TWODOGS, Why did you choose your new avatar?

[piece-itpete]

Rob, I've read that there were quite a few Americans that became Canadians after the rebellion in 1776. I wonder if that has anything to do with it? Or did your ancestors come straight to Canada from Europe?

Noone, that did it, now I'm going to fly the reb flag next to my don't tread on me flag

Pete

[spasmo55]

Originally Posted by BlueStreak

I really hesitate to do this, but I just can't stop myself. I was born in Ohio but have lived in the South for most of my life. My mothers side of the family came from Virginia and I have ancestors who fought on BOTH sides of the war. So, now that that's out of the way...............

Charles, and I'm sure Twodogs and hillbilly will chime in,

In the argument over whether it was "slavery" or "states rights" that the Civil War was fought over;

1). You're right. The original argument for going to war was "States Rights".
But, which "Right" was it the South was claiming? Could it have been
the claimed right to secession*?

2). And why would the Confederates wish to secede from the Union?
What was the big issue of the times? Could it have been the growing
outcry from "Abolishionists" mostly, (but not entirely), in the Northern
states for a federal ban on.................Slavery? Yeah, pretty much.

* Read Article 1, section 10 of the U.S. Constitution; "No state shall
enter into any .......confederation, for the printing of money,
establishment of tariff.... without the consent of the congress.....
engage in acts of war............." Well, you can read.
And Article 1 was not a later amendment. It was written by
the founders themselves. Many of them Southerners.

Sorry, but as I see it, the issue traced all the way back to it's roots, leads to.........slavery, and an action forbidden by the Constitution....Secession without the consent of Congress.

Then I hear, "Well, Lincoln wasn't really opposed to slavery.". This is a falsehood as well. Lincoln was involved in the Abolishion Movement long before his Presidency. Some quote him as having said, "I cannot win this war without freeing slaves,", but that's only half of the quote, The other half is, "nor can I free any slaves without victory in this war." A mutual imperitive, both HAD to happen, is what he was saying, because he was being asked to make a compromise with the South in order to bring an earlier end to the war. A compromise he refused to make.

Oh, I agree with y'all that there is a whitewashing being attempted in regards to the Civil War. I just don't agree with you on WHO'S doing the whitewashing.

Sorry my friends, but that's how I see it.

Dave

Alright, one of my favorite subjects, the "War between the States"

A "Civil War" by definition is a party wishing to overthrow and REPLACE the current gov't, certainly not on the souths agenda.

Points 1 & 2

Article 1 Section 10 prohibits those actions "WHILE" being a state within the union, it does not state that you cannot secede. The Black 9 may attempt to interpret things that way, but of course they are a federal bunch who know who butters their bread. Nothing there states no state may leave the union does it?

The intitial reason was the federal gov't laying excessive tariffs and imposts on the agriculutral products of the south, the north being industrial was not suffering from these.

If you would take a little time and consider the actions of many officers that were West Point grads, patriots and veterans of war who decided to side with the south because they felt a stronger bond with their state than with the federal gov't, you may gain a little insight as to the real reasons for the war.
Men like Lee, Longfellow and Armistead were learned men of very high caliber and truly understood the intent of our original founding fathers who were in fact their immediate relatives.

Now if you have the time, read and consider both Executive orders comprising the "Emancipation Proclamation", paying particular attention to the dates of both, that is a hint about the reason for the war. In fact here is the first para of the 1862 order:

I, Abraham Lincoln, President of the United States of America, and Commander-in-Chief of the Army and Navy thereof, do hereby proclaim and declare that hereafter, as heretofore, the war will be prosecuted for the object of practically restoring the constitutional relation between the United States, and each of the states, and the people thereof, in which states that relation is, or may be suspended or disturbed.

The Prez using exec authority during time of war to make law.

We were formed as a Federated Republic but have become a Representative Democracy due to this war. In my humble opinion this was the beginning of our demise.

Now, if you have any inclination consider that slavery has been with man since pre-history. This nation was very young and struggling with a new form of gov't, so do not act like the people of the south developed this concept on their own and should bear some guilt over it.

The Stars and Bars has been vilified as "The" symbol of slavery, just as the Swatztika represents Nazi's, though that symbol also has a history in other cultures of some very good things.

