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Grumpy
05-19-2009, 06:44 AM
This is a subject that is very close to all of us. How or what would you do to "fix" the economy ?

Grumpy

Charles
05-19-2009, 05:38 PM
Gotta hand it to you Grumpy, you ask the easy questions.

Not so sure that it can be fixed. Kind of like an old car, you can patch it up, put it back on the road, and get a few more miles out of it. But sooner or later it's gonna die.

Eventually, we will have to change the order of things. I was hoping that wouldn't happen on my watch, but I'm beginning to think that I may be SOL.

The problem is we live in a world full of people. Technology may have changed, but people haven't. We're no different now than we were when we first crawled out of a cave and beat supper to death with a rock. We just dress better, and talk a better game.

Kinda sad, but when push comes to shove, the veneer of civility disappears pretty fast,
Chas

Ozmoid
05-19-2009, 10:23 PM
Kinda sad, but when push comes to shove, the veneer of civility disappears pretty fast,
Chas
Put your finger right on that one, Charles. :)

_________________________________
Fix the economy?

Try some "trickle up", that "trickle down" hasn't worked for shit.

Leave the Government out of it and barter.

Cut the tax bill big time in one easy stroke - pay politicians minimum wage, put the Congress and Senate in dormitory housing, serve the School Lunch Program in the Senate Dining room, and make voting attendance mandatory. Have them all share staff, too. No more limos, we'll put the dorms close by so you can walk to work. Maybe then some people who care about our country instead of lining their pockets will run for office. :cool:

Take back all the bail-out money. YOU FAILED, why should my tax dollars provide you a free roll?

Try caring about your employees (or constituents) well-being as much as the bottom line. There's more than one way to be rich.

cabinover
05-20-2009, 06:41 AM
Here's one idea that I've recently been enlightened from. Austrian economics.
NO bailouts to anyone. Let the businesses fall and get it over with.

I always thought it was a bad thing, bankruptcy, but it turns out to really be a blessing for many when it happens. The business looses it's problems with paying bonuses (like AIG), the folks that help run companies into the ground are sent packing, what's left of the ashes will be picked up for a great price on the dollar by other companies looking to grow.

Now I understand that not all people hurt by a business closing did something wrong but the way I see it is like a healing process. You get the bad over with as quickly as you can so the healing can take place. I look at all of the car folks as well as all of the outsourcing people. They've all been treading water that cannot be beat.

Would it have worked out for the better if GM had gone bankrupt, reorganized, sold off some of it's plants to maybe an upstart electric car manufacturer and started anew? GM gets out of union contracts and health care that's hurting their competitiveness, another outfit buys a tooled factory for pennies on the dollar to grow.

Sure some of the GM folks would be without jobs at the end of the day but they're going to anyway sooner or later.

I use GM only as an example. It could be any company.

I just don't see how the Government meddling in businesses helps anyone. The next step is the new owner of GM/Chrysler telling them that by 2014 they will be making cars that average 35 1/2 MPG. Good luck with that.

Todd, I like your ideas as well.

Bob

Ozmoid
05-20-2009, 07:04 AM
NO bailouts to anyone. Let the businesses fall and get it over with.

Exactly!

Some of the money pundits will say that all these bail-out moves are to protect the infrastructure of the economy... I say if the current infrastructure landed us here, why bother?

Reel 2 Reel
05-20-2009, 05:45 PM
In my opinion... Drop the big one!!...it will upset the global communications network...and travel will be reduced...then you will have more LOCAL exchanges going on...and not all the BS from some dumb-ass 1500 miles away telling us what to do all the time...we will have to make our own decicisions again ...like it used to be back before long distance communications,...

or not....;)



OH YEA!!..just dont drop it on me!!!

Charles
05-21-2009, 09:29 PM
Cut the tax bill big time in one easy stroke - pay politicians minimum wage, put the Congress and Senate in dormitory housing, serve the School Lunch Program in the Senate Dining room, and make voting attendance mandatory. Have them all share staff, too. No more limos, we'll put the dorms close by so you can walk to work. Maybe then some people who care about our country instead of lining their pockets will run for office.


I like it. While we're at it, let's hire Arlee Ermy to kick their asses out of bed at 4:00 hours sharp, and have them standing tall at their posts by 4:30. Keep 'em sober too.

I've said for a long time, if you want to fix the minimum wage, socialist security, and health care, put the politicians on the same level as the lowest slob in the country. But they'd just mandate that everyone gets free medical at Walter Reed, 200K per year retirement, and, it you were still willing to work, a 200K salary per year plus all you can steal with both hands.

Don't reckon it will work.



Here's one idea that I've recently been enlightened from. Austrian economics.


Ludwig Von Misses?

Chas

cabinover
05-22-2009, 04:48 AM
Here's one idea that I've recently been enlightened from. Austrian economics.


Ludwig Von Misses?

Chas

Lots of good reading on mises.org :)

Strangeband
06-15-2009, 09:39 PM
Term limits for all politicians, make all politicians have to use the same retirement plans and health care plans they foist on the rest of us, cut taxes, massive cuts in government programs, no government funding for arts or federal department of education, unfetter innovation in the private sector, and put food production back in the hands of smaller farmers and growers.

It might not work, but I would like to give all these things a try.

soundhound
06-15-2009, 11:36 PM
the problem with the economy is that the gap between rich and poor has to grown to such a point that the poor can no longer afford to buy all the crap the rich are trying to sell to them.

the costs of healthcare have driven our manufacturing base into the toilet. eliminate the insurance companies. they're all crooks. socialize medicine there, i said that ugly word). healthcare should not be for profit.

increase spending on education. a better educated workforce is more productive, and better qualified for the work.

decrease spending on wars. war is hell, and it is expensive.

legalize and tax drugs. i've read that 80 billion a year leaves our country and goes to support terrorism. this doesn't count the money that's being spent on drug enforcement.

change the laws that make it more profitable for industries to produce goods in china and other places instead of here in the US. that's a big reason why unemployment is so high. i can remember when "made in USA" meant something.

fine the hell out of businesses that are paying illegal immigrants. if there is no work here for them, they'll go home, americans will get those jobs.

break up all the big corporations. no company should be allowed to get so big that its failure will do significant damage to the nation's economy. for goodness' sake, that's what the sherman anti-trust act is for. use it.

too many people in this country are making money from investments. that's money for nothing folks! that money has to come from somewhere, it is coming from the poor people who have to pay more in order to cover the shareholders and it's coming from the workers who are having their benefits cut, being forced into early retirement, etc.

if you want to make money, work for it and save.

soundhound
06-17-2009, 07:22 PM
the problem with the economy is that the gap between rich and poor has to grown to such a point that the poor can no longer afford to buy all the crap the rich are trying to sell to them.

the costs of healthcare have driven our manufacturing base into the toilet. eliminate the insurance companies. they're all crooks. socialize medicine there, i said that ugly word). healthcare should not be for profit.

increase spending on education. a better educated workforce is more productive, and better qualified for the work.

decrease spending on wars. war is hell, and it is expensive.

legalize and tax drugs. i've read that 80 billion a year leaves our country and goes to support terrorism. this doesn't count the money that's being spent on drug enforcement.

change the laws that make it more profitable for industries to produce goods in china and other places instead of here in the US. that's a big reason why unemployment is so high. i can remember when "made in USA" meant something.

fine the hell out of businesses that are paying illegal immigrants. if there is no work here for them, they'll go home, americans will get those jobs.

break up all the big corporations. no company should be allowed to get so big that its failure will do significant damage to the nation's economy. for goodness' sake, that's what the sherman anti-trust act is for. use it.

too many people in this country are making money from investments. that's money for nothing folks! that money has to come from somewhere, it is coming from the poor people who have to pay more in order to cover the shareholders and it's coming from the workers who are having their benefits cut, being forced into early retirement, etc.

if you want to make money, work for it and save.

damn, i figured i'd get flamed for sure.

merrylander
06-18-2009, 07:56 AM
damn, i figured i'd get flamed for sure.

Why? sounded pretty good to me.

cabinover
06-19-2009, 06:36 AM
Here's your flame bro.

"increase spending on education. a better educated workforce is more productive, and better qualified for the work."

We are overspending on education. Kids are stupid and have been given a free ride for so long that they don't feel the need to work or be smart, they're still entitled. Ever try to read what younger folks are writing? It's about as smart as ebonics, fail.


"the costs of healthcare have driven our manufacturing base into the toilet."

I don't buy that being the only reason. I may be wrong but I'll bet it's more regulations that harm manufacturing. The government has gotten so big that there are no more checks and balances.

I read the That's Outrageous column last night in Reader's Digest. In the last paragraph the author said that the people need to watch the politicians and what they are doing. WE CAN'T ANYMORE! It's hidden and no one has time to listen to any more than 15 second sound bites.

BTW, short of installing a bunch of old time farmers in DC, I have no idea how to fix the mess we are in. Just speculating like the rest.

noonereal
06-19-2009, 07:36 AM
Here's your flame bro.

"increase spending on education. a better educated workforce is more productive, and better qualified for the work."

We are overspending on education. Kids are stupid and have been given a free ride for so long that they don't feel the need to work or be smart, they're still entitled. Ever try to read what younger folks are writing? It's about as smart as ebonics, fail.

.

These stupid kids, are they my children or your children?
also,
I personally have never equated Ebonics with education but rather with culture. Are country folk less educated because they don't speak like a TV broadcaster?

BTW, short of installing a bunch of old time farmers in DC, I have no idea how to fix the mess we are in. Just speculating like the rest..

What do you mean by old time farmers and why do you feel they would be of value now?

merrylander
06-19-2009, 07:55 AM
To diverge slightly am I the only one who is offended by seeing Wall St. wrap themselves in the flag?

noonereal
06-19-2009, 08:44 AM
To diverge slightly am I the only one who is offended by seeing Wall St. wrap themselves in the flag?

smart move on their part.

