Well there goes the economy

[merrylander]

Wall Street closed below 10,000 guess chicken little is alive and well.:rolleyes:

[doucanoe]

I think there is more to the Chicken Little effect than they would care to admit, but, I believe there are valid reasons for the lack of confidence today.

http://money.cnn.com/2010/02/04/markets/markets_newyork/index.htm?hpt=T1

Also, Janurary Jobs Report come out tomorrow and it sounds like there were a tad more losses than they had hoped for.

RC

[BlueStreak]

Yeah, it's all over now.

"Brother can you spare a dime?"

I have a friend who works in the steel industy in Ohio. He's scheduled to return to work a week from Monday, after a sixteen month layoff. The reason? A rise in demand for "structural steel products". Might this have something to do with "infrastructure" investment from the "National Reinvestment Act"? Actually, it does. And over the next three weeks about 1,100 steelworkers in Warren, Ohio will be returning to work.

Now, granted, this is just a small thing, contrasted against the immensity of the problem, which is truly global in nature. But, I'll take it.

Or maybe we should have just let the economy collapse? And let Lassez Faire economics ruin more communities and let more of Americas industrial base fall fallow?

Naw, fuck that.

Regards,
Dave

[doucanoe]

Yeah, it's all over now.

"Brother can you spare a dime?"

I have a friend who works in the steel industy in Ohio. He's scheduled to return to work a week from Monday, after a sixteen month layoff. The reason? A rise in demand for "structural steel products". Might this have something to do with "infrastructure" investment from the "National Reinvestment Act"? Actually, it does. And over the next three weeks about 1,100 steelworkers in Warren, Ohio will be returning to work.


Naw, fuck that.

Regards,
Dave



I would like to think so but even in a sour economy things get built. A lot of the state and federal projects going on right now have had monies allocated for them 2-4 years ago. Same with private sector.

National Reinvestment Act? not sure, I guess it would be helpful to know what projects they are working on and if it applies. Is he a mill guy, bridge guy or building guy. If he's a mill guy, I would imagine that an exhausted surplus because of little production would force bringing people back regardless.

Congratulations to your friend though. I'm sure he could care less why, just happy that he is working again.

RC

[BlueStreak]

He's a mill guy. He works at the same mill his father, uncle and grandfather did. It has changed hands several times over the decades, but is currently operated by Severstal, a Russian company.

Anyhow, I don't know all of the particulars, just what he told me. And he told me that it had something to do with "infrastructure projects".

Regards,
Dave

[Sandy G]

"In th' Mornin', in th' Evenin', Ain't We Got Fun ? Not much money, oh, but Honey, Ain't We Got Fun ?".....

[merrylander]

Well the jobs report was bad but expected. Since most of the business owners are Republicans they will only be hiring temps until after the elections in hopes more voters will vote their way.

[doucanoe]

He's a mill guy. He works at the same mill his father, uncle and grandfather did. It has changed hands several times over the decades, but is currently operated by Severstal, a Russian company.

Anyhow, I don't know all of the particulars, just what he told me. And he told me that it had something to do with "infrastructure projects".

Regards,
Dave

Well, whatever it is, I'm glad to hear he is back to work. Work'in beats not work'in any day.

RC

[doucanoe]

Well the jobs report was bad but expected. Since most of the business owners are Republicans they will only be hiring temps until after the elections in hopes more voters will vote their way.


Actually, I just heard on the radio (if I heard it correctly) that the national unemployment rate had dropped slightly last month but I have to read for the details.

You don't honestly believe that do you. Rob :confused: I'm curious, when you say "most business owners are Republicans", are you meaning large businesses or just business in general?

RC

[piece-itpete]

I used to sell temps help and I tells ya, Dems use temps too :p

If the porkulus bill saved or created 600,000 as claimed that's $750,000,000,000.00 divided by 600,000 = One Million Two Hundred Fifty Thousand a job.

In government-speak, a bargain.

Pete

[doucanoe]

I used to sell temps help and I tells ya, Dems use temps too :p

If the porkulus bill saved or created 600,000 as claimed that's $750,000,000,000.00 divided by 600,000 = One Million Two Hundred Fifty Thousand a job.

In government-speak, a bargain.

