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10-26-2009, 06:27 PM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10,348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d-ray657
Chas, I think your argument would have more validity if the Old Confederate Home actually housed veterans of the Civil War. At this point in our history we no longer have any living veterans who fought under either flag during that sad period in our history.
If the place of which you speak is a memorial to those who fought on behalf of the south, the flag would have an historical significance to the visitors of such a monument other than simply as a symbol of slavery. You might want to enlighten us on the purpose of the Home.
I think you would agree, however, that many perceive the flag as a symbol of slavery, especially when used in other than the historical context. I agree that the history is more complicated than that, but the complexities of history do not prevent a symbol from evoking a strong reaction. As I said before, there is no Constitutional basis of which I am aware to prevent one from flying that flag. Nevertheless, because it is widely perceived as a symbol of a shameful practice in this nation, people who see value in building a less divisive society would be better served by refraining from such displays.
I am sometimes irritated by political correctness - it can be an obstacle to effective communication. In many instances, however, when one considers using words or humor that play on stereotypes, it can be particularly insulting and insensitive toward people who are assumed to fit those stereotypes.
I will cuss a little bit, but would never be mistaken for a sailor. I generally avoid the F-bomb. But my sensibilities have reached the point that I find it distasteful to even quote an instance in which the N-word is used. (And I don't think it is appropriate for rappers or any member of any race to use the word.) Why can't we just get along?
Regards,
D-Ray
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I already have, but I'll run through it again.
The Old Confederates Home, to the best of my knowledge, was built, and funded by ex Confederates as basically a poor house/retirement home for Confederate veterans. Their pension wasn't much. The site also contains a graveyard of Confederate veterans.
It is now a Missouri Historical Site, it's upkeep funded by the Sate of Missouri. And the Confederate Flag flew proudly from it's inception until....
Gephardt was running for president, and made a statement to the effect that the Confederate Flag should not be flown anywhere at any time. He was ambushed by a reporter who knew about the Old Confederates Home. So as to provide political cover for Dick, Holden had the flag removed.
This really insulted a lot of people. Including liberal Democrats who hapen to be members of the SCV.
I've been summoned to supper, and I know my place. Otherwise I would take this further.
Chas
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10-26-2009, 06:29 PM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Middle Tennessee
Posts: 1,378
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"Dispels myths about Southern history and sets the historical record straight with well documented research."
--Lake Charles American Press
Much of Civil War history is untrue because, like most history, it is written by the victor. Most of us were taught that hundreds of thousands of Southern men went to war over slavery--an issue that only affected six percent of the population. Here is a recorded version of the book that reveals the truth: there was no shining Northern force fighting a moral battle for the sake of ending slavery; there was no oppressive Southern force fighting to preserve it. In fact, after the South declared its independence, the Union ruthlessly invaded, leaving Southerners no choice but to defend themselves.
Unfortunately, the South lost the struggle and has suffered ever since.Today, as a result of the war in which the South lost its right to be a free country, there is a continuing effort to obliterate all symbols dear to Southerners and make sure that the Southern states continue to have fewer rights under the constitution than other states.
One of the most talked-about books of the decade, The South Was Right!, filled with documented evidence supporting all the Kennedys' claims, presents a frightening picture of a captured people, their struggle to preserve their heritage, and their right to exist as an independent country and as a distinct culture.
http://www.amazon.com/South-Right-Ja.../dp/1565540247
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10-26-2009, 06:30 PM
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Abby Normal
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Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 11,245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
I already have, but I'll run through it again.
The Old Confederates Home, to the best of my knowledge, was built, and funded by ex Confederates as basically a poor house/retirement home for Confederate veterans. Their pension wasn't much. The site also contains a graveyard of Confederate veterans.
It is now a Missouri Historical Site, it's upkeep funded by the Sate of Missouri. And the Confederate Flag flew proudly from it's inception until....
Gephardt was running for president, and made a statement to the effect that the Confederate Flag should not be flown anywhere at any time. He was ambushed by a reporter who knew about the Old Confederates Home. So as to provide political cover for Dick, Holden had the flag removed.
This really insulted a lot of people. Including liberal Democrats who hapen to be members of the SCV.
