Climate Change Will Force Millions To Migrate

[icenine]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/migrant-crisis-climate-change_55e9ed2de4b03784e275d514


Assad, ISIS, and general political instability are seen as causes but climate change is and will be a major push factor. Good article.

[HarmanKardon]

Currently it's the ISIS. After the Hungarian Government has humiliated thousands and thousands of refugees on the Budapest Railway Station because Super asshole Orban insisted on the rules of registration, they finally could travel to Munich. The human conditions were bad on that Railway Station and elsewhere in Hungary - Hungary actually fucked up.

So yesterday thousands of refugees arrived on the Railway Station of Munich, there was a little corridor of Germans, they APPLAUDED to the refugees. Instant medical care for everybody was first, and after that supply with food and clothes.

[Dondilion]

Currently it's the ISIS. After the Hungarian Government has humiliated thousands and thousands of refugees on the Budapest Railway Station because Super asshole Orban insisted on the rules of registration, they finally could travel to Munich. The human conditions were bad on that Railway Station and elsewhere in Hungary - Hungary actually fucked up.

So yesterday thousands of refugees arrived on the Railway Station of Munich, there was a little corridor of Germans, they APPLAUDED to the refugees. Instant medical care for everybody was first, and after that supply with food and clothes.

Yeah Hungary bombed and invaded the Middle East. By deterring immigrants/refugees who are essentially from Muslim countries Hungary is doing Europe a great favor.

[HarmanKardon]

A poor poor poor comment, Sir, and you know that.

[HarmanKardon]

Here is a picture of the three years old Aylan, drowned on the Turkish beach. Maybe this picture get you the idea, that this thread is not the place for cheesy jokes, Dondillon.

[HarmanKardon]

Yeah Hungary bombed and invaded the Middle East. By deterring immigrants/refugees who are essentially from Muslim countries Hungary is doing Europe a great favor.

Maybe one day I will understand what the fuck you are talking about. Are you a trump-ish BUILD-UP-A-WALL aficionado?

[donquixote99]

Few feelings are stronger in most people than the desire to care for and protect little children. The stark image of the young boy on the beach is going to be historic in it's impact, joining a small handful of news pictures that remain in our minds, and change the course of nations.

[Dondilion]

Manipulation of emotions is a weak answer to the stark reality of dangers to Europe posed by the transfer of Muslims, especially those from the Middle East conflict zones.

[Oerets]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/migrant-crisis-climate-change_55e9ed2de4b03784e275d514


Assad, ISIS, and general political instability are seen as causes but climate change is and will be a major push factor. Good article.


What shortsightedness humans are in it is shown over and over!


https://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KLqIIWQ.xVSXAA2QMsnIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTBzZn Ztb2xyBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQDBGdwb3MDMTM-?p=Matthew+Cooke&vid=4138a10855fd4ce65160a4c4246b3a97&turl=http%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DWN. N7YtLjyeM2AmIgE7q8kGPg%26pid%3D15.1%26h%3D168%26w% 3D300%26c%3D7%26rs%3D1&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D8 fPZqznAGXY&tit=Survivors+Guide+to+Earth%3A+Welcome!&c=12&h=168&w=300&l=64&sigr=11bdr5r9s&sigt=11287918c&sigi=12llk6tij&age=1434528970&fr2=p%3As%2Cv%3Av&fr=yhs-mozilla-001&hsimp=yhs-001&hspart=mozilla&tt=b




Barney

[donquixote99]

Manipulation of emotions is a weak answer to the stark reality of dangers to Europe posed by the transfer of Muslims, especially those from the Middle East conflict zones.

All values are based on emotions.

Fear of 'stark dangers' is an emotion.

We choose.

[Dondilion]

Climate change and the Syrian conflict: It is believed that the transfer to urban centers in Syria of large numbers of young men, who were driven out of northern Syria by the 3 year drought (2007-2010) contributed to the Syrian conflict.

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/food-matters/political-climates-drought-and-conflict-in-syria/

[Tom Joad]

We're long overdue for a major thinning of the herd.

