What difference does it really make?

[Charles]

Originally Posted by Boreas

Pete, do some investigation. No, I'm not talking about our "Christian Nation". I'm talking about radical militant & militaristic fundamentalists who have achieved places of influence in the AFA. There is systematic harassment of non-Christian personnel or personnel who aren't quite the right flavor of Christian. This is no secret. Just google it and you'll see. While you're at it, check out the White Supremacist program of infiltrating the military. These groups are actually telling their young members to join up so they can convert the armed forces into a modern day SS.

John

Well, I did Google it.

What I came up with is that there was some harassment of non christians at the AFA, but it was investigated, determined to be non systematic, and dealt with.

As far as white supremacists, there was a declassified FBI report which pointed out that a small number of WS in the military, but most of the trails on this subject led back to the SPLC.

I don't put a lot of stock in the SPLC.

Perhaps you're right, and the military is loaded with white christian skinhead types attempting to install their own covert SS.

I see it as more fear mongering from the left. I also suspect that both of us are a little correct, and a little incorrect on this matter.

IMHO, there are bad actors on both sides of the fence. The left has the ELF for one, and they appear to be more of a terrorist group as they are organized. A right wing nut with a gun who starts shooting people for no rational reason is not my idea of a terrorist. He's a wacko.

Just like the Unibomber was. Not so sure that he was left wing, but he for sure was a wacko.

Personally, I don't see the right wing, or the left wing as much of a problem.

Chas

[Charles]

Originally Posted by spasmo55

Paranoia strikes deep
Into your heart it will creep

Perhaps when you move from Cal to Maryland, you should drive and stop at some military bases along the way. I don't think you can find a more diverse group of people in the country.

The military may be the best place for the little "Whiteys", because when that black kid from Detroit, PR from NYC or "Beaner" from East LA, saves their ass in a fire fight, they will get "re-educated" in a way their parents will not be able to "spin".

Just my thoughts

After looking at the hash marks on your sleeve, I tend to hold a lot of regard for your opinion on this matter.

Chas

[d-ray657]

Originally Posted by Charles

Well, I did Google it.

What I came up with is that there was some harassment of non christians at the AFA, but it was investigated, determined to be non systematic, and dealt with.

As far as white supremacists, there was a declassified FBI report which pointed out that a small number of WS in the military, but most of the trails on this subject led back to the SPLC.

I don't put a lot of stock in the SPLC.

Perhaps you're right, and the military is loaded with white christian skinhead types attempting to install their own covert SS.

I see it as more fear mongering from the left. I also suspect that both of us are a little correct, and a little incorrect on this matter.

IMHO, there are bad actors on both sides of the fence. The left has the ELF for one, and they appear to be more of a terrorist group as they are organized. A right wing nut with a gun who starts shooting people for no rational reason is not my idea of a terrorist. He's a wacko.

Just like the Unibomber was. Not so sure that he was left wing, but he for sure was a wacko.

Personally, I don't see the right wing, or the left wing as much of a problem.

Chas

It shouldn't have been surprising that the Bush administration would select investigators who are sympathetic with the evangelical mission of the Air Force officers to conduct the investigation. For more perspective here is a report from a career Air Force officer, with 30 years of service, complete with citations to other sources. http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/...r_from_within/

I would not be surprised for members of the armed services to enjoy substantial racial diversity on the bases. The military is now an opportunity for employment for the economically disadvantaged, and one would expect to find diversity among those persons. I suspect, however, that the AFA is not quite as racially diverse as the enlisted population of the military.

Moreover, the issue at the Academy did not seem to be racial discrimination, but religious discrimination, and an open use of an elite academy for proslytising a particular sect of religion that appears to be just as religiously intolerant as the Taliban.

The frightening thing about the radicals in the middle east is that the demand of fundamentalist Islam in connection with control of the forces of the government leaves little room for accomodation of opposing views or for democracy. I would be be heartbroken, and possibly dead, if the same type of fundamentalism were to take over control of the U.S. government.

Regards,

D-Ray

Here is another analysis from a source that could hardly be considered left wing, BNET, which describes itself as "the go to place for management."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...g=content;col1

[Boreas]

Originally Posted by Charles

Well, I did Google it.

What I came up with is that there was some harassment of non christians at the AFA, but it was investigated, determined to be non systematic, and dealt with.

Then you saw that the way the AFA has chosen to deal with the situation is by addressing specific complaints when and as they arise and not by promulgating policies and regulations that put a stop to the practice.

As far as white supremacists, there was a declassified FBI report which pointed out that a small number of WS in the military, but most of the trails on this subject led back to the SPLC.

There's also newer information released by DHS. This was released during the Obama administration so the Right jumped all over it. The trouble is the report was commissioned, and the investigation was conducted, during the Bush Administration.

I don't put a lot of stock in the SPLC.

How come?

Perhaps you're right, and the military is loaded with white christian skinhead types attempting to install their own covert SS.

I'm not comfortable with your blending what I see as two separate subcultures within the military into one. There are the Radical Christanists I spoke of in the AFA, though they exist elsewhere in the military, and distinct from them are the skinheads who are being steered into the military by White Supremacist organizations.

I see it as more fear mongering from the left. I also suspect that both of us are a little correct, and a little incorrect on this matter.

I'm sure the truth lies somewhere in the space between our opinions.

IMHO, there are bad actors on both sides of the fence. The left has the ELF for one, and they appear to be more of a terrorist group as they are organized.

I don't have any use for the ELF. They're way beyond the pale as far as I'm concerned but their tactics are far less violent than those of the Right Wing extremists.