I've been summoned to supper, and I know my place. Otherwise I would take this further.
Chas
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I always did like Gephardt.
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10-26-2009, 07:25 PM
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Loyal Opposition
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Johnson County, Kansas
Posts: 14,401
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I'll avoid a debate on the correctness or incorrectness of the civil war (the terms I have grown up with). I would not doubt that there were atrocities committed by those on both sides of the war. One thing that I don't think history has hidden is that the war was fought in bloody savage conditions, certainly not the kind of conditions that would bring out the best in human nature. I do think the legal issues about the ability to secede have been determined and now stand as the law of the land.
You gentlemen have proved a point about the importance of free expression. Instead of saying that you don't care what anybody thinks about the confederate flag, you have provided some historical perspective to at least give me pause to think about the meaning of that symbol for students of southern history. Your educational comments countered some of the negative connotations of the flag.
In the long run, however, I think that we as a people need to get beyond historical divisions in this country and work to create more of a unified nation than a collection of factions and racial groups. We need to become more civil. In my mind, that includes being aware of how our conduct affects other people, and avoiding symbols that emphasize divisiveness. You however, have the right to completely disagree with me. In that case, I will need to find a way to more persuasively develop my position, but not to shut you up - unless you say something bad about my Sooners.
Regards,
D-Ray
__________________
Then I'll get on my knees and pray,
We won't get fooled again; Don't get fooled again
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10-26-2009, 07:40 PM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Heartland
Posts: 164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hillbilly
In recent years the Confederate Flag has been maligned as a symbol of racism.
Confederate: (The World Book Encyclopedia Dictionary) (1)-" a country, person, etc. joined with another for mutual support or joint action." The original 13 colonies were a confederation.
The United States was originally a confederation of states, with each running their own state government. The 10th Amendment to our Constitution provided the federal government only with certain specific rights. Everything not specifically delegated to the federal government was supposed to be left to the state governments.
In their quest for expansion of federal power, President Lincoln and his supporters ignored the 10th Amendment to our Constitution and started the War of Northern Aggression. (so called "Civil War.)
The war of 1861-1865 was not a civil war. It was fought between two nations. When the Constitution was ratified the states retained the right to secede. When the rights of the Southern States were abrogated, they exercised that privilege. After withdrawing from the Union, they formed their own government, the Confederate States of America, a separate government. The state of Massachusetts had threatened to exercise this right only a few years previously, over the Louisiana Territory. The war was fought for constitutional rights.
This war was not fought over the issue of slavery. The North did not at first fight to free the slaves. "I have no purpose, directly, or indirectly, to interfere with slavery in the states where it exists," said Lincoln early in the conflict. The Union Congress overwhelmingly endorsed this position in July 1861, some three months after the war began in April. Within a year however, desperately trying to regain waning public support for the war, both Lincoln and the Congress decided to make emancipation of slaves in Confederate States a Union war policy.
It is interesting the U.S. Gen. Grant didn't free his own slaves until after the war was over. Gen. Lee himself didn't believe in slavey and had already freed his slaves. Another interesting fact is that only 6 percent of Southerners owned slaves, and among this 6 percent were 13,000 free blacks who owned slaves themselves.
The truth is that the vast majority of white people were very poor and had to work just as hard as the slaves to survive, and out of necessity, so did their sharecroppers.
The victor in a war always gets to write the history. Consequently, much of our history is hogwash.
Many relevant facts are either omitted or distorted for political purposed, much the same as the propaganda put out by our major networks and "news" papers.
Impeach present federal judges and restore constitutional government.
All of the above is what the Confederate flag means to me. Long may it wave.
http://reformed-theology.org/southern/general.htm
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Damn fine post!!
__________________
A man is none the less a slave because he is allowed to choose a new master once in a term of years
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10-26-2009, 08:27 PM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 169
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I'm staying out of this.
__________________
Avatar is Barry Lopez's book "Resistance"
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10-27-2009, 01:00 AM
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Area Man
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Swamp
Posts: 27,407
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Something tells me this thread will be around for a while.
"He started it! No teacher, HE started it! You fibber, you threw the first punch!
Yeah, well my Dad can kick YOUR Dads ass!"