Pete


I hear ya. I guess the real question should be whether or not these actions are planting the seeds for further hiring or just one trick ponies. Thats the problem with some of it. Once the project is completed will there be more. If not, where did that get us. If it's a subsidized program thats funding will disappear at some point, what happens when the individual state is now fiscally responsible for maintaining it? I am hopeful that Obama really has some meat in this latest one that will promote private sector growth. If we don't have that soon, we are going to be in heap big trouble.

RC

[finnbow]

I used to sell temps help and I tells ya, Dems use temps too :p

If the porkulus bill saved or created 600,000 as claimed that's $750,000,000,000.00 divided by 600,000 = One Million Two Hundred Fifty Thousand a job.

In government-speak, a bargain.

Pete

I don't think anyone can correctly attribute any number to jobs created or saved even though the administration feels compelled to do so. Regarding the $750 billion, only a relatively small portion has been spent thus far (for better or worse).



I hear ya. I guess the real question should be whether or not these actions are planting the seeds for further hiring or just one trick ponies. Thats the problem with some of it. Once the project is completed will there be more. If not, where did that get us. If it's a subsidized program thats funding will disappear at some point, what happens when the individual state is now fiscally responsible for maintaining it? I am hopeful that Obama really has some meat in this latest one that will promote private sector growth. If we don't have that soon, we are going to be in heap big trouble.

Actually stimulus spending of this nature is intended to be a one-time "shot in the arm" taking the form of capital improvement projects in most cases. You want to create "projects" instead of "programs." Projects can be completed, government programs cannot (and spending will continue forever).

[doucanoe]

Actually stimulus spending of this nature is intended to be a one-time "shot in the arm" taking the form of capital improvement projects in most cases. You want to create "projects" instead of "programs." Projects can be completed, government programs cannot (and spending will continue forever).


True, but here in lies the problem. I'm not always sure that a good thing.

RC

[Boreas]

I don't think anyone can correctly attribute any number to jobs created or saved even though the administration feels compelled to do so. Regarding the $750 billion, only a relatively small portion has been spent thus far (for better or worse).

About a third, I think. Also some of what has been given out has been repaid.

John

[BlueStreak]

Thought bubble;

(God.............no matter what happens............if in two years unemployment is down to five percent, they'll be tellin' us it coulda been down to two percent a year ago...........if the Dow goes up 100 points, it the precurser to a crash...............if you authorize one dollar to be spent, they'll tell you it's not enough and then bitch atcha about spending the first thirteen cents................if you propose a fix for healthcare, they propose damn little, fight you every step of the way, then when damn little gets done, they blame you for it........I think, maybe, they should be glad most Liberals abhorr violence.)

Regards,
Dave

[piece-itpete]

Gosh Dave, that sounds like the Dems a couple years ago ;)

Pete

[Boreas]

Gosh Dave, that sounds like the Dems a couple years ago ;)

Pete

We weren't saying that successes were failures. We were saying that failures were failures.

John

[Fast_Eddie]

Aren't a lot of the Stimulus projects spending money on infrastructure? Personally, I believe we need to do a good deal of work. That bridge collapse in Minneapolis should have been a wake up call. A few decades of "why should I have to pay" finally brough about a frightening answer.

I still have visions of a vast American waste land where taxes are quite low. Militias roam what is left of the highway system, well armed as is their right by the second ammendment. Most government buildings in ruins. Churches, however are thriving between the skirmishes- most have snipers in the bell towers to defend from opposing religious believers. Anarchy rules the day, and somewhere (the White House long ago abandoned as an expense we don't want to pay for) Sarah Palin is President.

Its the Tea Party paradise. I'll be elsewhere.

[BlueStreak]

Aren't a lot of the Stimulus projects spending money on infrastructure? Personally, I believe we need to do a good deal of work. That bridge collapse in Minneapolis should have been a wake up call. A few decades of "why should I have to pay" finally brough about a frightening answer.

I still have visions of a vast American waste land where taxes are quite low. Militias roam what is left of the highway system, well armed as is their right by the second ammendment. Most government buildings in ruins. Churches, however are thriving between the skirmishes- most have snipers in the bell towers to defend from opposing religious believers. Anarchy rules the day, and somewhere (the White House long ago abandoned as an expense we don't want to pay for) Sarah Palin is President.

