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sanford12
01-23-2015, 07:53 PM
Is it time to put aside religion. We've all heard the definition of insanity. Doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. I think 5000-6000 years is a good enough track record to prove it doesn't work except to hold back the advancement of the human race with close mindedness. It's not needed for morality. Anyone can be moral and most people are born that way. I just wish religion would get out of the way and let the human race fulfill it's potential.

Dondilion
01-23-2015, 08:58 PM
As long as there are enough people seeking a god to explain our existence
religion will remain a powerful force.

And a god is the easiest answer in every society both ancient and modern to the complexities of man's existence.

sanford12
01-23-2015, 09:24 PM
Science and knowledge is the natural fact based progression from unproven deities and faith based belief. Hopefully it's sway(religion) will diminish. The explanation for our existence is already there and doesn't need mysticism to muck things up like the nut bag with the museum where children are depicted riding dinosaurs. The bible was written by people who didn't have the knowledge or means to interpret events or phenomenon and some were just plain crazy. It is very easy to relinquish responsibility and just put it all on the shoulders of something else. For me the thought of that is quite chilling.

bobabode
01-23-2015, 09:39 PM
Hiya Sanford. Good thread and I'm a son of a preacher man and a non church goin' nominal Methodist. ;)

Love the Ed Murrow avatar btw.

hillbilly
01-23-2015, 09:50 PM
If not for the Bible, and as many people fearing burning in hell as there are, how many people would go out and kill others rather than let the law handle it if they knew for a fact there was no God to answer to? Hell, just look how bad some groups act from the middle east .. they act out much different than Christians. Would you want to take it all away, and everyone live in a free for all world where nobody feared any consequence for their actions?

bobabode
01-23-2015, 10:00 PM
If not for the Bible, and as many people fearing burning in hell as there are, how many people would go out and kill others rather than let the law handle it if they knew for a fact there was no God to answer to? Hell, just look how bad some groups act from the middle east .. they act out much different than Christians. Would you want to take it all away, and everyone live in a free for all world where nobody feared any consequence for their actions?

I dunno, those Christians have showed some pretty barbaric tendencies in the not all that distant past. Burnings at the stake and such.

sanford12
01-23-2015, 10:34 PM
If not for the Bible, and as many people fearing burning in hell as there are, how many people would go out and kill others rather than let the law handle it if they knew for a fact there was no God to answer to? Hell, just look how bad some groups act from the middle east .. they act out much different than Christians. Would you want to take it all away, and everyone live in a free for all world where nobody feared any consequence for their actions?I don't think very many. Most people are basically good. Our instincts are to work together. It's kind of built in. I think you be surprised how many so called christians would resort to barbarism against other groups without a police force to hold them in check. There's always that bad egg ready to stir the pot. The thought of jail is a much bigger deterrent

hillbilly
01-23-2015, 10:40 PM
I dunno, those Christians have showed some pretty barbaric tendencies in the not all that distant past. Burnings at the stake and such.

Oh yes, indeed there were and are hypocrites no doubt. Some far worse than others. But theres more good than bad Christians by far, IMO.

sanford12
01-23-2015, 10:47 PM
Hiya Sanford. Good thread and I'm a son of a preacher man and a non church goin' nominal Methodist. ;)

Love the Ed Murrow avatar btw.What's up bobabode? Thanks. Mr. Murrow is a hero to me and someone to look up to and seems appropriate for this forum. Been meaning to get over here for sometime. Much easier to have a civilized discussion about hot topics here. Face to face people tend to get out of hand. Typing helps slows things down and get your thoughts in line.

sanford12
01-23-2015, 10:48 PM
But theres more good than bad Christians by far, IMO.
I believe that too.

Tom Joad
01-23-2015, 11:41 PM
It's slowly losing it's influence.

http://www.alternet.org/belief/shocking-number-americans-under-30-have-no-religion-country-going-change

Americans are abandoning organized religion in droves. Data from the Public Religion Research Institute shows that while only 7 percent of Americans were raised outside a religious tradition, nearly 19 percent are religiously unaffiliated today. According to the General Social Survey, the number of Americans who say they have “no religion” has more than doubled since 1990.

This is even more true in the more civilized areas of the world such as western Europe. But don't look for it to die out completely. The Human race will always have a certain percentage of fruitcakes.

bobabode
01-24-2015, 12:00 AM
Oh yes, indeed there were and are hypocrites no doubt. Some far worse than others. But theres more good than bad Christians by far, IMO.

This may be controversial to some but I also believe that by far most Muslims are good folk who don't condone the violent acts of the few.

bobabode
01-24-2015, 12:06 AM
What's up bobabode? Thanks. Been meaning to get over here for sometime. Much easier to have a civilized discussion about hot topics here. Face to face people tend to get out of hand. Typing helps slows things down and get your thoughts in line.

Same old, same old. Just listening to my old Maggotbox tube amps wearing this T shirt...;)
http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/picture.php?pictureid=13998&albumid=2122&dl=1330061801&thumb=1

noonereal
01-24-2015, 06:31 AM
If not for the Bible, and as many people fearing burning in hell as there are, how many people would go out and kill others rather than let the law handle it if they knew for a fact there was no God to answer to?

In the history of the world, I am guessing, none.

JJIII
01-24-2015, 07:24 AM
What's up bobabode? Thanks. Been meaning to get over here for sometime. Much easier to have a civilized discussion about hot topics here. Face to face people tend to get out of hand. Typing helps slows things down and get your thoughts in line.

For some people. Not so much for some others.;)

merrylander
01-24-2015, 07:49 AM
I don't think very many. Most people are basically good. Our instincts are to work together. It's kind of built in. I think you be surprised how many so called christians would resort to barbarism against other groups without a police force to hold them in check. There's always that bad egg ready to stir the pot. The thought of jail is a much bigger deterrent

I admire your faith in humanity, however having lived long I find that it is misplaced. Also you seem to be equating the current lot of churches with belief in some higher power. It has been our experience that the majority of churches are the last places to look.;)

merrylander
01-24-2015, 07:55 AM
If not for the Bible, and as many people fearing burning in hell as there are, how many people would go out and kill others rather than let the law handle it if they knew for a fact there was no God to answer to? Hell, just look how bad some groups act from the middle east .. they act out much different than Christians. Would you want to take it all away, and everyone live in a free for all world where nobody feared any consequence for their actions?


Dave we don't have to fear Hell, it is right here now. Go into any supermarket and watch the young women mistreat older folk. Any possibility that people today possess any social graces is remote in the extreme. Drive your car a few miles and observe your fellow motorists, and you don't dare admonish them as they may be armed.

merrylander
01-24-2015, 08:02 AM
So the Bible is bunk is it, let's see first book of John chapter 4 verse 8 - "He that knows not love knows not God, for God is love." Hmm, that does not sound so terrible. Then what Paul wrote to the people in Corinth - "And though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels but have not love I am as a sounding brass or tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not love, I am nothing."