When you wish to breed hate you must give those you wish to control a symbol to focus on, as Hitler did with the Star of David and our nation is doing with the "Stars & Bars".

Winners write the history, that should clue you in as to who done the whitewashing, so fly your flags proudly folks.

The only flags I fly are our National flag and of course the "Happy Hour" flag, with a big ol' mug of beer on it.

[d-ray657]

Article IV, Section 3.[1] New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the jurisdiction of any other state; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.

Both paragraph [1] and [3] of Article I, Section 10 prohibits the states from entering into a confederation of states or an agreement or compact to wage war.

It seems to me that if a state has given up sovereignty over their boundaries, they have given up the soverignty to say that their boundaries are not within the United States. Certainly if they could not remove their borders from the United States, they remained states and further violated the Constitution by entering into the confederacy and waging war against the US.

The rebel flag does not evoke strong feelings from me, but I grew up a suburban white boy and my ancestors came here voluntarily. But there is no room for doubt that it does evoke strong emotions and a reminder of slavery. Moreover, it is revisionist history to suggest that President Lincoln did not have the Constitutional authority to prevent secession.

EDIT: To be sure, I don't advocate any law prohibiting the display of the rebel flag. As I have stated before, the best response to hateful speech is speech putting forward better ideas. To me it's a better idea to not invoke memories of a time of slavery. And yes slavery was not invented by the southern states. But we are a civilized society, and I expect civilization to advance, not regress. One would hope that, despite it's long history, no one believes in enslaving another human being.

Regards,

D-Ray

[Charles]

Originally Posted by noonereal

I know you don't live this issue or you would not offer an excuse to fly it.

Do they fly the WWII German swastika flag over Auschwitz-Birkenau?

It's an insane analogy.

Sorry Chas, you have just offered up the first post I can say you are dead wrong on.

Heritage?????? an excuse for hate??????

Flying the Confederate Flag on the grounds of the Old Confederates Home in Higginsville is the same as flying the swastika over Auschwitz?

Are you telling me that the million or so Jews who were murdered there had proudly fought under the swastika?

If you reread my post you will find that I drew no analogy.

But you have. I won't go so far as to call it insane, but it is hardly valid.

While you find my position to be dead wrong, I find that it has some merit. And while I CAN appreciate your position on this matter, it is apparent to me that you refuse to give my viewpoints any consideration whatsoever.

I'm beginning to see why we had a big assed war back in 1860.

BTW, I don't "hate" anybody.

Chas

[Charles]

Originally Posted by Twodogs

Well hell Charles, I thought you really wanted to do a nightride.

Dog, haven't yew figgered out yet that all I am is a asinine tough guy redneck who's full of shit? Take away my pea shooter and I'm nuttin'.

Sorry to let you down.

Chas

PS: Did you ever think that doing something as mundane as changing your avatar to the Stars and Bars would stir up this much shit?

[d-ray657]

Chas, I think your argument would have more validity if the Old Confederate Home actually housed veterans of the Civil War. At this point in our history we no longer have any living veterans who fought under either flag during that sad period in our history.

If the place of which you speak is a memorial to those who fought on behalf of the south, the flag would have an historical significance to the visitors of such a monument other than simply as a symbol of slavery. You might want to enlighten us on the purpose of the Home.

I think you would agree, however, that many perceive the flag as a symbol of slavery, especially when used in other than the historical context. I agree that the history is more complicated than that, but the complexities of history do not prevent a symbol from evoking a strong reaction. As I said before, there is no Constitutional basis of which I am aware to prevent one from flying that flag. Nevertheless, because it is widely perceived as a symbol of a shameful practice in this nation, people who see value in building a less divisive society would be better served by refraining from such displays.

I am sometimes irritated by political correctness - it can be an obstacle to effective communication. In many instances, however, when one considers using words or humor that play on stereotypes, it can be particularly insulting and insensitive toward people who are assumed to fit those stereotypes.

I will cuss a little bit, but would never be mistaken for a sailor. I generally avoid the F-bomb. But my sensibilities have reached the point that I find it distasteful to even quote an instance in which the N-word is used. (And I don't think it is appropriate for rappers or any member of any race to use the word.) Why can't we just get along?

Regards,

D-Ray

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by Charles

PS: Did you ever think that doing something as mundane as changing your avatar to the Stars and Bars would stir up this much shit?