We may have been able to sustain a world population of 2-3 billion like it was when I was born, IF we had really worked on living in a sustainable way. But we had already let that horse out of the barn long before. Then, on top of it we proceeded to breed like rabbits so that there are now 7.3 billion of us motherfuckers.

So the way I see it we're pretty much fucked no matter what we do from now on.

Most of the time, I try not to think about this because it's depressing as Hell.

[Boreas]

Actually, with equitable distribution of resources, the world can sustain a much larger population than we currently have. The trouble comes in trying to achieve that equitable distribution. The "haves" don't like sharing and the "commodifiers" will try to corner the market on everything and then sell it to those who can afford to pay.

Of course, global warming is a game changer because it may make even current population levels unsustainable. Also, it will make (has made) "commodities" like food and water scarcer and lore costly. This, in turn, makes the capitalists all the more eager to control access to them.

It's going to get very, very bad.

[HarmanKardon]

Manipulation of emotions is a weak answer to the stark reality of dangers to Europe posed by the transfer of Muslims, especially those from the Middle East conflict zones.

First of all, Dondillon, these refugees are people like you and me. Your anti Islam agitation is pretty tiring. I cannot understand what's got into you.

However, what this human race need is a reduce of brainless blabla by politicians and other authorities, and and increase of empathy in order to make possible a future for our human race.

Germany will accept tenthousands of civil war refugees (no refugees by economical reasons). And that is good. In the next years much more qualified labourer will retire than young qualified labourer will succeed in these jobs. If Germany wants to hold it's high prosperity it needs young immigrants. By the way - there are a lot of qualified people amongst the refugees, doctors etc...

[donquixote99]

First of all, Dondilion, these refugees are people like you and me. Your anti Islam agitation is pretty tiring. I cannot understand what's got into you.

However, what this human race need is a reduce of brainless blabla by politicians and other authorities, and and increase of empathy in order to make possible a future for our human race.

Germany will accept tenthousands of civil war refugees (no refugees by economical reasons). And that is good. In the next years much more qualified labourer will retire than young qualified labourer will succeed in these jobs. If Germany wants to hold it's high prosperity it needs young immigrants. By the way - there are a lot of qualified people amongst the refugees, doctors etc...

It's emotional, as much as the empathy he dismisses. To be clear, most anyone, including myself, 'fears' or 'hates' threatening enemies, and most anyone, including I'm sure Dondilion, feels sad empathy for a poor drowned boy. The difference is which of these emotions do we choose to feed, which one is stronger in us, which one is decisive.

And it's important to keep in mind that there are other courses between total war, and defenseless charity. One can have some of each sort of thing. One should, I would say.

[Boreas]

Few feelings are stronger in most people than the desire to care for and protect little children. The stark image of the young boy on the beach is going to be historic in it's impact, joining a small handful of news pictures that remain in our minds, and change the course of nations.

I would hope so.

But I can't help wondering how many dead 3 year old Mexican children litter the desert in the American Southwest. Where are their pictures?

[Tom Joad]

Actually, with equitable distribution of resources, the world can sustain a much larger population than we currently have. The trouble comes in trying to achieve that equitable distribution. The "haves" don't like sharing and the "commodifiers" will try to corner the market on everything and then sell it to those who can afford to pay.

An "equitable distribution" at 7.3 Billion human beings plus won't leave anything for the other species that live on our planet. Our oceans are well along a trajectory toward death right now. That's 2/3 of our planets biosphere. Once they are gone we'll be gone too.

[Boreas]

An "equitable distribution" at 7.3 Billion human beings plus won't leave anything for the other species that live on our planet. Our oceans are well along a trajectory toward death right now. That's 2/3 of our planets biosphere. Once they are gone we'll be gone too.

So? We'll just eat them.:D

I agree that the trajectory is bad, actually catastrophic, but it's a trajectory, not an inevitability. We can halt it, perhaps even reverse it. Whether we will is another matter and I'm not too optimistic. It would require an entirely new paradigm (or, failing that, a very ancient one) for human society and I suspect that the requisite will for the new model isn't there and probably won't be until it's too late, leaving us the ancient model as out only option.

