Cooking the Books -- Public School Style...

[finnbow]

As Rob (Merrylander) said, we're fortunate to live in an area with some of the best public schools in the nation. They give the very best private schools a run for their money.

That said, the age old adage "what gets measured gets managed" is the obvious source of the problems with the ridiculous "No Child" law. Whoever thought that schools wouldn't simply "teach to the test" or outright cheat are simply nuts.

[finnbow]

Originally Posted by finnbow

That said, the age old adage "what gets measured gets managed" is the obvious source of the problems with the ridiculous "No Child" law. Whoever thought that schools wouldn't simply "teach to the test" or outright cheat are simply nuts.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...tLI_story.html

Whaddya know?

[bhunter]

Originally Posted by finnbow

http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...tLI_story.html

Whaddya know?

Gee, After reading that article, I feel like joining the teachers union. Objective measures are the only criteria to get some idea of teacher performance. Why do you think University matriculates need so much remedial work? I'd suggest it's a failure caused by most, not all, teachers and their administrators. Spending has dramatically increased for education and yet the results have declined. Some children do need to be left behind.

The article attempts to place blame on the testing requirement and not on the failure and actions of the teachers. That's pure BS. Given any criteria, there will be a certain percentage of people that will cheat. Teaching to the test as something inherently bad only means that the test is not adequate. I would think that the objective of education is to be able to answer the questions on such a test, and thus, good teaching, teaching to the test, ought do exactly that. How else does one tell whether a student is meeting a minimum standard? Teacher evaluations have the exact same problem, namely, some might cheat. Standardized test have the benefit of revealing teaching by statistical analysis and other techniques that can be employed. Further, a teacher caught cheating ought be terminated immediately and forfeiture of all benefits.

[tybrad]

Originally Posted by bhunter

Gee, After reading that article, I feel like joining the teachers union. Objective measures are the only criteria to get some idea of teacher performance. Why do you think University matriculates need so much remedial work? I'd suggest it's a failure caused by most, not all, teachers and their administrators. Spending has dramatically increased for education and yet the results have declined. Some children do need to be left behind.

The article attempts to place blame on the testing requirement and not on the failure and actions of the teachers. That's pure BS. Given any criteria, there will be a certain percentage of people that will cheat. Teaching to the test as something inherently bad only means that the test is not adequate. I would think that the objective of education is to be able to answer the questions on such a test, and thus, good teaching, teaching to the test, ought do exactly that. How else does one tell whether a student is meeting a minimum standard? Teacher evaluations have the exact same problem, namely, some might cheat. Standardized test have the benefit of revealing teaching by statistical analysis and other techniques that can be employed. Further, a teacher caught cheating ought be terminated immediately and forfeiture of all benefits.

What I put in bold... that right there is NOT teaching or educating; it's training, and is a piss-poor thing to have to do to young adults. The implicitly mandated (Feds, on down) need for teaching to tests is precisely what has taken the fun, the wonder, and the education out of education. You just would not believe the completely scripted, no-time-to-explore-a-student's-question that may take the lesson off of its pre-described path situation in biology. No time for spontaneity; see something related in the news? Can't explore it... that was yesterday's lesson, and that is a TRAVESTY. And all of the subject tested areas are the same way- they are dry, delivered matter-of-factly, tested in a factual regurgitative way, and is uninteresting for students. When/if that reaches my subject, I'm gone. I pray that it does not.

It's really no wonder about where it has gone since the 80's- student worlds are expanding, and what teachers can do in education is narrowing. Youtube is blocked, legit sites are blocked with the clumsy, draconian filtering software that is in place. Minimum standards on these sorts of tests (I am speaking from the Maryland HSA perspective); a mile wide, 1/2 inch deep? Rote learning- the lowest/most primitive form of learning? Is that what really ought to be going on? By the time students get to HS, it should be about thinking, problem-solving, and synthesis to prepare for college, trade (God forbid, in the atmosphere of education today!), and for informed and productive citizenship. C'mon guys...

Tyler

[merrylander]

Originally Posted by tybrad

What I put in bold... that is NOT teaching; it's training. The apparently mandated (Feds, on down) need for teaching to tests is precisely what has taken the fun, the wonder, and the education out of education.

Tyler

Exactly, while there are some items everyone should leave school with neatly tucked into their memory, the must important thing they must leave with is the desire to know more. Education does not stop at the school/university door. With luck it will only stop when I am on the wrong side of the grass.

[bhunter]

Originally Posted by tybrad

It's really no wonder about where it has gone since the 80's- student worlds are expanding, and what teachers can do in education is narrowing. Youtube is blocked, legit sites are blocked with the clumsy, draconian filtering software that is in place. Minimum standards on these sorts of tests (I am speaking from the Maryland HSA perspective); a mile wide, 1/2 inch deep? Rote learning- the lowest/most primitive form of learning? Is that what really ought to be going on? By the time students get to HS, it should be about thinking, problem-solving, and synthesis to prepare for college, trade, and for informed and productive citizenship. C'mon guys...