I think this country was headed for a class war as pointed out by soundhound (I believe I am accurately referencing him) in another thread and the wall street greed machine is a big reason.

merrylander
06-20-2009, 07:01 AM
Hey a little bit of class warfare might relieve the boredom, torches and pitchforks anyone? :rolleyes:

Twodogs
06-22-2009, 05:08 PM
This is a subject that is very close to all of us. How or what would you do to "fix" the economy ?

Grumpy

Quit sending money overseas, and make all the deadbeats here in the USA get jobs.:p

merrylander
06-23-2009, 07:27 AM
I would legalize drugs, this would do several things;

1 Raise money for public works, health care, etc.

2 Starve the Mexican and Columbian drug lords.

3 Bankrupt the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

Anyone who wants to fry his brain on coke or meth is perfectly free to do so, drugs would be so cheap that they would not need to steal to support their habit.

Pushers would no longer have a profit motive to get young people hooked on drugs so eventually the market would dry up except perhaps for marijuana for people with terminal illnesses.

Drug war solved.

merrylander
06-27-2009, 03:57 PM
What, no arguments?

noonereal
06-27-2009, 04:10 PM
Drugs will never be legal.

Drugs=Bad

Bad=Illegal

It's ashame they were ever made illegal because now people think you are trying to legalize sin.

The same with sex.

The same with gambling.

Twodogs
06-27-2009, 04:52 PM
What, no arguments?

I'm with ya on this one Rob.:eek::D

Grumpy
09-12-2009, 07:17 AM
I figure its time to revisit this question after 5 months. Did the economy get any better to make you change your thoughts on how to fix this mess ?

merrylander
09-12-2009, 08:01 AM
They need to hurry up and set a watchdog on Wall Street, they are still playing silly buggers.

Grumpy
09-12-2009, 08:34 AM
They need to hurry up and stop lining the pockets of those that don't need it.

Bigerik
09-12-2009, 09:54 AM
I don't know, but I am really starting to think that the US economy is not fixable anymore.The corruption and greed has taken a hold of all of US aspects of the US citizenry to such an extant that any meaningful discussions will not take place to correct things. Just look at the negative discussions around health care. Having all of your citizens healthy and able to contribute to your country is an obvious GOOD THING, but those discussions turned so ugly it just beggared belief.
So, how are you going to make the real hard decisions that will be needed to turn the country around? For instance, the manufacturing base of American needs to be restored. People have to start being willing to pay more to purchase US made goods, and pay much more if needed, to kill the huge trade deficits. The trade deficits are a huge cut to the jugular of the United States, and real wealth is just pouring out of the country. There will be no economic recovery until the trade deficits are corrected. But who will tell Americans they need to stop buying Japanese cars right now or purchasing Chinese DVD players at Wal-Mart for $39? Who will tell the corporations that they have to stop exporting jobs and closing down plants in the US and take the $.05 per share hit of the bottom line?
To be honest, it looks like something worse than the depression is going to be needed to turn America around. And from what I see, the worse is still ahead of you guys....

noonereal
09-12-2009, 09:58 AM
I don't know, but I am really starting to think that the US economy is not fixable anymore.The corruption and greed has taken a hold of all of US aspects of the US citizenry to such an extant that any meaningful discussions will not take place to correct things. ....

It has always been that way. Just an FYI.

Bigerik
09-12-2009, 12:05 PM
It has always been that way. Just an FYI.

You know, I really don't think that it has. Sure there have been elements of it, and greed and corruption go wherever people are, but the level of hatred and vitriol has just escalated beyond anything I could imagine in the last 10 years. Greed? I think the late 80's is where started going all out of control.

Charles
09-12-2009, 02:48 PM
Well, globalization has worked out pretty well for the super wealthy and their hip pocket politicians...but not so good for the rest of us.

Starting to look like that crazy assed Ross Perot was right.

Chas

noonereal
09-12-2009, 05:44 PM
You know, I really don't think that it has. Sure there have been elements of it, and greed and corruption go wherever people are, but the level of hatred and vitriol has just escalated beyond anything I could imagine in the last 10 years. Greed? I think the late 80's is where started going all out of control.

why did we need labor laws-OSHA----the FDA 100 years ago


what we are dealing with is human nature and it has not changed

hillbilly
09-12-2009, 10:27 PM
I don't know, but I am really starting to think that the US economy is not fixable anymore.The corruption and greed has taken a hold of all of US aspects of the US citizenry to such an extant that any meaningful discussions will not take place to correct things. Just look at the negative discussions around health care. Having all of your citizens healthy and able to contribute to your country is an obvious GOOD THING, but those discussions turned so ugly it just beggared belief.
So, how are you going to make the real hard decisions that will be needed to turn the country around? For instance, the manufacturing base of American needs to be restored. People have to start being willing to pay more to purchase US made goods, and pay much more if needed, to kill the huge trade deficits. The trade deficits are a huge cut to the jugular of the United States, and real wealth is just pouring out of the country. There will be no economic recovery until the trade deficits are corrected. But who will tell Americans they need to stop buying Japanese cars right now or purchasing Chinese DVD players at Wal-Mart for $39? Who will tell the corporations that they have to stop exporting jobs and closing down plants in the US and take the $.05 per share hit of the bottom line?
To be honest, it looks like something worse than the depression is going to be needed to turn America around. And from what I see, the worse is still ahead of you guys....

I agree with you on all but the health care, just the thought of the government running anything else just doesn't sit well with alot of us folks. They have their hands in enough as it is. Can't forget all those loans they told banks to lend folks with no money down, and nothing to show for. Alot of those folks couldn't afford those loans the day they took them out, but the good ole government thought folks needed a fair chance to own. It backfired on down the road though, and look who gets to pay back the bailout money.Again, no loss to the government, only to the poor ole taxpayers for many years to come.

I agree, we should be buying US automobiles, and I've owned upto that my whole life by driving GM,Ford,and Mopar over the years, and still do. I won't be buying another from any of the big three for years to come though, mine'll run for probly two more decades with the parts I've collected knowing sooner or later they'd get hard to come by. I frowned on cash for clunkers, but had to giggle a bit in anger as I wondered how long the temporary spikes in sales is going to hold them now that cash for clunkers is dead and many folks are still shit outta luck lookin' for work, or worried they will be and won't buy a new car.

Things from that place they call Wally-World? Again, I agree that folks need to buy American, even if it cost more at the checkout. Only problem is, what can we buy that is still American other than a street whore offering a one night stand? I remember when ole Sam was alive, Wal-Mart was always glad to offer ''Made In America'' products and had signs asking folks to buy American. But ole Sam died a good ole soul and his survivors let his stores go strait to hell afterwards. I still enjoy 30 year old audio gear, and wouldn't buy a damn thing new these days. Well, I can still buy new gear that ain't made in China, but I'm way to poor for the price I'd have to pay, so I have no problem enjoying the old ''built to last'' gear that the public could afford to buy new then. I bought three brand new DVD players a few years ago, but only because I went through two of them in less than a year from Wally World and the third lasted a whole six movies and started freezing up so I said the hell with it and ain't bought a single DVD or worried about watching DVD movies again in the last couple years. Odly enough though, our 'old' VCR still works flawlessly, but I don't see new movies for sale for them so still, I don't watch new movies til they old enough to be seen on the regular tube.

I feel like Microsoft is a money circle also. Look at all the folks that have bought new PC's over the years and before they knew it, MS threw a new OS out there and stop supporting the old. MS is still doing it, exept so many folks raised hell about it, that MS decided to keep supporting XP a while longer rather than stop supporting it as planned in June 08. Vista is a resorce hog and alot of folks still have machines that'll last for years to come but can't run the new bloated OS. MS knows that too, and again, folks'll have to go out and buy a more powerfull machine. Why should old folks have to do that if they only need a PC to check email once a week? I feel their old windows 98 should be good enough, but no, MS is greedy and expects folks to keep on buyin' ... and never mind that alot of elderly are on fixed incomes and get a needed lift when chey check email and see an email & pict of the grandkids that may live halfway cross the country that they may only get lucky enough to see twice in person before their time on earth is through.

merrylander
09-13-2009, 07:28 AM
Reading about the demonstrations down the road yesterday and maybe I was wrong. I am starting to believe that they should not have done any bailouts and they should forget about healthcare.

Figure that by now unemployment would be arouns 25% or more. The lumberyards would be so badly in need of business that the wood to redo our deck would be dirt cheap. Able bodied men would be only too happy to get some money that that they would work for $5.00 per hour.

After all we have health care insurance, I am retired so screw the labor market. Yeah, I should adopt the Jack System "Screw you Jack, I've got mine":rolleyes:

Charles
09-13-2009, 05:46 PM
As bad as bailing out the banks was, I suppose it was necessary to prevent a collapse of the financial markets. It's not that the bailout was rotten, it's the financial markets, and the Federal Reserve system that are rotten. As to the stimulus pkg, it could have been better thought out.

Personally, I enjoy seeing people turn out to these tea parties and town halls. It shows that the public is finally taking an interest in politics. And are expecting our elected officials to look after the interests of the citizens, as opposed to the interests of the deep pockets who have put, and kept them in office.

But in the end, I doubt whether anything will improve our lot. I'll continue to turn out and vote for the perceived lesser of two evils, and pray that they don't start another civil war before I'm dead. Kind of a selfish attitude, but then again, why should I be any different than anyone else.

Other than I won't screw you simply because I can.

Chas

noonereal
09-14-2009, 07:11 AM
As bad as bailing out the banks was, I suppose it was necessary to prevent a collapse of the financial markets. It's not that the bailout was rotten, it's the financial markets, and the Federal Reserve system that are rotten. As to the stimulus pkg, it could have been better thought out.


As is eerily becoming the case I am in total agreement.


Personally, I enjoy seeing people turn out to these tea parties and town halls. It shows that the public is finally taking an interest in politics. And are expecting our elected officials to look after the interests of the citizens, as opposed to the interests of the deep pockets who have put, and kept them in office.