Strikes me that someone who loves would make a better neighbor than one who hates or is indifferent,

YMMV

merrylander
01-24-2015, 08:14 AM
I don't think very many. Most people are basically good. Our instincts are to work together. It's kind of built in.

I have no idea where you live but I sincerely doubt that it is here in the US of A.:rolleyes:

sanford12
01-24-2015, 08:23 AM
I admire your faith in humanity, however having lived long I find that it is misplaced. Also you seem to be equating the current lot of churches with belief in some higher power. It has been our experience that the majority of churches are the last places to look.;)
I'm not a believer in organized religion but I am in the majority of peoples goodness. This doesn't keep me from carrying protection in areas I deem sketchy. I think you have me by a bit in age but I'm 60 and have seen enough to know that good people of any race/religion can show up in completely unexpected places. I seem to have become less of a cynic as I age, not bad for a natural born introvert. I also think you find what your looking for and the bad seems to be what your seeing. We're looking at things from 2 different perspectives. Bible verses are all well and good if that's what you believe. I have a different view of the world, for lack of a better word I think this may be heaven. If I were to go tomorrow I couldn't bitch. It's been a wonderful life.

BlueStreak
01-24-2015, 08:26 AM
If not for the Bible, and as many people fearing burning in hell as there are, how many people would go out and kill others rather than let the law handle it if they knew for a fact there was no God to answer to? Hell, just look how bad some groups act from the middle east .. they act out much different than Christians. Would you want to take it all away, and everyone live in a free for all world where nobody feared any consequence for their actions?

Yes, without religious brainwashing how would we keep people under control?

(Or convince them that killing is what "God" wants them to do?)

I think you get the picture, Dave. You just don't get the whole picture.

Dave

merrylander
01-24-2015, 08:50 AM
I'm not a believer in organized religion but I am in the majority of peoples goodness. This doesn't keep me from carrying protection in areas I deem sketchy. I think you have me by a bit in age but I'm 60 and have seen enough to know that good people of any race/religion can show up in completely unexpected places. I seem to have become less of a cynic as I age, not bad for a natural born introvert. I also think you find what your looking for and the bad seems to be what your seeing. We're looking at things from 2 different perspectives. Bible verses are all well and good if that's what you believe. I have a different view of the world, for lack of a better word I think this may be heaven. If I were to go tomorrow I couldn't bitch. It's been a wonderful life.

I have no plans on going anytime soon since no one could possibly love my Florence as well as I do. We have had 32 blissfully happy years and I want a few more.

An example of why I seem cynical, Florence and I met in a hotel lobby in the east coast blizzard of Feb 11/12 1983. She was a widow I was divorced. Some guy who claimed to be a friend of her late husband tried to hit on her. I simply offered her my protection for the rest of the night. So I got the night clerk to find us two chairs and we sat and talked throughout the night. In the morning we had breakfast exchanged addresses, shook hands and parted, she for home me for the airport and Canada. We wrote to each other, found love and married - all over a handshake. She later told me in a letter that she could not get over the fact that I protected her all that night and did not ask anything in return, that had never been her experience up until that night. That was simply the way I was raised, but I find few men like that these days. So I am just an old fashioned individual.:)

icenine
01-24-2015, 09:04 AM
If not for the Bible, and as many people fearing burning in hell as there are, how many people would go out and kill others rather than let the law handle it if they knew for a fact there was no God to answer to? Hell, just look how bad some groups act from the middle east .. they act out much different than Christians. Would you want to take it all away, and everyone live in a free for all world where nobody feared any consequence for their actions?

You are not serious are you? I mean the Holocaust and terrorism are just two arguments out of millions that disprove this theory. Then there is the other side of the coin where man commits atrocities believing God is on their side, or more cynically, victims are apostates so their lives do not matter, religion being an justification for almost any form of inhumanity. ISIS is just one example.

Perhaps on an individual level fear of hell probably influences millions. Get a few people together and a political or financial motive however and that fear goes out the window. Plus in an extreme Calvinist idea of pre-destination it would not matter what one did on Earth if God has already decided your fate in the afterlife. I think there was a sect of this offshoot of Calvinism either in early colonial America or early modern Europe who practiced a sort of hedonism based on this but I could be confusing these with the ancient Hedonists. It is early.

sanford12
01-24-2015, 09:16 AM
I have no plans on going anytime soon since no one could possibly love my Florence as well as I do. We have had 32 blissfully happy years and I want a few more.

An example of why I seem cynical, Florence and I met in a hotel lobby in the east coast blizzard of Feb 11/12 1983. She was a widow I was divorced. Some guy who claimed to be a friend of her late husband tried to hit on her. I simply offered her my protection for the rest of the night. So I got the night clerk to find us two chairs and we sat and talked throughout the night. In the morning we had breakfast exchanged addresses, shook hands and parted, she for home me for the airport and Canada. We wrote to each other, found love and married - all over a handshake. She later told me in a letter that she could not get over the fact that I protected her all that night and did not ask anything in return, that had never been her experience up until that night. That was simply the way I was raised, but I find few men like that these days. So I am just an old fashioned individual.:)




I fell for my wife the first time I saw her. After we were together there were guys I knew and former boy friends that wanted to break us up and date her. I didn't let that shape me in a negative way but it's my nature to let things roll off my back. 6 months later we were married by a judge with a secretary who was typing the whole time as a witness. Both of us non-believers and married 40 years with 3 great kids that had no problem without religion. One even had one of his christain friends ask how he could be do moral and not religious. There's a problem lot's of religious people have is they think they have the moral high ground just because of a belief they have that some one else doesn't hold. Anyway. Sounds like we both found happiness and that's a great thing. Many happy years to you and your wife sir.

Oerets
01-24-2015, 09:20 AM
My experiences with religion is a simple one. It has little effect on a strong willed persons ability to do the right or wrong thing. Just the easily swayed.

So will always be around in one shape or another to control the masses. Even the Nazis came up with a mythology to confuse and use.



Barney

piece-itpete
01-24-2015, 09:24 AM
Hello sanford, nice to meet you.

What's up bobabode? Thanks. Been meaning to get over here for sometime. Much easier to have a civilized discussion about hot topics here. Face to face people tend to get out of hand. Typing helps slows things down and get your thoughts in line.

Wait a while :o

Pete

BlueStreak
01-24-2015, 09:39 AM
My experiences with religion is a simple one. It has little effect on a strong willed persons ability to do the right or wrong thing. Just the easily swayed.

So will always be around in one shape or another to control the masses. Even the Nazis came up with a mythology to confuse and use.



