarmanKardon
07-28-2014, 12:43 PM
I suppose it boils down to how far Germany and the Europe are willing to let Putin go. With that attitude towards Russian aggression towards its European neighbors, I suppose spying against Germany remains the right thing for us to do.:cool:

"The right thing" because America is totally paranoid - I said this already somewhere in another thread but I will not repeat this fact for a third time in this forum. You will never get it, Sir. And others here neither.

For sure something had to be changed after 9/11 but what America's NSA is meanwhile doing is nothing else than SICK.

piece-itpete
07-29-2014, 12:37 PM
I thought I heard that Germany was given the chance to join 'Five Eyes' a while back? Wiki says West Germany was a member.

I found this funny (wiki):

"According to a former top U.S. official, "Germany joining would be a possibility, but not France – France itself spies on the US far too aggressively for that."

Pete

HarmanKardon
07-29-2014, 12:55 PM
Well Pete - for further current "Five Eyes" information just ask Mr. Snowden. :D