Israel Mourns Teenagers, Strikes Hamas In Gaza

[djv8ga]

It appears Hamas is about to get a serious beat down.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/01/us-palestinians-israel-idUSKBN0F521P20140701

[finnbow]

Perhaps so, but Israel is playing with fire with all of their West Bank settlements. I spent 3 weeks in Israel in November and traveled into the West Bank as well. I think if I was a Palestinian living on the West Bank, I'd have a lot of (justified) hate in my heart for Israel's settlement policy.

[Dondilion]

Israel with all its power is compounding its occupation problem.

Build more settlement in the west bank and more settlers have to interact
with resentful people.

[djv8ga]

Perhaps so, but Israel is playing with fire with all of their West Bank settlements. I spent 3 weeks in Israel in November and traveled into the West Bank as well. I think if I was a Palestinian living on the West Bank, I'd have a lot of (justified) hate in my heart for Israel's settlement policy.
What do you mean by "playing with fire?' Are you saying they will be attacked?
I'm curious, why did you go there?

[finnbow]

What do you mean by "playing with fire?' Are you saying they will be attacked?
I'm curious, why did you go there?

My son works there as a construction manager in support of the State Department's Foreign Military Sales program. We traveled all over Israel with him and went into Jordan to visit Petra and Wadi Rum (both are fantastic, BTW). My wife and I took a Palestinian public bus from Jerusalem's Damascus Gate area to Bethlehem in order to visit the Church of the Nativity. This involved crossing the border wall and going through the checkpoints in the West Bank. I also went there on vacation in ~1983 while I was living in Germany.

With respect to the "playing with fire" comment, Israel's continuing to support further settlements (and looking the other way on the expansion of illegal settlements) is bound to spark outrage among the Palestinians as the Israelis continue to try to annex as much land as possible on the West Bank.

[djv8ga]

My son works there as a construction manager in support of the State Department's Foreign Military Sales program. We traveled all over Israel with him and went into Jordan to visit Petra and Wadi Rum (both are fantastic, BTW). My wife and I took a Palestinian public bus from Jerusalem's Damascus Gate area to Bethlehem in order to visit the Church of the Nativity. This involved crossing the border wall and going through the checkpoints in the West Bank. I also went there on vacation in ~1983 while I was living in Germany.
Ah...got it. I hear it's an interesting place to see, but I have zero desire to spend time anywhere in the Middle East.

[Dondilion]

Israeli settlement policy is dictated by Israeli extremists, who are not
looking for solutions.

Both sides are dominated by religious myths.
Hello member one1 your help is needed here. :D

[finnbow]

Ah...got it. I hear it's an interesting place to see, but I have zero desire to spend time anywhere in the Middle East.

Israel has a bunch of very interesting and historical sites. That said, Petra and Wadi Rum in Jordan are worth the trip alone. The Jordanians were very nice and pleasant people, BTW - much more so than the Israelis.

We'll be going to Morocco, along with southern Spain and Portugal, in May. My niece, her husband and kids live there as he works as a mechanical engineer in the construction of a big phosphate plant there. The Moroccans are also very hospitable, nice folks, BTW.

[Oerets]

In the search for the boys Israeli army has killed innocents. The BBC reported five Palestinians were killed in the search. This is a tragic very tragic event. But until Israel realizes their involvement in the root causes these occurrences will only continue.



Barney

[djv8ga]

Israel has a bunch of very interesting and historical sites. That said, Petra and Wadi Rum in Jordan are worth the trip alone. The Jordanians were very nice and pleasant people, BTW - much more so than the Israelis.
I read "The Strong Horse" by Lee Smith. He raves about Jordan & her people.

[merrylander]

In the search for the boys Israeli army has killed innocents. The BBC reported five Palestinians were killed in the search. This is a tragic very tragic event. But until Israel realizes their involvement in the root causes these occurrences will only continue.