Barney

Exactly. I've met committed Atheists in strong, long term relationships and so-called church-going "Christians" who can't keep their pants up. I've know and still know quite a few people who are deeply religious and it's a good thing.......because every time they "fall out of grace", they fall hard. Drugs, sex, crime, you name it........Without the threat of eternal damnation and the promise of heavenly reward, these morons simply lose control of themselves.

IMO, religion is only good if you need it and it isn't being used to brainwash you into doing horrible things. I'm taking a wild guess that most people don't really need it for much. Unless it's their way of attributing the good and bad things in their lives to a "higher power".

I personally believe;

1). Shit happens. Sometimes good, sometimes bad, but I don't believe for a second that it's part of any divine or sinister "plan". And whatever doesn't just happen, is caused either by good people, assholes or the wind, water, heat or gravity.

2). If there is a God, he obviously doesn't care. Look at what good waiting for "Gods" rescue did to save millions of people buried in mass graves by tyrants around the world or all of those praying for salvation during natural catastrophes.......... None, Zip, Zero, Zilch, Nada. Dead as a door nail, many suffering horribly in the process.

3). Smart people rarely do stupid things, not because some holy book told them not to, but because doing stupid things is stupid.

But, that's just my viewpoint.

Dave

piece-itpete
01-24-2015, 09:58 AM
Most who think the Bible is either anti-intellectual and or a good tool for controlling people haven't read it (I strongly rec Jesus's conversations with Pilate for politically-minded people particularly). There is a reason the renaissance followed/partnered with the printing press, classical works along with the ubiquitous and no need for name 'Book': Bible.

As the last century has shown, whenever you toss out right and wrong and go for 'situational ethics' people tend to die in large numbers.

Pete

sanford12
01-24-2015, 10:00 AM
Hello sanford, nice to meet you.



Wait a while :o

Pete
Hi Pete.
It can always get ugly, There's a lot of people here from Audio Karma and they're a good bunch and I've had some differences over there. It happens.
Deep breath. Exhale. Relax.;)

piece-itpete
01-24-2015, 10:07 AM
Everyone, get sanford!!

:D

Pete

merrylander
01-24-2015, 10:22 AM
My experiences with religion is a simple one. It has little effect on a strong willed persons ability to do the right or wrong thing. Just the easily swayed.

So will always be around in one shape or another to control the masses. Even the Nazis came up with a mythology to confuse and use.

Barney

Barney some people are control freaks and they manage without religion as a tool. I recall summat about Kool Aid in South America. The one thing that I have learned, well two things actually, first we have free will so whatever happens to us is usually our own fault or just happenstance. The second thing was what He called the second greatest commandment* is quite true - love your neighbor as yourself. Now think about that - most people really don't love themselves and so cannot love others. So you see what the shrinks call projection - people will assume that others will act toward them as they themselves would. Now loving yourself does not mean being blind to one's own faults - but at least you know they are faults and so don't project them onto others.

* I have often wondered why we call them commandments, I mean who is going to enforce them, beyond 'Thou shalt not murder'. :)

Another thing is this idea that the Old Testament is God's word - he did not fax it down. It is mostly allegorical and historical. You don't actually believe Adam and Eve were the first surely. Note that every artists painting of Adam and Eve shows both with navels - really?

Actually that story was the first example of misogyny. Blame it all on poor Eve.:rolleyes:

Rajoo
01-24-2015, 10:53 AM
Religion has been a unifying force for societies for centuries. But once unified and indoctrinated, religions are quite effective in promoting discord and eventual wars between people of different beliefs. And this cycle repeats. It is at it's worst usually when there are wars between factions of the same religion.

Also for a religious faith to take hold, one needs a strong document that people will take at face value without discourse. This is usually not easy without certain brainwashing and guilt trips. Most people that quote the Bible or the Koran do so expecting you not to challenge what is written and can seldom explain why. "It says so in the book" is the end of it. Try asking who wrote it?

So in the end, religions were meant to unite people but ends up dividing and leading to conflicts. Yet it is also an effective stick in countries with poor educational levels. Or without it, anarchy will prevail. "God will punish you" is a very effective tool.

I am and have been a practicing atheist but it has been more of a defense mechanism than an answer.

whell
01-24-2015, 10:55 AM
Of course there are extremists on both ends of the spectrum of the religious debate that give their respective causes a black eye. The folks in the middle are caught up in the damage caused by the folks on the extremes who can't seem to embrace the concept of "live and let live". For example, while you might admire his conviction, here's an example of someone who can't "live and let live":

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2015/01/24/west-mich-towns-riled-atheists-crusade/22253013/

As far as religious types who don't get it, one need look no further than what's going on in Iraq and Syria.

Rajoo
01-24-2015, 11:16 AM
Of course there are extremists on both ends of the spectrum of the religious debate that give their respective causes a black eye. The folks in the middle are caught up in the damage caused by the folks on the extremes who can't seem to embrace the concept of "live and let live". For example, while you might admire his conviction, here's an example of someone who can't "live and let live":

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2015/01/24/west-mich-towns-riled-atheists-crusade/22253013/

As far as religious types who don't get it, one need look no further than what's going on in Iraq and Syria.

I disagree. From the link above:

"Everybody knows this is a Christian place, not a Muslim place, not a Hindu place," Matt Kooienga, associate pastor of Harvest Baptist Church in Hudsonville, said during the Jan. 13 work session. "We don't have to lock our doors. The reason for that is we're Christians."

Is this sentiment OK with you? To say the least, it is discriminatory and illegal.

merrylander
01-24-2015, 12:09 PM
Of course there are extremists on both ends of the spectrum of the religious debate that give their respective causes a black eye. The folks in the middle are caught up in the damage caused by the folks on the extremes who can't seem to embrace the concept of "live and let live". For example, while you might admire his conviction, here's an example of someone who can't "live and let live":

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2015/01/24/west-mich-towns-riled-atheists-crusade/22253013/

As far as religious types who don't get it, one need look no further than what's going on in Iraq and Syria.

There are obviously extremists who are non religious, except that one might consider atheism to be reverse religion.

Why do people go so extreme escapes me although I have noticed this among folks who convert to a religion - are they trying to convince themselves that they did the right thing?

I know what I believe and since it has made me so happy (well it helped me find Florence and she has more than made me happy) so if I get preachy sometimes it is only with the wish that others be happy.

The Catholic wedding prayers suggest the 'the husband and the wife become one." and there are days when I swear we are one soul that just happens to occupy two bodies.

Of course since I was divorced we had a civil wedding, even the Anglicans (God's Frozen people) would not let us renew our vows in the American Chapel at St. Paul's in London.:)

Tom Joad
01-24-2015, 12:10 PM
IMO George Carlin got it right where religion is concerned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r-e2NDSTuE

merrylander
01-24-2015, 12:15 PM
I disagree. From the link above:



Is this sentiment OK with you? To say the least, it is discriminatory and illegal.

