Pope John Paul's Beatification ....

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

FinBow: Glad you asked. I support people of faith because I've pondered this exact question. See it's not the "belief in myths" part that makes faithful people credible in their commitment to morals -- It's the DISCIPLINE and RITUAL and regular EXERCISE of those scruples and tenets that give them MORE credibility than your eggheaded secular humanist. Getting you ass and your families' asses out of bed every Sunday to go RENEW those commitments. Or as I now look at the important relief work being done by the strong church communities here after the tornado disasters. I don't tractor trailers of Atheist relief or Secular Humanist donuts being offered.

There's a lot to be said about discipline and exercise of your morals, and I don't see those mechanisms for the know-it-alls over on the secular humanist side. Just a lot of chest-thumping superiority and dreadful lack of humility...

A bunch of sanctimonious squat-pile, this. Do you live on earth, or some other planet where things actually work this way? You surely haven't witnessed the same human nature I have.

Dave

[d-ray657]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

Fact based? Heck, they'd swallow an elephant How's final entropy working out?

Many don't realise that the 1st amendment was as much to protect the church as the government.

And, Christanity was a powerful underground force before Constantine, even under risk of brutal painful death. Can't say what would've happened if he didn't convert.

Pete

The First Amendment contained protection for ALL churches, and individuals.

I'm quite comfortable believing that there are atheists who live quite disciplined lives, and there are those who manage to make it to church on Sundays who can't find the top of their desk. The soup kitchen workers, disaster helpers, etc. come from a small portion of people who consider themselves Christians, even from a small portion of regular church attendees.

I will provide, however, one example of how religious adherence had a positive effect on discipline. The Methodist name for the church denomination comes from what was originally meant as a derogatory term. Some ridiculed the rigid discipline taught by Charles Wesley and those who adopted his theology. It also turned out that a proportionally greater number of Methodists succeeded in business and politics, and much of that success was attributed to the level of discipline they had adopted into their daily lives.

I'm fully expect that adherent's of the mental discipline of Buddhism have found that to be beneficial to success as well. Seems like the LA Lakers had a basketball coach who won a few championships who followed the teachings of Buddhism.

There are also those who have come from the military who have had very successful careeers, and can attribute much of the the the discipline they learned in the military. Considering that only a small percentage of Americans serve in the military, the 20-25% portion of Congress who are veterans represent a high degree of success at that level.

I think that whatever avenues we can find to encourage us to become better persons should be welcomed.

Regards,

D-Ray

[piece-itpete]

The only example we have of a State sponsored atheism was a disaster for humanity. Something to think about.

Pete

[piece-itpete]

Thank you D, very well said.

Pete

[d-ray657]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

The only example we have of a State sponsored atheism was a disaster for humanity. Something to think about.

Pete

That is just another example of the way in which the Soviets withheld personal freedom. The failure was more the failure of totalitarianism than of anything. Any political system that does not allow for freedom of thought is bound to die of stagnation.

Regards,

D-Ray

[piece-itpete]

I agree somewhat. It was and is part of their basic creed.

Pete

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

The only example we have of a State sponsored atheism was a disaster for humanity. Something to think about.

Pete

Somebody is suggesting state sponsored Atheism? Or are we just enforcing an non-Christians right to live without harassment or reduction second class citizen? Is that what has your knickers in a knot?

Dave

[piece-itpete]

People are still allowed to vote their conscience. As long as they will not vote for a declared atheist it is so. Does that make an atheist a second class citizen? No, as long as you don't run for office

And I'm allowed to speak in public, right?

Pete

[flacaltenn]

Really BlueStreak?

You think that folks who just "claim" that their morals and altruism are well defined and excersized should be taken at face value? Or do we require some examples? Maybe an Atheist code we can all link to?

I personally believe that you need discipline and ritual and participation to keep you focused so that your ethics don't become situational or "relative".

The only "squat-pile" I see is all the venomous pronouncements of how people of religious faith are stupid and duped. In fact, my observation is the more you know about the science of how stuff works, and how untrustworthy the judgements of men are -- the more you need faith and humility.

I did also leave out the fact that for almost EVERY Civil Rights struggle in the history of man, religion has paid a major role.. Take that and stuff it somewhere..

Truce...

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

I did also leave out the fact that for almost EVERY Civil Rights struggle in the history of man, religion has paid a major role.. Take that and stuff it somewhere..

Truce...

Immigrant rights, Gay Rights, religious rights of American Muslims?

It seems the Religious Right didn't get the memo.

FWIW, the race wars of the Sixties were fought in the most religious states in the nation (see my previous list), and it was the secularists from up north (along with others from the least religious states in the list) who came down South and supported the Blacks.

One more. The Vatican was silent during the Holocaust, the biggest systematic deprivation of civil rights in world history (Pope Pius XII was said by many to be supportive of the Germans). In fact, the church felt it necessary to come out and apologize for this silence.

As for the rights of young kids not be be sexually molested in their houses of worship (and having the crimes covered up by the church for decades), don't get me started.

Pitch me another straw man. That was just too damn easy.