The Truth about the Big D...........
 

"Scorched Earth";

Whatever a tyrant can't control, he destroys.

Not just Flint, but Detroit and the rest of the Rust Belt was deliberately abandoned to show the American people who's boss and that the bosses HATE Democracy. Democracy, to my mind, is the very heart of freedom itself. Just as some may argue that the unions went too far, I would argue that those who dogmatically oppose them can also go too far. And, in fact history proves that they have and most likely will again. The long view presents a much different picture than the short-sighted one painted by those who oppose empowered labor, my friend.............

In advance to some of you who will hate the point of this thread;

Up Yours......;)

Dave

While labor unions serve a vital purpose, there is no denying that Detroit auto workers misbehaved to a level that turned public opinion against them. To regain public trust, IMO, they will have to go beyond economic bargaining and enter the realm of earnest craftsmanship and mentoring. As far as I know the skilled trades always did that. It was the line workers that gave the unions a black eye. At least that is my perception.

People have short memories Walter Reuther, head of the UAW was a brilliant man and a good citizen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Reuther


And to demonstrate the hysteria infecting the witch hunt at GM we were just issued recalls for the ignition switches on our fourteen year old Impala LSs. You know if you don't hang everything but the kitchen sink on the key chain you won't have problems.

I can agree with both of the above posts.

Dave

A sign that your argument is weak.

Detroit was INTENTIONALLY destroyed?

Pete

Please Pete use his exact word "DELIBERATELY".

And not only Detroit but the rust belt.

Ah so kemosabe. 'DELIBERATELY'.

Sorry but isn't that a little tin-foil-hattish?

Pete

When one enters into a contract with a paymaster, the primary responsibility of the payee is to ensure that the paymaster remains solvent. Otherwise in the end, the contract however lucrative is useless.

When Detroit was building gas guzzling land yachts it was not the union that designed them.

Tin Foil hat? Not at all. Remember, many in my family worked in the automotive industry as I was growing up, both in management as well as hourly. I worked for 12 years at Federal-Mogul.

I'm not saying that auto executives just had a twisted determination to screw the city of Detroit, that's ridiculous. But, it's a fact that the industry had/has a hard-on for the UAW. Always has. I'm saying Detroit just happened to be where the U.S. auto industry was centered as the industry declined, the latter dragging down the former. Trust me, it's not just Detroit, many communities across the country have been adversely affected.

Some years ago, I'm thinking late 1980s-1990s my brother John, an engineer who at the time worked at General Motors/ Packard Electric Division, told me: "Something's wrong. Now, when we go into contract negotiations with the unions, upper management pretty much just gives them whatever they want. You don't do that unless you don't care anymore................"

I think he was onto something. In fact, it didn't take much at all to see that as they gave away the farm, they shipped more work out of the country. 'Sure, we can do that! Whatever you want, Bud!!'-------Because in a few years you won't be working for us anymore, anyways.

Timing is everything.

Get it?

Think outside of the box, Fellas. I'm thinking that's where the truth lies.

Dave

If they were allowed to outsource they sure weren't giving the union whatever they wanted Dave :/

Areas have an economic life cycle regardless of how bad or good their leaders are, not saying the leaders have no control at all. Probably easier to screw things up worse though.

Pete

The truth is simple...American consumers had more choices.

Pete, Pete, Pete..............

Why would they so easily agree to things as ridiculous as the "Jobs Bank", unless they knew it didn't matter? So long as a given plant exists they have to pay temporarily laid off workers 90% of their pay for up to two years? That sounds like something a sarcastic bastard would do just before he shuts the plant down........... Really.

Trust me, the industry has a venomous hatred for the UAW. One of my uncles had some sort of kiss ass middle management job at the Lordstown plant until he retired. Those guys despise the union.

It would be a revelation to you to realize that large corporations plan and execute long term strategies?

Dave

So what? That doesn't have a fucking thing to do with it. As Rob pointed out, assembly line people don't design cars.

Love,
Dave

I never said they loved each other....

Why do they make anything at all here then?

Pete

Beats me. Maybe because it keeps the bailout billions flowing?

Dave

Besides, I thought the reason manufacturing jobs were leaving was because of the federal corporate tax? If that were true, then it would be nationwide and not just certain parts of the country, now wouldn't it?

I smell a grudge f**k. I'm thinking somebody got mad because the little people got too "uppity".

Dave

Design of cars was just a part of the package, once the Japanese had access to the American market it became a new game.

Okay. Everyone is to blame but management. They are always the hapless victim of fate. Got it.:rolleyes:

Dave

That is not the thrust of your post.

The thrust is: Big Boss deliberately abandon Detroit and the Rust Belt to
show the rest of us who is boss.