Barney

But was any explication of how and why they were killed given? I realize most folks here seem to dislike the Israelis but Hamas are not exactly heroes murdering teen aged boys. And frankly the BBC has not always been impartial when reporting on that area.

I hope when everyone says let Israel look after themselves you realize that you are staring nuclear war in the face. If ISIS, Hamas and Hezbollah are ever successful in driving the Israelies into the sea three guesses what their last act will be, it sure as hell would be mine if I was in their shoes

[Oerets]

But was any explication of how and why they were killed given? I realize most folks here seem to dislike the Israelis but Hamas are not exactly heroes murdering teen aged boys. And frankly the BBC has not always been impartial when reporting on that area.

I hope when everyone says let Israel look after themselves you are staring nuclear war in the face. If ISIS, Hamas and Hezbollah are ever successful in driving the Israelies into the sea three guesses what their last act will be, it sure as hell would be mine if I was in their shoes

The story was the killings occurred during the searches for the three. My guess from the articles and prior history there were demonstrations and rock throwing involved. Doors getting kicked in property destruction.

But given the way the army treats the Palestinians it is easy to see things getting out of hand.



Barney

[Dondilion]

But was any explication of how and why they were killed given? I realize most folks here seem to dislike the Israelis but Hamas are not exactly heroes murdering teen aged boys. And frankly the BBC has not always been impartial when reporting on that area.

I hope when everyone says let Israel look after themselves you are staring nuclear war in the face. If ISIS, Hamas and Hezbollah are ever successful in driving the Israelies into the sea three guesses what their last act will be, it sure as hell would be mine if I was in their shoes

Nobody is driving Israelis into the sea.

The Israelis driven by religious fanatics are putting up more settlements in the West Bank which can only compound the conflict.

[finnbow]

I realize most folks here seem to dislike the Israelis but Hamas are not exactly heroes murdering teen aged boys. And frankly the BBC has not always been impartial when reporting on that area.


Disliking Israeli policy with respect to West Bank settlements is quite a bit different than disliking Israel. One can like Israel and Israelis, but dislike their settlement policy. Hell, a significant percentage of Israelis dislike their own country's settlement policy. Does that make them anti-Israel?:confused: It's also interesting to note that a significant number of the Zionist zealots who are living in the West Bank settlements are American-born Jews who have recently moved to Israel. One of the three murdered kids had dual American/Israeli citizenship, BTW.

[piece-itpete]

So Finn, it's the Road to Morocco this time 'round? :)

Pete

[finnbow]

So Finn, it's the Road to Morocco this time 'round? :)

Pete

Along with southern Spain (Andalusia) and Portugal, probably next May.

[Oerets]

Not so much an anti Israeli in general dislike on my part. Think they just need to remember another group of people were there before 1948 too. So some aspects of their treatment of the Palestinians is appalling. They are not going away and every time the army kills or wounds Palestinians another blood feud starts. When a home or land is grabbed to build another settlement more unrest.

Just think how well the WASP's will feel in the USA if and when years from now the Native Americans were to gain supremacy in votes/money/power and start taking back land!! Just how well will that go over?


Barney

[MikeG22]

The entire situation sucks. You can see both sides of the Israeli Palestinian conflict. No one has taken credit for the kidnappings yet but Hama must have something to do with it.

Israel is a beautiful area of the world. Such a shame there cannot be peaceful coexistence.

[BlueStreak]

Israeli settlement policy is dictated by Israeli extremists, who are not
looking for solutions.

Both sides are dominated by religious myths.
Hello member one1 your help is needed here. :D

And, that is the heart of it. You have two very different cultures, stuck on a relatively small piece of land that they both refuse to share. There aren't going to be any easy solutions.

To my mind, the whole thing is ridiculous as the argument is based on dueling fairytales. But, you already know how I feel about that, so I won't inflame.

Dave

[BlueStreak]

Just think how well the WASP's will feel in the USA if and when years from now the Native Americans were to gain supremacy in votes/money/power and start taking back land!! Just how well will that go over?