Its the Tea Party paradise. I'll be elsewhere.


You don't recall the right wing pundits blaming the Minneapolis collapse on lazy union workers and advocating cutting infrastructure funding to pro-labor blue states? I do. They went on about it for days, until something else distracted them.

Regards,
Dave

[BlueStreak]

Aren't a lot of the Stimulus projects spending money on infrastructure? Personally, I believe we need to do a good deal of work. That bridge collapse in Minneapolis should have been a wake up call. A few decades of "why should I have to pay" finally brough about a frightening answer.

I still have visions of a vast American waste land where taxes are quite low. Militias roam what is left of the highway system, well armed as is their right by the second ammendment. Most government buildings in ruins. Churches, however are thriving between the skirmishes- most have snipers in the bell towers to defend from opposing religious believers. Anarchy rules the day, and somewhere (the White House long ago abandoned as an expense we don't want to pay for) Sarah Palin is President.

Its the Tea Party paradise. I'll be elsewhere.

You forgot the cattlecars that had come for all of the illegals. and then when that happened unabated, they started looking around for whomever else they've been dying to get rid of for so long.

"Eine Volk, eine Reich, eine Fuhrer!":eek:

Regards,
Dave

[piece-itpete]

I do recall Bush being blamed for the bridge.

Very little of the stimulus is being used for infrastructure iirc.

Pete

[Fast_Eddie]

You forgot the cattlecars that had come for all of the illegals. and then when that happened unabated, they started looking around for whomever else they've been dying to get rid of for so long.


Hope you don't mind me steeling that and adding it to my rhetorical arsonal. Quite on ponit.

[Fast_Eddie]

I do recall Bush being blamed for the bridge.

Very little of the stimulus is being used for infrastructure iirc.

Pete

This article, which bashes the stimulus, says $100 Billion is going to infrastructure.

http://www.propublica.org/special/stimulus-unemployment-chart-and-map

[doucanoe]

The I35 bridge collapse was a tragedy but I don't recall any conversation about blaming it on union workers. The bridge had passed inspections but rated a 4 on a scale of 1-9 I believe with 9 being a perfect score and 0 being a complete shut down. It came down due to gusset plate failure caused by all the added stress of the work that was being done on the bridge at that time.

I hope it has changed the way in which we evaluate inspection data nationally. I don't consider maintaining infrastructure a "program", just work that needs to be done. Putting aside where we are at today, this is the kind of thing that our government dollars should be spent on. I guess other programs have been deemed more important.


RC

[piece-itpete]

Assuming the stimulus was 750 bil (I think it's 850) that's 13%. Should've been 99% imo, at least spend it on something permanent!

Gosh, you Dems love the doomsday GOP scenarios :)

Pete

[BlueStreak]

Hope you don't mind me steeling that and adding it to my rhetorical arsonal. Quite on ponit.

Have at it, Ed.

[doucanoe]

I think we should embrace all illegals and encourage more. In fact why don't we just drop the whole US citizen/Illegal Alien thing and have a dang Hootenanny! I mean after all, how dare us lay claim to any chunk of land when we are actually a global citizens of the one united planet. Line starts on the left.

Your actually comparing peoples concerns about the amount of illegals in this country and the inherent ecomomic affects to Hitlers Germany???

RC

[Fast_Eddie]

Have at it, Ed.

Thank you.

I think we should embrace all illegals and encourage more. In fact why don't we just drop the whole US citizen/Illegal Alien thing and have a dang Hootenanny! I mean after all, how dare us lay claim to any chunk of land when we are actually a global citizens of the one united planet. Line starts on the left.

Your actually comparing peoples concerns about the amount of illegals in this country and the inherent ecomomic affects to Hitlers Germany???

RC

Wow, it works really well!

[Boreas]

I think we should embrace all illegals and encourage more.

Reagan did.

Your actually comparing peoples concerns about the amount of illegals in this country and the inherent ecomomic affects to Hitlers Germany???