[Oerets]

Let do some formulating,

For the positive, some of many.

Ever improvements in science and medicine, thus lowering infant death rates and increasing life spans. The use of HiVAC to increase our comforts and live in areas of extremes. The ability to reroute water allowing crops and humans to survive in deserts.
Able to increase food production to unimagined levels.
Replacing ever increasingly human tasks of the past with machines.

Some of the negatives for the unsustainable lifestyle we have now,

Increasing CO2 sea level and temps.
Mass extinctions of other life forms.
Drastic swings in weather patterns and norms.
Pollution.
Clear cutting forests.
Stripping the oceans of it bounty in factory fishing fleets.

Just the rise in sea level in a country like Bangladesh in the next 100 years alone will displace many millions. Then add the projected population growth.:eek: Some dark days ahead for mankind.


On ISIS, just why I ask, from the outside looking in. just fix the neighborhood so they will stay back home? The money being spent now could be used to rebuild an area for a start and get them to fight their own fight. Secure and area with broad support from the local countries and other like the US and Europe. Build a fighting force of those effected to retake and hold their homes.

Sorry but I learned a long time ago, you have to fight your own fights if you want results. Letting others is the way of the weak. Sending them home by force? The problem has gotten beyond that now. The powers that be have allowed this to grow because of inaction. Waiting for others to jump in.

My solution would be to create a safe area in Syria and westernize modernize the populace. Get the young behind our ""spoiled decadent"" open society. Have the populace see a future safe and secure with an vibrant economy. But this will cost many billions and years of commitments, thru many governments. So will not happen, continue putting out fires here and there, plugging leaks as they appear. The cheap quick and easy approach, the news cycle is ever changing to the next headline to distract.









Barney

[Dondilion]

First of all, Dondillon, these refugees are people like you and me. Your anti Islam agitation is pretty tiring. I cannot understand what's got into you.

However, what this human race need is a reduce of brainless blabla by politicians and other authorities, and and increase of empathy in order to make possible a future for our human race.

Germany will accept tenthousands of civil war refugees (no refugees by economical reasons). And that is good. In the next years much more qualified labourer will retire than young qualified labourer will succeed in these jobs. If Germany wants to hold it's high prosperity it needs young immigrants. By the way - there are a lot of qualified people amongst the refugees, doctors etc...

Again you are pure emotion and lack common sense.

[bobabode]

Again you are pure emotion and lack common sense.

That last paragraph was well reasoned and dispassionate as far as I can see. :confused:

[bobabode]

Germany will accept tenthousands of civil war refugees (no refugees by economical reasons). And that is good. In the next years much more qualified labourer will retire than young qualified labourer will succeed in these jobs. If Germany wants to hold it's high prosperity it needs young immigrants. By the way - there are a lot of qualified people amongst the refugees, doctors etc...

Watching those regular German citizens lining up to celebrate those new refugees was a heartwarming and uplifting experience, Chris. :)

[Dondilion]

US will accept some but after severe vetting. :D

[bobabode]

US will accept some but after severe vetting. :D

I should hope so. ;)

[Oerets]

Granted humanitarian actions need to be taken and seem to be increasing. But if all that is done is move the people somewhere else without addressing the underlining causes. Will only increase the problems as a result.

The chance of the refugees feeling out of place, language customs weather food freedoms all being different. Will increase tensions until a growth in nationalistic patriotic or religious movements cause unrest.

There is no easy way to get to the bottom of this. But fixing the root causes in the Middle East would go a long way.


Barney

[bobabode]

Granted humanitarian actions need to be taken and seem to be increasing. But if all that is done is move the people somewhere else without addressing the underlining causes. Will only increase the problems as a result.

The chance of the refugees feeling out of place, language customs weather food freedoms all being different. Will increase tensions until a growth in nationalistic patriotic or religious movements cause unrest.

There is no easy way to get to the bottom of this. But fixing the root causes in the Middle East would go a long way.


Barney

Agreed, we've tried 'Shock and Awe' before and look where that led us.