I doubt dog did but he should have known.

Sorry guys don't want to make enemes of friends here but this is a symbol as powerful as the swastika.

If you never thought of it like that, you are now aware.

[noonereal]

Yes, absolutely.

Their murderers did.

I drew the analogy.

It is very valid.

I think it's one of those things that you need to respect until you do understand it.
I say that because weather it is right or wrong to fly the confederate flag is irrelevant because it is a powerful symbol of hate.

Of course I understand your view but weather you are correct or not in your view does not change what it has become.
Really what you are saying is that it should not have become a symbol of hate.
I can defiantly see your point on that.

But it already has.

I know that. But if you fly that flag a stranger will assume you do.

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by d-ray657

Chas, I think your argument would have more validity if the Old Confederate Home actually housed veterans of the Civil War. At this point in our history we no longer have any living veterans who fought under either flag during that sad period in our history.

If the place of which you speak is a memorial to those who fought on behalf of the south, the flag would have an historical significance to the visitors of such a monument other than simply as a symbol of slavery. You might want to enlighten us on the purpose of the Home.

I think you would agree, however, that many perceive the flag as a symbol of slavery, especially when used in other than the historical context. I agree that the history is more complicated than that, but the complexities of history do not prevent a symbol from evoking a strong reaction. As I said before, there is no Constitutional basis of which I am aware to prevent one from flying that flag. Nevertheless, because it is widely perceived as a symbol of a shameful practice in this nation, people who see value in building a less divisive society would be better served by refraining from such displays.

I am sometimes irritated by political correctness - it can be an obstacle to effective communication. In many instances, however, when one considers using words or humor that play on stereotypes, it can be particularly insulting and insensitive toward people who are assumed to fit those stereotypes.

I will cuss a little bit, but would never be mistaken for a sailor. I generally avoid the F-bomb. But my sensibilities have reached the point that I find it distasteful to even quote an instance in which the N-word is used. (And I don't think it is appropriate for rappers or any member of any race to use the word.) Why can't we just get along?

Regards,

D-Ray

That is exactly what I would say, if I were edumacated.

[hillbilly]

In recent years the Confederate Flag has been maligned as a symbol of racism.

Confederate: (The World Book Encyclopedia Dictionary) (1)-" a country, person, etc. joined with another for mutual support or joint action." The original 13 colonies were a confederation.

The United States was originally a confederation of states, with each running their own state government. The 10th Amendment to our Constitution provided the federal government only with certain specific rights. Everything not specifically delegated to the federal government was supposed to be left to the state governments.

In their quest for expansion of federal power, President Lincoln and his supporters ignored the 10th Amendment to our Constitution and started the War of Northern Aggression. (so called "Civil War.)

The war of 1861-1865 was not a civil war. It was fought between two nations. When the Constitution was ratified the states retained the right to secede. When the rights of the Southern States were abrogated, they exercised that privilege. After withdrawing from the Union, they formed their own government, the Confederate States of America, a separate government. The state of Massachusetts had threatened to exercise this right only a few years previously, over the Louisiana Territory. The war was fought for constitutional rights.

This war was not fought over the issue of slavery. The North did not at first fight to free the slaves. "I have no purpose, directly, or indirectly, to interfere with slavery in the states where it exists," said Lincoln early in the conflict. The Union Congress overwhelmingly endorsed this position in July 1861, some three months after the war began in April. Within a year however, desperately trying to regain waning public support for the war, both Lincoln and the Congress decided to make emancipation of slaves in Confederate States a Union war policy.

It is interesting the U.S. Gen. Grant didn't free his own slaves until after the war was over. Gen. Lee himself didn't believe in slavey and had already freed his slaves. Another interesting fact is that only 6 percent of Southerners owned slaves, and among this 6 percent were 13,000 free blacks who owned slaves themselves.

The truth is that the vast majority of white people were very poor and had to work just as hard as the slaves to survive, and out of necessity, so did their sharecroppers.

The victor in a war always gets to write the history. Consequently, much of our history is hogwash.

Many relevant facts are either omitted or distorted for political purposed, much the same as the propaganda put out by our major networks and "news" papers.

Impeach present federal judges and restore constitutional government.

All of the above is what the Confederate flag means to me. Long may it wave.

http://reformed-theology.org/southern/general.htm