No in fact the Constitution states that upon assuming public office no one is required to swear a religious oath so the pastor is misinformed. And what if the thief is not a good baptist?:)

nailer
01-24-2015, 12:56 PM
I believe that too.

There are far more good people than bad people. Sadly, for us the desire for power is the root of all evil.

nailer
01-24-2015, 12:58 PM
No in fact the Constitution states that upon assuming public office no one is required to swear a religious oath so the pastor is misinformed. And what if the thief is not a good baptist?:)

You'll never convince a true believer/patriot that there is no God in the Constitution.

merrylander
01-24-2015, 01:03 PM
You'll never convince a true believer/patriot that there is no God in the Constitution.

The Declaration of Independence speaks of a 'creator' and from what I have read most of the founders were 'deists' in fact did not Jefferson create his own bible by simply cutting out the bits he agreed with and pasting them into a blank book?

We have seen what a theocratic government can do and surely want no part of that.

d-ray657
01-24-2015, 01:08 PM
Of course there are extremists on both ends of the spectrum of the religious debate that give their respective causes a black eye. The folks in the middle are caught up in the damage caused by the folks on the extremes who can't seem to embrace the concept of "live and let live". For example, while you might admire his conviction, here's an example of someone who can't "live and let live":

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2015/01/24/west-mich-towns-riled-atheists-crusade/22253013/

As far as religious types who don't get it, one need look no further than what's going on in Iraq and Syria.

Unfortunately, it sounds like the responses to him are anything but "Christian." I do suppose that there are some instances in which atheism can be considered religious extremism.

Regards,

D-Ray

nailer
01-24-2015, 01:15 PM
Most who think the Bible is either anti-intellectual and or a good tool for controlling people haven't read it (I strongly rec Jesus's conversations with Pilate for politically-minded people particularly). There is a reason the renaissance followed/partnered with the printing press, classical works along with the ubiquitous and no need for name 'Book': Bible.

As the last century has shown, whenever you toss out right and wrong and go for 'situational ethics' people tend to die in large numbers.

Pete

I'm a secular Methodist and as such I think Jesus of Nazareth's primary point as captured in the Gospels is - we're all in this together, let's help each other out. I believe/think Jesus' primary point is a good one. I think/believe that we don't need religion to be moral because it's part of being human in that we are born with moral instinct.

Wasillaguy
01-24-2015, 01:24 PM
The Declaration of Independence speaks of a 'creator' and from what I have read most of the founders were 'deists' in fact did not Jefferson create his own bible by simply cutting out the bits he agreed with and pasting them into a blank book?

We have seen what a theocratic government can do and surely want no part of that.

I think pretty much everyone does this to some extent, though few go through the physical process of actually cutting and pasting. As we all know, you can find support in the Bible for just about any stance, if you look hard enough. I think it's by design, to appeal to the widest audience.

On the thought that the world would be as moral and non-violent without religion, I'm not so sure. They were practicing cannibalism in the Fiji islands until the second boatload of missionaries showed up with cattle.
You know what happened to the first boatload.

bobabode
01-24-2015, 02:17 PM
I'm a secular Methodist and as such I think Jesus of Nazareth's primary point as captured in the Gospels is - we're all in this together, let's help each other out. I believe/think Jesus' primary point is a good one. I think/believe that we don't need religion to be moral because it's part of being human in that we are born with moral instinct.

Dang Bob, well said for a Baltimoron. ;)

merrylander
01-24-2015, 03:07 PM
I'm a secular Methodist and as such I think Jesus of Nazareth's primary point as captured in the Gospels is - we're all in this together, let's help each other out. I believe/think Jesus' primary point is a good one. I think/believe that we don't need religion to be moral because it's part of being human in that we are born with moral instinct.

I was going to debate this then I suddenly remembered our son as a child (And if I forgot for a moment he is 49 years old so it was some time ago). Whenever he would come in from playing to use the john or summat if there were new cookies on the plate he would not only ask for one but also one for each of his chums that were outside. So yeah, we probably are born with it but have it 'educated' out of us along the way.

So I was gone for 10-15 minutes to feed the kitties and got logged out. Just wanted to note that our ophthalmologist is quite pleased with me the AMD is still dry and the vision in the right eye seems to be getting better. Ah the golden years are here at last, the golden years can kiss my ***

whell
01-24-2015, 05:12 PM
Unfortunately, it sounds like the responses to him are anything but "Christian." I do suppose that there are some instances in which atheism can be considered religious extremism.

Regards,

D-Ray

So he says. However, looks like he's also made a career out of taking on municipalities over religious iconography.

whell
01-24-2015, 05:17 PM
I'm a secular Methodist and as such I think Jesus of Nazareth's primary point as captured in the Gospels is - we're all in this together, let's help each other out. I believe/think Jesus' primary point is a good one. I think/believe that we don't need religion to be moral because it's part of being human in that we are born with moral instinct.

While we're all capable of being moral, morals can be subjective and subject to redefinition by - in worst cases - the least common denominators among us. The value of religious institutions are that they can service as a way to set and stabilize morality within a culture. Unfortunately, history also shows that - since they are run by humans - they can also be corrupted. That said, I think for the most part religious institutions have done far more good than not, and are capable of doing more good.

Rajoo
01-24-2015, 05:56 PM
Religion is good if it operates within well defined boundaries. Inside your homes and places of worship. But when the religious dogma's start to leak out into the public, this starts to divide the people.

Claiming that they are run by humans and can be corrupted is a cop out and in which case, what is wrong with adhering strictly to the separation of church and state? Or do you believe this is not expressly forbidden in the constitution?

hillbilly
01-24-2015, 06:06 PM
Dave we don't have to fear Hell, it is right here now. Go into any supermarket and watch the young women mistreat older folk. Any possibility that people today possess any social graces is remote in the extreme. Drive your car a few miles and observe your fellow motorists, and you don't dare admonish them as they may be armed.

Rob, things must be very different where you live. It's nothing like that here. Elderly get the upmost respect here. You walk in a store, old or young and you'll hardly need to grab the door as someone will hold it open for you. That is no joke. And when I go to the store, it's hard to get out of there because the folks will talk your ears off. You pass a car on any country road out here and they'll wave at you, and only look at you puzzled if you pretentend you didn't see them or to good to say hi back. Out of honesty, I was thrown in culture shock when I drove up north to the fest. Had a pizza guy at a redlight scream shit at us when I didn't ''floor it'' soon as the light turned green. They had no respect for people finding their way through a place we were only traveling through. Stopped for gas and folks didn't speak, just walked past bumping shoulders like they had a chip on theirs. You will not find that in my area. And garages do not ask you to wait in no office. People bullshit with the mechanic's while the work is being done. There are stools and chairs ''in the mechanic area'' if you want to go watch. In fact, if a local was to be told to stay in the office, they'd feel they were going to get screwed and take it somewhere else.