I see a bunch of people being lead around by the nose.

But in the end, I doubt whether anything will improve our lot. I'll continue to turn out and vote for the perceived lesser of two evils, and pray that they don't start another civil war before I'm dead. Kind of a selfish attitude, but then again, why should I be any different than anyone else.

Other than I won't screw you simply because I can.

Chas

Same here.

noonereal
09-14-2009, 07:15 AM
Reading about the demonstrations down the road yesterday and maybe I was wrong. I am starting to believe that they should not have done any bailouts and they should forget about healthcare.



I am in favorer of national health care but this is just not how to do it.

I do not support Obama on this.


(and I detest the right for twisting, lying and undermining what they know is best for the people that elected hem)

noonereal
09-14-2009, 07:18 AM
I agree with you on all but the health care, just the thought of the government running anything else just doesn't sit well with alot of us folks. .


Please tell me what is wrong with Medicare.



I think everyone should live one year in 1900 before they champion themselves a proud capitalist who is against progressive government.

merrylander
09-14-2009, 07:33 AM
Tea Parties hoho, the original was kind of staged as well. The colonies asked the mother country for troops to put down the Indian raids on the western front. The mother country sent the troops and also sent the bill in the form of the tea tax, after all why should the citizens of England pick up the tab? The fact that the tax was also to help out the East India company, and General Cornwallis was an incompetent bumbler did not really affect the outcome.

It is much the same today, people say the government is incompetent, then for Heaven's sake don't vote for them. If you want to know what the problem is look in a mirror. Lou Dobbs favorite expression is that both parties are wings of the same bird. Then start a new party, some of you like Ron Paul (too simplistic for my taste) some people did vote for Ralph Nader and the Green party. The whole concept of a two party system seems entrenched in this country. Keep going down that road and you will never see any improvement. One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome.

What were the lyrics - "Freedom is just another name for nothing more to lose." Like it or not people need each other, it is called society, and no, screwing each other is not the way to achieve it.

Some folks like to believe that this is a Christian nation, well apparently this form of Christianity only has nine commandments.

Bigerik
09-14-2009, 11:39 AM
Tea Parties hoho, the original was kind of staged as well. The colonies asked the mother country for troops to put down the Indian raids on the western front. The mother country sent the troops and also sent the bill in the form of the tea tax, after all why should the citizens of England pick up the tab? The fact that the tax was also to help out the East India company, and General Cornwallis was an incompetent bumbler did not really affect the outcome.

It is much the same today, people say the government is incompetent, then for Heaven's sake don't vote for them. If you want to know what the problem is look in a mirror. Lou Dobbs favorite expression is that both parties are wings of the same bird. Then start a new party, some of you like Ron Paul (too simplistic for my taste) some people did vote for Ralph Nader and the Green party. The whole concept of a two party system seems entrenched in this country. Keep going down that road and you will never see any improvement. One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome.

What were the lyrics - "Freedom is just another name for nothing more to lose." Like it or not people need each other, it is called society, and no, screwing each other is not the way to achieve it.

Some folks like to believe that this is a Christian nation, well apparently this form of Christianity only has nine commandments.

Fine post, Rob.

Bigerik
09-14-2009, 11:42 AM
I am in favorer of national health care but this is just not how to do it.

I do not support Obama on this.


(and I detest the right for twisting, lying and undermining what they know is best for the people that elected hem)

What is wrong with how he is doing it?

Other than the fact that he is keeping too much of the free market in an area where there is a HUGE conflict of interest between the insurance providers and their customers?

spasmo55
09-14-2009, 12:20 PM
Please tell me what is wrong with Medicare.

Other than the fact that it will be broke before I get there, eventhough I and my employers have been paying in based on "MY" income, nothing! Wait a minute, it does not work well without supplements, so like many things the gov't manages it is a half a** solution that makes a great issue to promote when you are looking for the backing of the AARP.

I think everyone should live one year in 1900 before they champion themselves a proud capitalist who is against progressive government.

They might also learn to be self reliant, responsible for themselves and family and be productive, now there is a scary thought.

Bigerik
09-14-2009, 12:28 PM
They might also learn to be self reliant, responsible for themselves and family and be productive, now there is a scary thought.

And dead by the age of 48...

noonereal
09-14-2009, 02:10 PM
What is wrong with how he is doing it?

Other than the fact that he is keeping too much of the free market in an area where there is a HUGE conflict of interest between the insurance providers and their customers?

That is exactly the problem. There will be no cost cutting as virtually nothing will charge in the private market. Don't tell me about dropping pre existing conditions. The only reason this will change is because 50 million new folks will be forced to buy insurance from the Insurance companies. The profits enjoyed from that will more than outweigh the preexisting inclusion costs, hence Insurance companies are on board.

The drug benefit added to Medicare is a prime example of smoke and mirrors.
The biggest beneficiary of that was the drug companies, not the little guy as we are lead to believe.
This is the same crap.

We need the profit taken out of health care and a single payee. Most anything else is a disguise.

Bigerik
09-14-2009, 02:25 PM
That is exactly the problem. There will be no cost cutting as virtually nothing will charge in the private market. Don't tell me about dropping pre existing conditions. The only reason this will change is because 50 million new folks will be forced to buy insurance from the Insurance companies. The profits enjoyed from that will more than outweigh the preexisting inclusion costs, hence Insurance companies are on board.

The drug benefit added to Medicare is a prime example of smoke and mirrors.
The biggest beneficiary of that was the drug companies, not the little guy as we are lead to believe.
This is the same crap.

We need the profit taken out of health care and a single payee. Most anything else is a disguise.

Yeah, but that would be socialism. Maybe even Communism!

noonereal
09-14-2009, 02:45 PM
Other than the fact that it will be broke before I get there, eventhough I and my employers have been paying in based on "MY" income, nothing! Wait a minute, it does not work well without supplements, so like many things the gov't manages it is a half a** solution that makes a great issue to promote when you are looking for the backing of the AARP.

And why is that? Because the huge surpluses were raped by Bush?
I know you don't want to hear this but you are not self reliant. You are part of a community and you need to both contribute and benefit from it.

They might also learn to be self reliant, responsible for themselves and family and be productive, now there is a scary thought.

Yes we could lean to live again with repeated food poisonings, missing limbs, 80 hour work weeks and our kids at work instead of school.

We could enjoy an early death to boot.

piece-itpete
09-14-2009, 03:14 PM
What huge surpluses are you referring to?

And todays health care is one looooong way from free market.

Pete

painter
09-14-2009, 03:56 PM
What huge surpluses are you referring to?

And todays health care is one looooong way from free market.

Pete



Plain and simple...tariffs on ALL imports. :D

Charles
09-14-2009, 07:10 PM
I'm afraid that we're stuck with a two party system. The only way a third party will have an effect is if they're perceived as having a viable chance of winning, and not simply splitting the vote. Which will be difficult, as the media will do everything in it's power to discredit any threat to the status quo.

If you don't like things as they are, just consider that before long people will be calling these "the good ol' days".

Chas

spasmo55
09-15-2009, 07:08 AM
And dead by the age of 48...

Perhaps by design we are supposed to be!

Why is the "quality" of the human life determined by the quantity?

merrylander
09-15-2009, 07:09 AM
Suppose they gave another election and everyone stayed home?

merrylander
09-15-2009, 07:12 AM
Health care Shmelth care, off to the dentist's today then stop for a flu shot on the way home. Not a bad deal $96.40 a month for Medicare and I get one flu shot a year. Even though I go five years between check-ups they won't pay for that.

noonereal
09-15-2009, 09:29 AM
What huge surpluses are you referring to?

And todays health care is one looooong way from free market.

Pete

Under Clinton, social security had large surplus that we "borrowed" to balance the budget.

Without raiding this surplus, Clinton would not have been able to claim that he had a balanced budget.

Why do you want to support the inventor class when you are faced with life and death choices? I just don't get it.

piece-itpete
09-15-2009, 12:19 PM
Yes, the 'surplus' was a myth covered by one of the most regressive taxes around. Smoke and mirrors, it was really still deficit spending.

And a pretty hard cut in the military, as if once the USSR was through there'd never be another threat.

Protect who? The only way to contain health care costs is rationing. Right now the evil insurance industry takes the heat. How on earth can an elected government deny exorbitant experimental treatments to anyone and everyone?

And I bet the judiciary is salivating over the thought of a heath care bill.

Pete

merrylander
09-15-2009, 01:53 PM
I believe what Congress will eventually come up with is something like the TV commercial where the guy is sitting there with a steak knife and the doc is giving instructions for an appendectomy over the phone. Poor guy say "Doc. don't you think you should be doing this?":rolleyes:

merrylander
09-15-2009, 02:02 PM
Despite all the cries of socialism it was the Conservative party that instituted the Single Payer plan. They did so in the belief that its citizens are any nation's best natural resource so it would be wise to ensure thier care. Of course we live in a throw-away society, even citizens get thrown away.

What I am waiting to see from some of these rugged -I don't need anyone - individualists is their report on do it yourself surgerey.:D

piece-itpete
09-15-2009, 03:09 PM
Does cutting my own splinters out count? :)

I'm not against reforming the system. But why would we rush something so large and important?

Pete

hillbilly
09-15-2009, 03:32 PM
Does cutting my own splinters out count? :)

I'm not against reforming the system. But why would we rush something so large and important?

Pete


Thank you.

The other day Obie was on tv saying that since he wrote the new health care bill , that he 'owns' it. He says he plans to cut medicare costs by 500 billion bucks. So, rushing into this, just what exactly are old folks gonna be doing without?

To fast, with to little explaining. Can't trust as many of us will be old one day also. My poor old mother inlaw is not able, and at age 83 close to deaths door she only gets 14 dollars a month in food stamps.The family has to pitch in to feed her. Now I always thought the system was put in place for the elderly, but seeing all those young able body folks 'walking' into the store and shelling out 200-300 in food stamps REALLY CHAPS MY ASS.

