Obama Critics Speak Out!

[painter]

Originally Posted by Twodogs

Tort reform would indeed solve a lot of health care problems.

Exactly! But the largest contributors to the Democratic Party are trial lawyers.

[soundhound]

Originally Posted by Twodogs

I'm far from rich, but prefer to work hard and "earn" a decent living for me and mine.

as do i. however, it would take all of my digits to count the number of extremely wealthy people i've worked for who refused to pay me a decent wage on grounds such as: the company can't afford it, you're not going to get any more anywhere else, our pay is on par with the area, etc.

i can recall being denied a quarter on hour pay raise on the grounds "the company can't afford it" by the owner as he sat on the deck of his 84 foot yacht while his employees prepared it to get under way for his monthly cruise to nassau to gamble at the playboy club. and it kills my soul to think that he probably paid less in annual income tax than i did. did he work hard and earn his money? hell no. his parents gave it to him. he never worked a day in his life.

i also owned my own business for a while. i provided a service spray cleaning houses (pressure washing). i recall giving an estimate to a lady one day who told me, "don't let the big house fool you. i'm not rich." i wanted to tell her that my apartment would fit in her garage. she had a house in a gated community, at least 6000 square feet, on at least 2 acres, waterfront, manicured lawn (you can bet she didn't do the maintenance), pool, dock, boathouse, guest quarters, etc.

i've got three female first cousins, two of which married into a family that owns approximately 4500 acres of farm land. i could live on the money they piss away. there are more discarded items, stored all over their farm, that are rotting, than i will ever own. their father left all the land to them. my step-dad mows grass for them part time. they pay him 7 bucks an hour. man, does it really piss me off to hear them talking about how they "didn't make any money this year". yet they can afford to go on 10,000 dollar hunting trips every year. and not that they don't work, they do. however they have hired hands do all the dirty work, for barely over minimum wage.

i could go on and on.

we're talking "take from the rich" here. as you stated, you are not rich. so i'm afraid that i just don't understand why you would be against the rich paying more. they can certainly afford it, it wouldn't dramatically alter their lifestyle, and it would take care of people who can't do better for themselves.

believe me when i say that most poor people (a rather loose term) are NOT poor because they are lazy and don't work. i must admit that there are people who fall into that category, however they are an exception to the rule, not the rule.

[soundhound]

Originally Posted by Twodogs

Tort reform would indeed solve a lot of health care problems.

propaganda! insurance is so high because the insurance companies are getting rich. tort reform prevents the little guy from punishing the wealthy when they do something wrong, usually in the interest of increasing profits, that causes harm.

don't buy the bullshit, man! the bottom line is: the insurance companies and the health care providers want tort reform so their profit margins will increase.

[soundhound]

Originally Posted by painter

I do believe its the law profession that makes doctors fees incredibly inflated.

they certainly contribute. another group that makes WAY too much money. it's a crying shame we live in a country where we have to hire someone to explain the law to us.

however, they seem to be a necessary evil.

are there frivolous law suits? certainly.

are there excessive monetary awards? certainly.

but without the ability to sue, there is nothing to prevent the health care providers from not providing necessary medical treatment or cutting corners in the interest of profit, and nothing to prevent the insurance companies from paying a just and equitable amount.

and if a person is injured in an accident, and is able to be compensated for the cost of treatment, loss of employment, pain and suffering, etc., is that not just capitalism?

[JJIII]

"i find it difficult to understand anyone who would be against taking from the rich and giving to the poor, unless they were rich themselves."

That's just plain scary!

[Twodogs]

Originally Posted by soundhound

as do i. however, it would take all of my digits to count the number of extremely wealthy people i've worked for who refused to pay me a decent wage on grounds such as: the company can't afford it, you're not going to get any more anywhere else, our pay is on par with the area, etc.

i can recall being denied a quarter on hour pay raise on the grounds "the company can't afford it" by the owner as he sat on the deck of his 84 foot yacht while his employees prepared it to get under way for his monthly cruise to nassau to gamble at the playboy club. and it kills my soul to think that he probably paid less in annual income tax than i did. did he work hard and earn his money? hell no. his parents gave it to him. he never worked a day in his life.

i also owned my own business for a while. i provided a service spray cleaning houses (pressure washing). i recall giving an estimate to a lady one day who told me, "don't let the big house fool you. i'm not rich." i wanted to tell her that my apartment would fit in her garage. she had a house in a gated community, at least 6000 square feet, on at least 2 acres, waterfront, manicured lawn (you can bet she didn't do the maintenance), pool, dock, boathouse, guest quarters, etc.