BlueStreak
01-24-2015, 07:36 PM
Unfortunately, it sounds like the responses to him are anything but "Christian." I do suppose that there are some instances in which atheism can be considered religious extremism.

Regards,

D-Ray

Believing there is no God is still a belief system and some Atheists can and have become intolerant of others. I have a friend, a Turkish woman who lives here, who is Atheist. (Her family in Turkey is Muslim.) She is a very warm and friendly person, I have attended parties at her home several times......just don't get her started on religion, she will blister your ears. I think the environment she was raised in has a lot to do with it.

Dave

BlueStreak
01-24-2015, 07:48 PM
Of course there are extremists on both ends of the spectrum of the religious debate that give their respective causes a black eye. The folks in the middle are caught up in the damage caused by the folks on the extremes who can't seem to embrace the concept of "live and let live". For example, while you might admire his conviction, here's an example of someone who can't "live and let live":

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2015/01/24/west-mich-towns-riled-atheists-crusade/22253013/

As far as religious types who don't get it, one need look no further than what's going on in Iraq and Syria.

Looks to me like he is trying to keep organized religion and government from becoming intertwined and simpatico. For that, I applaud his efforts.

Dave

Dondilion
01-24-2015, 07:51 PM
I think the environment she was raised in has a lot to do with it.

Dave

Indeed in countries in which Muslim customs prevail, a woman is dog shit.

BlueStreak
01-24-2015, 07:57 PM
Rob, things must be very different where you live. It's nothing like that here. Elderly get the upmost respect here. You walk in a store, old or young and you'll hardly need to grab the door as someone will hold it open for you. That is no joke. And when I go to the store, it's hard to get out of there because the folks will talk your ears off. You pass a car on any country road out here and they'll wave at you, and only look at you puzzled if you pretentend you didn't see them or to good to say hi back. Out of honesty, I was thrown in culture shock when I drove up north to the fest. Had a pizza guy at a redlight scream shit at us when I didn't ''floor it'' soon as the light turned green. They had no respect for people finding their way through a place we were only traveling through. Stopped for gas and folks didn't speak, just walked past bumping shoulders like they had a chip on theirs. You will not find that in my area. And garages do not ask you to wait in no office. People bullshit with the mechanic's while the work is being done. There are stools and chairs ''in the mechanic area'' if you want to go watch. In fact, if a local was to be told to stay in the office, they'd feel they were going to get screwed and take it somewhere else.

I have never seen an auto shop allow customers in the work area, here in Virginia. I don't know if that's a law or an insurance thing. Or maybe it's just my experience? At any rate, I'm thinking it might be the same in some other states.

Dave

d-ray657
01-24-2015, 08:21 PM
So he says. However, looks like he's also made a career out of taking on municipalities over religious iconography.

No, so the quotes say:

"How is it that a dirtbag can come into a community and cause so much controversy and destruction?" asked Rick Phillips, 59, a Spring Lake real estate broker who organized a rally to support the cross last year. "These carpetbaggers need to be driven from our community."

That said, I don't agree with his methods, which is really nothing but religious intolerance.

Regards,

D-Ray

icenine
01-24-2015, 08:43 PM
Yes religion provides a source of community connection along with mores and values.

However it also instills tribalism and is used as an excuse to justify many evil deeds and wars: "God Is On Our Side." I think the problem starts when governments and religions become joined together...which corrupts both the secular and the sacred. There is a reason why America is one of the best countries to live in....we separate both with the First Amendment.
The problems come with people thinking their religion is the best and they start to try and convert everyone. Plus there are contradictions. The Roman Catholics are very on point about social justice and ending poverty, but do not want to accept contraception as a way to stop what they are supposedly fighting. In the Philippines the Vatican opposed the legalization of birth control in a nation where almost everyone is barely scraping by and the population is growing at a very vast rate.

BlueStreak
01-24-2015, 09:07 PM
Yes religion provides a source of community connection along with mores and values.

However it also instills tribalism and is used as an excuse to justify many evil deeds and wars: "God Is On Our Side." I think the problem starts when governments and religions become joined together...which corrupts both the secular and the sacred. There is a reason why America is one of the best countries to live in....we separate both with the First Amendment.
The problems come with people thinking their religion is the best and they start to try and convert everyone. Plus there are contradictions. The Roman Catholics are very on point about social justice and ending poverty, but do not want to accept contraception as a way to stop what they are supposedly fighting. In the Philippines the Vatican opposed the legalization of birth control in a nation where almost everyone is barely scraping by and the population is growing at a very vast rate.

Agreed, on all points.

Dave

hillbilly
01-24-2015, 09:17 PM
I have never seen an auto shop allow customers in the work area, here in Virginia. I don't know if that's a law or an insurance thing. Or maybe it's just my experience? At any rate, I'm thinking it might be the same in some other states.

Dave


Out of being curious, do yall have to pay for gas before pumping? We pump gas first, then go inside and pay for what we put in the tank. I had to stop in Toleto OH on my way up to the fest in MI to fill up and they made me pay in advance. I'm not used to that.

HarmanKardon
01-25-2015, 04:10 AM
Is it time to put aside religion. We've all heard the definition of insanity. Doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result. I think 5000-6000 years is a good enough track record to prove it doesn't work except to hold back the advancement of the human race with close mindedness. It's not needed for morality. Anyone can be moral and most people are born that way. I just wish religion would get out of the way and let the human race fulfill it's potential.

What is religion? It is the personal expression of something that is impersonal, Lao-Tsu called it "Tao". This Tao is a fact, but not comprehensible for most people. So some guys had been invented like God, Jesus, Shiva, Mohammed, Buddha, most of them at first representing at least partly the principles of Tao. But soon later assholes started to corrupt the thoughts and teachings of those old guys what created messy religions. As long as people cannot accept that after the last breath the show is definitely over, as long religions and their believers will exist.

merrylander
01-25-2015, 05:59 AM
I have never seen an auto shop allow customers in the work area, here in Virginia. I don't know if that's a law or an insurance thing. Or maybe it's just my experience? At any rate, I'm thinking it might be the same in some other states.

Dave

The same over here Dave.

merrylander
01-25-2015, 06:01 AM
Yes religion provides a source of community connection along with mores and values.