Joe Arpaio
Tom Tancredo
Shawna Forde

John

[BlueStreak]

I think we should embrace all illegals and encourage more. In fact why don't we just drop the whole US citizen/Illegal Alien thing and have a dang Hootenanny! I mean after all, how dare us lay claim to any chunk of land when we are actually a global citizens of the one united planet. Line starts on the left.

(Hmmmm actually that sounds pretty damn good. So long as the rest of the world does the same.)

Your actually comparing peoples concerns about the amount of illegals in this country and the inherent ecomomic affects to Hitlers Germany???

(Tongue-in-cheek humor tinged with a pinch of seriousness. It's okay when Beck does it. Right?)

RC


Regards,
Dave

[piece-itpete]

We weren't saying that successes were failures. We were saying that failures were failures.

John

Our unemployment rate is a hell of a success.

Pete

[Boreas]

Our unemployment rate is a hell of a success.

Pete

And, of course, the economic collapse Bush engineered has nothing to do with that. If Obama were any good at all he'd have fixed everything already. Fifty-five weeks in office is more than enough time.

I really, really, really hate it when Republicans try to blame others for their own failures while insisting that the way to fix those problems is to double down on the very things that got us into this mess.

John

[Fast_Eddie]

Our unemployment rate is a hell of a success.

Pete

Unemployment fell to 9.7%. Report out today.

[Boreas]

Unemployment fell to 9.7%. Report out today.

And, as was reported earlier, the economy grew by 5.7% in the last quarter of 2009.

John

[Fast_Eddie]

And, as was reported earlier, the economy grew by 5.7% in the last quarter of 2009.

John

But see that's bad. If a Republican had been in office it would have been 5.8%.

[doucanoe]

Reagan did.





Joe Arpaio
Tom Tancredo
Shawna Forde

John


Yes, but one has to remember that we had what, 2-3 million illegals in country at that time. He also called for legislation to counter the incentives by applying huge fines to employers that employ illegals. Today the numbers are estimated at somewhere between 10-and 20 million. I guess it didn't work too well.

I have no problem with legal immigration to this country.


A tough Sheriff
An over reaching state house member
An unfortunate incident that should not have happened.

RC

[doucanoe]

Regards,
Dave

Ok by me! I just wasn't sure where exactly you were coming from.

RC

[Boreas]

Yes, but one has to remember that we had what, 2-3 million illegals in country at that time. He also called for legislation to counter the incentives by applying huge fines to employers that employ illegals. Today the numbers are estimated at somewhere between 10-and 20 million. I guess it didn't work too well.

So, you don't think Reagan's amnesty actually encouraged illegal immigration? And you don't think his giving only lip service to employer sanctions was a cop-out (for which I blame both parties)?

A tough Sheriff

A racist with open ties to white supremacist groups whose department systematically harrasses brown people in his county.

An over reaching state house member

Is overreaching the way they describe racism now?

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/tea-party-fireworks-speaker-tom-tancredo-rips-mccain/story?id=9751718

Tancredo was a Republican US Congressman and candidate for the 2008 nomination for president.

An unfortunate incident that should not have happened.

Not just one incident and not just one person. Forde was connected intimately with the Minuteman Movement.

John

[merrylander]

Actually, I just heard on the radio (if I heard it correctly) that the national unemployment rate had dropped slightly last month but I have to read for the details.

You don't honestly believe that do you. Rob :confused: I'm curious, when you say "most business owners are Republicans", are you meaning large businesses or just business in general?

RC

Let me put it this way, I have worked small, non-profit medium and large since arriving here in '84. I met damn few owners that I would describe as liberals.

[piece-itpete]

The Great Alibi (aka Bush). George Will

If the economy is growing then why don't we rein in the porkulus bill?

Pete

[Boreas]

The Great Alibi (aka Bush). George Will

Numbers don't lie, Pete. the economy was in the shitter when Bush left office. Will is a conservative and a staunch Bush defender, not credible on the subject.

If the economy is growing then why don't we rein in the porkulus bill?

Well, it's a valid point for discussion. There are well-regarded economists who would support your view but there are others who would say that more stimulus spending is necessary to maintain and accelerate the recovery.

I don't know which, if either, view is correct.

John

[piece-itpete]

It would certainly put some reality in Obamas call for deficit attention.

