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  #11  
Old 11-30-2009, 06:15 PM
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Boreas Boreas is offline
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Originally Posted by Fast_Eddie View Post
Extra credit- find the Clinton administration on the chart above.
The thing I find astonishing is that Clinton didn't really get a handle on it until his second term when the shit really hit the fan. How that man got anything accomplished with the impeachment and Ken Starr and the Republican Congress digging into every aspect of his personal and professional life beggers belief.

John
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  #12  
Old 11-30-2009, 06:56 PM
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"Love it or leave it" is alive and well here I see. You know, if you Righties would open your eyes you'd see that some other countries have some things worth emulating.

You might also do well to remember what that "Good Ol' Yankee Ingenuity" actually was, (emphasis on "was"). It was the ability to take what was best from any source and craft a unique solution that was better than any of its predecessors. We don't do that any more. We're so besotted by the notion of "American Exceptionalism" that we believe there's no better way to do anything other than the "way we've always done it".



I wish we would take a few pages from the way some European countries handle the social contract but nothing has transpired to give me any hope of that. All you have to do is look at the pig's breakfast that's likely to be foisted on us as "Health Care Reform" to see just how far from a social democracy we are and how close to a corporatocracy.

John



We do need health care reform but I have not seen a palatable solution provided by either party yet. As far as whats being currently presented, one would have to assume that even the current admin. and congress doesn't appear to like it much as they have excluded themselves from the need to participate.

I understand that Germany's national health care program is starting to quake under the weight of it all. It's the oldest system of it's kind from what I have read.

RC
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  #13  
Old 11-30-2009, 07:15 PM
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We do need health care reform but I have not seen a palatable solution provided by either party yet. As far as whats being currently presented, one would have to assume that even the current admin. and congress doesn't appear to like it much as they have excluded themselves from the need to participate.
I don't like what's being put forward either. I hesitate to say "by either party" because it's clear that the Republicans have no interest in effecting changes that aren't intended to benefit the insurance industry. Democrats, on the other hand, seem to want to make real improvements to our health care system but are too beholden to the health care monopoly to take things very far.

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I understand that Germany's national health care program is starting to quake under the weight of it all. It's the oldest system of it's kind from what I have read.
I hadn't heard that. In any event, I'd want to hear it from multiple independent sources. The industry has been spreading false doom and gloom scenarios about other country's health care programs ever since this whole thing started. There's a lot of deliberate misinformation out there.

John
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  #14  
Old 11-30-2009, 07:23 PM
noonereal noonereal is offline
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Originally Posted by doucanoe View Post
We do need health care reform but I have not seen a palatable solution provided by either party yet. As far as whats being currently presented, one would have to assume that even the current admin. and congress doesn't appear to like it much as they have excluded themselves from the need to participate.

I understand that Germany's national health care program is starting to quake under the weight of it all. It's the oldest system of it's kind from what I have read.

RC
I don't see how any supporter of universal health care can possibly support the current legislation. From what I can gather all the present legislation does is demand that all those that can afford health insurance be obliged to buy it in return for dropping some pre existing conditions exclusions.
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  #15  
Old 11-30-2009, 07:25 PM
noonereal noonereal is offline
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Originally Posted by Boreas View Post
I don't like what's being put forward either. I hesitate to say "by either party" because it's clear that the Republicans have no interest in effecting changes that aren't intended to benefit the insurance industry. Democrats, on the other hand, seem to want to make real improvements to our health care system but are too beholden to the health care monopoly to take things very far.


BINGO!
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  #16  
Old 11-30-2009, 09:25 PM
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Tennessee has been talking about it and has made a couple good points. They reminding folks of how fast the TN-Care system went to hell. They said anytime it is easy for folks to get free health insurance, more folks will lean towards the free rather than providing for themselves. Folks that got on TN-Care started going to the ER when they couldn't see their regular doctor the moment they wanted to see him, and when it's not an emergency it hurts the hell out of the system. Folks that got on TN-Care also started rushing to the doctor anytime they, or their child got a little sniffle that'd gone away in a day or two without the need to see a doctor.

Folks paying for their own insurance that have to spend their own money for a copay each doctor visit are far less likely to waste money over a little sniffle.
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  #17  
Old 11-30-2009, 09:44 PM
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Tennessee has been talking about it and has made a couple good points. They reminding folks of how fast the TN-Care system went to hell. They said anytime it is easy for folks to get free health insurance, more folks will lean towards the free rather than providing for themselves. Folks that got on TN-Care started going to the ER when they couldn't see their regular doctor the moment they wanted to see him, and when it's not an emergency it hurts the hell out of the system. Folks that got on TN-Care also started rushing to the doctor anytime they, or their child got a little sniffle that'd gone away in a day or two without the need to see a doctor.
The thing about using the emergency room as your primary health care provider is that the uninsured do that too. Except they do it every time. At least with TN-Care folks could see their plan doctor some of the time. Also, I don't see a problem with people erring on the side of caution and seeing a doctor when it might not be necessary. That's far better than not seeing a doctor when it is necessary.

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Folks paying for their own insurance that have to spend their own money for a copay each doctor visit are far less likely to waste money over a little sniffle.
But you see , none of the health care plans before Congress include anything in the way of free health care beyond Medicaid which already exists as a means tested program. The "Public Option" you hear about isn't free and it isn't "government health care". It's also a means tested program with private health care provided through private insurance companies.

John
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  #18  
Old 11-30-2009, 09:51 PM
noonereal noonereal is offline
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But you see , none of the health care plans before Congress include anything in the way of free health care beyond Medicaid which already exists as a means tested program. The "Public Option" you hear about isn't free and it isn't "government health care". It's also a means tested program with private health care provided through private insurance companies.
Otherwise know as a get rich quick scheme.
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  #19  
Old 11-30-2009, 10:04 PM
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Fast_Eddie Fast_Eddie is offline
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Well, I'm always up to talk about health care reform, but I'm a little disappointed that our friends on the right haven't come to talk about my assertion. Teabaggers are out protesting historically low tax rates and calling for rates that would almost certainly doom the American economy. Not only that, they are being led by people who know this to be the case and are lying to them. Finally, history has shown that Democrats have indeed taken the debt issue seriously when Republicans have not.
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  #20  
Old 11-30-2009, 10:14 PM
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The abuses in our MN Care program would make even your most liberal minded bleeding hearts snarl with anger. I am probably wrong about that but would like to think it would be the case. If people really knew about the abuses and the wasted hundreds of millions annually, their would be blood in the streets.

I don't need supporting documentation for that statement. My wife lives in the heart of the beast as lead nurse (RN) for a very large clinic/hospital.

She used to be very liberal in her politics, but the reality of it all has changed her opinions a tad. The truth of reality trumps blind ideology I guess.

RC
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