However it also instills tribalism and is used as an excuse to justify many evil deeds and wars: "God Is On Our Side." I think the problem starts when governments and religions become joined together...which corrupts both the secular and the sacred. There is a reason why America is one of the best countries to live in....we separate both with the First Amendment.
The problems come with people thinking their religion is the best and they start to try and convert everyone. Plus there are contradictions. The Roman Catholics are very on point about social justice and ending poverty, but do not want to accept contraception as a way to stop what they are supposedly fighting. In the Philippines the Vatican opposed the legalization of birth control in a nation where almost everyone is barely scraping by and the population is growing at a very vast rate.

You wont get an argument from me Robbin.

merrylander
01-25-2015, 06:02 AM
Out of being curious, do yall have to pay for gas before pumping? We pump gas first, then go inside and pay for what we put in the tank. I had to stop in Toleto OH on my way up to the fest in MI to fill up and they made me pay in advance. I'm not used to that.

Dave I guess we do in the sense that our credit card goes in first then the pump will turn on.

merrylander
01-25-2015, 06:26 AM
What is religion? It is the personal expression of something that is impersonal, Lao-Tsu called it "Tao". This Tao is a fact, but not comprehensible for most people. So some guys had been invented like God, Jesus, Shiva, Mohammed, Buddha, most of them at first representing at least partly the principles of Tao. But soon later assholes started to corrupt the thoughts and teachings of those old guys what created messy religions. As long as people cannot accept that after the last breath the show is definitely over, as long religions and their believers will exist.


There is the problem Chris because no one has ever come back and said it is true, or not true.

That sais I do think Rabbi Hillel summed it all up so beautifully when he wrote;

"That which is distasteful to you do not do unto others, that is the whole law all the rest is mere commentary".

I recently finished C.S. Lewis' book The Four Loves which was his commentary on the four words the Greeks have for what we call love.

Paleo or brotherly love as experienced between siblings and even between especially good friends.

Storge (the g is hard) the love between a parent and child, Lewis refers to this as need love. love that children need from parents, in my experience this is especially true of girls and their fathers because if they do not find it at home they will seek it elsewhere and there are predators out there,

Eros love between a husband and wife but in this day and age can simply be between a man and woman. The word erotic is derived from this an we have corrupted that today. Eros contains both a spiritual and a physical element, Lewis called the physical side Venus at her most mischievous but if you have never laughed when making love with your wife/lover you are missing something.

Agape to the Greeks this was the highest form a pure love given freely without condition. Latin speakers tended to translate this as charitable love and presumably why Paul's use of it in 1st Corinthians 13 had it come out as charity. Ovid wrote xenia in Baucis and Philemon.

Having been so fortunate as to have experienced both Eros and Agape with, and from, a goodhearted woman I have come to believe that the most powerful force on the face of the earth is love in all its forms.

So if a belief system teaches us to love one another that is good. It is when it gets corrupted into a control system that it is evil. To often men have used it to control women as in "serve and obey" or "wives submit yourselves to your husband". I rather prefer the old Jewish saying "God did not take woman from man's forehead that he should command her, neither from his foot that she should be his slave, rather from his side that she be close to his heart."

And thus endeth the lesson for today.:):):)

HarmanKardon
01-25-2015, 07:41 AM
Thank you very much Rob.

I would like to mention a taoist point of view concerning eternal life. So, according to Lao-Tzu, Chuang-Tzu, also according to the old Zen masters like Yuan Wu et al. our life does not begin with our birth and it does not end with our death. The whole universe, anything that is in it, is One and Now. So we are. We are in this universe and the universe is in us. But the short time we exist as human beings is the time when we are aware of it. Great nuclear and astro physicists like Heisenberg, Capra, Hawking appreciate this point of view.

Love by the way is an essential part of most of the asian philosophies and religions.

JJIII
01-25-2015, 08:01 AM
Thanks for that post, Rob.

JJIII
01-25-2015, 08:03 AM
Rob, things must be very different where you live. It's nothing like that here. Elderly get the upmost respect here. You walk in a store, old or young and you'll hardly need to grab the door as someone will hold it open for you. That is no joke. And when I go to the store, it's hard to get out of there because the folks will talk your ears off. You pass a car on any country road out here and they'll wave at you, and only look at you puzzled if you pretentend you didn't see them or to good to say hi back. Out of honesty, I was thrown in culture shock when I drove up north to the fest. Had a pizza guy at a redlight scream shit at us when I didn't ''floor it'' soon as the light turned green. They had no respect for people finding their way through a place we were only traveling through. Stopped for gas and folks didn't speak, just walked past bumping shoulders like they had a chip on theirs. You will not find that in my area. And garages do not ask you to wait in no office. People bullshit with the mechanic's while the work is being done. There are stools and chairs ''in the mechanic area'' if you want to go watch. In fact, if a local was to be told to stay in the office, they'd feel they were going to get screwed and take it somewhere else.

You have described the way it is here too.

merrylander
01-25-2015, 09:08 AM
You have described the way it is here too.

I only know what Florence has experienced at the Giant. They don't misbehave too much if I am with her but I have had them push our cart out of the way and reach right in front of my face without an 'excuse me'. She says the behave better when she carries her cane, probably afraid she will use it.:)

Small town life was much better but then you probably know everyone, at least that was how it was where I grew up.

merrylander
01-25-2015, 09:11 AM
Thanks for that post, Rob.

Yeah every once in a while I drag out the soapbox,:) but what I wrote was what I had learned over a number of years. Considering how Florence and I met if there is not a higher power I have no idea what is going on then.:confused:

donquixote99
01-25-2015, 10:25 AM
Rob, things must be very different where you live. It's nothing like that here. Elderly get the upmost respect here. You walk in a store, old or young and you'll hardly need to grab the door as someone will hold it open for you. That is no joke. And when I go to the store, it's hard to get out of there because the folks will talk your ears off. You pass a car on any country road out here and they'll wave at you, and only look at you puzzled if you pretentend you didn't see them or to good to say hi back. Out of honesty, I was thrown in culture shock when I drove up north to the fest. Had a pizza guy at a redlight scream shit at us when I didn't ''floor it'' soon as the light turned green. They had no respect for people finding their way through a place we were only traveling through. Stopped for gas and folks didn't speak, just walked past bumping shoulders like they had a chip on theirs. You will not find that in my area. And garages do not ask you to wait in no office. People bullshit with the mechanic's while the work is being done. There are stools and chairs ''in the mechanic area'' if you want to go watch. In fact, if a local was to be told to stay in the office, they'd feel they were going to get screwed and take it somewhere else.

Rural vs urban. There are just too many people around in the big city to say 'hi' to everyone. And all that implies.

But there are advantages to the city culture, of course. There are a lot more opportunities. And not only can you not find 'different' in a small burg, you may not be allowed to 'be' different.

