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  #441  
Old 07-25-2014, 09:47 PM
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finnbow finnbow is offline
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As long as Hamas has Abbas tied up like a puppet on a string, what point is there in negotiating with the Palstinian Authority? Hell, if Israel takes out Hamas, and Abbas is serious about peace talks, it might hasten the peace process.
If I believed that Israel could completely eradicate Hamas without killing thousands of innocents, I might feel differently. I don't. The situation is intractable.
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  #442  
Old 07-25-2014, 10:40 PM
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What is this Argentina crap?
What crap?
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  #443  
Old 07-25-2014, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by finnbow View Post
If I believed that Israel could completely eradicate Hamas without killing thousands of innocents, I might feel differently. I don't. The situation is intractable.
What's intractable to me is the stubborn refusal to see that groups like Hamas target civilians as part of their core offensive strategy, and use civilians as human shields by staging operations inside homes, neighborhoods, mosques, etc. Yet it's Israel that takes the wrap for too many civilian casualties during their offensives.
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  #444  
Old 07-26-2014, 12:25 AM
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Rap not wrap.

As if there's anywhere in Gaza that isn't a neighborhood. The place is packed.

Look, I get it that the Israelis don't like the Hamas guys, for good enough reasons. Hammas is their enemy. They hate Israelis, they kill Israelis, they would love to wipe out Israel.

Why don't you get that Hamas hates Israelis for good enough reasons? Israelis hate them, Israelis kill them, Israelis would love to wipe out Hamas (like you would).

As long as these guys hate each other, this will go on. And here's the kicker--both governments want it to. Hamas has little basis for power, if they aren't 'the guys who fight Israel.' And the Likud government stays in power by being 'the guys who fight Hamas.' Really, they sustain each other.
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  #445  
Old 07-26-2014, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by donquixote99 View Post
Rap not wrap.

As if there's anywhere in Gaza that isn't a neighborhood. The place is packed.

Look, I get it that the Israelis don't like the Hamas guys, for good enough reasons. Hammas is their enemy. They hate Israelis, they kill Israelis, they would love to wipe out Israel.

Why don't you get that Hamas hates Israelis for good enough reasons? Israelis hate them, Israelis kill them, Israelis would love to wipe out Hamas (like you would).

As long as these guys hate each other, this will go on. And here's the kicker--both governments want it to. Hamas has little basis for power, if they aren't 'the guys who fight Israel.' And the Likud government stays in power by being 'the guys who fight Hamas.' Really, they sustain each other.
You've stated earlier that if the two sides would just engage in diplomacy than a resolution might be found. That's rather a simplistic view IMHO. What evidence is there that negotiations in this case are the right solution? Is 60 years of negotiations not enough evidence that diplomacy has been tried and failed?

Folks on the left are always whining about how our foreign policy is - in that region - "all about oil." Well, frankly, one of the reasons that we try to keep the Israelis at bay is to avoid volatility on oil prices. Pretty lousy reason to artificially prolong a conflict, IMHO.

And no, both governments DON'T want the conflict to continue. That's over-the-top cynicism IMHO. You keep forgetting about the history of this, including (I'll say it again) the Camp David summit in 2000 where Arafat could have had everything he said he wanted. The issue no that both sides want the conflict to continue. The issue is that both sides will never give the other side what they want: Israel will never voluntarily leave the Middle East, and Hamas will never recognize Israel's right to exist.
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  #446  
Old 07-26-2014, 07:04 AM
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Dondilion Dondilion is offline
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What crap?
Argentina default ads.
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  #447  
Old 07-26-2014, 07:21 AM
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finnbow finnbow is offline
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Originally Posted by whell View Post
What's intractable to me is the stubborn refusal to see that groups like Hamas target civilians as part of their core offensive strategy, and use civilians as human shields by staging operations inside homes, neighborhoods, mosques, etc. Yet it's Israel that takes the wrap for too many civilian casualties during their offensives.
I'm not so sure that the above pertains to the recently destroyed school. Its location, and that of 3 other schools housing the displaced, were provided by the UN to Israel on numerous occasions, as recently as the morning of the attack.

Moreover, criticizing Hamas' tactics is a red herring to avoid discussion of the roots of the ongoing conflict - Israeli's occupation of the West Bank and siege of Gaza.

Israel itself has lots of unsavory tactics/practices, starting with the continuation of their illegal settlements in the West Bank and their collective punishment practices (arresting 300-400 people and destroying a bunch of homes in the West Bank after the recent murders of the 3 teens). There's plenty of blame to go around in this conflict and you seem absolutely unable/unwilling to recognize Israeli's transgressions.
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  #448  
Old 07-26-2014, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by whell View Post
And no, both governments DON'T want the conflict to continue. That's over-the-top cynicism IMHO. You keep forgetting about the history of this, including (I'll say it again) the Camp David summit in 2000 where Arafat could have had everything he said he wanted. The issue no that both sides want the conflict to continue. The issue is that both sides will never give the other side what they want: Israel will never voluntarily leave the Middle East, and Hamas will never recognize Israel's right to exist.
The hang-up in Camp David was the "right of return," though it may have been used by Arafat as a red herring to avoid any agreement. The truth about the 2000 summit is a bit more complex than you assert.

FWIW, I think Abbas is more willing to reach some sort of agreement, but Bibi cut him off at the knees by his overreaction in this latest conflict.
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Last edited by finnbow; 07-26-2014 at 07:44 AM.
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  #449  
Old 07-26-2014, 07:31 AM
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BlueStreak BlueStreak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finnbow View Post
Bibi's recent adventure succeeded in strengthening Hamas and weakening Abbas (Fatah), the only person with whom he could have negotiated (who had just recently subjugated Hamas before Bibi fucked things up). Make no mistake, Israel has no interest in doing anything other than taking complete control of any relatively open land in the West Bank leaving only urbanized ghettos in places like Ramallah and Hebron (and Gaza, of course).
What, these Abbas?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFrGuyw1V8s



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  #450  
Old 07-26-2014, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by whell View Post
What's intractable to me is the stubborn refusal to see that groups like Hamas target civilians as part of their core offensive strategy, and use civilians as human shields by staging operations inside homes, neighborhoods, mosques, etc. Yet it's Israel that takes the wrap for too many civilian casualties during their offensives.
It's the premise of Israels existence that is an absurd farce. They never had any right to be there in the first place and they certainly have no right to be bullying people around, corralling them into reservations like cattle, now.

That's what you really don't get.

Just who do those sanctimonious assholes think they are Mike? Chosen by God, or something?

Dave
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