My argument is: Detroit and the Rust belt occurred essentially because there
was a new kid on the block...the Japanese.

One can bitch that Big Boss was not sufficiently adroit in its response to the new environment. However your original charge is pure foam.

My sentiments exactly.

Datsun rolling out the 240Z caught the US mfgrs flat - footed.

Their feet were bolted down. They stayed flat-footed for 15-20 years there.

I remember hearing, "We got nothin' to worry about, we make the best damn cars in the world." Long after everyone outside the GM bubble knew better.

Dave

Ford Pinto, Chevy Vega and Chrysler Omni/Horizon. ;)

The thing is the Japanese government helped the likes of Toyota Nissan (Datsun) etc and slapped a big fat tarriff on any cars entering Japan while theirs came in here damn near free.

Sure the big three did put out some lousy cars but the playing field was anything but level.

If you knew the amount of claims trading going on with the Detroit Chapter 9 bankruptcy case, you'd be more sanguine about the future of the city.

No kidding. Their arrogance was breathtaking.

Pete

I'm sanguine about it despite my ignorance of the details and specifics. I'm sanguine because it's a case where the assumption of failure has become self perpetuating. Very few businesses will even consider Detroit and people will only move TO Detroit if they absolutely HAVE to, based on negative reputation alone.

That sort of thing is extremely difficult to overcome.

Dave

If Detroit was a white neighborhood, they would have been bailed out along with the banks.

Who's been running the D. I've been saying for years "Why do they keep voting those fucking dems in"? Of course we know that's because they are all goose stepping union jack offs. I'm union, will retire in one year two months, and have never voted dem. Not that I would
n't have if they had ran a candidate I trusted and agreed with. My lawn, 2 acres across from the golf course, is lined with Republican signs. That after many threats from the union. Do you know we still have a goon squad. Maybe it's my policy of a loaded high caliber in every room of the house, or the 3 my wife packs everyday, but I think because of my "guns" and shoot first rep., nobody fucks with my signs. Run Ben Run!

Hey let me say I have always been a champion of Detroit. I give them credit for us being victorious in WWII. I also thinks is one of the saddest things happening right now in our country. You know it's fucking priorities, CA is doing fine all the sudden. Wasn't it just a couple years ago that they were toast? I'd feel jubilant if they took every tax dollar I ever paid in and used it to "fix" Detroit. Don't blame it on the gangs and blacks either. Until you've been shoved out of a womb into that situation, you don't need to comment. I feel Detroit will come back, and if takes WWIII, bring it.

Well if we would level the damn playing field and tariff Asian imports the way they do our exports it would be a different story. All I ever see is people bad mouthing American cars yet Florence and I are still driving a pair of year 2000 Chev Impala LSs. The people at the garage were we have them serviced say they want first dibs if we ever decide to sell.

I see the commercials for Toyota, Mazda and Honda on TV and I have never seem such butt ugly cars in my life. And Nissan is not a hell of a lot better.

Oh and please don't tell me they are made here, assembled here in 'right to starve' states is more accurate.

Couldn't agree more. My wife's last three were various forms of the Envoy and 200k was getting good an d broke in. I think we got that Jap cars are better rap, in late 70s early 80 when we had to start building fuel efficient tiny cars to compete, and the Japs had been doing it for years and years, There as a curve, but we've definitely caught and passed them. I believe it was Honda who thought an interference engine with a timing "belt" was a good deal. That has to be in the top ten worst engineering feats. Unless they wanted to sell you a new motor every 100k, because that's about how long the belt lasted. Seemed they always give it up at highway speed too, which would insure at least bent valves.:D

WWIII would likely take Detroit and other urban centers to radioactive rubble, with untold millions broiled, blasted to dust--or done in about 1/3 by such effects and left to die a slow death.

I don't think it's a good economic recovery plan.

Still drivin' a Fix Or Repair Daily, though I downsized to six banger Ranger from the F250 5.8L Super Duty Gasshole. It's nice not having two tanks to fill up every damn week.

In the last 3 decades I have owned mostly domestic rigs. My 89 Camaro died at 140K. My 93 Grand Prix lasted to about 140K. My 99 Grand Am got a new tranny at 130K. My 04 Dakota was just about finished with its second tranny at 130K. My first import, a 93 Protege that I bought at 140K went to 240K with no issues. My wifes 09 Corolla went 100K with no issues bu a water pump. I now have a '15 Tacoma, and a '15 Corolla and won't apologize to Detroit. Hell, the '13 Road Glide probably has more oriental parts on it than domestic.

Just about every manufacturer has some interference designs. I suppose it's the price you pay to maximize the compression ratio for highest efficiency/performance.

http://www.agcoauto.com/content/List...erence_Engines

That's why they recommend changing the belt every 60,000 miles.