Pete

[merrylander]

Aren't a lot of the Stimulus projects spending money on infrastructure? Personally, I believe we need to do a good deal of work. That bridge collapse in Minneapolis should have been a wake up call. A few decades of "why should I have to pay" finally brough about a frightening answer.


I could never understand what this country has against pre-stressed concerete, the Dutch can put up bridges in a third of the time it takes here. They don't need painting every four or five years. They don't suffer the potential for hidden damage when the concrete decks get poured in bad weather. The don't even need to go to The Netherlands for advice, most bridges in Quebec have been built with pre-stressed concrete since the 60s.

[Fast_Eddie]

If the economy is growing then why don't we rein in the porkulus bill?

If you believe the bill and spending are what is driving the growth, why would you pull back?

It's the corollary to the Republican argument that "you can't raise taxes *now*, we're in a recession".

[westgate]

I think we should embrace all illegals and encourage more. In fact why don't we just drop the whole US citizen/Illegal Alien thing and have a dang Hootenanny! I mean after all, how dare us lay claim to any chunk of land when we are actually a global citizens of the one united planet. Line starts on the left.

Your actually comparing peoples concerns about the amount of illegals in this country and the inherent ecomomic affects to Hitlers Germany???

RC

this 'chunk of land' still belongs to native americans, imo. us honkies and our ilk have no business even being in north america in the first place.

[piece-itpete]

No one knows what drives the recovery. Cracks me up, Obama talking deficit reduction, reminds me of the election! ;)

Pete

[Boreas]

It would certainly put some reality in Obamas call for deficit attention.

Pete

Okay, Larry, whatever. ;)

John

[doucanoe]

So, you don't think Reagan's amnesty actually encouraged illegal immigration? And you don't think his giving only lip service to employer sanctions was a cop-out (for which I blame both parties)?

A racist with open ties to white supremacist groups whose department systematically harrasses brown people in his county.

Is overreaching the way they describe racism now?

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/tea-party-fireworks-speaker-tom-tancredo-rips-mccain/story?id=9751718

Tancredo was a Republican US Congressman and candidate for the 2008 nomination for president.



Not just one incident and not just one person. Forde was connected intimately with the Minuteman Movement.

John

I believe I noted that Reagan' actions didn't work out too well.


How would do you want me to respond in regard to your original post, John. If you want to conveniently turn this in to a race thing ( I could see it going there and I was correct, again) for your argument then fine' I just don't want to play along. To point out a handful of sad realities for your argument then fine, I don't wish to play along. It's too easy to divert attention from issues by dropping the race bomb.

I am curious as to what you believe should be done about it. My immediate guess would be, nothing.

RC

[doucanoe]

Let me put it this way, I have worked small, non-profit medium and large since arriving here in '84. I met damn few owners that I would describe as liberals.

Well, I guess were are screwed then. If they're all of the evil conservative type. I'm not sure there are enough for profit or non-profits run by compassionate liberals who will hire regardless of business climate for all of us to work for.

If what you say is true, I honestly wonder why that is. Maybe the realities of running a business (large or small) make these individuals see things in a different light.

RC

[HatchetJack]

Conservatives are good at making money and liberals are good at spending it.
Or stealing it.

[westgate]

Conservatives are good at making money and even better at stealing it.

i fixed it for ya. :D

[merrylander]

As a conservative I take exception to the use of that term for Republicans unless someone can show me something they have conserved.

[HatchetJack]

Try the greatest economy the world has ever known. Sure cant give credit
to the libs who are constantly trying to tear it down so they can have free
health care and checks in the mail.

[noonereal]

Try the greatest economy the world has ever known. Sure cant give credit
to the libs who are constantly trying to tear it down so they can have free
health care and checks in the mail.

:rolleyes: I got nothin'

just no point

[BlueStreak]

Try the greatest economy the world has ever known. Sure cant give credit
to the libs who are constantly trying to tear it down so they can have free
health care and checks in the mail.

Bullshit.

Regards,
Dave

[finnbow]

Try the greatest economy the world has ever known. Sure cant give credit
to the libs who are constantly trying to tear it down so they can have free
health care and checks in the mail.

There's nothing left for the Lib's to tear down, even if they wanted to. Dubya and his minions took full advantage of their wrecking license.