i've got three female first cousins, two of which married into a family that owns approximately 4500 acres of farm land. i could live on the money they piss away. there are more discarded items, stored all over their farm, that are rotting, than i will ever own. their father left all the land to them. my step-dad mows grass for them part time. they pay him 7 bucks an hour. man, does it really piss me off to hear them talking about how they "didn't make any money this year". yet they can afford to go on 10,000 dollar hunting trips every year. and not that they don't work, they do. however they have hired hands do all the dirty work, for barely over minimum wage.

i could go on and on.

we're talking "take from the rich" here. as you stated, you are not rich. so i'm afraid that i just don't understand why you would be against the rich paying more. they can certainly afford it, it wouldn't dramatically alter their lifestyle, and it would take care of people who can't do better for themselves.

believe me when i say that most poor people (a rather loose term) are NOT poor because they are lazy and don't work. i must admit that there are people who fall into that category, however they are an exception to the rule, not the rule.

This is why I work under a contract. There are a lot of things wrong with "Unions" these days, but being organized definitely helps with wage negotiations.

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by Twodogs

Ah, and there lies the difference. I'm far from rich, but prefer to work hard and "earn" a decent living for me and mine. I am fortunate enough to live in a country where I've had the same chance to chase wealth as any other man. Sure, some are born wealthy, and some steal it, but I prefer to focus on the many who started with nothing and built buisnesses that provide goods and services and employ people. Why on earth, would I feel entitled to, or want to take something that I hadn't earned? Our thinking is obviously worlds apart.

I came here in 1984 with my clothes, my tools, and some few possessions. My ex was still living in the house back in Canada and I paid all the taxes on it, mainly because I did not think she would remember to do it. When she eventually decided to sell I got half, invested it here and lost big time in October 87.

Over the past 25 years I worked my ass off, took no handouts from anyone and now I am retired. During the past 8 years I was royally screwed over by the government and paid far more taxes than were necessary. Now we sit on 4.5 acres valued at close to $700,000 and owe nothing to no one.

That said, to claim that everyone here has equal opportunity is a crock. I was discriminated against by age and education during job interviews. The IEEE made me a full member despite the fact that I do not have a degree. They said it was because of my contributions to the discipline. Every test I have been given in the past put me in the 99th percentile on a standard Gaussian distribution. It may sound like bragging but I have never been faced with any job challenge that I could not conquer.

If I as your friendly neighborhood WASP faced some of this crap imagine what it would have been like if my skin was black. There are inequalites galore here and rather than spout the usual Republican bovine excrement we should be looking to fix what is wrong. When the CEO is kissing the butts of the Board members so they will vote him an 8 figure salary, that is wrong. When the wages of the former middle class have not kept pace with inflation, that is wrong. When drug companies can raise their prices 55% in 4 years, that is wrong. When brokers can sell sub prime mortgages to people they know will default, but walk away with their 'points' scot free, that is wrong. When investment banks can bundle those mortgages into derivatives and sell 'tranches', that is worng (not to mention corrupt). And that is the short list.

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by painter

I do believe its the law profession that makes doctors fees incredibly inflated. Seems ambulance chasers are in the front seat. The cost of malpractice insurance is staggering. Oh...I wonder if healthcare becomes Fed issued...will that change? Will an injured patient be available for a malpractice suit? Anyone know?

The actual number of malpractice suits that go over the top is really miniscule, it is simply the insurance company propoganda so they can jack up the rates. If you were to wind up in a wheel chair at age 25 due to some doctor's negligence do you believe a cap of say $150,000 would be fair and would keep you for say the next 40 years?

[painter]

Originally Posted by merrylander

The actual number of malpractice suits that go over the top is really miniscule, it is simply the insurance company propoganda so they can jack up the rates. If you were to wind up in a wheel chair at age 25 due to some doctor's negligence do you believe a cap of say $150,000 would be fair and would keep you for say the next 40 years?

My opinion was to explain the escalating doctors fees. Nurses as well. I know a nurse who left hospital duty to teach at a local college because of the malpractice costs. I'm all for just compensation. But a health care tort system WILL not afford the twenty five year old you spoke of justice.
It's a tough one to deal with merrylander. Health care for illegals has not helped matters.
If auntie from Africa is allowed to stay and collect benefits...well...where does that leave a natural born citizen?

[Twodogs]

Well, if capitalism is indeed dying (or dead), I guess it was a hell of a run.