Charles
09-15-2009, 04:10 PM
I believe what Congress will eventually come up with is something like the TV commercial where the guy is sitting there with a steak knife and the doc is giving instructions for an appendectomy over the phone. Poor guy say "Doc. don't you think you should be doing this?":rolleyes:

This is perhaps with wittiest post I believe that I've read here.

My hat's off to you, Sir.

Chas

merrylander
09-15-2009, 04:13 PM
And yet you yell socialism about countries that look after their people. Canada grants a old age pension to all citizens. If that is your only income you can also get a supplement of up to $635 per month.

Some will tell you that taxes are higher there but that is comparing apples to oranges. Their income tax is a single amount, this covers CPP (like SS) federal tax, provincial tax and a small amount for health care over and above the monthly provicial charge. People tend to compare that to just our federal income tax forgetting that to be accurate you have to include FICA, state income tax and county income tax. Having worked in both countries I found the totals to be within 1 or 2% for the same given income. So your MIL would be getting healthcare and over $1000 per month.

As to rushing into it, Congress has kicked this can down the road for forty years, how many more does it bloody well take? If the republicans and blue dogs would get the finger out and contribute something it could have been done already.

merrylander
09-15-2009, 04:14 PM
You are most welcome Chas.

Charles
09-15-2009, 04:37 PM
And yet you yell socialism about countries that look after their people. Canada grants a old age pension to all citizens. If that is your only income you can also get a supplement of up to $635 per month.

Some will tell you that taxes are higher there but that is comparing apples to oranges. Their income tax is a single amount, this covers CPP (like SS) federal tax, provincial tax and a small amount for health care over and above the monthly provicial charge. People tend to compare that to just our federal income tax forgetting that to be accurate you have to include FICA, state income tax and county income tax. Having worked in both countries I found the totals to be within 1 or 2% for the same given income. So your MIL would be getting healthcare and over $1000 per month.

As to rushing into it, Congress has kicked this can down the road for forty years, how many more does it bloody well take? If the republicans and blue dogs would get the finger out and contribute something it could have been done already.

Are you addressing me?

Chas

merrylander
09-16-2009, 07:38 AM
Naw, it was meant for hillbilly's complaint about how his MIL is being treated. Somehow I am sure that she is entitled to better treatment by SS.

The last bit was for Pete's 'why rush things'

noonereal
09-16-2009, 07:57 AM
Does cutting my own splinters out count? :)

I'm not against reforming the system. But why would we rush something so large and important?

Pete

Rushing????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????/

This goes back to Truman!!!!!!!!!!

cabinover
09-16-2009, 09:09 AM
And still they can't get any bill with hardened facts and numbers. Just the same old bullshit, "We'll make it up as we go but you dummies just go ahead and call your senators to get this passed."

noonereal
09-16-2009, 09:24 AM
Why can't we?

There is a reason.

piece-itpete
09-16-2009, 10:35 AM
Rushing????????????????????????????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????
????????????????????????????????????/

This goes back to Truman!!!!!!!!!!

Then why isn't the bill actually been READ????????????????

Pete

merrylander
09-16-2009, 10:58 AM
Because we have 535 prima donnas sitting on their butts down there.

piece-itpete
09-16-2009, 11:40 AM
It's amazing, how Congress has abdicated responsibility and handed it to lobbyists and bureaucrats.

Sounds strange to our ears nowadays, but we could sure use Hoover for healthcare (committee ability).

Pete

merrylander
09-16-2009, 12:04 PM
I wonder, how does a private citizen take something to SCOTUS. They seem to be in a mode to overturn precedent, how about overturning the decision that said lobbying was guaranteed by the Constitution.

noonereal
09-16-2009, 01:05 PM
Then why isn't the bill actually been READ????????????????

Pete

Because it is changed so often by the pressure of the profit in controlling pain suffering and death.

get the profit out of health care!

Bigerik
09-17-2009, 11:19 AM
get the profit out of health care!

That SHOULD be the rallying cry of the American citizen.

noonereal
09-17-2009, 12:04 PM
it is for me

JJIII
09-17-2009, 12:06 PM
Then who is going to go into the field?

BlueStreak
10-31-2009, 12:20 AM
In a word----Marijuana.

Not taxing it---smoking it.

Wouldn't really solve any problems, we just wouldn't care anymore.
And when it really comes down to it. What's the difference?

Dave

HatchetJack
11-01-2009, 08:54 PM
Everyone has an opinion on the economy, here's mine: Its kinda like an
ecosystem in a body of water thats out of balance. The sharks are hungry
but so are the minnows. It takes algae to have plankton to have minnows
to have bream to have bass and so on. The bailouts are just feeding the
sharks. This economy needs fertilizing and to the way to do that is by
creating jobs. Congress cant create jobs but what it could do is make
it easier to do business inside the United States as opposed to outside.
Taxing and inspecting these large and small businesses to death has
sent them overseas. We have to create incentive for companies to
produce things in this country. Someone needs to grow a pair and blockade
the shipping ports and not allow that cheap crap in the country. Almost
no ones left that can even afford to buy the stuff anyway. People need a
place to work and live the American dream and not be led to believe that
the government will take care of them. Any money earned at the bottom of
the pond makes its rounds to the top eventually and everyone's happy.

d-ray657
11-01-2009, 09:16 PM
Everyone has an opinion on the economy, here's mine: Its kinda like an
ecosystem in a body of water thats out of balance. The sharks are hungry
but so are the minnows. It takes algae to have plankton to have minnows
to have bream to have bass and so on. The bailouts are just feeding the
sharks. This economy needs fertilizing and to the way to do that is by
creating jobs. Congress cant create jobs but what it could do is make
it easier to do business inside the United States as opposed to outside.
Taxing and inspecting these large and small businesses to death has
sent them overseas. We have to create incentive for companies to
produce things in this country. Someone needs to grow a pair and blockade
the shipping ports and not allow that cheap crap in the country. Almost
no ones left that can even afford to buy the stuff anyway. People need a
place to work and live the American dream and not be led to believe that
the government will take care of them. Any money earned at the bottom of
the pond makes its rounds to the top eventually and everyone's happy.

As long as those in the bottom of the pond know their role, right? The working stiffs are simply plankton working their way up to feed the sharks in the executive suite. That's pretty much how it's running now.

Regards,

D-Ray

noonereal
11-02-2009, 05:25 AM
Everyone has an opinion on the economy, here's mine: Its kinda like an
ecosystem in a body of water thats out of balance. The sharks are hungry
but so are the minnows. It takes algae to have plankton to have minnows
to have bream to have bass and so on. The bailouts are just feeding the
sharks. This economy needs fertilizing and to the way to do that is by
creating jobs. Congress cant create jobs but what it could do is make
it easier to do business inside the United States as opposed to outside.
Taxing and inspecting these large and small businesses to death has
sent them overseas. We have to create incentive for companies to
produce things in this country. Someone needs to grow a pair and blockade
the shipping ports and not allow that cheap crap in the country. Almost
no ones left that can even afford to buy the stuff anyway. People need a
place to work and live the American dream and not be led to believe that
the government will take care of them. Any money earned at the bottom of
the pond makes its rounds to the top eventually and everyone's happy.

Was gonna comment but the metaphor is so convoluted that it stifled me.
Seems like you "pulled a Palin." ;)

merrylander
11-02-2009, 07:15 AM
The American Dream, did it ever really exist for those on the bottom rung of the ladder? Some could say that we (my wife and I) have achieved it, but I did not start at the bottom. Admittedly I made less money here at the beginning than I had been earning in Canada, but in the long haul we did all right. But the expression "Only in America" can be taken many ways, some of them make me want to hum a few bars of 'Jingo Bells".:rolleyes:

HatchetJack
11-02-2009, 11:01 AM
I didnt expect the left to agree with me but I'm right and they know it.
Lets take their approach and see what happens. Lets starve the sharks
and feed the minnows until all the fish are the same size. We will give the
same ration of food to all the fish. Suddenly all the fish are stunted bluegills
and there is not enough to go around. Because the sharks were not allowed
to prosper in their own pond, they turned to another pond where they started
fertilizing and that pond has grown by leaps and bounds and with no plankton/jobs
to feed our pond it will become stagnant and dead just like the Soviet Union and that
is where we are heading unless we can change the trade deficit to favor
our economy instead of some communist country.

BlueStreak
11-02-2009, 12:12 PM
Once I weeded through all of your goofy fish analogies, I came to a few simple questions.

There is something to suggest that our government, regardless of whose in charge is ever going to "blockade the shipping ports"? And who would carry out said blockades if not the Navy (U.S. Government)? You? But we shouldn't look to the government to solve any problems:confused:????

Do you like those cheap Walmart prices? Will you be the first to be happy to go to work for the low wages and lack of benefits that competition with slave-labor nations creates? Oh, that's right, you don't support free trade, but consider yourself to be "pro-capitalism conservative":confused:????

Will you be happy to pay the higher prices that protectionism would create?

Taxes? Hmmmm. I got a small tax cut lately. Yeah, it's not much, but it is a tax cut. But there are still people tossing tea.........Hmmmm, WTF?

Well, I'm out of time. This "minnow" has to go make sure the "sharks" have eaten enough to keep them happy. As if THAT is even possible. Sharks have always struck me as being ruthless, insatiable eaters.

Dave

noonereal
11-02-2009, 12:12 PM
I didnt expect the left to agree with me but I'm right and they know it.
Lets take their approach and see what happens. Lets starve the sharks
and feed the minnows until all the fish are the same size. We will give the
same ration of food to all the fish. Suddenly all the fish are stunted bluegills
and there is not enough to go around. Because the sharks were not allowed
to prosper in their own pond, they turned to another pond where they started
fertilizing and that pond has grown by leaps and bounds and with no plankton/jobs
to feed our pond it will become stagnant and dead just like the Soviet Union and that
is where we are heading unless we can change the trade deficit to favor
our economy instead of some communist country.

you are making me sea sick

merrylander
11-02-2009, 03:05 PM
Once I weeded through all of your goofy fish analogies, I came to a few simple questions.