[merrylander]

Try the greatest economy the world has ever known. Sure cant give credit
to the libs who are constantly trying to tear it down so they can have free
health care and checks in the mail.

Really? So that is why the bridges are falling down, roads look like something you would find in Baghdad, they can't keep the power on in a 10 MPH breeze? That's conservation? I think not.

No one wants free health care and you know it, we are just tired of being screwed by foreign pharmaceutical companies and the disease insurance industry. Jeez, you would think an American government would protect its own people from a bunch of rapacious foreigners, but no. All they do is say "Come on AstraZenica, Novartis, Bayer, GlaxoSmithKlien, away you go they are all yours, ripe for the picking".

Funny thing was when I was still lecturing in Europe those 'socialist' roads were smoother than a baby's bottom and the lights stayed on. I could get from A to B easily and comfortably with or without a car. People queud up at the bus stops, no pushing and shoving.

[BlueStreak]

This is why we must privatize the roads and highway systems. So that every time you return home from a long trip, the various owners of each piece of road you used can send you a bill.

Sound good to you, Rob?

Dave

[merrylander]

Sounds exactly like the good old days of the robber barons, yipee, let's all go back to the Middle Ages.

[Boreas]

Sounds exactly like the good old days of the robber barons, yipee, let's all go back to the Middle Ages.

"The Gilded Age" will do nicely. Laissez faire capitalism's finest hour. :(

John

A "summer cottage" at Newport, RI built by the Vanderbilts.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/The_Breakers_Newport.jpg/300px-The_Breakers_Newport.jpg

[piece-itpete]

A "summer cottage" at Newport, RI built by the Vanderbilts.


How's that stack up against the Kennedys?

Pete

[Boreas]

How's that stack up against the Kennedys?

Pete

Kennedy Compound - Hyannis Port, MA
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c3/Kennedy-compound-nat-park-serv.jpg/250px-Kennedy-compound-nat-park-serv.jpg

John

[BlueStreak]

The Vanderbilt "Winter Home", Asheville, North Carolina.

I guess all that cheap "Coolie" (Chinese) labor really paid off for old Cornelius?

Dave

[piece-itpete]

Kennedy Compound - Hyannis Port, MA
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c3/Kennedy-compound-nat-park-serv.jpg/250px-Kennedy-compound-nat-park-serv.jpg

John

Oh. Well, that's obviously the cottage of the working man ;)

Pete

[Boreas]

How's that stack up against the Kennedys?

Pete

Are you getting the idea, Pete? The grotesque displays of wealth by the robber barons during the gilded age stand apart from anything we've ever seen in this country (so far).

Here are just a few more of the many summer "cottages" (they really called them that) at Newport.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/Marble_House%2C_Newport%2C_Rhode_Island_edit1.jpg/250px-Marble_House%2C_Newport%2C_Rhode_Island_edit1.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/The_Elms%2C_Newport%2C_Rhode_Island_-_View_from_Great_Lawn_edit1.jpg/250px-The_Elms%2C_Newport%2C_Rhode_Island_-_View_from_Great_Lawn_edit1.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f5/Belcourt1895.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d9/CareyMansion.jpg/248px-CareyMansion.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Kingscote%2C_Newport%2C_RI.jpg/250px-Kingscote%2C_Newport%2C_RI.jpg

John

[BlueStreak]

And now for some contrast.

Worker housing during "The Gilded Age".

Dave

[piece-itpete]

Worker housing today (to compare to Kennedy's place today):

[BlueStreak]

More fine examples.......

One taken in Pennsylvania, and one in Louisiana.

Nice digs, Huh? This is "unfettered capitalism", Bro.........

Dave

[BlueStreak]

Worker housing today (to compare to Kennedy's place today):

Those places look quite a bit older that "today", Dawg. My guess is they went up about the same time as "Biltmore" and "San Simeon".

Dave

[piece-itpete]

Inner city Brooklyn. Blue collar folks can't buy NEW houses, for sure!

Pete

[BlueStreak]

San Simeon.

Gosh, we need to get back to those "Good Ole Days" when a ruthless tyrant
like W.H.Hearst could live like a European Monarch, right here in the U.S.A....

