Chicago Teachers Strike

[d-ray657]

Originally Posted by wgrr

I am not picking on you Pete, but I am tired of a bunch of people making judgements on teacher pay and salaries that have no degree or experience in education. Any teacher that makes $76,000 a year has a minimum of a Masters, if not a PhD, in education, and at least fifteen years experience in the classroom.

Most teachers work on their education during their "vacation" to better their teaching skills and receive higher pay. Many work through the Summer working on lesson plans, and preparing their classroom for the Fall semester. This is all done at their expense and time.

The myth that teachers go to work at 8:00 and get off at 3:00 is just that; a myth. Do you think papers grade themselves? What about an English teacher that has to read and grade a few hundred essays turned in every other day. How about the algebra, geometry, Trig, and calculus teacher that has to grade hundreds of tests and quizzes given through the semester. That is usually done at home and not compensated with pay.

The problem in Chicago is not pay. It is the fact that teachers have lost control of their curriculum to bureaucrats with no experience in education. Teachers today teach for test results. That is a very bad precedent. No Child Left Behind is a disaster. Chicago teachers are tired of it. The city is trying to screw with their pensions also.

If anyone here had to go through what a devoted K-12 teacher goes through you would consider $76,000 to be not enough compensation to put up with the crap teachers face today.

Let's put the education time into perspective. Average time to get a B.Ed four to five years without Summer school. Time to get a M.Ed two years. Time to get an Ed.D two to three years. That is a minimum of eight years in college. An oncologist takes about 12 years of university time to get certified. After that they make millions a year.

Good thing they had good teachers along they way to those millions in compensation each year.

Teachers in this country are being vilified by politicians and the press. I am damn tired of it.

Thirty years ago we had a great public education system in this country. Now we want vouchers, charter schools, and any other way to destroy our excellent public education system that put a man on the moon. Yes I said PUT A MAN ON THE MOON and numerous Mars rovers to explore the red planet that probably holds clues to humankind's fate on this planet. Do we really want to destroy this.

It is all about the money folks. Some greedy people want the money from public education. That is it. Thomas Jefferson would not be happy. You look it up. I expect a book report by Wednesday.

Terrific post. A couple of follow up points. When the surveys are done about the countries that are faring well in the testing, it is noted that the high achieving countries also place teachers high on the social ladder. If we are going to vilify teachers and blame all of society's ills on them, what does that do in terms of recruiting the best and the brightest to be teachers. As John McCain would say, that kind of attitude disincentivizes young people from entering the profession.

Second, you mentioned that our education system put a man on the moon. I was intrigued by an interview with Neil de GrasseTyson in which he advocated a national goal of going to Mars. He sees that as a way to motivate young people to see something bigger than themselves and to aspire toward science.

Regards,

D-Ray

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by Rex E.

Things were a bit different in the schools right up to the late 80's. What's changed?

Chief among the things that changeds was Ronald Reagan appointing a Secretary of Education who was opposed to a system of public education.

John

[JBS...]

Originally Posted by wgrr

I am not picking on you Pete, but I am tired of a bunch of people making judgements on teacher pay and salaries that have no degree or experience in education. Any teacher that makes $76,000 a year has a minimum of a Masters, if not a , in education, and at least fifteen years experience in the classroom.

All that a degree proves is that you are qualified on paper for the job...

I work with people with Master's and PHD's every day and let me tell you a lot of them are just dumb to real world situations, and lack any common sense, book smart comes to mind.

Just because you have a piece of paper that says you can, doesn't mean that you actually can.

I personally think that there are a lot of good teachers and believe they should be paid better. The problem is that we have to pay for the bad ones as well.

Why...?

They should let go of the bad ones, and give the money to the good ones. We should do it for our kids and grandchildrens' sake.

I do agree with you that the problem is a lot bigger than just teachers, but we'll never fix anything if we keep putting our heads in the sand to this fact.

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by wgrr

Thomas Jefferson would not be happy. You look it up. I expect a book report by Wednesday.

This is what Thomas Jefferson stipulated for the inscription on his tombstone.

"Here was buried Thomas Jefferson, author of the Declaration of American Independence, of the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom, and father of the University of Virginia."

Out of all his accomplishments, the ones he wished to be remembered for included a document insuring religious freedom and the founding of a public institution of higher learning. He considered being the President of the United States to be inferior to these other accomplishments.

John

[icenine]

Originally Posted by JBS...

All that a degree proves is that you are qualified on paper for the job...

I work with people with Master's and PHD's every day and let me tell you a lot of them are just dumb to real world situations, and lack any common sense, book smart comes to mind.

Just because you have a piece of paper that says you can, doesn't mean that you actually can.

This kind of comment is always made by those that do not have said degrees they are commenting about, and is part of the reason why teachers do not get respect. Getting a degree may not bestow genius, nor sainthood. But it does demonstrate an ability to complete a life goal, and people who have degrees tend to be able to think critically and perform many beneficial tasks in life not related to their fields of study. It is ok not to have a degree, but to be cavalier in the importance of education is just not a good thing. And lack of post secondary or vocational education will hurt us in the long run. If more people had the opposite view we probably would not have as much trouble with our educational system.

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by bhunter

Everytime someone tries, left or right, the teachers unions fight to maintain their antiquated system. Since we already have the results of letting the teachers and administrators patrol themselves for incompetence, it might be time to try a different approach.

I do have respect for those teachers that are good and work diligently to further the education of their students. Unfortunately, the current system will not let us reward those and terminate those that just go through the motions of teaching.