Taxes? Hmmmm. I got a small tax cut lately. Yeah, it's not much, but it is a tax cut. But there are still people tossing tea.........Hmmmm, WTF?

Dave

Fish analogies just made me barf.

Those 'Tea Parties' are as phony as the first one was.

BlueStreak
11-04-2009, 12:58 PM
Well, I'm off to feed the Sharks again.

We had a very interesting meeting yeaterday. We were told by our ingenious captains of capitalsit industry that their new strategy for the plants future is to ,(basically), supply our customers with less choices at a lower quality level.

All of this in a bad economy? I guess I'll be the next to join the ranks of the unemployed?

Dumbasses.

Dave

HatchetJack
11-04-2009, 02:50 PM
Ok, lets try this again: Farmer Brown runs the old family farm. He has a nice
home complete with a nice barn, a new tractor, a restored muscle car and
his wife drives a Lexus. One day the chickens, goats band together and
demand he feed them more because he has too much money. He and his wife
really didnt earn it anyway. So Farmer brown has no choice but to double
the animals rations. The animals pigged out and refused to work. They got
in terrible shape and now want farmer Brown to pony up for their healthcare
that they didnt need when they grazed the pastures. Farmer Brown is now
in debt that he cant pay and owes money the animals never realized took
to run the Farm. Farmer Brown's brother bought a farm in China after the
last uprising of the Chickens and goats and is now sitting pretty because
his Chickens and Goats are content with what they have and now he sells
his goods at much lower prices than his brother back in America can. The
Chickens and goats will eventually see what has happened to them and
vote in Farmer Browns favor but as soon as their situation improves they
will once again vote against themselves not even realizing it especially if
he dynamites the beaver dams that were a threat to the property.

d-ray657
11-04-2009, 03:06 PM
Ok, lets try this again: Farmer Brown runs the old family farm. He has a nice
home complete with a nice barn, a new tractor, a restored muscle car and
his wife drives a Lexus. One day the chickens, goats band together and
demand he feed them more because he has too much money. He and his wife
really didnt earn it anyway. So Farmer brown has no choice but to double
the animals rations. The animals pigged out and refused to work. They got
in terrible shape and now want farmer Brown to pony up for their healthcare
that they didnt need when they grazed the pastures. Farmer Brown is now
in debt that he cant pay and owes money the animals never realized took
to run the Farm. Farmer Brown's brother bought a farm in China after the
last uprising of the Chickens and goats and is now sitting pretty because
his Chickens and Goats are content with what they have and now he sells
his goods at much lower prices than his brother back in America can. The
Chickens and goats will eventually see what has happened to them and
vote in Farmer Browns favor but as soon as their situation improves they
will once again vote against themselves not even realizing it especially if
he dynamites the beaver dams that were a threat to the property.

Pleased to meet you Mr. Orwell.

Another fairy tale where the workers are reduced to animals. Workers are human beings who contribute to the production of wealth.

Nevertheless, let's follow through with the analogy. If left to his own devices, the farmer will give the animals just enough to eat so that they stay fat until they are butchered. He doesn't want them to be able to afford a house of their own; they'e got a barn to live in, right. (Oops that's sounds like a commune). If they get too sick to work, or if an illness devalues their meat, he shoots them. He'll only pay the vet bills when he's sure he'll get a return on the investment. They are only allowed to have sex when he determines he wants to increase the herd. Otherwise, there's no need to engage in such sinful behavior. What's the retirement plan - the glue factory. He was a productive horse when he was young, but now he adds more to the bottom line as a carcas to be sold for scrap. As long as the bottom line works out, the farmer is happy. If one or two of the farm animals meet their maker along the way, that's just the cost of doing business.

Regards,

D-Ray

Regards,

D-Ray

HatchetJack
11-04-2009, 04:08 PM
Sorry D-Ray, I know it aint fair but thats the way it is, always has been and the only way the machine runs. Everybody cant be Chief and Boss Hog's gotta eat.

d-ray657
11-04-2009, 07:44 PM
That type of attitude by employers is the best help a union organizer could ask for. Workers who are treated like animals, who don't receive medical benefits, who are sent packing at management's whim, and who are paid whatever the employer sees fit to pay, are going to be sufficiently antagonized that they will be desperate for someone to show them how to combine their forces for the benefit of all.

Regards,

D-Ray

Charles
11-04-2009, 08:50 PM
When I was 18, and worked at the turkey plant, we were represented by the Teamsters. We didn't get paid shit.

Now my Dad drove a truck, and was represented by the Teamsters. He did well.

Go figure.

Chas

BlueStreak
11-05-2009, 12:08 AM
Pleased to meet you Mr. Orwell.

Another fairy tale where the workers are reduced to animals. Workers are human beings who contribute to the production of wealth.

Nevertheless, let's follow through with the analogy. If left to his own devices, the farmer will give the animals just enough to eat so that they stay fat until they are butchered. He doesn't want them to be able to afford a house of their own; they'e got a barn to live in, right. (Oops that's sounds like a commune). If they get too sick to work, or if an illness devalues their meat, he shoots them. He'll only pay the vet bills when he's sure he'll get a return on the investment. They are only allowed to have sex when he determines he wants to increase the herd. Otherwise, there's no need to engage in such sinful behavior. What's the retirement plan - the glue factory. He was a productive horse when he was young, but now he adds more to the bottom line as a carcas to be sold for scrap. As long as the bottom line works out, the farmer is happy. If one or two of the farm animals meet their maker along the way, that's just the cost of doing business.

Regards,

D-Ray

Regards,

D-Ray

LMAO!!!!!!!

Dave

BlueStreak
11-05-2009, 12:41 AM
Ok, lets try this again: Farmer Brown runs the old family farm. He has a nice
home complete with a nice barn, a new tractor, a restored muscle car and
his wife drives a Lexus. One day the chickens, goats band together and
demand he feed them more because he has too much money. He and his wife
really didnt earn it anyway. So Farmer brown has no choice but to double
the animals rations. The animals pigged out and refused to work. They got
in terrible shape and now want farmer Brown to pony up for their healthcare
that they didnt need when they grazed the pastures. Farmer Brown is now
in debt that he cant pay and owes money the animals never realized took
to run the Farm. Farmer Brown's brother bought a farm in China after the
last uprising of the Chickens and goats and is now sitting pretty because
his Chickens and Goats are content with what they have and now he sells
his goods at much lower prices than his brother back in America can. The
Chickens and goats will eventually see what has happened to them and
vote in Farmer Browns favor but as soon as their situation improves they
will once again vote against themselves not even realizing it especially if
he dynamites the beaver dams that were a threat to the property.

Are you on acid?

Let me tell YOU a little story;

A group of guys who fancy themselves to be really smart, are running a factory. The factory has a few problems, much of it's equipment was built during the HOOVER administration. It needs to be modernized. And the addition of more canning lines has outstripped the processing departments ability to supply the lines. The smart guys spend 6.2 million dollars and two years working their way from the END of the production chain UPSTREAM until they run out of money before reaching the heart of the operation---the processing department, where the basic product is made. So, now, the factory runs no more (Actually less.) finished product than it did two years ago because you cannot run a canning line, regardless of how much you've spent on it-----with no fucking PRODUCT! Now that the economy is stuggling and our volume has dropped, these super-geniuses have decided to "save money" by lowering the quality of the product, and offering our customers LESS choices.

Let's see. What do you suppose is going to happen when the customers start getting SUBSTANDARD product to put on their shelves? I suspect it might mean that soon, the only thing passing through that plant----will be the FUCKING WIND!

I'm sorry if I sound angry, but this is my livelyhood we're talking about now.
And your condescending, childish, fish and animal stories have plucked my last nerve. I know all too damn well how the capitalist system works. I think all of us here are well aquainted with it. We're not little kids, we're all grown men and women.

Dave

JCricket
11-05-2009, 06:47 AM
Hey folks,
Who knows the stories of the triangle shirt factory fire? How about the ludlow massacre? Maybe Mother MAry Jones?

How many of you have read how Carnegie and Rockefeller gained their wealth?

Unfettered capitalism doesn't work and destroys the workers. Ever play monopoly - it has that name for a reason. Who wins - the guy with the money after everyone else has been destroyed.

HatchetJack,
Your example is well, um, how do I pout this. --NUTS!
Ther may be a grain of truth here and there, but mostly it is a stereotypical assement filled with hate and little facts. It is more of a lament of the woes of those who wish to be all powerful and greedy tahn reality. Mostly, it is filled with leading exagerations and little data. Sorry, but I gotta call you on this one.

HatchetJack
11-05-2009, 07:12 AM
Dave, I'm on your side. If the blue collar worker in this country does not
prosper no one does. I do not believe that our employers should run over
us but I think voting for a system that punishes success and rewards failure
is just biting the hand that feeds us. We have to put corporate America in
a better position to have success. Higher taxes and stricter govenment
regulations is certainly not the answer. We have to fix this or we all go down
together. We also can not compete with workers from other countries who
live in bambo huts and are fine with eating a handfull of rice every day. Your
company was wise to try and retool for the future. If they would have shown
that 6 million in profit, would our administration have used their 3 million dollar cut
in a way to benefit this country?

JCricket
11-05-2009, 07:44 AM
Agreed, there is no way we can compete with a worker in china who is satisfied eating a handful ofrice everyday. But, is that really the case?
I believe that China's economy is mostly doing well(or at least was until the buble popped).
I think as it grows it will cahnge to an economy more like ours. The days of the unions in china are coming - unless opressed by their government. When people over there get fed up with a handful of rice, what will happen?

The current issue is the desparity in the standard of living between them and us. This has caused companies to outsource as you pointed out. Once again, the company was more interested in profit than its employees.