A right wing nut with a gun who starts shooting people for no rational reason is not my idea of a terrorist. He's a wacko.

Regardless of anything else, a terrorist is a terrorist if his primary goal is to, you know, terrorize society as a whole or a specific segment of it - for political or ideological purposes. Group affiliation of one kind or another, with its capacity for indoctrination, is typical but not necessary. That indoctrination can come from outside sources.

Recently we've seen acts of terrorism from people affiliated with groups, like the man in Kansas who assassinated Dr. Tiller, the man in Pittsburgh who killed the three policemen and the man who shot up the DC Holocaust Museum. Meanwhile, we've seen others who didn't belong to any radical organizations, like the man in Tennessee who killed those people in a Unitarian church who were inspired to commit their acts of terrorism by the writings and speech of people like Glenn Beck, Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, Bernard Goldberg and others.

Just like the Unibomber was. Not so sure that he was left wing, but he for sure was a wacko.

I don't think Ted Kaczynski had a particular ideology and I don't think he had a desire to terrorize. He just had his list of people he wanted gone.

Personally, I don't see the right wing, or the left wing as much of a problem.

Chas

Homeland Security sees both as a problem. They know a hell of a lot more about it than I do but I hope you're right.

John

[noonereal]

Originally Posted by Charles

I see it as more fear mongering from the left. s

OMG, the left plays to fear do they?

Come on, you own this approach lock stock and barrel.

[piece-itpete]

If the best Air Force in the world is Christian (of course it is, like our military has always been), I think that says something about Christians.

Pete

[d-ray657]

Originally Posted by piece-itpete

If the best Air Force in the world is Christian (of course it is, like our military has always been), I think that says something about Christians.

Pete

Nobody takes issue with the proposition that the people of this country are mainly Christian. The issue is when any government institution demands not only Christianity, but the right flavor of Christianity. When that institution has control of rockets and bombs, their brand of evangalism carries unwarranted influence.

Regards,

D-Ray

[merrylander]

Hmm? If they are the best in the world how come they bombed our allies in Iraq?

[spasmo55]

Originally Posted by Boreas

I'm a vet, was in the infantry. During my time in the service it was very diverse (because of the draft). I learned a lot about other people then and came away from the experience the liberal you see before you today. The sad part is I know a lot of people who left that experience more confirmed in their hatreds and prejudices than they were when they went in.

Today, in the era of the all volunteer military, there is far less cultural diversity. Yes, all races are represented but not all social classes. You don't really see many people from the upper tiers of society. That's what happens when you make military service an economic choice instead of an obligation.

And I'll bet you didn't try to verify the truth of what I said either.

John

Well Brother, (I say that because we both have that 1st Blue Cord stashed away in the closet)

I think what you witnessed was more a result of the on-going civil rights actions and the guilt this country was feeling over Viet-Nam, particularly the disparity in minority numbers serving in that conflict.

My experiances living in 30 man bays or old "woodies", was just the opposite as we were forced to learn to live with each other and function as a team. You had to give respect to be respected and living that close you could not help but learn about each other as men and you soon realized just how "equal" you were.

As far as the upper tiers of society serving, I'm not sure how far up you want to go, but you do remember the process to go to the academies and become a "RING Knocker", yes? Other than an occassional token, I am not sure many come from down here in the blue collar trenches, but I do not know the numbers, only the "Ring Knockers" I served under.

As far as the AFA and the christian right, I find that less threatening to my existence than I do the "Far Left" infiltrating our secondary education system and churning out liberal lawyers and other educated "leaders of tomorrow" by the bucketload, but that is just me I guess.

Verifying what you said, well if I dig enough I can verify it as truth or lie, dependent upon the sources I choose to accept. I prefer to accept it as an opinion of a fellow citizen, and weigh it according to my opinion of your intellect. Whether it is true or not, you beleave it to be true, and if I respect your opinion, then I must give it consideration.

As condescending as that may sound, it is the very reason that I joined this forum, to educate myself through fellow citizens.

[Charles]

Originally Posted by spasmo55

Well Brother, (I say that because we both have that 1st Blue Cord stashed away in the closet)

I think what you witnessed was more a result of the on-going civil rights actions and the guilt this country was feeling over Viet-Nam, particularly the disparity in minority numbers serving in that conflict.

My experiances living in 30 man bays or old "woodies", was just the opposite as we were forced to learn to live with each other and function as a team. You had to give respect to be respected and living that close you could not help but learn about each other as men and you soon realized just how "equal" you were.

As far as the upper tiers of society serving, I'm not sure how far up you want to go, but you do remember the process to go to the academies and become a "RING Knocker", yes? Other than an occassional token, I am not sure many come from down here in the blue collar trenches, but I do not know the numbers, only the "Ring Knockers" I served under.

As far as the AFA and the christian right, I find that less threatening to my existence than I do the "Far Left" infiltrating our secondary education system and churning out liberal lawyers and other educated "leaders of tomorrow" by the bucketload, but that is just me I guess.

Verifying what you said, well if I dig enough I can verify it as truth or lie, dependent upon the sources I choose to accept. I prefer to accept it as an opinion of a fellow citizen, and weigh it according to my opinion of your intellect. Whether it is true or not, you beleave it to be true, and if I respect your opinion, then I must give it consideration.

As condescending as that may sound, it is the very reason that I joined this forum, to educate myself through fellow citizens.

Well, 55, have you learned anything new...or simply confirmed your suspicions??????

Chas