All I have left to say about this issue is this;
Really, the "Stars and Bars" is getting to be a rare sight around here anyways.
And personally, it means nothing to me. Just a relic from a horrific period in our nations history.
So many dead and so much destruction. Sad, just plain sad.
As I said, my ancestors fought on both sides of the war. (Whatever name you choose to call it.)
Maybe this gives me a unique perspective somehow?
But, I will ask this;
How many people do you know who insist on displaying it,
who you can honestly say aren't bigots? I can't think of a single one.
But, that's just me. Your experiences may vary.
There. I've said my piece,
now if you'll pardon me,
I need to get some sleep.
Dave
Last edited by BlueStreak; 10-27-2009 at 03:05 AM.
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10-27-2009, 01:01 AM
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Area Man
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: The Swamp
Posts: 27,407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wajobu
I'm staying out of this.
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Smart move. I regret having "stirred the pot".
Dave
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10-27-2009, 06:30 AM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 10,348
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Confederate Home
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10-27-2009, 07:35 AM
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Possibly admin. Maybe ;)
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Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Land of the burning river
Posts: 21,098
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
BTW, I don't "hate" anybody.
Chas
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Amen. Except for intolerant people. I HATE people like that!
Quote:
Originally Posted by hillbilly
In recent years the Confederate Flag has been maligned as a symbol of racism.
Confederate: (The World Book Encyclopedia Dictionary) (1)-" a country, person, etc. joined with another for mutual support or joint action." The original 13 colonies were a confederation.
The United States was originally a confederation of states, with each running their own state government. The 10th Amendment to our Constitution provided the federal government only with certain specific rights. Everything not specifically delegated to the federal government was supposed to be left to the state governments.
In their quest for expansion of federal power, President Lincoln and his supporters ignored the 10th Amendment to our Constitution and started the War of Northern Aggression. (so called "Civil War.)
The war of 1861-1865 was not a civil war. It was fought between two nations. When the Constitution was ratified the states retained the right to secede. When the rights of the Southern States were abrogated, they exercised that privilege. After withdrawing from the Union, they formed their own government, the Confederate States of America, a separate government. The state of Massachusetts had threatened to exercise this right only a few years previously, over the Louisiana Territory. The war was fought for constitutional rights.
This war was not fought over the issue of slavery. The North did not at first fight to free the slaves. "I have no purpose, directly, or indirectly, to interfere with slavery in the states where it exists," said Lincoln early in the conflict. The Union Congress overwhelmingly endorsed this position in July 1861, some three months after the war began in April. Within a year however, desperately trying to regain waning public support for the war, both Lincoln and the Congress decided to make emancipation of slaves in Confederate States a Union war policy.
It is interesting the U.S. Gen. Grant didn't free his own slaves until after the war was over. Gen. Lee himself didn't believe in slavey and had already freed his slaves. Another interesting fact is that only 6 percent of Southerners owned slaves, and among this 6 percent were 13,000 free blacks who owned slaves themselves.
The truth is that the vast majority of white people were very poor and had to work just as hard as the slaves to survive, and out of necessity, so did their sharecroppers.
The victor in a war always gets to write the history. Consequently, much of our history is hogwash.
Many relevant facts are either omitted or distorted for political purposed, much the same as the propaganda put out by our major networks and "news" papers.
Impeach present federal judges and restore constitutional government.
All of the above is what the Confederate flag means to me. Long may it wave.
http://reformed-theology.org/southern/general.htm
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This is such an excellent thread! Having read some English histories of the Revolution I see the bias in textbooks for sure and a lot of 'real' history too.
Slavery was a problem from day one, one the Founders figured (probably more like desperately hoped and prayed) would go away on it's own. It didn't, and through the issue of slavery States rights were brought to the fore (I remember reading one prominent Southerner put 'States Rights' as his son's middle name!! lol)
But one thing brought the issue to the front and ignited the flames of war - not slavery in the South, but the expansion of slavery into new States. The Feds had no authority to stop slavery in the existing States.
The South did fire the first shot of the war.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles
I've been summoned to supper, and I know my place.
Chas
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Lol. Long live the Revolution!
Pete
__________________
“How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.”
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