I also agree taht too much regulation will stifle the growth of a company. But, these laws didn't just come in on the shirtails of the greedy. They were made by neccessity.

When a companies only concern is profit, their only concern will be profit. They will put aside the welfare of their employees, the environment, and everything else in pursuit of the almighty dollar.

So the question, how do you reach a balance? Well, I am not that smart to be able to figure taht one out.

Mark
AKA - Cricket

merrylander
11-05-2009, 07:55 AM
Dave, I'm on your side. If the blue collar worker in this country does not
prosper no one does. I do not believe that our employers should run over
us but I think voting for a system that punishes success and rewards failure
is just biting the hand that feeds us. We have to put corporate America in
a better position to have success. Higher taxes and stricter govenment
regulations is certainly not the answer. We have to fix this or we all go down
together. We also can not compete with workers from other countries who
live in bambo huts and are fine with eating a handfull of rice every day. Your
company was wise to try and retool for the future. If they would have shown
that 6 million in profit, would our administration have used their 3 million dollar cut
in a way to benefit this country?


Tax cuts, tax cuts, sheesh, our infrastructure is in the toilet to the point that locals tend to call DC Baghdad on the Ptomac. We have let these capitalist geneii destroy our manufacturing base. We are engaged in a war of stupidity, not necessity - Afghanistan is the world's leading heroin producer for God's sake. And all I get from the right is "we must be self reliant". I have news for y'all, the only person in this country that I have absolute reliance upon is my wife. No one else has even given me the sweat off their balls and I have never asked for anything. Do I like paying taxes? Hell no, but I also don't like living in what is rapidly becoming a third world country. Roads dont maintain themselves, neither do bridges (although I have never understood the way we build them,has no one ever heard of pre-stressed concrete?). Power failures are a normal occurance here and the price of electricity is exhorbitant, why? Because we left it all up to private industry who were more interested in raking off the profits than maintaining the plant. People complain about letting the government run things, then show me one good example of where private industry did a good job? I do believe they could even screw up the Lord's Prayer.

noonereal
11-05-2009, 08:59 AM
Tax cuts, tax cuts, sheesh, our infrastructure is in the toilet to the point that locals tend to call DC Baghdad on the Ptomac. We have let these capitalist geneii destroy our manufacturing base. We are engaged in a war of stupidity, not necessity - Afghanistan is the world's leading heroin producer for God's sake. And all I get from the right is "we must be self reliant". I have news for y'all, the only person in this country that I have absolute reliance upon is my wife. No one else has even given me the sweat off their balls and I have never asked for anything. Do I like paying taxes? Hell no, but I also don't like living in what is rapidly becoming a third world country. Roads dont maintain themselves, neither do bridges (although I have never understood the way we build them,has no one ever heard of pre-stressed concrete?). Power failures are a normal occurance here and the price of electricity is exhorbitant, why? Because we left it all up to private industry who were more interested in raking off the profits than maintaining the plant. People complain about letting the government run things, then show me one good example of where private industry did a good job? I do believe they could even screw up the Lord's Prayer.

yet another excellent post :)

BlueStreak
11-05-2009, 09:08 AM
Hey folks,
Who knows the stories of the triangle shirt factory fire? How about the ludlow massacre? Maybe Mother MAry Jones?

How many of you have read how Carnegie and Rockefeller gained their wealth?

Unfettered capitalism doesn't work and destroys the workers. Ever play monopoly - it has that name for a reason. Who wins - the guy with the money after everyone else has been destroyed.

HatchetJack,
Your example is well, um, how do I pout this. --NUTS!
Ther may be a grain of truth here and there, but mostly it is a stereotypical assement filled with hate and little facts. It is more of a lament of the woes of those who wish to be all powerful and greedy tahn reality. Mostly, it is filled with leading exagerations and little data. Sorry, but I gotta call you on this one.


Thank you.

BlueStreak
11-05-2009, 09:49 AM
Dave, I'm on your side. If the blue collar worker in this country does not
prosper no one does. I do not believe that our employers should run over
us but I think voting for a system that punishes success and rewards failure
is just biting the hand that feeds us. We have to put corporate America in
a better position to have success. Higher taxes and stricter govenment
regulations is certainly not the answer. We have to fix this or we all go down
together. We also can not compete with workers from other countries who
live in bambo huts and are fine with eating a handfull of rice every day. Your
company was wise to try and retool for the future. If they would have shown
that 6 million in profit, would our administration have used their 3 million dollar cut
in a way to benefit this country?

I believe you think you are.

In a perfect world, but unfortunately...........................

The people who run my factory screw up nearly everything they touch.
And you don't dare speak up and confront them with it, because they are the massive intellect that the entire universe is built upon. At least that's what Limbaugh has told them. Tell them they're wrong, then go ahead and paint the target on your back. Start looking for another job.

(And I've been around long enough and worked in enough places to know it probably isn't much different anywhere else.)

Our government did try to give billions to the biggest capitalists in the world, in the hopes that these wise and benevolent pillars of society would use it in a way that would benefit us all. And what have they done with it?

Pheasant hunting in Scotland, fat bonuses, corporate junkets to lavish resorts around the world, etc., etc., etc. ad nauseum. Then on top of it all they take whatever is left and SIT on it, raise interest rates dramatically, and start whining that they need Uncle Barrack to give them more.

What kills me is all of you who think voting REPUBLICAN is somehow going to fix this. It was a Republican that started giving them our tax money. Have you forgotten that? It's Republicans that think FEEDING the GREED will somehow satisfy it. That turning a blind eye to what these people do is the answer to our problems. How so? What they fail to see is that GREED is never, ever satisfied. That's why your Bible tells you (Or at least attempts to tell you.) that "the love of money is the root of all EVIL."
(And please spare me the "Greed is not necessarily the love of money." argument that I heard Limbaugh try to use, years ago. That's rediculous.)

Sorry, Hatchet. But I stand by my response to your "fish" analogy; "From what I've seen, Sharks are just ruthless and insatiable eaters." Trying to satisfy their greed is a fools venture.

BTW, If you want to work for a handfull of rice, have at it. If you try to drag me down to that level there is GOING to be a fight.

Have a nice day!:D

Dave

piece-itpete
11-05-2009, 09:59 AM
I guess I'm fortunate to work for a good company. It did take quite a bit of job swapping to get here though.

Pete

BlueStreak
11-05-2009, 10:12 AM
I guess I'm fortunate to work for a good company. It did take quite a bit of job swapping to get here though.

Pete


Well, good for you. You and TD are very fortunate, apparently.
At some point a body grows tired of "swapping jobs".

Dave

HatchetJack
11-05-2009, 12:22 PM
I cant believe some of you still dont see my point. My point was that feeding
the sharks with bailouts is not the answer. America has to be rebuilt from the
bottom with jobs. Giving the money at the bottom might have helped the
economy short term but we have to keep the money circulating. The only
way we can do that is to ease up taxes and government regulations on
companies that employ workers so that we can be more competitive with the
rest of the world. Somehow we also have to plug that hole in the economy
that is China. If we point fingers at employers and accuse them of being
greedy and demand we be paid more, are we not just as greedy as they.
If they make 20 million a year and strive to make 22 million are they any
more guilty than the worker that makes 20 per hour and wants 22?
I have tried to make a simple point but some of you are on witch hunt to
hang me when I am only trying to help. I think both parties are guilty of
putting us in the position we are in and I am not trying to steer anybody red.
I never said big companies should run over the little guys but we are all in this
together and there has to be balance. We need to stop lashing out at one
another and demand more action from our leaders.

d-ray657
11-05-2009, 12:51 PM
I didnt expect the left to agree with me but I'm right and they know it.


I cant believe some of you still dont see my point.

I have tried to make a simple point but some of you are on witch hunt to
hang me when I am only trying to help.

Sometimes attitude invites attitude. Claiming to have personal control of the truth can invite responses about the person in control. You also might agree that your avatar is a bit provacative. When you shoot your rifle, you better be ready for a little back kick.

Regards,

D-Ray

BlueStreak
11-06-2009, 12:09 AM
I cant believe some of you still dont see my point. My point was that feeding
the sharks with bailouts is not the answer. America has to be rebuilt from the
bottom with jobs. Giving the money at the bottom might have helped the
economy short term but we have to keep the money circulating. The only
way we can do that is to ease up taxes and government regulations on
companies that employ workers so that we can be more competitive with the
rest of the world. Somehow we also have to plug that hole in the economy
that is China. If we point fingers at employers and accuse them of being
greedy and demand we be paid more, are we not just as greedy as they.
If they make 20 million a year and strive to make 22 million are they any
more guilty than the worker that makes 20 per hour and wants 22?
I have tried to make a simple point but some of you are on witch hunt to
hang me when I am only trying to help. I think both parties are guilty of
putting us in the position we are in and I am not trying to steer anybody red.
I never said big companies should run over the little guys but we are all in this
together and there has to be balance. We need to stop lashing out at one
another and demand more action from our leaders.

No, we understand you just fine. We've all heard these points a zillion and a half times.

We just don't agree with all of it. Parts, sure. But not all.

Yes, someone who makes 20 million and wants 22 million is one HELL of a lot greedier than I have ever been. His salary was stupidly excessive at 20 million. No one is worth that much, and nothing you ever say will convince me otherwise.:D There are much more important things a company could use that extra two million for, besides giving it away to someone who is already grossly overcompensated. Upgraded equipment, facilities, product improvement, or maybe even just bank it to help the company weather tough times, the list goes on and on. But no. No we have to give it to good ole' Bob, so he can buy a villa in the South of France where his fat nagging wife and her annoying pampered poodle can sit out on the veranda, sip Lafitte Rothschild Bordeaux, talk trash to the butler and watch the sunset. Then when the company does hit hard times, we'll just lay off a few hundred workers to make up the loss, then bitch when they end up on the unemployment dole.