Dave

[Boreas]

Those places look quite a bit older that "today", Dawg. My guess is they went up about the same time as "Biltmore" and "San Simeon".

Dave

Yes, late 19th century. Some of them may have been pretty nice single family homes; nice stone work cornices and lintels but they're tenements now. The folks those places were built for now liver in McMansions in the 'burbs.

I lived in a house like that in Baltimore. It was really nice - except for the occasional gunfire outside. :(

John

[BlueStreak]

Yes, late 29th century. Some of them may have been pretty nice single family homes; nice stone work cornices and lintels but they're tenements now. The folks those places were built for now liver in McMansions in the 'burbs.

I lived in a house like that in Baltimore. It was really nice - except for the occasional gunfire outside. :(

John

I think you mean 19th century, John. But who knows, maybe the 29th Century will look this way. Or like a scene from Mad Max............

Dave

[BlueStreak]

Inner city Brooklyn. Blue collar folks can't buy NEW houses, for sure!

Pete


And why is that? It couldn't be because "market forces" drove housing prices into the strattosphere while wages stagnated could it?

Dave

[Boreas]

I think you mean 19th century, John.

Buck Rogers! ;) Yeah, I spotted that typo too. Oh, well!

But who knows, maybe the 29th Century will look this way. Or like a scene from Mad Max............

Dave

[Boreas]

Inner city Brooklyn. Blue collar folks can't buy NEW houses, for sure!

Pete

After 30 years of Conservative economic policy it's not just blue collar folks that can't afford to buy a home....... anywhere.

When the hell are you people going to look at what got us into this mess in the first place instead of just trying to hang it on the current occupant of the WH?

W A K E U P !

John

[piece-itpete]

After 30 years of Conservative economic policy it's not just blue collar folks that can't afford to buy a home....... anywhere.

When the hell are you people going to look at what got us into this mess in the first place instead of just trying to hang it on the current occupant of the WH?

W A K E U P !

John

Wha, who, ohhhhh...

Thanks for waking me up. Now I see. It was Reagans fault.

Pete

PS - Just WHO does Obama have running the economy? Same old, same old.

[Boreas]

Wha, who, ohhhhh...

Thanks for waking me up. Now I see. It was Reagans fault.

Sorta. It's the fault of Conservative economic policies begun under Reagan and continued under every president since. Yes, that includes Clinton and, it seems, Obama.

PS - Just WHO does Obama have running the economy? Same old, same old.

And most of us on the Left are none too thrilled about that.

Look, this can't continue to be about "our guy vs. your guy" (or "gal"). We've gotta get past that if anything is gonna get fixed.

John

[Boreas]

San Simeon.

Gosh, we need to get back to those "Good Ole Days" when a ruthless tyrant
like W.H.Hearst could live like a Republican
Plutocrat, right here in the U.S.A....

Dave

Fixed it for you.

San Simeon is about 200 miles down the coast from me. Amazing place!

But not in a good way.

John

[piece-itpete]

Look, this can't continue to be about "our guy vs. your guy" (or "gal"). We've gotta get past that if anything is gonna get fixed.
John

How is there going to be agreement when two parties are diametrically opposed on an issue?

Pete

[Fast_Eddie]

Thanks for waking me up. Now I see. It was Reagans fault.

Um. Well. Yes.

[Boreas]

How is there going to be agreement when two parties are diametrically opposed on an issue?

Pete

Is this a serious question?

John

[BlueStreak]

Fixed it for you.

San Simeon is about 200 miles down the coast from me. Amazing place!

But not in a good way.

John

I live only a couple hundred or so from Biltmore. They have a winery there that markets it's wine all over the region. It's not bad wine. (But for a local winery nothing touches Virginias own Horton.) The house is unbeleiveable. I have to admit, I like those old castles. Which is really what they are. But I also know what those guys put others through so they could accrue such amazing wealth. No thanks.

Dave

[BlueStreak]

How is there going to be agreement when two parties are diametrically opposed on an issue?

Pete

Well, the way I see it, Pete, is that the whole idea behind a two party system is that somewhere between the opposing views is a "Happy medium" of sorts, a give and take kinda deal. Problem is, people have gotten hardheaded and decided that their way is the only way, and they seek an "all or nothing" scenario. This absolutely kills the spirit of negotiation and any hope that agreement will ever be reached.