Fun fact. The USA is financing those huge refugee tent cities in Jordan under the auspices of the UN. ;)

[Oerets]

Agreed, we've tried 'Shock and Awe' before and look where that led us.

Fun fact. The USA is financing those huge refugee tent cities in Jordan under the auspices of the UN. ;)

So far "Nation Building" has no lasting foundations being built!



Barney

[bobabode]

So far "Nation Building" has no lasting foundations being built!



Barney

Check out this neocon sumbitch Fred Hiatt at the Wash Poo.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/obamas-syria-achievement/2015/09/06/961b416a-50de-11e5-8c19-0b6825aa4a3a_story.html

[HarmanKardon]

Just one more thing.

My mother is a refugee. In January 1945 she escaped to Denmark, threatened being raped and killed by Soviet soldiers. She was on the "Wilhelm Gustloff", the ship with some 6000 refugees on board. The ship sunk and she almost drowned. She was 16 years old back then. I am glad that she had arrived at last in Denmark and survived.

[Oerets]

Check out this neocon sumbitch Fred Hiatt at the Wash Poo.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/obamas-syria-achievement/2015/09/06/961b416a-50de-11e5-8c19-0b6825aa4a3a_story.html

Dammed if he do dammed if he don't......

With the do nothing if a Dem may be credited with a victory GOP (TP and or racists in there too) fighting every move what is to be expected.



Barney

[HarmanKardon]

Last weekend our small region "Südbaden" in Southern Germany picked up 1300 refugees. Every European country without exception should be ready to help refugees to survive. First aid in an emergency situation, no matter what may happen next. Refugees are no vermins, they are human beings like you and me. No difference.

[Oerets]

Last weekend our small region "Südbaden" in Southern Germany picked up 1300 refugees. Every European country without exception should be ready to help refugees to survive. First aid in an emergency situation, no matter what may happen next. Refugees are no vermins, they are human beings like you and me. No difference.


Agreed my friend! But what will happen next week, month year? They will not disappear or go away.

A solution long term needs to be decided, and soon!


Barney

[bobabode]

Just one more thing.

My mother is a refugee. In January 1945 she escaped to Denmark, threatened being raped and killed by Soviet soldiers. She was on the "Wilhelm Gustloff", the ship with some 6000 refugees on board. The ship sunk and she almost drowned. She was 16 years old back then. I am glad that she had arrived at last in Denmark and survived.

Wow, Chris. I've heard of that one. She was clearly marked as a hospital/refugee ship IIRC and a Russian submarine sunk the Gustloff.

Ahhh, here's the Wiki page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Wilhelm_Gustloff

[HarmanKardon]

Agreed my friend! But what will happen next week, month year? They will not disappear or go away.

A solution long term needs to be decided, and soon!


Barney

Germany is capable of integrating many of them into their society. We have something that is called "Integrationsprogramm", which means that we are not as helpless with this situation than other countries.

But one day even our capacities will be exhausted, and also the acceptance of the public.

[Oerets]

Germany is capable of integrating many of them into their society. We have something that is called "Integrationsprogramm", which means that we are not as helpless with this situation than other countries.

But one day even our capacities will be exhausted, and also the acceptance of the public.

That may be true for now and in the foreseeable future. But plain and simple if they never needed to leave home......


Fix it local is all I'm saying.....



Barney

[HarmanKardon]

Fix it local is all I'm saying.....



Barney


The only way to solve the problem, right. But how to do so? No politician, nobody has an idea.

[Dondilion]

On this issue Orban is the most sober leader in Europe. I guess probably because his country Hungary was once ruled my Muslims.

Germany taken thousands of Muslims from conflict zones is dumb, dumb, dumb.

[4-2-7]

Agreed my friend! But what will happen next week, month year? They will not disappear or go away.

A solution long term needs to be decided, and soon!


Barney

They would have never needed to go anywhere if Obama didn't cut and run out of Iraq and Afghanistan and not hold his red line with Syria.

The mans failed policies is what we have today. Obama's Vacuum.

[Boreas]

On this issue Orban is the most sober leader in Europe. I guess probably because his country Hungary was once ruled my Muslims.