Wow! What a fabulous way to do things!:rolleyes:

I don't understand why you can't see my point.

Not attacking you, Jack. There's nothing personal about any of this.
Just an exchange of viewpoints.

Cordially,
Dave

piece-itpete
11-06-2009, 08:09 AM
Is this class warfare?

Pete

merrylander
11-06-2009, 08:15 AM
You are assuming those robber barons have class?:rolleyes:

noonereal
11-06-2009, 08:18 AM
This is a subject that is very close to all of us. How or what would you do to "fix" the economy ?

Grumpy

Here ya go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yo3uxqwTxk0

BlueStreak
11-06-2009, 08:33 AM
Is this class warfare?

Pete

Could be? So what? Maybe it's time?

Dave

noonereal
11-06-2009, 09:35 AM
Could be? So what? Maybe it's time?

Dave

I'm in.

d-ray657
11-06-2009, 09:44 AM
Could be? So what? Maybe it's time?

Dave

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFipyKSC2U8&feature=related

Regards,

D-Ray

HatchetJack
11-06-2009, 10:50 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2vem1j3Z4g

piece-itpete
11-06-2009, 11:42 AM
You are assuming those robber barons have class?:rolleyes:

Lol!

I just can't shake the feeling that we (us all) are about to kill the golden goose.

Pete

hillbilly
11-06-2009, 11:51 AM
I enjoy this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2wchkvEUwg&feature=related

d-ray657
11-06-2009, 12:14 PM
I enjoy this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2wchkvEUwg&feature=related

Ya know, I never did like his schtick, but if he really goes along with the racist crap in the video, I would be ashamed to ever play one of his albums. Does his start his show with people telling N$x#* jokes. That video was too sickening to call satire. I was puking so bad, I think I missed the trailer at the end that said "This video was approved by the KKK"

Regards,

D-Ray

hillbilly
11-06-2009, 01:10 PM
Watching CNBC live right now and they are saying we need to increase immigration and give out automatic green cards.

Now how they figure that'll help?

They offering immigrants more, in this mess we're already in :mad:

noonereal
11-06-2009, 02:46 PM
Watching CNBC live right now and they are saying we need to increase immigration and give out automatic green cards.

Now how they figure that'll help?

They offering immigrants more, in this mess we're already in :mad:

Who exactly said, "we need to increase immigration and give out automatic green cards."

:cool:

Fast_Eddie
11-06-2009, 02:51 PM
Watching CNBC live right now and they are saying we need to increase immigration and give out automatic green cards.

Now how they figure that'll help?

They offering immigrants more, in this mess we're already in :mad:

Cheap labor. Good for business. According to some, anything thats good for business is good for all of us.

noonereal
11-06-2009, 03:05 PM
Cheap labor. Good for business. According to some, anything thats good for business is good for all of us.

I guess the ruling class does not want to pay minimum wage to it's servants.

Makes sense, they work very hard and need housekeepers, drivers, landscapers...
I love how things trickle down.

a great example of the wealthy creating jobs.

Grumpy
11-06-2009, 05:24 PM
I enjoy this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2wchkvEUwg&feature=related


How about this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI&feature=related :eek:

Charles
11-06-2009, 09:07 PM
How about this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI&feature=related :eek:

She forgot the free cigarettes.

On a more serious note, Obama never promised anything like she's talking about, did he? Talk about a total disconnect with reality.

Chas

Grumpy
11-07-2009, 04:51 AM
She forgot the free cigarettes.

On a more serious note, Obama never promised anything like she's talking about, did he? Talk about a total disconnect with reality.

Chas


You just described most of his voters..

d-ray657
11-07-2009, 05:49 AM
You just described most of his voters..

Of course some of us expected improved international standing, which we got; healthcare reform, which the GOP is doing everything they can to prevent; an economic stimulus plan that included repairs to the national infrastructure, which is underway; and a president who was not beholden to corporate America, which appears to be the case, but we still have a congress who is.

Now what did the Bush voters expect???

Regards,

D-Ray

noonereal
11-07-2009, 05:56 AM
You just described most of his voters..

Gotta disagree. Obama received the "educated suburban" vote.

just sayin'

BlueStreak
11-07-2009, 03:20 PM
You just described most of his voters..

Uh, there are some middle aged, working, or retired white males right here in this forum that might tell you otherwise.

BlueStreak
11-07-2009, 03:27 PM
I enjoy this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2wchkvEUwg&feature=related


So, did he actullay DO anything to help that town and it's people? Or did he just make a music video, then leave telling them to stop bitching and get off of their lazy asses on the way out?

Sorry, but back when I was a Republican, I loved this guy too. Went to several of his concerts, had a big time. But after I grew up, I realized that good ole' Bocephus is a phony mo**er fu**er riding his Daddys coat-tails just like the rest of them.:D

Have a Great Day!

Dave

noonereal
11-07-2009, 04:33 PM
I enjoy this one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2wchkvEUwg&feature=related

What stupidity.

:(






Why is the GOP so anti eduction/pro greed?:confused:

Grumpy
11-07-2009, 05:26 PM
Gotta disagree. Obama received the "educated suburban" vote.

just sayin'


He did but IMO he won due to the inner city which far outnumbers the suburbanite vote.

Grumpy
11-07-2009, 05:26 PM
Uh, there are some middle aged, working, or retired white males right here in this forum that might tell you otherwise.

I said most, not all.

noonereal
11-07-2009, 05:39 PM
He did but IMO he won due to the inner city which far outnumbers the suburbanite vote.

But that vote is always Dem. It is the suburban vote that generally decides elections.

Charles
11-07-2009, 07:23 PM
Of course some of us expected improved international standing, which we got; healthcare reform, which the GOP is doing everything they can to prevent; an economic stimulus plan that included repairs to the national infrastructure, which is underway; and a president who was not beholden to corporate America, which appears to be the case, but we still have a congress who is.

Now what did the Bush voters expect???

Regards,

D-Ray

It appears to me that he has insulted the Brits, the French, and now the Germans. Not to mention pulling the rug out from under our friends in the Balkans.

To his credit, he is addressing health care, but there may be better ways to skin this particular cat. I'll pin this one on the Congress's ass.

I have no problem with repairing the infrastructure, but I do have concerns about the stimulus packages. I realize that deficit spending is considered the proper response for for a recession, but it appears that deficit spending keeps rising, and recessions keep coming closer together. Perhaps Ludwig von Mises has a point on deficit spending.

And when I look at Cap and Trade, with all it's sponsors from the banks, Wall Street, and the likes of GE...it doesn't look as though he has completely thrown off the corporate shackles.

And as a Bush voter (less of two evils IMHO), what did I expect. Pretty much what I'm seeing.

Chas

elwood127
11-08-2009, 11:38 PM
To answer the original question, I would put a two year freeze on all congressional spending (with the exception of obvious needs), cop wages, unemployment and such. Eliminate income taxes for the same period. Breakup any company who's collapse could affect the global economy. Set term limits to two years and kill all the lawyers.

merrylander
11-09-2009, 07:04 AM
Well there were a couple of victories for common sense in the recent elections. Seems this anti tax group called TABOR tried referendums in Maine and Washington State to cap taxes (think California's Prop 13) and both were defeated. Left poor old Grover* Norquist gnashing his teeth. Apparently the voters decided their schools and infrastructure were more important.

* Just now realized how appropriate his name is though I like the one from Sesame Street better.

piece-itpete
11-09-2009, 07:59 AM
And as a Bush voter (less of two evils IMHO), what did I expect. Pretty much what I'm seeing.
Chas

Indeed.

Pete

d-ray657
11-09-2009, 08:44 AM
To answer the original question, I would put a two year freeze on all congressional spending (with the exception of obvious needs), cop wages, unemployment and such. Eliminate income taxes for the same period. Breakup any company who's collapse could affect the global economy. Set term limits to two years and kill all the lawyers.

People love to quote Shakespeare for the line "First, hill all of the lawyers." It takes on a completely different meeting in the context in which it was stated. His character was explaining what steps would be necessary to impose a tyrrany. Tyrrany is much more difficult in a government based on laws than one based on the will of the tyrant. Just a thought from a totally objective observer. ;)

Regards,

D-Ray

merrylander
11-09-2009, 10:22 AM
Nice cartoon in WashPost this AM.

Charles
11-09-2009, 11:05 PM
People love to quote Shakespeare for the line "First, hill all of the lawyers." It takes on a completely different meeting in the context in which it was stated. His character was explaining what steps would be necessary to impose a tyrrany. Tyrrany is much more difficult in a government based on laws than one based on the will of the tyrant. Just a thought from a totally objective observer. ;)

Regards,

D-Ray

Come on, yer just tryin' to paint a smiley face on yer profession. Like they say, it's the 99% of lawyers who give the other 1% a bad name.

You're just lucky you ain't a remodeling contractor. The percentages get WAY worse!!!!

Take care,

Chas

Charles
11-09-2009, 11:06 PM
Nice cartoon in WashPost this AM.

I like it!!!!!!
Chas

d-ray657
11-09-2009, 11:25 PM
Nice cartoon in WashPost this AM.

That cartoon was about the most bipartisan thing I've seen in weeks.

REgards,

D-Ray

d-ray657
11-09-2009, 11:29 PM
Come on, yer just tryin' to paint a smiley face on yer profession. Like they say, it's the 99% of lawyers who give the other 1% a bad name.

You're just lucky you ain't a remodeling contractor. The percentages get WAY worse!!!!

Take care,

Chas

If I don't who will?

Q: What is different when a car hits a snake than when a car hits a lawyer.

A: There are skidmarks before the car hits the snake.

Regards,

D-Ray

Charles
11-10-2009, 08:52 AM
If I don't who will?

Q: What is different when a car hits a snake than when a car hits a lawyer.

A: There are skidmarks before the car hits the snake.

Regards,

D-Ray

My all time favorite lawyer joke.

Q: What is the difference between a lawyer and a catfish?