Barney

Ummmm......

Aren't we seeing something similar as we speak, Barney?;)

Dave

[merrylander]

Disliking Israeli policy with respect to West Bank settlements is quite a bit different than disliking Israel. One can like Israel and Israelis, but dislike their settlement policy. Hell, a significant percentage of Israelis dislike their own country's settlement policy. Does that make them anti-Israel?:confused: It's also interesting to note that a significant number of the Zionist zealots who are living in the West Bank settlements are American-born Jews who have recently moved to Israel. One of the three murdered kids had dual American/Israeli citizenship, BTW.

Back in the beginnings in the early 1900 Theodore Herzl propose creation of a "home" for the Jewish people, not a 'state". I imagine his proposal was to find a country that would welcome them.

The the League of Nations got this idea and bent it out of shape and gave Britain (under Lord Balfour) a mandate to create a home/state fot the Jewish people. Well Balfour started divvying up the parcel the League had proposed. He gave Jordan to the Hashemite Kings, the Golan heights to Syria (under French rule at the time, it was from these heights that the Syrians used to shell Israeli farmers below) and the bit that was left was supposedly where the Jews were to live,

At first they bought land from the Arabs, most of what is present day Tel Aviv was purchased. Needless to say relations between the two were not friendly but it was actually the Arabs who landed the first blows.

When Jordan invaded and took the West Bank we never heard jack shit from anyone. After the seven days war the Arabs were to have the west bank but they said we are going to push the Jews into the sea.

I guess because Lester 'Mike' Pearson got the Nobel Prize for his efforts in the area I acquired an interest in its history.

[Oerets]

We are seeing the results of other countries creating borders of convince. No thought given to the local population. Need look no further then Iraq and the end of the first world war. Ninety odd years later the countries created by Europeans are unavailing. After the second we can argue if it was guilt, no country wanting the refugees or truly
altruistic. I will never know but this can not go on forever.


The Palestinians are not going away, where would they go? Israel can never give a vote to them in fear of loosing a majority of Jewish votes. So a one state solution look impossible.


Storming in and blowing up buildings then not allowing rebuilding only creates more hatred. Suicide bombing and firing rockets also add fuel to the unrest. Both sides need to let the Mothers work this out.



Barney

[merrylander]

Most of the boundaries in the Middle East and Africa were drawn by European colonial powers with no thought given to local tribes. Now we see the hatred between the tribesmen exploding all over the place.

Mind you although they all blame the west for their predicaments 90% of it is their own doing

[MikeG22]

Clashes In Jerusalem After Body Found - http://huff.to/1qxdNgG

Looks like things will get worse before better

[finnbow]

Back in the beginnings in the early 1900 Theodore Herzl propose creation of a "home" for the Jewish people, not a 'state". I imagine his proposal was to find a country that would welcome them.

I'm keenly aware of Israel's history and have spent quite a bit of time there (and my son lives there). I have great admiration for how they have built a prosperous, industrious and (mostly) democratic nation in the heart of the world's most troubled region. That said, their settlement and collective punishment policies aren't exactly paving the way to peace within their borders.

As is true all over the world (and particularly true in the Mideast), religious zealots there continue to threaten the livelihood of everyone around them. Israel's government is all too willing to demolish the homes of families and relatives of suspected terrorists, while encouraging the illegal (even by their own laws in many cases) settlements in the West Bank. They should show their even-handedness by knocking down the houses of illegal settlers.

[merrylander]

The trouble is when they did just that in Gaza all the did was give Hamas a rocket launching site.

[Oerets]

Both sides need to figure out a solution together. Because neither is going away.

But I'm afraid it will take many many deaths in an all out war to finally get this fact to sink in.


Barney

[merrylander]

I am afraid there will not be any more peace talks since Abbas joined with Hamas and Hamas has not renounced their policies.