Germany taken thousands of Muslims from conflict zones is dumb, dumb, dumb.

Really? It seems your friend Orban thinks otherwise. He thinks the refugees in his country are Germany's problem. Why? Because he claims that they all want to go to Germany. Nobody wants to go to Hungary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5BBQ-ku0bc

[icenine]

On this issue Orban is the most sober leader in Europe. I guess probably because his country Hungary was once ruled my Muslims.

Germany taken thousands of Muslims from conflict zones is dumb, dumb, dumb.

Those human beings facing an existential threat. What would you do if you felt your children were going to be killed by either ISIS or Assad? If your country was destroyed and you had no where else to go but out?

You are starting to become ignore list material with such posts.

[HarmanKardon]

On this issue Orban is the most sober leader in Europe. I guess probably because his country Hungary was once ruled my Muslims.

Germany taken thousands of Muslims from conflict zones is dumb, dumb, dumb.

Orban is a lousy sick coward, and there a bunch of more cowardly nations in Europe.

We have taken 14000 EVIL EVIL EVIL Muslims last week and we will take more EVIL EVIL EVIL Muslims. The Government of Germany just decided to provide 6 billion euros in 2016 in order to support EVIL EVIL EVIL Muslims next year.

Dondillon you almost make me puke.

[Dondilion]

Really? It seems your friend Orban thinks otherwise. He thinks the refugees in his country are Germany's problem. Why? Because he claims that they all want to go to Germany. Nobody wants to go to Hungary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5BBQ-ku0bc
Orban is not my friend, but at least he has the vision of the multiplier effect of easy entrance into Europe of people from Jihadist centers.

[Dondilion]

You are starting to become ignore list material with such posts.


Yeah you want to limit thought and expression.

[catswiththum]

Orban/Hungary are moving closer to an alliance with Russia and away from their NATO commitments. Orban has sealed several energy contracts with Russia/Putin recently and is a frequent visitor to Moscow.

Putin is increasing armed support for Assad in Syria and it is reported that Russian "advisors" are now fighting alongside Syrian troops.

Orban is going to take a hard line on the the Syrian refugees fleeing Assad, as he does not want to upset his Russian friends.

We still have some leverage, as Orban borrows buckets of money from the west.

[Dondilion]

Orban/Hungary are moving closer to an alliance with Russia and away from their NATO commitments. Orban has sealed several energy contracts with Russia/Putin recently and is a frequent visitor to Moscow.

Putin is increasing armed support for Assad in Syria and it is reported that Russian "advisors" are now fighting alongside Syrian troops.

Orban is going to take a hard line on the the Syrian refugees fleeing Assad, as he does not want to upset his Russian friends.

We still have some leverage, as Orban borrows buckets of money from the west.

How does Muslim refugees fleeing to Europe upsets Russia? :confused:

[catswiththum]

How does Muslim refugees fleeing to Western Europe upsets Russia? :confused:



Orban is not going to take an overt/public stand against Russia for aiding Assad in creating the refugee crisis or display too much sympathy for the refugees themselves - he is moving to a new camp.

[Dondilion]

Orban is not going to take an overt/public stand against Russia for aiding Assad in creating the refugee crisis or display too much sympathy for the refugees themselves - he is moving to a new camp.

Orban is essentially anti Muslim, he does not need any camp.

[catswiththum]

And Putin will be laughing all the way to the bank. He has no interest in financing Hungary, the Russian economy is stagnating.

He will make "cooperation agreements" with Hungary and foster closer cultural ties.

He will scold Hungary for borrowing money from the west, but will not "forbid" it - he is very happy to let Hungary pay for the cheap energy and new arms with western capital.

He will ask for something in return for Orban's continued "disturbing" relationship with the west - information on NATO intentions, greater Russian/Hungarian intelligence cooperation, etc.

[catswiththum]

Orban is essentially anti Muslim, he does not need any camp.

Well, read the news - he is moving toward a Russian Alliance - that's the way it is.

[Dondilion]

Well, read the news - he is moving toward a Russian Alliance - that's the way it is.