In other words, the problem is arrogance and self-righteousness. Jackasses who think they have been ordained to rule by the Almighty himself, and that anyone who opposes them is obviously an agent of the "The Great Horned One"---Satan.:eek:

Does that help any?

Dave

[piece-itpete]

Is this a serious question?

John

Well, the way I see it, Pete, is that the whole idea behind a two party system is that somewhere between the opposing views is a "Happy medium" of sorts, a give and take kinda deal. Problem is, people have gotten hardheaded and decided that their way is the only way, and they seek an "all or nothing" scenario. This absolutely kills the spirit of negotiation and any hope that agreement will ever be reached.

In other words, the problem is arrogance and self-righteousness. Jackasses who think they have been ordained to rule by the Almighty himself, and that anyone who opposes them is obviously an agent of the "The Great Horned One"---Satan.:eek:

Does that help any?

Dave

I didn't realise we were talking about Hillary :p

Heck we're pretty close. Take any thorny issue, say immigration. It's been so demagogued by both sides - and is an emotional hotbutton - that when serious folks try to look at what's really happening, and attempt to design a system that reflects the interests of parties involved, it's screamed down by both sides.

Then there is the actual cut and dry issues like abortion where there really is a largely a or b choice.

What I mean is there are a number of issues that folks disagree on. And what happens, again both parties, is the other side says THEY'RE NOT BEING REASONABLE instead of understanding that intellegent folks can disagree.

Pete

[merrylander]

Really? And who might be these intelligent folks you are talking about? Inquiring minds want to know.;)

[piece-itpete]

Well I figure 3-1/2 here :)

Just trying to start an argument! Lolol.

Pete

[merrylander]

I now know why we are in trouble. Last night we were watching the PBS show Nightly Business Report that follows the Newshour. Susie was interviewing some big shot economist (whose name escapes me) regarding Wall Street's panic over world debt. So they focused on Greece which is apparently about to declare banckruptcy. He kept repeating that we should be concerned because they were our biggest trading partner. Greece? I looked at my wife and wondered aloud "What planet is this jerk from?"

Maybe our biggest tradiing partner in the Ouzo market.

[BlueStreak]

Kalamata Olives and Feta Cheese. The entire world economy would collapse with out them.

Dave

[BlueStreak]

And why is that? It couldn't be because "market forces" drove housing prices into the strattosphere while wages stagnated could it?

Dave


Still haven't answered this question, Pete.

Dave

[piece-itpete]

Easy availability of credit (and prosperity)(and increased population). Home loans (any loans!) were way different. Look at the car payment.

And most are better off as well.

Simplistic and not complete - and I'm no expert :)

Pete

[merrylander]

Easy availability of credit (and prosperity)(and increased population). Home loans (any loans!) were way different. Look at the car payment.

And most are better off as well.

Simplistic and not complete - and I'm no expert :)

Pete

I recall the first car loan I ever received, back in Quebec. No hassle it was a small bank branch and the manager knew me, no stinking credit bureaus involved. As I paid off the loan the interest portion dropped because it was based on the outstanding balance. Now here car loans are like mortgage loans and the interest is constant - this is an improvement?:confused:

[BlueStreak]

Easy availability of credit (and prosperity)(and increased population). Home loans (any loans!) were way different. Look at the car payment.

And most are better off as well.

Simplistic and not complete - and I'm no expert :)

Pete

Really? Had nothing to do with "flipping" and the unrealistic rise in home values? In eight years my house went from being valued at $87k to $193k.
Did incomes rise to keep pace with that? Uh, no.

It was good for me 'cuz I owned two homes. So, I sold that one, and moved back into this one, and pocketed the difference. But the woman who bought that house went bankrupt trying to pay for it, and now it sits empty. Has been for the last two years.

The problem as I saw it in my area, was that the homes simply reached the point where people could no longer afford them. I started hearing a lot of people saying, "We'd like to move to a bigger home, but who in the hell can afford it?" Shortly after that, the homes stopped selling. We have one of the best unemployment rates in the country---so that's not it. The prosperity is there, the jobs are there. The things are just too damned expensive.

Regards,
Dave