[djv8ga]

I am afraid there will not be any more peace talks since Abbas joined with Hamas and Hamas has not renounced their policies.
Exactly. Aligning yourself with Hamas makes you a terrorist & you deserve the beating you receive IMHO.

[piece-itpete]

I agree Barney, a decisive victory for one side or the other would be the end of it. However that is no longer politically correct. Much better to drag out the misery apparently.

Pete

[finnbow]

I am afraid there will not be any more peace talks since Abbas joined with Hamas and Hamas has not renounced their policies.

The other side of this coin is that Israel can't achieve a separate piece with one of two Palestinian factions. We openly lobbied for and supported a free and fair election in the Gaza Strip and Hamas won (unfortunately for us). In some sort of perverted way, you gotta give Mahmoud Abbas credit for unifying the Palestinians, notwithstanding the fact that the Hamas faction is more militant than we would like them to be.

Unless and until you've spent time in the West Bank, among the (illegal) Jewish settlements and next to the border wall between Israel and the West Bank, you have little clue what life in the West Bank is all about. For the most part, the Palestinians are a proud, educated and peaceful people. However, when faced with injustices they face daily (supported and largely financed by us, BTW), some of them crack and strike out with force. We openly celebrate (and have financed) such "freedom fighters" when they're engaged in proxy wars against our enemies. Now the shoe is on the other foot.

[merrylander]

The other side of this coin is that Israel can't achieve a separate piece with one of two Palestinian factions. We openly lobbied for and supported a free and fair election in the Gaza Strip and Hamas won (unfortunately for us). In some sort of perverted way, you gotta give Mahmoud Abbas credit for unifying the Palestinians, notwithstanding the fact that the Hamas faction is more militant than we would like them to be.

Unless and until you've spent time in the West Bank, among the (illegal) Jewish settlements and next to the border wall between Israel and the West Bank, you have little clue what life in the West Bank is all about. For the most part, the Palestinians are a proud, educated and peaceful people. However, when faced with injustices they face daily (supported and largely financed by us, BTW), some of them crack and strike out with force. We openly celebrate (and have financed) such "freedom fighters" when they're engaged in proxy wars against our enemies. Now the shoe is on the other foot.

Met with both while I was there, my Jewish hosts took me dining in several restaurants one just happened to be Palestinian, the perogies in the Polish one were super. The funnest was a Chinese one right downtown.

On a more sad and sober note apparently a Palestinian teen has been killed, no more details than than, So everyone is now on the merry-go-round looking for the brass ring. Dear God where will it end. Let your children develop their own prejudices and hatreds, don't teach them yours.

[finnbow]

This excerpt from Roger Cohen's NYTimes op-ed piece pretty much nails the dynamic in Israel. I highly recommend this piece for anyone wanting a glimpse into what's going on in the West Bank:

Still, it must be said that Israel, a state of laws within the pre-1967 lines, is not a state of law beyond them in the occupied West Bank, where Israeli dominion over millions of Palestinians, now almost a half-century old, involves routine coercion, humiliation and abuse to which most Israelis have grown increasingly oblivious.

What goes on beyond a long-forgotten Green Line tends only to impinge on Israeli consciousness when violence flares. Otherwise it is over the wall or barrier (choose the word that suits your politics) in places best not dwelled upon.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/04/opinion/roger-cohen-cycles-of-revenge-in-israel-and-palestine.html

Having just spent three weeks there, I can tell you that Tel Aviv is a complete bubble in the midst of all this craziness. People there even joke about how much of a bubble they live in with all the great restaurants, cafes, nightclubs, beaches, etc . You could just as well be in Barcelona or some European Mediterranean city.

[merrylander]

On the news last night the only sane voice was the father of one of the murdered Jewish teens, he said (from memory) "This is wrong, the Book says thou shall not murder. It does not say thou shall not murder a Jew, or thou shall not murder a Palestinian, or thou shall not murder a Christian. It simply says thou shall not murder."