Therefore he would be eager to let the Muslim hordes destabilize Europe to please the Russians given the state of Europe Russian relation. :D

[donquixote99]

Yeah you want to limit thought and expression.

What, does he call for you to be banned from posting? No, he just finds your position so horrible, he wants to not look at it again. Isn't that his right? Or do you want the reading of your posts to be mandatory?

You consider yourself logical and others emotional? How is calling someone "dumb dumb dumb" not an emotional argument?

[Dondilion]

What, does he call for you to be banned from posting? No, he just finds your position so horrible, he wants to not look at it again. Isn't that his right? Or do you want the reading of your posts to be mandatory?

You consider yourself logical and others emotional? How is calling someone "dumb dumb dumb" not an emotional argument?

"dumb dumb dumb" referring to German leadership is a logical conclusion, not an emotional one.

[Pio1980]

So, your contention is that, because a few jihadists MAY have infiltrated the refugees, they should all be excluded as pariahs?

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[Oerets]

They would have never needed to go anywhere if Obama didn't cut and run out of Iraq and Afghanistan and not hold his red line with Syria.

The mans failed policies is what we have today. Obama's Vacuum.

Go back to the last severely flawed administration to squarely place ALL the blame. Believe and say what you want but Saddam held in check the area. We would of been better served if old practices of replacing generals had happened.


As an example of the way I look at things, seen a bumper sticker yesterday.

It went something like this...

Clinton lied four died!

To this,

I say Bush lied and many thousands died!


All this President is attempting is to let the locals figure it out. The results are what they are. A serious look needs to bring that part of the world into the fold of modern society. Not the old still practiced rob the riches and leave the locals wanting a holdover from colonial days.




Barney

[donquixote99]

"dumb dumb dumb" referring to German leadership is a logical conclusion, not an emotional one.

"I see a flaw in their decision-making" might be a logical conclusion. "Dumb dumb dumb" is emotion-based argument by insult.

And understand I view emotion as unavoidable. Human thinking is unimaginable without it, and it's the source of all values, if you drill down. I just argue with the claim 'You're emotional, I'm logical." This is generally not true.

It's likely what you mean is 'I have logic that contradicts your emotion." That's legitimate when true, but it's generally a lot less true than people think. We rationalize like nuts.

[Boreas]

Orban is essentially anti Muslim, he does not need any camp.

And there you have it. Orban is indeed anti-Muslim, driven by hatred for them because the Ottoman Empire ran Hungary for a couple hundred years. He even said so.

[Boreas]

"dumb dumb dumb" referring to German leadership is a logical conclusion, not an emotional one.

You don't suppose the Rothschilds are behind this, do you? After all, they're behind everything, right? So, it would be "logical" to suppose this was another of their sinister plots, right?

http://politicalchat.org/showpost.php?p=281575&postcount=19
http://politicalchat.org/showpost.php?p=264174&postcount=46

[Boreas]

So, your contention is that, because a few jihadists MAY have infiltrated the refugees, they should all be excluded as pariahs?

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

No, Steve, his point (and Orban's point) is that, by definition, all Muslims are pariahs.

[Boreas]

Go back to the last severely flawed administration to squarely place ALL the blame. Believe and say what you want but Saddam held in check the area. We would of been better served if old practices of replacing generals had happened.


As an example of the way I look at things, seen a bumper sticker yesterday.

It went something like this...

Clinton lied four died!

To this,

I say Bush lied and many thousands died!


All this President is attempting is to let the locals figure it out. The results are what they are. A serious look needs to bring that part of the world into the fold of modern society. Not the old still practiced rob the riches and leave the locals wanting a holdover from colonial days.




Barney

If you consider the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who have died and the millions displaced, "many thousands" is an obscenely trivial term.

[Oerets]

If you consider the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who have died and the millions displaced, "many thousands" is an obscenely trivial term.



I agree totally, but when considering those who still think we were justified. I firmly believe they never think or consider the many many more thousands you now mentioned.

Also if I had mentioned the true figure, in the millions. The arguments to the contrary would of clouded the discussion.



Barney