Tyler

I agree with your position; however, there still needs to be a minimum level of basic knowledge that can be objectively measured. There still needs to be some amount of drudgery in the learning process. For example, doing derivations and proofs was much more fun and a better learning experience than memorizing equations on flashcards; however, on that physics exam it was nice to be able to recall equations. My point is that there is a need for both rote and inculcating a desire for learning. That said, there are too many pupils that will fail to have a desire to learn and these ought be separated from those that have such a desire. I'd also argue that currently too many questionable subjects are being taught for largely political reasons.

How you manage to teach students to be able to answer questions on a standardized test ought be up to the teacher. The example questions I've seen tend to be ridiculously basic, and as such, ought be easily answered but aren't. Why such difficulty? Are the students that bad? The test too difficult? The teaching methods ineffective? How do you propose measuring teacher effectiveness and student knowledge without standardized tests?


Oh, remember you're competing against pop culture and the Hollywood and Madison Avenue crowd for the atttention of the students. The deck seems stacked given the lack of parental discipline and "anything goes" culture we now inhabit.

[flacaltenn]

I'm just as appalled as BHunter is that this fuss is over MINIMUM expected standards.. It's NOT anything like what the behavioural shrink in the WPost article equates to measuring an executives' "ROI on advertising". It's more like judging him being capable of CALCULATING the ROI..

The teachers cooking the books are doing so BECAUSE too many of their students can't pass MINIMUM competency tests in Reading, Writing, Math and Social Studies. We're not even CLOSE to AP classes or ANY form of biology, chemistry, physics, or world lit.. More than 30% of our kids are mathematically and fundamentally illiterate in the 8th grade. And that precludes them from even participating in those advanced academic endevours. (Is that gonna be the expectation?) If so -- let's have a beer and call it quits.

Now realizing that I'm NOT convinced that these tests should be the SOLE determinant of funding or an alternate form of teacher evaluation -- They SHOULD be a statistical point in space for the FEDERAL Dept of Ed to determine how to allocate THEIR resources.. Without that kind of metric -- we should just fold up that whole endevour and their $100K+ salaries and block grant the money.. Sell the very building. Because they cannot BLINDLY solve any problems without first measuring the problems.

Minimum standards on these sorts of tests (I am speaking from the Maryland HSA perspective); a mile wide, 1/2 inch deep? Rote learning- the lowest/most primitive form of learning? Is that what really ought to be going on? By the time students get to HS, it should be about thinking, problem-solving, and synthesis to prepare for college, trade, and for informed and productive citizenship. C'mon guys...

We're not talking about YOUR physics kids. We're not even talking about High School. At that point, those 30% who have been underserved are already on a path to the massive drop-out rate we also experience. Even if they had a wonderful experience with gradeless, testless, group hug assignment type K-12. And YES, the PUBLIC expectation is that they SHOULD have a minimum competency at the 8th grade or the rest of their public schooling experience is written on the wall (pretty much) BEFORE they get to high school.

You need to look at the actual type of test content that we're discussing here. "wrote knowledge"?? Heck yes.. It's the basis of being able to balance a checkbook, read a contract, or be qualified to participate in a Democracy. These are NOT things that Google when you need them..

Indicting the tests are tantamount to HIDING the problems so that the public won't attempt to draw irrational conclusions about the teaching profession in general or the efficacy of throwing money blindly at the lower 30%. We CAN do better if we honestly appraised the situation.. Not hide it.

I've seen too many slick academic experiments foisted on the K-12 public schools in my lifetime.. From the "whole language -- kill phonics", to "new math" to "group assignments" to gradeless evaluations done en masse with dismal, mostly destructive results. ALL THAT experimentation done on our kids and the teaching leadership of K-12 has the nerve to whine about NAEP testing as being "distracting"????? They tease gullible parents with slick marketing ploys like a 5-6th grade "Journalism Magnet School" that affluent parents stampede to like K-Mart lemmings -- but can't fathom why jonny needs to be able to calculate the area of a rectangle or find a verb in a sentence structure??

You C'mon TyBrad..

[tybrad]

Originally Posted by flacaltenn

I've seen too many slick academic experiments foisted on the K-12 public schools in my lifetime.. From the "whole language -- kill phonics", to "new math" to "group assignments" to gradeless evaluations done en masse with dismal, mostly destructive results. ALL THAT experimentation done on our kids and the teaching leadership of K-12 has the nerve to whine about NAEP testing as being "distracting"????? They tease gullible parents with slick marketing ploys like a 5-6th grade "Journalism Magnet School" that affluent parents stampede to like K-Mart lemmings -- but can't fathom why jonny needs to be able to calculate the area of a rectangle or find a verb in a sentence structure??

Uhhh... don't lay that one on teachers' doorsteps. Those initiatives were from teachers being manhandled by administrators and politicians.

I have already, "for the record", previously stated my stance on something to hold teachers accountable, and have suggested one. What is going on is not it... CLEARLY. No one wants to take a look at the Far East to see how it does work because of our screwed-up social life, and our opinions (and dollars) on what is important to us. And their systems work because teachers are treated with professionalism, hired carefully, placed carefully, have the resources and home backing, and will t-r-a-c-k. Why has vocational training in K-12 situation faded?

Return rolled eyes...

Tyler