Basically, it's good to have both, and the ability to move around.

djv8ga
01-25-2015, 10:41 AM
Rural vs urban. you may not be allowed to 'be' different.
Ridiculous. :rolleyes:

donquixote99
01-25-2015, 10:49 AM
Ridiculous. :rolleyes:

Have you lived in the rural 'Bible belt' recently? It all depends on what you want and need, of course. But if you want to have a position in the community, practice a profession, have customers for your business, be considered to 'fit in' at the job, or otherwise do things that depend in some measure on the good opinion of others, you'd best be in good standing at your 'church home.'

merrylander
01-25-2015, 11:08 AM
Have you lived in the rural 'Bible belt' recently? It all depends on what you want and need, of course. But if you want to have a position in the community, practice a profession, have customers for your business, be considered to 'fit in' at the job, or otherwise do things that depend in some measure on the good opinion of others, you'd best be in good standing at your 'church home.'

Quebec was by no means 'bible belt' but the Catholic church did have considerable influence. That affected their people more than we black hearted protestants. Of course being a Union church type they had no sway over me. Besides when the Union church put up a new church building Mother donated the cross (in our Dad's memory) that was to hang over the Alter Table on the condition I was to make it. We had some rather impious discussion over dinner one night when my brother asked how I was going to get it to the church. :) The cross being over ten feet high. Oh BTW the church had nowt to do with the AFL/CIO it was just that the town was so small that there were not enough Protestants of an one sect to form separate congregations.:)

Here we are semi-suburban as there are only 21 homesites on the Court but urban in that everyone works in DC or NoVa so we only 'know' two of our neighbours and of those two one I can't stand.

donquixote99
01-25-2015, 11:12 AM
If the protestants had to union-up in Quebec imagine the situation for a protestant family 50 miles out-of-town.

Wasillaguy
01-25-2015, 12:06 PM
About 7 yrs ago the neighbor to my west sold his place and a new family moved in. It was spring and one Saturday when we saw them working out in the yard, the wife and I walked thru the patch of woods that separate our houses to welcome them to the neighborhood. Brought them a hanging basket of strawberries for their greenhouse.
I gave them my number. Told them if they ever got in a pinch I'd be more than happy to help.
They were nice enough, but the guy came off like "whatever buddy, can you go now", and so we did. I didn't blame the guy. I likes me some privacy too, and moving to a new place you're always a bit concerned your new neighbors might be a nightmare in one respect or another, so you work slowly toward making relationships.
About 3 months later I'm climbing in the truck to head to work and I can hear his starter trying to turn his engine over and not succeeding, so I drove out and around to his driveway. Hopped out with the cables and a "good morning" and got back a "oh it's ok, I got a charger in the garage". By then I've got both hoods open, so I said "no problem, this is quicker"
No thank you, no handshake, no fuck off, nothing.
About 6 weeks later we've got lots of snow, and he's in the ditch because after the plows come through you can't tell where the road ends and the ditch starts. You have to KNOW where the ditch is.
Anyway, same kinda deal- I jump out with the tow strap and hand him one end.
"Oh, I got it dude. My wife is coming with the car"
Didn't bother asking what the hell he thought a Taurus station wagon was gonna do, just pulled him out. This time he actually said thanks, but I knew I was done working toward a good neighbor on that side.

merrylander
01-25-2015, 12:18 PM
If the protestants had to union-up in Quebec imagine the situation for a protestant family 50 miles out-of-town.

Perhaps I erred in calling it a town although it is now. Seventy years ago it was a village.:)

This is the cross and that is my ex and her mother in the picture. The architect had specified 1" x 4" white oak with walnut stain with no end grain showing anywhere. Well to get a full 1 x 4 I had to buy 1-1/4 x 5 and have it planned. Then make some very creative 45 degree joints.

The folks who provided the long drapes had to hang them and then come back a week later and take over a foot off the bottom and re hem them.

Was you gave it a good shot and that is about all anyone can do.

djv8ga
01-25-2015, 12:28 PM
Have you lived in the rural 'Bible belt' recently? It all depends on what you want and need, of course. But if you want to have a position in the community, practice a profession, have customers for your business, be considered to 'fit in' at the job, or otherwise do things that depend in some measure on the good opinion of others, you'd best be in good standing at your 'church home.'
I spend a big chunk of time in a rural area full of farmers/rednecks. The popular religion in the area is Seventh-Day Adventist & I have had zero proplems. In fact, I have had much success in making friends because I standout like a sore thumb.
You sound like a paranoid SOB that has poor socializing skills or just isn't liked.

merrylander
01-25-2015, 12:35 PM
I spend a big chunk of time in a rural area full of farmers/rednecks. The popular religion in the area is Seventh-Day Adventist & I have had zero proplems. In fact, I have had much success in making friends because I standout like a sore thumb.
You sound like a paranoid SOB that has poor socializing skills or just isn't liked.

DJ cool it please, up until now this thread has been unbelievably free of invective.

djv8ga
01-25-2015, 12:37 PM
DJ cool it please, up until now this thread has been unbelievably free of invective.
OK. Stereotyping on a serious level bugs the crap out of me.

donquixote99
01-25-2015, 12:46 PM
I spend a big chunk of time in a rural area full of farmers/rednecks. The popular religion in the area is Seventh-Day Adventist & I have had zero proplems. In fact, I have had much success in making friends because I standout like a sore thumb.
You sound like a paranoid SOB that has poor socializing skills or just isn't liked.

First, I was speaking of social patterns that have been observed in a general way. Individual cases always vary. Further, Seventh-Day-Adventists are different, more stick-to-themselves, religion-wise. The place you mention, I suspect, was not in Tennessee or any state touching it.

As for your final comment, well, just try to imagine being called paranoid by a desert-living survivalist militia dude!

'Life is an endless cycle of joy' as Dorothy Parker once wrote. I don't think she believed it, alas, but I see proof every day.

djv8ga
01-25-2015, 12:55 PM
First, I was speaking of social patterns that have been observed in a general way. Individual cases always vary.

As for your final comment, well, just try to imagine being called paranoid by a desert-living survivalist militia dude!

'Life is an endless cycle of joy' as Dorothy Parker once wrote. I don't think she believed it, alas, but I see proof every day.
LOL...this is too funny. Even if I was this "militia dude" you speak of, the fact is I'm not paranoid of the city, rural areas, or any of the places where you obviously don't feel comfortable. I like the diversity of lifestyles, religions, & skill sets that the rural communities I work, play, & invest in possess.
Amazing coming from an old surfer/punk rocker who runs around sporting "Bad Religion" & similar swag....isn't it?

You are Ruralphobic...

merrylander
01-25-2015, 12:58 PM
'Life is an endless cycle of joy' as Dorothy Parker once wrote. I don't think she believed it, alas, but I see proof every day.