A: One is a scum sucking bottom feeder and the other is a fish.

Present company excluded, of course.

Funny how people don't make jokes about remodeling contractors. I guess there's nothing at all that's funny about them!!!!

Chas

painter
11-08-2011, 12:24 PM
Quit sending money overseas, and make all the deadbeats here in the USA get jobs.:p


We employ Chinese within our states...

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/us-bridges-roads-built-chinese-firms-14594513?tab=9482930?ion=1206853&playlist=14594944

bhunter
11-09-2011, 06:16 PM
We employ Chinese within our states...

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/us-bridges-roads-built-chinese-firms-14594513?tab=9482930?ion=1206853&playlist=14594944

Where did you dig up this old thread? I thought it was new and was reading along wondering what was up until I noticed the date. One salient point, people's positions have not changed much over the two years.

BlueStreak
11-10-2011, 12:06 AM
Yep. Millions of unemployed Americans and the state governments would rather bring in workers from a communist country halfway around the world. That one clowns statement about having difficulty finding welders.......No, it's hard to find American welders who will do the work for crap wages.

Let's see.....Does this practice help save the taxpayer money? Ummmmm, well, seeing as how the American worker IS the American taxpayer, I would have to say NO.

See,

If said workers are not working, or working for crappy wages, they aren't contributing much to the public till, now are they? So, what is the ingenius answer? Why hire cheap foreign companies/workers so that NONE of the revenues stay here in the good ol' USA----and pay for it with our tax money.

The wealthy here in the US of A, constantly whine like bellyaching babies that their taxes are too high. Then, they support stupid government tricks like this in order to "Get costs in line and cut spending".

If they keep it up, eventually they will be the only people in the country who can pay any taxes.

The new slogan should be; "It's a closed loop, stupid." You refuse to pay me good money----I can't buy the stuff you sell. (Or help carry the tax burden.)

Dave

painter
11-10-2011, 07:18 AM
Where did you dig up this old thread? I thought it was new and was reading along wondering what was up until I noticed the date. One salient point, people's positions have not changed much over the two years.


Just a reminder bhunter. People have such short memories when it comes to "lets repair those bridges and roads."

While I am at it...another Dollar Store will be opening in our neighborhood! There are five within FOUR miles of my front door!!! :mad:
I've been in a few. They employ maybe three individuals on a week-end to man/woman the cash registers...and shelves are stocked by a call in (from what I was told). So how this is going to take down the unemployment line is beyond me.
Your tax dollar and mine at work????

bobabode
02-01-2012, 01:29 AM
This is a subject that is very close to all of us. How or what would you do to "fix" the economy ?

Grumpy

Bring back Glass Steagle as written and no more bailouts! It's throwing good money after bad. At least Roosevelt had something to work with, we won't if we keep covering the bets of the crazy gambling addicts of Wall Street. Let them fail, that's about all they are useful for. I would like to see those hustlers doing useful work for a change. The Hoover Dam is due for a mucking out for one.

My take on the chestnut that the stockbrokers jumped out windows in '29 is that they didn't jump, they were thrown out feet first by their bookies as a warning to the rest of their ilk.

I'm with Ozmoid, I've always contended that public servants should be drafted. Volunteers encouraged but never elected by those with the most cash to spend. To which they are beholden to for the rest of their careers. If these public servants didn't perform to some minimum standards they would be demoted ultimately to the modern equivalent of a salt mine for their malfeasance. The ones who did perform would receive time off for good behavior. So that they could get on with their lives and teach their sucessors. Call me a liberal Progressive or a progressive Liberal or what have you. I consider my self a socialist in the literal sense- I'm for society as a whole. Being a hard worker should gain to you more of what you want, not free reign over others.

d-ray657
02-01-2012, 07:57 AM
Bring back Glass Steagle as written and no more bailouts! It's throwing good money after bad. At least Roosevelt had something to work with, we won't if we keep covering the bets of the crazy gambling addicts of Wall Street. Let them fail, that's about all they are useful for. I would like to see those hustlers doing useful work for a change. The Hoover Dam is due for a mucking out for one.

My take on the chestnut that the stockbrokers jumped out windows in '29 is that they didn't jump, they were thrown out feet first by their bookies as a warning to the rest of their ilk.

I'm with Ozmoid, I've always contended that public servants should be drafted. Volunteers encouraged but never elected by those with the most cash to spend. To which they are beholden to for the rest of their careers. If these public servants didn't perform to some minimum standards they would be demoted ultimately to the modern equivalent of a salt mine for their malfeasance. The ones who did perform would receive time off for good behavior. So that they could get on with their lives and teach their sucessors. Call me a liberal Progressive or a progressive Liberal or what have you. I consider my self a socialist in the literal sense- I'm for society as a whole. Being a hard worker should gain to you more of what you want, not free reign over others.

Sad thing is the brain drain that Wall Street caused. They took some of the brightest in mathmatics and the sciences, directed their efforts toward beating an artificial system, rather than toward producing things of real value, but suffered real consequences when they screwed up.

Regards,

D-Ray

bhunter
02-01-2012, 01:46 PM
Sad thing is the brain drain that Wall Street caused. They took some of the brightest in mathmatics and the sciences, directed their efforts toward beating an artificial system, rather than toward producing things of real value, but suffered real consequences when they screwed up.

Regards,

D-Ray

You mean you don't see the joint stock company as a stabilizing economic force? What do you think is artificial about Wall Street? The sciences are also filled with the same type of ambitious folks as Wall Street. Perhaps, if government wasn't there artificially manipulating the market, market forces would be effective. If you have a better idea than the market, then, by all means, tell us. Wholesale condemnation of Wall Street without a viable alternative rings a trifle hollow IMHO. Fannie and Freddie alone ought demonstrate the folly of government involvement in markets, but, of course, the central planners will get it right the next time. It just needs a little more tinkering. Unfortunately, there is not one nation where that has been successful over the long term. The glory days of a pseudo-socialist Europe and the much ballyhooed ascendency of the European Union are long gone. The heralded China economy is overheated, but is fraught with nascent internal problems that will soon slow its influence.

No, free markets might not be ideal, but there just isn't anything else that reflects the inherent nature of self-interested human beings better while concomitantly nourishing liberty.

Bigerik
02-01-2012, 01:56 PM
Funny, I thought the market worked better when it was more regulated.

merrylander
02-01-2012, 03:17 PM
There were no bank failures in Canada, I wonder why that is. Reed the former CEO of Citi admitted that the model the bright boys of MIT wrote underestimated the risks. It made everything come up looking like roses so they made even more risky ventures like Derivatives, Tranches, Credit Default Swaps.

Freddi and Fanny were not the problem, the real problem is the moral hazard in the mortgage system. Broker finds a sucker (oops client) fabricates their income and gets a $300,000 mortgage takes $3000 and walks away. The lender takes $6000 and secutritizes the mortgage and walks away. It is a license to print money, and several major banks are in it up to their elbows. Fortunately the Attorney General of New York refused to go along with cozy little deal where the were going to grant the bankers immunity. Now we have the Justce Dept, FBI, SEC, Consumer Protection, etc. digging up the dirt and with luck some bankers are going to find their sorry arses in jail.

bobabode
02-01-2012, 04:08 PM
No, free markets might not be ideal, but there just isn't anything else that reflects the inherent nature of self-interested human beings better while concomitantly nourishing liberty.

I've heard that thought espoused and cited as the impetus for democracy. It was on a history channel show about buccaneers and pirates. Somehow they conflated the way a pirate crew chose their leaders by a vote, while ignoring that most of the leaders of the pirate movement got their letters of marque from the King or by murdering their competion. Hardly a business model to admire, don't you think?
Speaking for myself, I believe that is exactly the model we got from the so-called modernization of banking act. Gutting Glass Steagle in the quest for loot is why we're in the pickle we're in. It's piracy on a huge scale.
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch" (acronym-TANSTAAFL)
by Robert Anson Heinlein

merrylander
02-02-2012, 07:39 AM
No, free markets might not be ideal, but there just isn't anything else that reflects the inherent nature of self-interested human beings better while concomitantly nourishing liberty.

But the market was not free, it was rigged by the big financial institutions. You seem to get confused between ambition and greed at times.

BlueStreak
02-02-2012, 10:01 AM
Funny, I thought the market worked better when it was more regulated.

It did. It was more stabile. But, see there is more opportunity for profit making in volatility, more spikes and dives. So, who cares if a few hundred thousand people lose their jobs with each nosedive, they'll find another job during the next short lived spike. And, in the meanwhile, the Gordon Gekkos and Mitt Romneys of this world cash in. So, it's all good.

Right?

Dave

BlueStreak
02-02-2012, 10:08 AM
No, free markets might not be ideal, but there just isn't anything else that reflects the inherent nature of self-interested human beings better while concomitantly nourishing liberty.

Nourishing liberty? There's "liberty" to be found in unemployment? You're somehow more free if you're changing jobs every couple of years whether you like it or not?

Oh, you're talking about the "liberty" enjoyed by the heads of the business world. (But, not so much the proles.) Oh, okay, I see.

Dave

piece-itpete
02-02-2012, 11:51 AM
A free market in the US is a ghost, it doesn't exist.

Therefore any failures are the result of flawed regulation, therefore it is indeed the governments' fault :p

Pete

bobabode
02-02-2012, 01:20 PM
A free market in the US is a ghost, it doesn't exist.

Therefore any failures are the result of flawed regulation, therefore it is indeed the governments' fault :p

Pete

Boooooo:p
Is you is or is you ain't, my constituents? ;)
(Brother,Where Art Thou)

We have seen the enemy and he is us!-
(Pogo)

I've got a couple more pithy pronouncements in my hip pocket but I'se savin' 'em fora rainy day.:D

piece-itpete
02-03-2012, 09:56 AM
LOL!

Pete

bobabode
02-03-2012, 07:57 PM
LOL!

Pete

:DI thought those would get a chuckle!