The teacher's union fights these new evaluation schemes for a very good reason, try these numbers;

85% of the students in Chicago come from families living below the poverty line.

Teachers only have these children 6 or 7 hours a day.

Who knows what they do or have done to them the rest of the day.

Yet some effing genius wants to evaluate the teachers on how well these same students score on some test, likely drawn up by some clueless grad students on their coffee break.

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by icenine

How come the senority system worked for you and me back in the 1960-70s when unions were much stronger in society......teachers had tenure then...

It is so easy to project the ills of society on a group one does not belong too....I am not a teacher....I have never walked a mile in their shoes....it is not as easy as it looks I am sure.....nothing ever is from the outside looking in....

I was a teacher, admittedly teaching adults (well some claimed to be) and I can tell you that it is as much an art as science. It's best reward comes when you see the light go on in a student's eyes. When you know that what you were explaining has registered. The trick is putting whatever it is you are teaching into words that register with the student. I guess I am still trying to teach even here, not that it is registering yet.

[merrylander]

It seems to be a constant complaint that we cannot fire incompetent people, teachers or otherwise, that are represented by a union. Sorry folks, not true, before Bell put me in management I was the union sub-rep. All the union did was to guarantee any worker his/her day in court. You know, like the 6th says we have the right to face our accusers. If management can prove that the worker is incompetent then it is bye bye.

I recall one incident when I really took a plant wire chief to task. The foreman said one of his crew was not measuring up and if he did not shape up in six months he would be dismissed. My response was that it seemed fair if he does not improve after you warn him. The wire chief said oh we can't do that. I blew up and said look, the guy probably thinks he is doing OK, if you don't speak to him why in hell should he change. Management is not always brilliant.

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by Oerets

I have a problem with sport programs that because of the perceived prestige or name recondition will get funding and attention. But other classes are cut or under funded. Build a new pool but eliminate shop classes because it is to expensive. Or band or orchestra classes that have all been cut way back due to budget cuts in elementary schools.

Go to a few class reunions and see how well the jocks did after HS. If they like most never were good enough for collage then they peeked in HS.

Barney

Not sure what your experience is but I have noticed the opposite and statistics support the fact that high school athletes achieve better grades and higher test scores than their piers who do not play sports.

On top of that it makes for a significantly better rounded individual. Someone much better prepared to work toward a goal, respond to disappointments, push oneself to achieve, fill a vital role in the greater good, I could go on and on.

There is a reason top schools require varsity sport participation of it's students.

Sorry Barney, you are way off base with this.

Now if you want to say that you prefer not to pay for a new pool because your school already offers adequate varsity sport and economic time dictate restraint in school spending I would listen but to be impervious to the valued benefits of sport in school will garner a response from me every time.

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by wgrr

I am not picking on you Pete, but I am tired of a bunch of people making judgements on teacher pay and salaries that have no degree or experience in education. Any teacher that makes $76,000 a year has a minimum of a Masters, if not a PhD, in education, and at least fifteen years experience in the classroom.

Most teachers work on their education during their "vacation" to better their teaching skills and receive higher pay. Many work through the Summer working on lesson plans, and preparing their classroom for the Fall semester. This is all done at their expense and time.

The myth that teachers go to work at 8:00 and get off at 3:00 is just that; a myth. Do you think papers grade themselves? What about an English teacher that has to read and grade a few hundred essays turned in every other day. How about the algebra, geometry, Trig, and calculus teacher that has to grade hundreds of tests and quizzes given through the semester. That is usually done at home and not compensated with pay.

The problem in Chicago is not pay. It is the fact that teachers have lost control of their curriculum to bureaucrats with no experience in education. Teachers today teach for test results. That is a very bad precedent. No Child Left Behind is a disaster. Chicago teachers are tired of it. The city is trying to screw with their pensions also.

If anyone here had to go through what a devoted K-12 teacher goes through you would consider $76,000 to be not enough compensation to put up with the crap teachers face today.

Let's put the education time into perspective. Average time to get a B.Ed four to five years without Summer school. Time to get a M.Ed two years. Time to get an Ed.D two to three years. That is a minimum of eight years in college. An oncologist takes about 12 years of university time to get certified. After that they make millions a year.

Good thing they had good teachers along they way to those millions in compensation each year.

Teachers in this country are being vilified by politicians and the press. I am damn tired of it.

Thirty years ago we had a great public education system in this country. Now we want vouchers, charter schools, and any other way to destroy our excellent public education system that put a man on the moon. Yes I said PUT A MAN ON THE MOON and numerous Mars rovers to explore the red planet that probably holds clues to humankind's fate on this planet. Do we really want to destroy this.

It is all about the money folks. Some greedy people want the money from public education. That is it. Thomas Jefferson would not be happy. You look it up. I expect a book report by Wednesday.

As far as teachers pay, you reference their salary, that is not what is breaking the bank. It is the benefit package. The benefits are totally out of line with any other commonly paid American.

Also, I have found that being a good teacher has little to do with having a masters or doctorate. Paying people more for more degrees is not a sound approach. Rewarding teaches who can convey the subject matter they are teaching is what should be rewarded.

Teachers unions are an unholy alliance with politicians. Forget all that mega time off or they do so much work we don;t know about stuff. The free market is not dictating pay, political need is. This is what needs to change.

Hire teachers who can teach not those who can accumulate degrees.
Pay teachers who can teach not those who know the locals.
Pay teachers what the market demands not what is best politically.
Being a teacher is a very desirable job. Short days, lots of vacation. It should be easy to attract top talent in a more economical manner.

If I knew then what I know now I'd definitely go into teaching all monies aside.