Ah another Dorothy Parker fan, she was my kind of girl, but then I always admired and liked smart strong women.

donquixote99
01-25-2015, 01:13 PM
LOL...this is too funny. Even if I was this "militia dude" you speak of, the fact is I'm not paranoid of the city, rural areas, or any of the places where you obviously don't feel comfortable. I like the diversity of lifestyles, religions, & skill sets that the rural communities I work, play, & invest in possess.
Amazing coming from an old surfer/punk rocker who runs around sporting "Bad Religion" & similar swag....isn't it?

You are Ruralphobic...

I'm happy to hear of your appreciation of diversity, and your lack of paranoia. In this we are probably much more alike than you suspect!

merrylander
01-25-2015, 01:40 PM
OK. Stereotyping on a serious level bugs the crap out of me.

Jeez I thought we were all stereo types in here. :)

sanford12
01-25-2015, 01:50 PM
This thread is a pleasant surprise. Very civil discourse and good coherent points of view and an enjoyable read. Stereotypes have that grain of truth. I'm that left leaning middle of the roader, former hippie, mini van dad, second childhood progressing to codger. I'll probably hit a few more stereotypes before the dirt nap.

nailer
01-25-2015, 02:02 PM
Jeez I thought we were all stereo types in here. :)

I prefer FM in mono. Truly.

djv8ga
01-25-2015, 02:10 PM
former hippie,
Oh no, you're branded for life.

merrylander
01-25-2015, 02:16 PM
This thread is a pleasant surprise. Very civil discourse and good coherent points of view and an enjoyable read. Stereotypes have that grain of truth. I'm that left leaning middle of the roader, former hippie, mini van dad, seconded childhood progressing to codger. I'll probably hit a few more stereotypes before the dirt nap.

Yeah just shows to go you how adult we can be. BTW I am forgetting my manners, welcome to PC.

Been through all the phases. mid life crisis and all. Former member of the Progressive Conservative party of Canada. Having a great time in my second marriage and plan on sliding into my grave at a run with a smile on my face and a martini in hand, but that is not for fifteen years or more. ;)

djv8ga
01-25-2015, 03:05 PM
Jeez I thought we were all stereo types in here. :)
Surfers act like Pauly Shore, environmentalists are Leftys, Permaculture is a hippie thing, if you're against the war in the M.E., you must be a Lefty, if you don't hunt/kill animals, you're a Lefty, punk rock is for Leftys ...

Hell, I must be a Liberal x 2 :(

Rajoo
01-25-2015, 03:41 PM
Surfers act like Pauly Shore, environmentalists are Leftys, Permaculture is a hippie thing, if you're against the war in the M.E., you must be a Lefty, if you don't hunt/kill animals, you're a Lefty, punk rock is for Leftys ...

Hell, I must be a Liberal x 2 :(
Sunday confessions. 😄

d-ray657
01-25-2015, 06:42 PM
So, I've been married to the same woman for 34 years, raised two kids (made them do their homework and follow the rules), live in the suburbs, have two cars, work full time, and go to church on Sundays. I must be conservative. :rolleyes:

Regards,

D-Ray

bobabode
01-25-2015, 07:55 PM
So, I've been married to the same woman for 34 years, raised two kids (made them do their homework and follow the rules), live in the suburbs, have two cars, work full time, and go to church on Sundays. I must be conservative. :rolleyes:

Regards,

D-Ray

Heeeheheheeeeee! :D

bobabode
01-25-2015, 07:57 PM
Surfers act like Pauly Shore, environmentalists are Leftys, Permaculture is a hippie thing, if you're against the war in the M.E., you must be a Lefty, if you don't hunt/kill animals, you're a Lefty, punk rock is for Leftys ...

Hell, I must be a Liberal x 2 :(

Wait'll you get a load of the secret lefty handshake DJ. :cool:

BlueStreak
01-25-2015, 08:15 PM
So, I've been married to the same woman for 34 years, raised two kids (made them do their homework and follow the rules), live in the suburbs, have two cars, work full time, and go to church on Sundays. I must be conservative. :rolleyes:

Regards,

D-Ray

You're doing a HORRIBLE job of living up to the Liberal stereotype, Don. Limbaugh and his minions would be SO disappointed.....;)

I just thought you should know that.

Dave

djv8ga
01-25-2015, 08:28 PM
live in the suburbs,

Regards,

D-Ray
Kansas is nothing but one big & flat suburb. :rolleyes:

djv8ga
01-25-2015, 08:31 PM
Wait'll you get a load of the secret lefty handshake DJ. :cool:
Oh God No! Not even with gloves on. :eek:

d-ray657
01-25-2015, 10:36 PM
Kansas is nothing but one big & flat suburb. :rolleyes:

Oh yeah, I should have mentioned that I live in one of the reddest of the red states, and I grew up in the other one.

Regards,

D-Ray

merrylander
01-27-2015, 02:19 PM
Ah well it was pretty good while it lasted.

piece-itpete
01-27-2015, 04:54 PM
For those who say religion is all the same, look to the fruits - the cultures they birthed. Various civilizations are incredibly different.

Pet

Boreas
01-27-2015, 05:36 PM
For those who say religion is all the same, look to the fruits - the cultures they birthed. Various civilizations are incredibly different.

Pet

I think you're wanting us to think about the Ay-rabbs. Okay.

Prior to the Crusades and then, later, the Reconquista, Islamic culture was among the most vibrant, advanced and tolerant in the world. Frankly, it was Christians fucking with them and (predominantly Christian) European powers subjugating anf colonizing them that made them go retrograde.

John

piece-itpete
01-27-2015, 06:02 PM
No, look at all cultures.

If the caliphates were so tolerant and advanced, what happened to the Christian church in the ME after they came to power?

Pete

Boreas
01-27-2015, 06:16 PM
No, look at all cultures.

If the caliphates were so tolerant and advanced, what happened to the Christian church in the ME after they came to power?

Pete

In some places nothing happened. Think of the Christian communities that existed and still exist in the Holy Land and the Copts in Egypt. Then there were the thriving Christian and Jewish communities in Iran, right up to the Islamic Revolution and likewise in Iraq until Bush fucked up the whole world.

But the point is that Christian churches were a symbol and physical manifestation to the Arabs of the brutal conquest by the Crusaders. And don't forget that, at the same time Arabs in some places were persecuting local Christians, the Europeans were busy entertaining themselves with the Inquisition, butchering and burning "heretics" of all stripes, including Muslims and Jews.

John

piece-itpete
01-27-2015, 06:29 PM
I wonder where all those churches went? They vanished long before the Crusades, so being a symbol is moot. Long before the Inquisition too.

The culture and greatness of the four rightly guided califs? or whatever they were called is very much overstated in modern culture. Yes they held some learning and culture, but not how or what we think. They were remarkably brutal.

Nice trying to blame Bush for their barbarism.

Pete

merrylander
01-28-2015, 06:26 AM
Well there goes the neighborhood.:o